Have you guys heard of The Pentecostal Mission (TPM)? I’m sure you must have heard some half-baked guys singing loudly, off-tune and with reverberations of “Hallelluiah” and “Praise the Lord” every five minutes late into the night in your neighbourhood. Well these guys are part of the “Halleluiah goshti” or Pentecostals.
The strong, fanatical and only true followers of Christ are the TPM members.
The TPM members feel that they are unlike the lilies of the valley, which neither spin nor toil and let their heavenly father take care of them. Either these guys live in morbid fear of hell or an intense longing for heaven: Otherwise I find it hard to interpret their fanatical devotion to misinterpreting the Bible.Some of the things that are likely to get the goat of non-believers (in their language this word includes the poor, deluded Christians who are not part of their denomination as well):
*The women do not preach in church or elsewhere. You see Paul said women were to be silent in church, so the decree: No woman pastors needed. For was not Eve, the first sinner who enticed Adam to sin, a woman? Anyway these worthy disciples of Apostle Paul (who did not get married) and Apostle Peter (who found the ministry more interesting than the cares of domestic life) do not let women preach or talk in church. A woman’s duty is to listen to the men in the church, for are not men the heads of the family like Christ is the head of the church? I wonder how they always manage to come up with verses that suit their convenience. When I quote the Bible that “men and women are equal in the eyes of God,” I’m the “devil quoting the scriptures.”
*The brothers and sisters in the church lead a life more austere and Augustine than the Trappisian monks. Yup! No coloured uniforms. Plain white robes and even plainer food is the order of the day for the full-time workers of this church. I wonder how they can forgive God for creating the bright-yellow of the daffodils, the azure of the violets or the dark reds of the geraniums? Or do they feel he was wasting his time by creating dye-producing plants like the Indigo? Even the lay people in the church come every Sunday to church dressed in white. If they associate white with purity is black the colour of the devil and the BMWs, which some of their chief pastors own, the machinations of the devil? >:)
*No medicines. Medicines are taboo, according to them for is not Christ the supreme healer? This is quite a horrific misinterpretation of the Bible. My first clash with ultra-Christianity came at the age of 8, when I was vacationing in Rameswaram. A worker at the Mission hospital told us a story of how their neighbour’s child died of typhoid, because the child Christian parents wanted divine healing. The little girl, had been extremely sick, but the parents refused to take the girl to a doctor. The worker told us how all the neighbours were planning to forcibly take the child to the hospital, when the child died. He told me, the worst blow, the parents had was when the pastor, told them that the child had died because they had doubted that God would heal the child. Later, on I heard more stories of how people had to have their legs amputated, their skins peppered with diseases, because they believed God would someday heal them. Even, when I was a god-fearing Christian, I viewed all this extreme distaste. Now that I’m out of the Christian fold, I can find similarities between this fanaticism and the fanaticism that leads people from other faiths to kill their own children as sacrifices at the altar of another God.*This church doesn’t believe in letting its members see the TV, hear ungodly music on the radio or read anything ungodly. Anything apart from the Bible and their monthly text of piety called The Pentecost is termed ungodly by these people, who are the self-proclaimed true-Christians.
*Another ridiculous thing is that they don’t believe in letting women wear jewels. Apparently men wearing Rolex watches and flaunting their Fords will not in anyway increase their vanity. But women, the avaricious creatures that they are, will go haywire at the sight of gold. I think all this idiocy stems from Paul’s saying that it is better that a woman adorns herself with good works, than with jewellery or braiding their hair. Well Paul said: Its better you do this than that, but The TPM interpretation: Women must not wear jewels. So if you see most Pentecostal woman in India have to forgo gold – a security and investment, as it increases their vanity. In foreign countries I’m sure this Pentecostal teaching is no hardship, but in India, with every other housewife being decked like a jewellery showroom, it must be a pretty hard cross for these women to b(w)ear. After years of staying in the TPM church, my grandma moved away. Now, she sees the pastors’ wives in more liberal Pentecostal churches wearing jewels and badly wants to wear jewels again, but doesn’t do so because she feels it will look ridiculous to resume wearing jewels at her age. Why all this deprivation? Why all the fuss? Wear jewels if you feel like it, since its normal in Indian society for women to wear jewels. Anyway if they are going to misread Paul’s statement like that, they must also wear their hair loose and never use hair clips, hair pins, barrettes, ribbons or braid their hair. For did not Paul say it is better for a woman to adorn herself with good works than wear JEWELS or BRAID her HAIR?
Error Regreted, Clarification: I had earlier made some references to the TPM’s history, it now appears that:
“Chief Pastor Alwin de Alwis was excommunicated by Pastor M. Daniel in France faith home on charges of sexual misbehavior. Pastor Alwin was subsequently forced out of CPM by Freddy Paul and other senior ministers. This took place in 1962/63.
Pastor Philip Chandapillai, Associate Chief Pastor, was assaulted by TPM believers at the Kottarakara, Kerala center faith home for changing the name from CPM to TPM. This took place in 1983/84.”
Author’s note: This post was written more than a year ago. There are some things in the post like “half-baked guys” & “Halleluiah goshti” that I wish I had not written now. Those words sound hasty & immature. I want to apologise if I have hurt the sentiments of TPM members. But I still stand by my doctrinal criticism of the church. I have also posted another article – in which I have recounted the history of the TPM as told to me by a current TPM member.
Jesus Christ will save you & your family.
Very soon you might pull down this post.
GOD BLESS YOU
God Bless you
May Lord open your eyes of understanding. Spend some more time reading and meditating on the word of God. Soon you will
regret for this unwarranted post.
God Bless you
Praise the lord
it is a great privilage to know the good news more in these last days before the Lord comes
please forward more Live movie CD / Dvds
Lesslie jokim.c
Hi Lessie,
I don’t get it. This post is more anti-religion than pro-religion, if you had read it closely, so what’s with the “Praise the Lord”?
Hi Premyz,
You said, “Jesus Christ will save you & your family.
Very soon you might pull down this post.
GOD BLESS YOU”
First, you make the assumption that I am not a Christian and neither is my family. While I’m an athiest and my blog reflects my views, please don’t make predictions that Christ, who was born 2,000 years ago, is very interested in saving me. And saving me from what? Cyclone, floods or hell-fire?
And my family members, who are devout, conservative Christians, would definitely feel offended by ur comment that “Jesus will save them.”
You also predict: “Very soon you might pull down the post.”
Can you please stop with the predictions?
And finally, the “God Bless you” is too smug for me too believe its sincerity
Hi Jacob,
You say, “May Lord open your eyes of understanding. Spend some more time reading and meditating on the word of God. Soon you will regret for this unwarranted post.
God Bless you”
First, I don’t believe in God and find your comment: “May Lord open your eyes of understanding” very patronising. Commenting on my blog on my capablities to understand is also plain rude.
Secondly, I don’t need your advise to “Spend some more time reading and meditating on the word of God,” as I did that for 20 years and found the Bible unjust, irrational and factually incorrect.
Thirdly, “Soon you will regret for this unwarranted post,” sounds like a threat. Is ur god going to do petty things like taking revenge on atheist bloggers for blogging? And also whether the post is “unwarrented” or not is a debatable issue.
And I don’t like the condescending tone, in which you & Premyz “God Bless me”
Why don’t we have a sensible debate? Are there are not such unfair practises being carried out in churches?
Can you only engage in name-calling? Can we not debate on the many things seriously wrong with the church?
Guys,
Calm down. everyone has their own rights to say what they like or what they feel. If you feel offended do reply in a kind manner , dont get angry with the person who has posted it. If you really disagree with her then try to prove her wrong by facts and not by anger. The questions posted by her in different posts make lot of sense, try to answerr that or please refrain from comments.
Rachel,
Well yes there are lot of malpractices in the church, well after all they are men and they are prone to mistakes , But for all of this dont get angry with GOD . I read in a previous post that you like the principles of Jesus , but donot beleive he is GOD. Well truly i tell you if you follow the teachings it is more than enough.
That is wat his intention was also , He never told them to spread the relegion , he just told them to spread the message, which has now been lost because the church does not stand together and fight within themselves.
Regards,
Stephen
The Pentecosal movements, when began to get popular
about 50 years back in India, they were tormented by the
mainline denominations, but the Pentecostal movement is the
fastest growing Christian denomination in the world. Among
the Pentecostal denominations, the Pentecostal Mission
(formerly known as the Ceylon Pentecostal Church) is perhaps
the most conservative and other mainline Pentecostal
denominations kept a distance. But I must say that the
Pentecostal Missions have a very solid and aggresive
evangelization drive and more people are added to the
Church. The Pentecostal Mission people have conducted
prayer meetings in front of our home, my dad’s business
because they were preaching the gospel to a crowd of
Hindus and Muslims. I am non-denominational in my mindset
but I will stand with any denomination, whether they are
Catholic or Pentecostal, if they present to the world that
Jesus is the saviour of the world. Even the hardcore atheist
will come across with reality of life, and naturally will call on
God. So, it is better to call on Him and find peace with Him
while we are healty and normal.
Hi Matthew,
Can u tell me what do u mean by adding more ppl to the church. Is it adding more strength to the Christian population? Or is it bringing more people into the teachings of christ?. The former is something the chuch is more interested in but the message of Jesus was clearly for the latter.
It is good when u say that u are non denominational in mindset, but unfortunately the church isnt’t.rt???
Regards,
Stephen
God bless u
wow!! you are so very very wrong and i feel very sorry for you. i am actually a minister in the church and am full of joy, grace and love. i do not wear “white” oopps, i’m wearing a black skirt. please find out why we wear white in India and other asian countires and realize that in america, the uk, canada and other places we wear “regular” western things. anyway!!! may God bless you, but please do not share false notions, though you sure are allowed to share your opinions as opinions. praying for you much, and remember, bitterness isn’t woth it no matter who its toward, keeping your heart is all the matter so that we all will be ready for his coming where, perfection in faith will matter much!!!!! by the way we don’t only believe in divine healing but in divine health as well….what a thought?!
Hi d.more,
I was referring to the custom of pastors in TPM churches wearing white. I am guessing you belong to some other pentecostal church…And also “black skirt”? Are you a woman pastor? If so, my congratulations. I feel the church needs more women doing its work (not just at home).
And as to bitterness, I think you mistake the point. And I’m suprised that people keep on telling me they’ll be praying for me. Honestly, do you guys include my name in your morning devotions? Or is it just that I’m the heathen/sinner and you out of Christian condescension are displaying your holier-than-thou attitude?
Hi ther…..it ws rather kind of very awkward 2 find sumone so boldly an confidently criticizing a church which has quite a lot of believers,who r happy and contented within its fold. Luk, I’m nt responding 2 u to prove or challenge u…I’m sure u hav a gud reason 4 expressin ur thots…I mus say I appreciate ur frankness.
As a member of tis church, I rather respect the doctrines meted out…Christ did nt cum 2 tis wrld 2 create a denomination or an establishment….He jus wanted tat ppl b saved frm the viles of the devil…u kno abt the part u said abt being afraid of hell….Yes,tats a very gud reason to follow God…who wud want 2 be in burnin fire an brimstone???my neighbour who is an atheist says she wud rather go to hell because ther shud be sumone ther!!!
Basically the church doz nt consist of only rich members…..i thnk ther r more poor ppl as believers….believe me,I havent seen anyone being abandoned jus bcos they r poor…if tat is wat u mean…
Ther r women pastors in TPM….one of the local churches in kerala had a very efficient lady leader….also I hav met sum of the women pastors frm abroad ….in India ,tis kind of worship set is followed becos its the culture…tat dos nt mean men and women r unequal…I don’t think any of the ministers of God(the ladies I mean),complain abt such a set up.
Ok the color part…generally white is symbolic of purity….tat dos nt mean thos who wear white r pure!!!!after all man has his natural faults…..if he wer perfect ther wud b no need of a God in this wrld!!!!then the whole pt of worship wud b lopsided..its nt the spiritual wrld alone tat denotes black as evil…I am a student of literature and I hav seen quite a lot of examples enuf!…its jus tat ther is sumthin tat the color white dos 2 man…I’m sure u hav hrd of hw the colors affect the emotional state of man….the uniformity is becos,wen ur part of a grp,u shud hav sum sort of coordination,jus like in schools,the army…
Then the part abt the plain fud..psychologists hav said tat man becums more fleshly accelerated wen he uses meat an stuff….an very healthy wen eating the vegetables….in the earlier times ther ws less money an more poverty….bt as time went by God blessed the church and gave increase….the bad part is tat ppl who wer once spiritual got involved in materiality and thus went away frm God……tis is nt abt all bt sum…comeon,evry denominations hav such problems…
Abt Divine Healing,which is one of the doctrines of the church…Rachel,tis is nt sumthin tat cn b forced upon anyone!!!i’m sorry 2 find the pastor who presided the funeral service said such an unholy statement which I too find very shockin…..tat is nt the way the church has really explained it….the concept has nt been pointed out as such in the bible…it begins frm old testament onwards…u kno the bible so much more than me….i’ve jus been reading it 4 6-7yrs….ju mus hav read frm exodus abt hw God promised 2 bless the ppl by takin away diseases…..it is the individual faith of a person…I believe tat if God cud so beautifully craft me ,giv me life,giv me tis wrld 2 live,why cannot He cure me?nobody frm tis church hav I hrd preachin tat tos who dun t practice divine healin wud go to hell….if a family wishes 2 practice divine healin then I feel others shud rather respect their rights than interfere …..it is nt a will suicide….
Ok the media,the ungodly music….wud u rather see all the crime and violence dun in the media or prevent ppl especially youngsters so tat they cn lead a safe life?is ther an explanation 4 all tat is goin on in the wrld 2day?its 4 all 2 see……the cinema model violence!the music….the wrds r first of all in sum songs absolute nonsense….also they make a person turn 2 unwanted ways….is ther any sort of problem in preaching against such useless things which can lead evn gud ppl into dirty pool?
The othr thing is jewellery….wen I came 2 tis church ,I dint hav anybody forcing me 2 let go of my jewellery…infact I wore it 4 abt 1yr or so.who evr wants 2 resort 2 such things.its fine….it is part of individual right…..ther is no part in the tpm doctrine tat says women shud nt wear jewels…my aunt who is a believer stil wears gold becos her husband dos nt want her 2 remove it……yet she is in tis church…the hair and stuff…2days fashion is loose hair in diff styles…so if such a custom ws followed in the church ,wudnt ppl criticize and say”tos TPM fools preach simple life,an luk @ their ladies!”?
See Rachel,u know wat the problem with the wrld is?instead of seein the gud, ppl try 2 find the bad. Criticizing wil nt get anyone anywer….why du u think ther is racial discrimination?the same fault of criticism and satire.it is generally said-evn if ther r 99 gud pts in a man,ppl wil try 2 bring up and scrutinize the bad which mite b only 1.
Tpm is nt a religious denomination or establishment which tortures ppl:it is rather a way 2 lead ppl 2 God.why luk @ the ppl?Follow God…..bcos He alone is perfect….
U find the bible unrealistic which is rather a sorry fact becos the reality is tat it is true…u mite ask me hw am sure of it…ther again is tat mysterious play called ‘faith.’ Faith cannot b forced upon anyone,it is the wrkin of the holy spirit…records in Jerusalem an such places hav proof of the fact tat a certain Jesus ws crucified and many wondrous things happened which obviously no one can deny….jus think abt any God who wud dare 2 sacrifice His only Son 4 a stiff necked race!
Praisin God is nt jus a ritual of TPm bt common 2 all denominations……besides wat harm dos it do 2 us 2 praise the creator of the whole universe?nobody is callin u a sinner or heathen….u an I r equally sinners……if no devil existed,wat is the explanation 4 all the basic evil in us?usually atheists say everythin jus existed!tat is quite unreasonabl bcos ther is always a cause an effect ….evn the tiniest particle hs 2 b created….
I don’t kno hw far I’ve convinced u. u mite stil find sum pts lackin in my response…tis is my faith…very simple.i don’t go lukin 4 deeper truths.basic knowledge abt God is more than enuf…..jus bcos ur granma moved away frm Tpm dos nt mean u hav 2 find fault with tis church(hey no offense meant)….ther r always 2 sides 2 evrythin….one cannot always b perfect…
I am nt telling u 2 read the bible or tryin 2 find fault with u.pls don’t misunderstand….take care.
hey rachel…
was so intrested reading your blog…
YOUR ideas abt things!! life!! pratices!!! seem very very practical and thats like……….great!!! hats off!!!
but guess the part where you challenge GOD is quite confusing..!! you seem to talk from a single perspective!! Jesus is defintely not about wat one group says.. or believes !
After seein tat you ve been able to quote so many verses from the WORD.. why din this strike you to say.. Jesus says come as you are!!!
if you ended up being an “athetist”after being born in a christian family.. you must have your reasons for it!! and if……………….. i say IF it was because you saw the extremes then guess its TIME you reconsider!!!
Hi Rachel Paul & Chweety,
Thanks for the gracious comments. I am just in the middle of a mad week and want to take time and think before responding to them.
Thanks again,
Rachel
your views were really interesting to read…..
every organization, political party, revolutionary movement has an armed group which swears and marches by the ideals of its institution and blazes a path for others to follow
TPM can be said as the sword’s edge of protestant Christianity,
just like military….order……. no questions asked….
you mentioned a range of thoughts followed in TPM… but they are the very ideals which has helped us grow this far,,, while other institutions are struggling before modern ideals……, sexual cases{roman catholics in US} women priests{church of England}…………..
my opinion is, gain some more experience on life …… then decide by yourself!
on the other side I appreciate the Vocabulary of your statements they show emotions and feelings in a very bold way.
Sister
Sister request you to go through the site http://www.rzim.com & http://www.cfcindia.com
I got the answer from these sites…
Calm down guys !…. Let us first examine ourselves before making comments on others !!
sister,
Pls don’t come to conclusions. Man is weak and imperfect which is why he needed a Saviour. So if you don’t need God then you must be a perfect person. But if you lack peace and love in your life pls turn to God. I have experienced God’s love in my life when I believed in His Son Jesus. My life has changed since then and am confident that He can change your life as well. Reg TPM pls don’t judge them if God has revealed some imperfection in them pls pray for them otherwise God has changed me alot through their teachings. Am no superhuman to certify them but God Himself proves to be with them by the kind of love they have towards God and fellow believers…. The same is also mentioned in epistle of john… The humility, holiness they teach and practice.. They might seem hard on doctrine but truly if you have the right spirit that would only enable you to get closer to God. May God change this website for the Glory of His name.
Hi Rachel,
I just found your blog . Regarding the way you mentioned Divine Healing I thought I should share my experience . I come from a family of 6 of which 3 are docters. Last year I had a small swallow in my right hand and the bone started thickening I was not able to move my fingers at one point of time . I never took medicine I just kept it in prayer . One day when I noticed it was gone completely .
Regards,
Arun
[…] to have stepped on too many toes in my previous posts. I have approved all comments received on TPM-The Pentecostal Mission . I am yet to reply to the thought-provoking comments of some of my readers. It was also quite […]
There is a verse in Bible “O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him”.
My dear Sister,
I was also born and brought up in a predominant TPM (CPM) family and later become an ardent atheist in my youth life.
One day in my life I happened to really taste him and found he is so good to me.
I hope you will also meet him at a cross road where you will have eternal solace and abode of peace.
The other apologist views like clothes; BMWs, medicines etc are so irrelevant for a real truth seeker. God bless you and your family.
Regards,
Kiran
Dear Sister,
I read all the coments posted on this site, i kindly request you not to pass on any further comments on the TPM CHURCH, U cant change any one from their own belief and faith. They might seem hard on doctrines but truly if you have the right spirit that would only enable you to get closer to God. God has changed me a lot through their teachings. I have experienced God’s love in my life. My life has changed since then and am confident that He can change your life as well.
1)JUDGE not, that ye be not judged.
2)Thou Hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brothers eye
3)But i say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgement, but who soever shall say thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
4) Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely for my sake.
GOD IS VERY MERCIFUL AND HE STILL LOVES YOU.
DONT WORRY SISTER WHAT EVER YOUR WOUNDS ARE GOD IS THERE TO HEAL THEM.
LOVE HIM, TRUST HIM AND LET YOUR LIPS CONTINUALLY PRAISE HIM
Regards,
Sandra
Hi Friends
IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO KNOW ABOUT THE FALSE DOCTRINES OF TPM (EX- CPM) PLEASE CONTACT:
susan.george2002@yahoo.com
1. THOUSANDS HAVE BEEN DELIVERED FROM THEIR IDOLATROUS ZEAL FOR TPM WORKERS.
2. THOUSANDS HAD THEIR CALLING FULFILLED AS A PRIEST AS PER 1 PETER 2:5,9 WHICH THE TPM WORKERS WERE DELIBERATLEY WORKING TO SUPPRESS.
3. JUST BEWARE OF TPM WHICH IS A WORKER-GLORIFYING CULT. THEY DO THIS BY DISTORTING THE SCRIPTURES.
4. JUST ALSO BEWARE THE WOLVES IN WHITE CLOTHING. THE TPM WOLVES ARE CONCERNED ABOUT SPREADING THEIR DENOMINATION AND IDENTITY RATHER THAN THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
GOD BLESS YOU AND OPEN YOUR EYES.
Greetings!
I was going thru your views..thought I shud share mine as well..
I was born in a Pentecostal family(not TPM) and didn’t wanted to be like my parents. I was adamant that I will seek the God who will really speak or let me know that He is a living God.
And Jesus talked to me one day..He told me that He is my friend…with whom I can share all my worries, troubles, disappointments, happiness…
Since then I’m very content in Jesus. Since you are born in a Christian family, I’m sure you will understand this.
Jesus asked His disciples to spread this message to world. The message of His Love for mankind, His understanding all human troubles, afflictions ….
He has done many miracles in my life..If I need something in my life I ask Jesus. I have faith in Him that He will fullfill that..
I will pray to God that this Jesus’ message of love, be spread in all the world..so that Satan can’t deceive people.
God bless you dear!
LIFE OF SIMPLICITY. WHAT DOES IT MEAN?
Frequently, Pentecostals use the word “simple-life” to justify certain of their practices. By “simple-life”, they mean the following:
• Wearing white saree, white dhoti, white shirt and white Jibba.
• Abstaining from jewels.
Interestingly, the Buddhists in the Indian sub-continent followed such practices and during the days of Jesus, the Pharisees had similar practices. Pastor Alwin and Paul were probably influenced by the abundance of Buddhists in Ceylon.
Thus by the above practices, the Buddhists and Pharisees brought spirituality to an “external” display.
WERE THESE PRACTICES OF PENTECOSTAL BELIEVERS “CONSISTENT” TO THEIR BELIEFS?
The Pentecostal believers who spoke about simplicity and abstained from jewels also did the following:
1. Got overseas jobs for better salary.
2. Had lakhs of money in their personal account.
3. Immigrated to modern countries for a better living.
4. Got the best education to earn a luxurious amount of money.
5. Purchased the best set of coat, suit, silk sarees and pullovers.
6. Built better houses with the best furnishing.
7. Ate the best food.
Moreover, even the TPM workers have many Millions in the TPM Trust! Land and buildings whose value alone amounts several Billions across the globe!! No more “faith for rice or jeerakam” needed. They have “servants” to wash, cook, massage the legs; their dwelling place has carpeted floors, western closets and toiletries; food includes Chicken-in-coconut-milk Kerala menu; They dress in Cambrique cotton jibbas and sarees; have cars with A/c; they use sunglasses, Singapore towels, VIP suitcases and bags, bathroom slippers, cots with cushion mattresses, fruit juice at regular intervals, regular laundry of curtains, Bed sheets and pillow covers, china dishes and cups, machines for Grinding, mixing and juice-making. The list could continue!
Not satisfied with the above, the TPM believers happily blame the non-TPM pastors of not living “simple” when they have failed to “see’ the above inconsistency!!!
WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY?
However, 1 Samuel 16:7 says, “But the LORD said to Samuel, “Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.”
The above verse sums up God’s nature. Moreover, God is unchanging in His nature. Even now, He looks at the heart and not the external appearance.
In total disregard to the above, even Christians who call themselves Pentecostals and anointed with the Holy Spirit have miserably chosen to “inconsistently” “display” their spirituality and righteousness externally rather than internally nurture the “priesthood calling” that God had given them.
NOW, TO WHOM WAS SIMPLICITY EXHORTED?
A) Firstly, the apostles exhorted the Christians to be simple as they were new in their faith and did not know how to handle prosperity. Those Christians were focusing & bragging about prosperity instead of the “crucified Christ” and thus ended up trusting prosperity and also ended up in sin.
Now, however, God has flooded the church with His knowledge. Thus, God primarily expects us to be strengthened “inside” rather than make an “inconsistent display” of “external piety”.
B) Secondly, simplicity is exhorted in the “evangelistic” context for both workers and believers. Thus, Paul says that we need to adjust our “external” practices, not in holiness, in order to bring unbelievers to salvation. This means eating and dressing, not immodestly, but similar to the unbeliever’s culture. For example, when sharing the gospel among Buddhist monks, refrain from jewels and when sharing the gospel among Hindus, do wear them. Eating pork when among the Chinese and refraining from, when among the Jews and Muslims. Being in a coat and suit when in the west and being in pants when evangelizing the Indians.
CONCLUSION:
1. Why not righteousness & religion be “internal” rather than be displayed on the external in an inconsistent manner?
2. Why not the preaching of the gospel be “externally” seen instead of a “show of piety”. Would the Pentecostals who are taught to listen to stories from pastors on Sundays understand this?
3. Why should “kootaaima” become an excuse to keep the believers as spiritual kids?
susan.george2002@yahoo.com
Hi Susan,
Greetings… You’ve really spent a good time gathering all those details and compiling it all together…
But did you read it again and think about it?? you keep talking like ‘external’ purity is sin… just because said God looks at your inner purity, doesn’t really mean you can shun all external purity… Then what about Paul and Peter advising you to put off outward adornment and be simple?? You can’t really be simple and humble in your heart with all outward adornment… “Face is the index of a mind”, remember?? Jesus too has said, what that is within a man’s heart comes out of him too… so what you ARE externally, it is the reflection of your inner man… I’m not saying here that everyone who wears white and simple dress is holy, but it’s not a sin… why look at the blacksliders and hypocrites while there are so many good people out there??
Every good institution has some sort of dress codes… Doctors and nurses wear only white, every school has it’s own uniform, every military service, every other institution of some service has it’s own dress code… so, why can’t TPM have it’s own??? Why are you questioning/Criticizing TPM???
Coming to your next argument, TPM believers are not TPM preachers… There are set of doctrines and not every man is perfect… People do their best to follow them… It’s between them and God… and excuse me, “Ate good food”???? is that a crime now in the city??? When did God (or any TPM doctrin, for the discussion’s sake) ever forbid you from have good food?? You eyes of understanding are so blurred (sorry, no offense intended), you don’t really think about what you are writing…
and thank God, “TPM workers have many Millions in the TPM Trust! Land and buildings whose value alone amounts several Billions across the globe!!”… Praise God, He has blessed the ministry… but you are right, it’s in the name of a trust… tell me if it’s in the name of the trust, how is an individual benefitted?? it’s for the church and not an individual worker… tell me one Faith home (Church of TPM) which is in TPM worker’s name?? Why do you begrudge God’s generosity???
And may be yes, some workers without proper understanding of their mission might use some luxuries… but doesn’t mean everybody does it… our Chief pastor, he does have a bathroom slippers but they are his only sandals…
again, coming to your external appearance, what you are talking here is about God given things..appearance, height, good looking, bad looking, whatever, are God given things and He doesn’t exactly care how you look for He created us all… but when we say of simplicity, it’s what we add to it…. You are not allowed to wear many types of dress in many school/colleges/offices, why??? It doesn’t befit the orgranization.. how much more is for the church of God??
NOW, TO WHOM WAS SIMPLICITY EXHORTED?
A) Yes, God has flooded the Church as a collective entity, with His knowledge, but what about an individual??? Does everyone soul know it?? Do you mean to say, once you gain the knowledge of Christ, who preached simplicity, you can go back and trust in your riches??? Again, God open your eyes!!! ‘Inconsistent Display’… yes it would be an inconsistent display of external adorment for inward holiness…
B)What is that you are trying to say here, I don’t really understand… Eating, what goes inside a man, has nothing to do with his spiritual life… that’s wat Paul has said and our Lord Jesus, too… but for adjusting with them, you can’t go to movie with your friend to convince him, you can’t drink with him to preach the gosple… same is in wearing jewels… if you are not steadfast in your own doctrines, people don’t even consider about our faith.. we need to mirror Christ to them and not mirror the people around to attract them…they have seen enough of themselves… show them Jesus, they will come running to Him…
CONCLUSION:
1. When people are too full of themselves, they consider it a shame to call themselves Christians and that’s why they don’t any part of them say they are Christians… That’s all these ‘say no to external holiness’ come from…
If you had put the question as, ‘Why not righteousness & religion be just “external” but be “internal” too’… that would have shown your interest in consistent display… but your question purely says that you don’t want to be known that you are Christian…
2. I didn’t understand your point…
3. You’ve forgotten the foundation principle of TPM, “We preach that we may present every man PERFECT in Christ Jesus”, not as kids, dear sister…
I have not written anything above to hurt you or to convince you or to profess ‘TPM is best’ or anthing of that sort…. As a member of the church, it’s my responsibility to stand on it’s behalf…
God bless you all!!
Susan, what is ur point exactly? I mean are u even a christian in the first place? Cos all i see you doing is spitting venom! Why are u so bothered bout who has how many slippers and who ate what for lunch! You are so lame. Grow up. No body is perfect and as christians every one is running their race…some may be pressing forward deligently some may have fallen asleep while some may be pulling their socks up and giving it another try even after slipping and falling many times. Thats how it is. It is God who will judge. To each his own. Why are you so bend on pointing fingers? Thats very easy to do u knw. Every one cn do that. Its nt difficult to make up faults even on a blameless person if you want to. So stop being so petty. Try doing something productive and positive instead.
Calvary greetings, Do you go into partnership with churches in foreign countries?
Heyy Rachel…. ur blog certainly is the truth coming from ur heart. I too felt very similar emotions when once I had went to a sunday service of my TPM relative. With a urban city life I’m coming from I too felt these people (wearing all white paticularly) very hypocritical. At that time I too felt these people were like pharisees in the gospel. I do remember my poor mom feelling very ashamed as her sarree was not a perfect white; it had blue flower print over it. (And at that time she stood out in the whole congregation). We were on a holiday and it didn’t made any sense travelling with all our wardrobe.
Anyways what i want to tell u is that, with all our objections as we feel in our mortal bodies God is with them as he’s with us. TPM have been instrumental in bringing people towards Jesus. It’s founder Ramankutty or Pastor Paul was a Hindu convert whose testimony itself speaks of marvellous works Jesus is doing in India. And so is the existence TPM.
You have ur objections to TPM. Fine. There are many other pentecostal sects who have greater associations with our lord spiritually and are strong in teaching the word of God; and which do not have stringent practices in matter of worship etc. Take care of what we speak, write; least it is held accountable against us in the day of our lord.
Instead of defaming TPM or any other God’s children through ur writings, may God use you to preach the gospel and to reach the unreached.
W’ll to share sum more thoughts for a beloved Atheist……
The religious man does good things out of fear of judgment.
That is how every false religion operates. They teach you to
be good, in order to avoid judgment and to be rewarded in
the next life! False Christianity preaches the same thing.
Where the primary motivation for our obeying God is the fear of being judged, there we have a false Christianity.
Jesus said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (Jn.14:15).
while you see the fear of the lord in us, in TPM, in any other pentecostal sects or in christianity itself; what you don’t see is the deep love and affection we have for Our Master, Our Lord, Our Saviour Jesus Christ.
if you don’t like the TPM so much, why don’t you suggest some ways they can improve, instead of talking so much bad things about their ways and practices?
Greetings in the name of our lord Jesus Christ,
As u all know we have come to the very last days.So satan has come with his full might against the truth.He is using many people to defame the truth and the true church[TPM].Let us therefore be vigilant to discern him and ask the lord to reveal the blessed truths in the Pentecostal doctrine.
Dear All
I was born in the (CPM) Pentecostal family. May God forgive me if i am against his words and will. I always come into the picture only if and when bible is misinterpreted or some speak against bible. I fight for the word of God. I am against denominations. When he appears, he not going to call people denomination wise. I read bible and follow bible only. TPM’s founder has taught something (Read a Book published by TPM on Pastor. Paul) which is not followed by TPM these days.
During 1994 when computer was sold in a big way and Software development trainings were given in many places by APTECH and NIIT. At this point in time TPM was against children or youths studying computer. Many reasons were given, one among them is Antichrist and his number 666. Many who did not do the course then will surely be suffering and cursing the ministry policies. Many parents denied there children from learning the same. But now same church is using computers for there day to day work. Photo graphs were not let to be taken, Video cameras were not let to be used but we could see some changes now. I don’t say that what they do is wrong but my only concern is why don’t they think before they could say no or yes to the technology so that the church will not end up being criticized. Using TV, Radio as media to reach the world faster is denied is what worrying me. TPM need not see the TV but why shouldn’t they take that medium to reach to those we cannot reach to. We cannot reach our to Muslim houses that easily. We cannot reach out to a man who is in a hotel with a strange female like this we have many to whom we cannot reach to. Has God forsaken those who are running a Christian channel. Eg: Blessing TV Allen Paul and his wife are spiritually far superiors, God has asked him to start a TV channel.
The problem with this church is that they say some think at one point of time and change it during later days (except for jewels and medicine). I still say it is a good church but for few important rules. There is a man of named Pastor. Manasseh who is doing the ministry according to bible (99%). Every one in the church know that many other brothers and pastors talk against him.
There are people in the church saying “if you sit on the chair Holy spirit will not come upon you”. During the Annual convention we can see a very big gathering. The people gathered behind cannot see the preacher and we cannot find the same presence which find in the front. We can see people talking and playing. To avoid this screens can be used as display, which will enable the people behind to see and hear the sermon. This technology too is seen as a not to be used one.
If X doctor can heal why should people go to the Y doctor. Most of the pastors are not powerful enough to heal the sick that is way people in the Pentecostal mission are seeking the literal Doctors for healing. We can see the Doctors who go to TPM giving suggestions (what to avoid what not to avoid) to the sick pastors. I heard Even blood is tested which a normal believer would not do as he is taught that way. My question here is why should they use Reading Glasses which is again a scientific invention, why shouldn’t they pray to God to heal their eyes. I have seen innocent kids dying without out medicine, this really does tarnish the precious name of our lord Jesus Christ. Jesus, when he was on this earth gave life to many (Talitha, the little girl, Lazarus…). A man of God who says no to medicine should be in a position to save/heal the life of his believer . We find a very little number of men of God.
I too have suffered during my childhood days. I was suffering from tooth ache and ended up developing a swelling and pus in it. I was prayed for healing for months together by the pastors and brothers. One day it busted and pus came out, but the pus did not stop for months though the swelling disappeared. I was attending school with cotton sticking to it. Our students were keeping away from me. When it became serious my father’s elder brother who too is a TPM believer rushed me to the hospital and under doctor’s advise removed the tooth. The very second the pus stopped. This incident has left behind a scar on my cheek which is very disturbing whenever I see the TPM sisters, pastors and brothers go to the dentist to remove there teeth and fix dentures. With this scar, officially, I am unable to confidently face a video camera or stand on a stage to speak.
The above is my Grievance and not to hurt anyone but people should think.
Regards
Simon
Hi Rachel
I have seen the blog about Pentecostal Mission and everywhere you mentioned why not women given preference and why not they preach and why they are quiet but if you have read bible for 20 years and if you know each and everything then you should understand that including men and women the whole church is called the bridegroom to the god and there is no point of significance for any humanbeing and here only god has the point of significance
stop these arguments and try to seek GOD with fear
don’t spread false comments and invite trouble to ur life
GOD is mercifull and GOOD for all who seek HIM with whole heart
CAN A CHRISTIAN WEAR JEWELS? WHAT IS GOD’S WILL?
A) In Exodus 3:21,22 God commanded the Jews to ask the
neighbours for Gold jewels.
Then God did not ask them to carry them in skin bags
(The Jews were basically shepherds and had plenty of
animal skins) but asked to wear it upon their
children.
Why? Because God wanted His children to be blessed.
God did not expect His children to lust for gold but
to use them and be happy and focus on Him. God did not
provide just for the basic needs but also gave them
jewels to wear.
B) Why then did God ask the Jews to remove the Jewels
at the foot of the Mount?
Because they disobeyed God and made a calf idol from
their gold which He gave them to wear and so God
punished them.
C) Why did apostles Peter and Paul ask christians not
to wear jewels?
Because the new christians, in the past, were doing
group adultery before their goddesses of fertility
called Diana & Artemis. They used jewels, expensive
clothing, hairdos etc., to seduce men into adultery.
They did these immoral acts as an act of worship to
their goddesses.
Such people when they came to the church tried to
continue the same practises. Therefore, Paul gave such
a command.
D) What is God’s will?
God is unchanging as per Malachi 3:6. He wants us to
seek Him and never to lust gold. Neither is His will
to close jewellery shops.
E) What do some Pentecostal believers say ?
They say that an anointed christian should have things
which they “need” and not the things which they
“desire” like for example jewels.
What is the fact? If you observe such pentecostals you
can see the following:
1) They work in overseas countries and earn in lacs
per month.
2) They purchase the best clothes.
3) They live in houses with tiles and granites.
4) They have the best leather handbags and hairclips.
5) They do cosmetic treatment to their hair and hands.
6) They eat varieties of food cooked in coconut milk.
Just observe a TPM Pastor’s lunch.
7) Instead of wearing jewels the proportionate value
of money is stacked and stored in their bank accounts,
to the tune of lacs, for their future !!
Hence the above list shows very well that 1 to 7 does
not belong to the category of “need” but belong to the
category of “desire”.
Thus some pentecostal believers have their own “pet”
definition to the word “simplicity”. They also preach
this to others absolutely unmindful of the truth that
they themselves could not live what they preach.
F) Moreover, some Pentecostal believers confuse between
true desire and false desire. False desire is called
lust. But Bible says that Jesus became poor in order
for us to become rich as per 2 Cor 8:9. We might have
failures, afflictions and persecutions in life but it
is not God’s will for us to ask Him only for needs but
also our desires as per Ps 37:4.
G) Morover, “trusting” in jewels is different from
“using” them. A person who trusts in jewels boasts
about them. But a person who boasts about Christ &
depends on Him at all times does not trust in the
jewellery she wears.
H) Remember, God sees the heart not the white saree.
God sees the heart not the neck without jewels. Let us
not be white-washed sepulchres !
My suggestion to Pastors:
So dear pastors pls do not command to remove jewels of
believers. Instead teach them to live wisely amid
wearing jewels.
Dear all
the blessed word of god that the true church will face tribulations is coming true. only the truth will be questioned and criticized. As a youngster in the TPM church,I have No Problems.I have known my God as my Friend,Guide And Everything through our doctrines.After all Christian life is not a bed of roses. People who advocate jewellery & other stuff do so bcoz of their reluctance to remove it.In all truth TPM provides adequate teachings to receive our Lord at His Coming. An individual will benefit from it according to his level of submission. Let us remember that no man is perfect & run our race looking to the author & finisher of our faith,Jesus Christ.
i wanna answer susan on jewelery
HI JISHA
REMOVING JEWELS IS NOT THE PURPOSE OF LIFE. THERE IS MUCH MORE.
IF REMOVING JEWELS IS THE PURPOSE OF LIFE GOD WOULD NOT HAVE GIVEN THE JEWELS TO THE ISRAELITES TO WEAR.
JISHA, YOU MIGHT NOT WANT TO WEAR JEWELS BECAUSE YOU MIGHT THINK THAT REMOVING JEWELS IS YOUR PURPOSE IN LIFE.
GOD HAS GREATER PURPOSES. HE LOOKS FOR LOVE, HOLINESS AND TO PREACH THE GOSPEL. THAT IS WHY HE ANOINTED EVERYONE WITH HIS HOLY SPIRIT.
TPM WANTS TO PROJECT THEIR PIETY AND THEIR RIGHTEOUSNESS EXTERNALLY WITH WHITE DRESSES. GOD IS NOT INTERESTED IN THOSE EXTERNAL PIETY “DISPLAYS”.
GOD WANTS YOU TO KNOW THAT YOU ARE A PRIEST WITH A FAR BETTER CALLING THAN AARON. BECAUSE AARON COULD NOT ENTER INTO THE MOST HOLY WITH CONFIDENCE. BUT IN CHRIST, WE CAN TAKE HIS BLOOD AND ENTER INTO THE MOST HOLY AND CALL THE FATHER AS “ABBA” CONFIDENTLY!!
READ HEBREWS 4:16 AND HEB 10:19. REMEMBER, AARON DID NOT HAVE THE SAME CONFIDENCE AS WE HAVE IN CHRIST.
TPM BELIEVERS LIKE TO SHOW OFF THIER PIETY WITH “WHITE” AND REMAIN IGNORANT OF THIS GREAT TRUTH. THEY ALSO LIKE TO BRAG ABOUT TPM WORKERS RATHER THAN TRY TO FULFILL THE “GREATER THAN AARON” PRIESTLY CALLING THAT GOD HAS FOR THEM.
MAY GOD OPEN YOUR EYES.
Hi, and How are u? Well I hope you are sitting down… but I am a minister in this ministry (TPM- or- NTC)-and very happy. Do u ask when I pray for you, well whenever God places You upon my heart, even in those silly times when we…as ministers/workers are at the mall shopping or simply having a good time. You see dear we are very normal and actually fulfilled. I may not be a “pastor” but have preached, led worship and led others to Christ. Once again I ask to look a little further out than India and see that things are not all as you say…please. You sound like a very educated person and thus I ask you to take the time, and see that the vast majority of the workers are there to serve all, be one with all and are fulfilling the vocation placed upon their lives. Are there hard times? Of course, life is life whether in a church or outside… and if you’d like please feel free to email me so we may discuss your points personally. happy serving Him. dennmore
HI DENNMORE,
WORKERS ARE THERE TO SERVE ALL AND ARE FULFILLING THE VOCATION PLACED UPON THEIR LIVES?
COULD YOU PLS CLARIFY WHAT IS THAT VOCATION?
1. IS IT CREATING A SUPERIOR IDENTITY FOR TPM IN ORDER TO PROMOTE THE DENOMINATION ALONG WITH ITS FINANCIAL REVENUES?
2. IS IT PROMOTING AN EXTERNAL “WHITE” RELIGION OF PHARISEES RATHER THAN EQUIP THE BELIEVERS TO KNOW THAT EVERY BELIEVER IS A PRIEST WITH ACCESS INTO THE MOST HOLY PLACE?
3. IS IT TO BRAG AND BOAST (IN SERMONS & STUDIES) ABOUT THE TOTALLY UNBIBLICAL THEORY OF MELCHIZEDEK CALLING WHICH THE WORKERS SEEM TO HAVE AND THE THEORY WHICH SERVES TO ENSLAVE PEOPLE TO THE TPM (FLAG) IDENTITY?
4. IS IT PROCLAIMING TO BE APOSTLES WHEN 99.99% OF THE WORKERS DO NOT PERFORM MIRACLES AS PER 2 COR 12:12 AS A PROOF OF THEIR CALLING?
5. IS IT TO TEACH UNBIBLICALLY THAT MARRIED PASTORS OF OTHER GROUPS ARE INFERIOR TO TPM WORKERS WHEN THE BIBLE SAYS IN 1 COR 9:5 THAT THE APOSTLES WERE MARRIED?
6. IS IT TO CALL THE MEDICAL PROFESSION AS UNGODLY WHEN THOUSANDS OF DOCTORS AND NURSES IN TPM ARE GIVEN COMMUNION REGULARLY ? (MAYBE TPM WANTS THEIR TITHES!!)
7. IS IT TO CLAIM THAT MARRIAGE TAKES A PERSON’S DEVOTION AWAY FROM CHRIST AND STILL CONDUCTING MARRIAGES FOR BELIEVERS IN THE TPM FAITHOME?
WHAT IS YOUR VOCATION? MAN MAY SEE ONLY YOUR WHITE DRESS AND YOUR TONGUES-SPEAKING BUT GOD SEES THE TPM’S DISTORTIONS OF THE HEART.
Susan,
Can you explain what the Pastor Alwin crisis was?
dear i have read all good as well bad feed back abt T.P.M church. let me explan abt that, actually this church has good vision.they have well established spirituall leaders to lead their believers.their docterine is pure.wearing garments or white dresses are not only the main stream of their docterine,these are some aspects.this church congregation is so good.so believe them,ands grow more spiritually.lets ready for our 2 coming of jesus christ………may god bless u all……..
philip sam,physiotherapist
Dear Pothachan
Greetings in Jesus’ name. Philip Sam without seems to brush all the confusions in TPM under the carpet and pretend as if everything is OK. This is the mentality that refuses to repent. God hates such a stiff neckedness which is seen in TPM for nearly five decades. They never change.
Regarding Pastor Alwin, he was the one who created the typical doctrines of celibacy which TPM uses to create an unbiblical doctrinal identity for themselves.
Pas. Alwin himself fell in sin and was excommunicated.
The objective that we write is to inform people of TPM’s contradictions so that they stop defending the workers distortions. That will also open a way for the workers to repent. In addition, that opens a way for the believers to start to serve God rather than remain enslaved to the workers. That is the objective. We love the TPM workers. We would only desire that they shed their distortions and their enslavement of believers. Pls understand that.
Those who highlight errors will seek forgiveness and go ahead to serve God but those who sit and criticize the people who highlight will not do anything for God and will remain defending the distortions of workers and will be accountable on the day of judgement.
If you still expect the believers to be enslaved to the workers and thereby prevent them from serving God as a priest, it is you not us who will be accountable on the day of judgement.
God is not interested in people sitting back and doing worker-glorification but instead He expects every believer to understand his/her calling and move forward to preach the gospel and reach the lost. That was why He baptized every TPM believer with the Holy Spirit. Just beware lest you strive against God and His purposes for the sake of glorifying TPM.
The time is now to stop lazily hearing sermons after sermons every Sunday morning and instead rise up to reach the millions who are lost.
The time is ripe not for the promotion of denomination but by the power of God’s Spirit to reach the thousands of villages in search of the lost.
dear susan,
there is no such stiff neckedness for us. we doesnt need to brush up any thing by any sugar coated sentences.the docterine abt holy and zion are precious,which is difficult to follow.but if u follow that u can lead a victorious life.we never say that only our denomination has vision and mission.we do respect all denominations,we all are in bondage of the love of jesus christ..thats it..lets not dispute each others. we doesnt need to critisize others…god bless u……
Hi All especially Susan and Rachel,
Read here that CPM pastors allegedly own BMWs.
If true, this is strange.
Dear Friends, Greetings…
EXPECTING SYMPATHY AND PITY FROM THE BELIEVERS, THE TPM WORKERS SAY WITH TEARS, “WE PRAY CONTINUALLY FOR YOU. WE HAVE GIVEN UP OUR MARRIAGE AND WE ARE HERE TO SERVE YOU FULL TIME”.
THE ABOVE SHOWS THAT THEY TREAT ANOINTED BELIEVERS AS SPIRITUAL KIDS. THEY ARE RELUCTANT TO LET THE BELIEVERS GROW UP AS PRIESTS AND USE THE PRIVILEGE OF A GOD-GIVEN CONFIDENT ACCESS INTO THE MOST HOLY PLACE AFFORDED BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.
THUS, THE CONSECRATION OF WORKERS HAS BEEN GREATLY GLORIFIED INSTEAD OF GLORIFYING THE POWER IN THE BLOOD OF CHRIST. JUST BEWARE BRETHREN. GOD DOES NOT LIKE SUCH AN IDOLATRY OF WORKERS AND BELIEVER-CHILDISHNESS.
THE TPM BELIEVERS DO NOT EVEN KNOW TO SAY “PRAISE THE LORD” TO OTHER CHRISTIANS. SUCH IS THEIR PRIDE. AND THEY CALL IT SEPARATED-LIFE!!
JESUS SEPARATED HIMSELF FROM SIN NOT FROM SINNERS. BUT THESE TPM WORKERS SEPARATE THEMSELVES FROM OTHER SAVED CHRISTIANS. SUCH SEEMS TO BE THEIR HAUGHTINESS. REMEMBER, GOD RESISTS THE PROUD.
DO NOT BE CARRIED AWAY BY THE BLESSINGS THAT TPM PEOPLE HAVE. JESUS SAID THAT HIS FATHER BLESSES EVEN THE WICKED WITH RAIN. SO BLESSING IS NO TEST FOR TRUTH.
TPM TALKS ABOUT “SEPARATED-LIFE” ONLY TO PREVENT THEIR BELIEVERS FROM MINGLING IN UNITY WITH OTHER DENOMINATIONS. AND ALSO TO PROTECT THEIR SUPPLY OF REVENUES!!
JESUS DID NOT SUFFER AND DIE TO CREATE “TPM IDENTITY” BUT TO KEEP ALL DENOMINATIONS “UNITED”. BEWARE OF TPM WHICH TRIES TO SPLIT THE “UNITY” IN THE UNIVERSAL BRIDE CHURCH. THEY WILL BE ACCOUNTABLE.
susan.george2002@yahoo.com
Hi Susan,
In your words, I can see
HATRED, VARIANCE, WRATH, STRIFE…..
(Galatian 5: 19-20)
God is not interested in people sitting back and doing worker-nullifying but instead He expects every believer to understand his/her calling and move forward to preach the gospel and reach the lost. That was why He baptized YOU with the Holy Spirit. Just beware lest you strive against God and His purposes for the sake of glorifying your work.
Thanks
Geo
Hi,
I was born in a CPM heavy family. Was crazy about everything CPM until I was born again when I was 24. The good Lord who is ever faithful showed significant deviations from the Word that CPM has in its teachings. They are quite smart in hiding the major one where they say 144,000 on Mount Zion in Revelations are the TPM workers. It is preached to and believed by every church member. But it is difficult to get a hand of this doctrine in print unless you get the church journals like “Voice of..”.
Anyway, I’d like to say that my life in the Lord is super and I wish to get even closer to him. But this is not possible through communion with TPM as the teachings are just instructions on holiness/good living with human efforts. Btw, very few are born again there and are just deceived into thinking they are alright in God’s sight.
Susan, don’t get upset thinking about the workers and other TPMers, it is not worth it. The Lord, His ways and His work in the world outside is worth putting your life in. You can always pray for them.
Hi
TPM pastors quote Ps 110:3,4 to support their theory
that workers are called after the order of melchizedek
as they remain unmarried. They quote the following verses;
Ps 110: 3,4 says, “[3] Thy people shall be willing in
the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from
the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy
youth.
[4] The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art
a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
Explanation of truth:
In verse 3 we see terms like “thy people” and those who are like
“youth”. But Verse 3 never says that “thy people” or
“youth” are after the order of Melchizedek.
Instead Verse 4 says that only “Thou”, which refers to Jesus
Christ alone, is appointed after the order of melchizedek.
The word “Thou” in Hebrew is in singular and refers to
Jesus alone. Jesus does not have CPM workers or anyone
as successors in the order of Melchizedek.
Hebrews 7:23 says that once Aaron dies, someone else has to occupy his office. As per the Mosaic Law his eldest son becomes High Priest. This continues through the generations of Aaron. But Hebrews 7: 24 says that since Jesus does not die, His High Priesthood status is not passed to anyone else.
This clearly proves that CPM pastors are not in the order of Melchizedek. Only Jesus is.
Lets stand for truth. (susan.george2002@yahoo.com)
Hey Little Susan… Praise the Lord !!!
You are here too?? Where do you get all these info to copy and paste?? I hope time and again you have recieved replies to exactly all these of your postings.
Regards,
Jim.
And to Rachel to whom this blog belongs…
Rachel, so u really believe theres no God?? I want to know that very clearly from you in “YES” or “NO” and if “YES” why?? and if “NO” then what makes you blieve now?
Regards,
Jim.
Hi Jim,
I’m amused at ur question. U remind me so much of someone I know.
To answer ur question.
Yes! I’m an atheist.
Ever since I started the blog I have been an atheist.
If there are some posts that seem ambigous or otherwise please point them out to me. I’ll change it!
And about my “belief.”
I got disillusioned with Christianity and lost my belief.
I haven’t gained any new beliefs and don’t see the need for it either, so I remain an atheist.
And to all the other Christians who have posted here.
I want to thank some of you for your gracious posts and ability to empathise.
I want you to check out
http://www.truewomanhood.wordpress.com
http://undermuchgrace.blogspot.com
if you want to know what I think true christianity should be about
Hey Rachel,
So you are an athiest. That would allow me to conclude that you just popped up into existence or may be your parents.. or may be your grandparents?? or… your great-great-great grand parents….. who exactly do I conclude to have been popped up into existence from nowhere?? In that case, I am very sure you would quote the Darwin’s theory to support what you think is right. Allright??
Jim.
Rachel,
You say that you got disillusioned with Christianity and lost your belief. In that case, lets no more talk about Christianity. Just forget about it.
Lets talk about simple facts of life beginning from your views on “What do you think about your existence?? “, “Where do you think you have descended from??”,
And most of all you claim that “you have not gained any new beliefs and don’t see the need for it either, so you remain an atheist”
Now as an athiest, you say you have no belief is contradictory. To claim that you are an athiest, you must have strongly supported principles and belief; rather, reasons.
Now take an example: if I am to say that Internet is not working on my machine, I need to have complete knowledge of how exactly the connectivity works, otherwise if I call the technical support, the support engineer will explain me the things only for me to reallise that the LAN cable was a bit loosely connected.
Conclusion: Technically if you view as an engineer, the internet was up and was working but the LAN cable wasnt fixed up properly, which caused interruption in the TCP/IP packets from arriving at the port and prevented a complete connectivity.
If an engineer has to claim that internet isnt working, then internet users of the entire node of that area, say Pune, should be calling the customer support with their grievances.
Now lets come back to my first statement “if I am to say that Internet is not working on my machine, I need to have complete knowledge of how exactly the connectivity works”
This simple law applies to you. You must know how many hairs are upon every head, every thought of every human heart, every detail of history, every atom within every rock…nothing is hidden from your eyes… you should know the intimate details of the secret love-life of the fleas on the back of the black cat of Napolean’s great-grandmother. To make the absolute statement “There is no God.” You must have absolute knowledge that there isn’t one.
Lets forget about your background i.e you were a Christian, and lets not talk anything from Bible as of now. No hard and fast rules. Be not offended if I’m going too much. My sincere apologies if so.
Cheers !!!
Jim.
TPM BELIEVERS LIKE TO APPEAR VERY RATIONALISTIC & INTELLECTUAL BUT THEY DO NOT WANT TO ADMIT THE IRRATIONALISM THAT IS PRESENT IN THEIR “PET” TPM DOCTRINES.
IT IS A FACT THAT GOD ANOINTS PEOPLE WITH HIS HOLY SPIRIT UNIVERSALLY. MILLIONS OF CATHOLICS AND PROTESTANTS ARE RECEIVING THE HOLY SPIRIT WITH THE EVIDENCE OF SPEAKING IN TONGUES.
GOD ANOINTS PEOPLE IRRESPECTIVE OF THEIR DENOMINATIONS BECAUSE HE HAD PROMISED THE ANOINTING BY HIS GRACE.
HOWEVER, STRANGELY, TPM WORKERS LEAD THE BELIEVERS INTO THIS ANOINTING EXPERIENCE AND WHEN THE BELIEVERS RECEIVE THE ANOINTING AND EXPERIENCE THE JOY THE WORKERS DO THE FOLLOWING:
1) INTRODUCE UNBIBLICAL DOCTRINES AND SCRIPTURAL MISINTERPRETATIONS.
THE BELIEVER BEING UNABLE TO DISCERN THE ERROR JUST BELIEVES THE MISINTERPRETATIONS AS TRUTH.
LITTLE DO THEY REALISE THAT GOD GIVES THIS JOYFUL EXPERIENCE OF THE ANOINTING TO EVERYONE WHO ASKS IRRESPECTIVE OF DENOMINATIONS.
MAY GOD DELIVER THE TPM BELIEVERS FROM SUCH A DECEPTION.
REJOICE IN THE HOLY SPIRIT. BUT ALSO DO CHECK THE TPM DOCTRINES WHETHER THEY ARE TRUTH WITH THE HELP OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
TPM BELIEVERS LIKE TO APPEAR VERY RATIONALISTIC & INTELLECTUAL BUT THEY DO NOT WANT TO ADMIT THE IRRATIONALISM THAT IS PRESENT IN THEIR “PET” TPM DOCTRINES.
IT IS A FACT THAT GOD ANOINTS PEOPLE WITH HIS HOLY SPIRIT UNIVERSALLY. MILLIONS OF CATHOLICS AND PROTESTANTS ARE RECEIVING THE HOLY SPIRIT WITH THE EVIDENCE OF SPEAKING IN TONGUES.
GOD ANOINTS PEOPLE IRRESPECTIVE OF THEIR DENOMINATIONS BECAUSE HE HAD PROMISED THE ANOINTING BY HIS GRACE.
HOWEVER, STRANGELY, TPM WORKERS LEAD THE BELIEVERS INTO THIS ANOINTING EXPERIENCE AND WHEN THE BELIEVERS RECEIVE THE ANOINTING AND EXPERIENCE THE JOY THE WORKERS DO THE FOLLOWING:
1) INTRODUCE UNBIBLICAL DOCTRINES AND SCRIPTURAL MISINTERPRETATIONS.
THE BELIEVER BEING UNABLE TO DISCERN THE ERROR JUST BELIEVES THE MISINTERPRETATIONS AS TRUTH.
LITTLE DO THEY REALISE THAT GOD GIVES THIS JOYFUL EXPERIENCE OF THE ANOINTING TO EVERYONE WHO ASKS IRRESPECTIVE OF DENOMINATIONS.
MAY GOD DELIVER THE TPM BELIEVERS FROM SUCH A DECEPTION.
REJOICE IN THE HOLY SPIRIT. BUT ALSO DO CHECK THE TPM DOCTRINES WHETHER THEY ARE TRUTH WITH THE HELP OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
(susan.george2002@yahoo.com)
Susan…
You and your tpm… Now please stop it and put a full-stop to your denominations and doctrines and all those stupidity.
Shame on you lil lady… you are a blot on Chrstianity and its very basic principles. I got saved last year and go to a Methodist church here and your posts is literally getting on to my nerves. You are condaminating the whole purpose of Christ’s life. Tell me in what way should I take these postings of yours as my spiritual edification??
Stop these nonsnse posts once and for all and help an athiest to know the truth as I was once upon a time. I have a similar testimony which Sis Rachel shares here in her blog. Once I happen to this Methodist Church and happen to give an “Athiest’s Exam” by a pastor and the whole perception about my creator and purpose of my life was changed forever.
Thank you sis. Susan for stopping your good-for-nothing posts once and for all.
Anil.
And what is it that bro Jim wants to express here?? Trying to prove existence of God scietifically?? You cant do that since Science fails to prove itself spiritually. Its the biggest blow on Science. Science is a subset of Spirituality.
Athiests say something else. They say theres has no relation between them at all.
But I can prove it in here.. Let first Jim express what he wants to say…
Anil.
Anil and Jim
Do you realise how many souls TPM lets into hell because they enslave the believers and thereby prevent the believers from carrying the gospel to the lost?
When TPM believers are called to be “priests” the workers boast about their false “melchizedek priesthood” and deceive the believers from a great calling as stated in 1 Peter 2:5,9.
Because of this deception TPM believers cannot even realise their call, read the Bible, meditate the Bible, prepare gospel truths and share them to the lost.
Come on wake up you sleepers!! Start awakening the TPM believers instead of writing lousy mails about me.
Susan,
Dont you think this is the same content on your mail to me too??? I wonder… how expert you are with CtrlC + CtrlV.
I think you have got the right answers to your fanatic mails… Here we have some learnt and wise men to discuss athiesm both scientifically and spiritually. We dont need religious-fanatics like you here. Please stop posting stupidity.
“ChristianSpeak” as you know, makes a person seem to be more stupid to an athiest. Dont you prove it here too, as you have already proved yourself a fool in many of your posting in many of the blogs discussion forums. SO STOP IT AND SEEK WISDOM.
Jim.
Hi Rachel,
Back to the point.. I need your responses before I post mine… Do you believe in Darwin’s theory?? and if yes, then how do you justify it?? Remember.. it was just a theory and not a proven fact.
And to Bro. Anil, please focus on your spiritual edification. Reproaches and accusations are a part of Devil’s work against Chrstianity. Dont you ever mind them. Lets focus on our discussions.
So you say that the existence of God cant be proven scietifically. Your views are exactly the same but I never began justifying the same. All those who believe in Darwins theory must realise the fact that it wasnt a fact but just a theory based on best of his imaginations on evolution of mankind. what do you think on that??
Jim, Jimson & Anil
I am not too comfortable with your comments to Susan. You might not agree with her views.
Pl remember that you can abuse a person’s views, but never abuse the person.
About my own atheist beliefs, I really wouldn’t care less about proving them…I am what I am. Its only theists who have to believe in something..
So as far as Charles Darwin is concerned I did read the theory of evolution when I was in school. The only thing I recognise as an absolute fact is “survival of the fittest,” much as I wish it wasn’t so.
My lack of ideology is a bit of a problem to some of myChristian friends.
If I really have some way of thinking that vaguely resembles an ideology, it is that I am a big fan of the writings of George Bernard Shaw & Oscar Wilde.
So I really cannot be drawn into an ideological debate on why I’m an atheist.
HI FRIENDS
TPM BELIEVERS ARE DESPERATE TO SHIFT THE DISCUSSION FROM BEING EXPOSED CONCERNING THEIR DOCTRINAL MISINTERPRETATIONS AND THEIR “PET” LIES.
THEY CRAVE TO DISCUSS SOMETHING WHICH HELPS THEM EVADE FROM THE REAL “ISSUES” FACING TPM.
JUST BE AWARE OF THE “TPM’S STRATEGIES”!! THESE TPM FANATS HAVE NOT EVEN ANSWERED A SINGLE POINT OF MINE REGARDING JEWELS.
NOW PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING AND BE BLESSED:
We must understand the following crucial truths, which TPM suppresses:
1) Firstly, the High Priesthood status of the Old Testament temple was passed down only to the “firstborns” in Aaron’s family.
Hence, Aaron and his first son Eleazer who is alive and then Eleazer’s first son and so on and on would ONLY get the High priesthood position. No other descendents in Aaron’s family are eligible for that position. Only the “Firstborns” get that position.
Similarly, Jesus became THE firstborn by being raised from the dead as per Acts 13:33. He is also the High Priest in the heavenly temple as per Heb 4:15.
Jesus is the ONLY firstborn as per Romans 8:29 which says, “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.”
2) Secondly, the High Priesthood position in the Old Testament did not belong just to one person but instead was indeed passed down to the next generation. Why?
Because the High Priests are humans and they died.
But the High Priesthood status of Jesus is not passed down to anybody as He is the
Immortal Son of God as per Hebrews 7: 23, 24.
CPM’S STRANGE CLAIM:
But CPM presumptuously and falsely call themselves as descendents of such a High Priest!! Jesus does not pass his High Priest position to anybody, as He is the “ONLY firstborn” as per Romans 8:29. Only the Old Testament High Priests passed down their position as they died.
3) Thirdly, TPM workers say that they are high priests after the order of Melchizedek and therefore they are very special. However, what does the Bible say?
a) Heb 7:17 says, “You (Jesus) are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.”
b) Heb 6:20 says, “…He (Jesus) has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.”
c) Even in Psalms 110:4 we read, “You (Jesus) are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”
WHAT IS THE TRUTH? Thus, the above verses clearly state that it was Jesus who alone is the High Priest and there is absolutely not a single verse in reference to celibate workers or anyone else being called as Melchizedek Priests. TPM presumptuously propagates a lie without quoting any verse in particular.
(susan.george2002@yahoo.com)
Hey Jim and Jimson is same .. its me…
Being an athiest without any reason??? So you have no justification on why you are an athiest… hmmm its complex rather a baseless belief. I think you are confused of wheather you are really an athiest or an agnostic…
Darwin really said that “” survival of the fitte…..blah blah” but do you really think it needs to be a registered theory as such?? It is a fact of life…
And as far as debate is concerned, I dont want to draw you into an “IDEOLOGICAL” debate as you say on why you are an atheist… but rather, I want to challenge your views factually and scientifically. Because I told you at the first place… “Lets forget about Chrstianity and Bible” and I’m not going to refer or quote anything from Bible to prove what I want you to realise.
And as far as Susan is concerned, I think you are new to her. Everyone has got the right to express thier views and I admit that.. But these are not views on the subject of athiesm at all. She is desperately trying to prove how fanatic she is against some tpm and its so called doctrines.. Anil is a methodist, and I seldom go. “Its not mandatory for a true christian to be a member of some church, and every church-goers are not true christians…. She a desperate emotional fool trying to be smart and popular on the internet. Because if she really had some fear of God, she would spent more time in the presence of God than on internet. Now what all else she does is out of question…
I’m not an agnostic. I’m not wondering whether God exists or not. I’m an atheist. I don’t believe in God.
See, I was a Christian, being groomed to be a missionary or missionary’s wife (I suspect). So when I no longer believe in Christianity, I have nothing left.
Maybe in a few years, I might have an ideology of some kind. At the moment I’m to caught up with life. Justification…..
I am not attracted to any thing other politics (non-religious, election-based politics) and business journalism.
About Susan. I am not too sure why she is so vehement in her disapproval of TPM. But I think it would be better as Christians if you extended grace to her and not criticism. But then again I don’t know her or have had any relationship with her, so you maybe right.
As a secular person, I feel she is more pitied than censored. Im guessing she must have had some bitter experiences with the TPM, hence her strong reactions.
But are there other forums where such things are being discussed? I would love to read them
Yes, Jim spends more time in God’s presence. Maybe he spends many hours before the internet (in God’s presence!!).
You can very well see the frustration and desperation of Jim in trying to cover up the doctrinal misinterpretations of TPM.
He has not answered a single point when the TPM misinterpretations are exposed.
Rather than answer (because it seems he does not have an answer) he has settled for accusations and evasions.
Many have written to me identifying the cunning strategy of Jim.
Hope he admits his erroneous approach and repents before God with humility.
Susan,
You can disagree with Jim’s views, but personal attacks on him or how he spends his time is not in good taste. I also find the position of a moderator distasteful. I’m sure we can agree to disagree and debate in calmer tones.
Rachel
Dear Moderator Rachel,
I express truths as a counter to TPM’s misinterpretations. But instead of giving an intellectual counter, some like Jim have chosen to use this site to do the following:
– muffle the voice of truth by accusations.
– Avoid giving a reply based on scripture.
– Evade the topic of TPM’s distortions and accuse my motives.
This is a strategy usually seen adopted in TPM to counter other denominations when TPM’s lies are exposed. It is no wonder some TPM believers also use that.
I do not have any bitter experiences with TPM. Jim would like to paint it that way to discredit the validity of my arguments.
I had made my position very clear earlier in this blog (10 Dec ’08). I love TPM people but I debate only their blatant scriptural misinterpretations in an objective manner.
Now this Jim comes from no where to disturb that process. Hope my dear friends understand that.
More to follow on the so called TPM distortion and misunderstanding on “Divine Healing”…
God bless you all!!
Hi Rachel,
So you say God doesnt exists… But then for your belief, you need to justify the cause of your existence… Only then will I be able to atleast try and have an intellectual debate on SOMETHING that “God doesnt exists”…
Make this an intellectual debate than someting based on your personal opinion. Ask yourself…. the statement “God doesnt exists” isnt that your personal opinion and not at all a fact ???
And yes… this tpm might be having distortions in thier doctrines. But so is the same reaction from every denomination for each other.. isnt that so or am I wrong anywhere?? A Muslim friend of mine in Jeddah (Yemeni National) who studied with with me in Symbiosis says “Christianity is highly indoctrinated with claims of Christ to be son of God, but He was just a prophet !!!!!”…. And when I discussed the same with him further, I learnt that they believe in everything; His birth, performing miracles, His life and the His second coming. But they DONT believe that He really died on the cross !!!!!! They say He never tasted death like Enoch and Elijah…. and in the end days He’s going to come… And most of all he was so expert that he proved BIBLE wrong by showing me many discrepancies and miscalculations and CDs by some “Zakir Naik” to prove that Koran is the real ‘word of God’. Same is with the belief of Jews. They say Christ is yet to come. I have come a loong loong way LIVING these types of discussions. But it has only increased my trust in Jesus more and more.
What I want to conclude is… every denomination MIGHT be infested with distortions in thier doctrines. But dont you think God to be the best judge (sorry… you dont believe in Him) Can we do anything about that?? Now if Susan says that tpm has false doctrines, can she deny the fact that other protestant pastors possess bunglows, cars and acres of lands to thier name unlike tpm which has got building and lands to thier trust, where no individual pastors are benefitted??? They have got every facelities you can think of which an ultra-rich person possess and that not even a single naya paisa is hard-earned money but tieth of common-man-blievers??? Dr PK Yuhana is one of the best examples of those shameless pastors who was rightly raided by income tax guys and was convicted for misappropriating missionary funds from abroad. In contrast, many tpm centers are raided often but have you seen even a single headlines in the newspaper??? thats because they are clear with everything… Nothing belongs to an individual or any pastor.
What I see is Christ said leave your family and property and follow me.. but never says dont ever marry.. OFCOURSE YOU CAN MARRY…. every good believer who follows Christ is a saint and has got the status of a priest (thats what Bible says and is taught by every tpm pastors)…. But if you see.. Christ remained a celibate (unless you believe in the holy crap of Dan Brown who was not a historian but just a novelist). There are fanatics (fanatics FOR CHRIST) like St Paul who remained celibate like Christ with a great zeal to LIVE a life like Christ was a consecrated servant of God. Thats all I can see… tpm pastors chose the BEST way to follow Him, by setting an example to LIVE LIKE HIM.
I have seen and met how married pastors come to believer’s house for visiting. They sit and do chit chatting about this and that. They go on discussing useless crap of this world, clap and laugh. They discuss about thier children’s future and worry about them. They say an open ‘NO’ to thier senior pastors on transferring them as thier children’s education is affected. Obedience is a distance dream inthier system. Thier children watch TV immediately after the Sunday meeting. (I’m not advocating that watching TV is bad but movies??? !!!!, Harry Potter???!!!! (Which promotes witchcraft)). I have also seen that the children of pastors turn out to be the most naughty and commit sins beyond anyone’s imagination…. Jesus said “Those who are dead may go and bury thier dead” These shameless pastors come under this catagory of dead people… … Frankly my perception is…. any tpm sunday school student would be more God-fearing than any of these shameless pastors… Again I dont want to discuss further on this… I dont want to judge anyone…. because what I have learnt from all these years of such discussion is.. that this is devil’s work… I dont want to promote this kind of accusation-game… I am not defending or attacking some church’s belief or doctrines.
Same is my advise to Susan… Please stop it.. This will not help anyone anyway.. but will give rise to hatred alone…. thats it… The Word of God is compared to 2-edged sword… Let God alone be the judge… She says “Jim comes from nowhere to disturb the process”… I mean… process of what???
Anyways… Rachel please be back to our discussions…
Jim.
Hi Brother Jim…
I’ve been readig these for a quite loong time and you asked the right question…. “process of what ??” I have the answer for it.. “the process of promoting evil by encouraging hatred among us as you rightly said” This is truly devil’s work.. At the first place I was completely shaken on my stand but now I am comfortable… Thanx Jim…
And yea… Jim have you read Koran anytime?? what is it that they claim about Sodom and Gomorrah??
Anil
WHAT IS DIVINE HEALING?
1) Jesus heals the sick even now as a sign to prove
that He is God and Saviour. This healing was to draw
people towards salvation and not to make doctors lose
business.
2) God has appointed Doctors, Judges, Teachers,
Lawyers etc., for these people are principalities and
powers appointed by God Himself.(Rom 13:1-4)
3) A doctor only treats but it is God who heals. One
ought not to claim that a doctor heals. Likewise a
teacher only teaches but wisdom comes from God.
4) God never demeans the role of a doctor when He
heals the sick people. As Jesus said that a sick man
needs a physician, man has to use the offices of a
doctor just as he does use the offices of a policeman
or a teacher etc.,
5) CPM claims that doctors are sinners but sadly give
communion to believers who are doctors. Moreover, it
is interesting to note that these doctor believers are
never asked to renounce their profession either!!
6) The gift of healing is not to heal all the sick
people in the world but to provide an opportunity to
the sick to see the love of Christ amid a background
of suffering.
7) A tablet or a medicine is matter + wisdom. Both
come from God for every good gift and every perfect
gift comes from the Father of lights.
8) Our trust ought not to be on doctors or medicines
but in Christ who is the Lord of all health.
9) I am yet to hear a single verse in the scripture
from a CPM scholar who claims that people who were
surgically operated will never be able to see the face
of the Father in heaven !! This I believe is a
fabricated doctrine to project CPM as superior to
other pentecostal denominations. God gives grace to
the humble.
Now, the act of possessing wealth and blessings is no sin be it a worker or a believer. Maybe TPM believes so in a contradictory manner.
The problem is that TPM claims to be in “faith” and “simplicity” when they are contradictory in their practise.
The problem is not wealth but the inconsistency in thenlack of practise. They preach but not practise. (See blog on Nov 1, 2008)
FIRSTLY, JIM’S ARGUMENT GOES LIKE THE FOLLOWING:
PREMISE NO. 1: ALL DENOMINATIONS HAVE MISINTERPRETATIONS.
PREMISE NO.2 : TPM ALSO HAS MISINTERPRETATIONS.
CONCLUSION: SO DO NOT EXPOSE THE MISINTERPRETATIONS OF TPM.
JIM’S ARGUMENTS HAS THE FOLLOWING FLAWS:
1. IN PREMISE 1, JIM HAS CONFUSED BETWEEN PROSPERITY AND DOCTRINAL MISINTERPRETATIONS. HE HAS NOT PROVED THE DOCTRINAL MISINTERPRETATIONS OF OTHER DENOMINATIONS.
2. HENCE HIS CONCLUSION IS FALSE. AND SUSAN’S CASE IS STRONG.
SECONDLY, JIM HAS NOT UNDERSTOOD THE FOLLOWING MESSAGES WHICH SUSAN IS CONVEYING:
NO. 1: TPM IS A WORKER-GLORIFYING CULT.
NO. 2: TPM’S SCRIPTURAL MISINTERPRETATIONS ARE DESIGNED TO PROMOTE WORKER-GLORIFICATION.
NO.3 : TPM’S EXTERNAL WHITE-SHOW IS DESIGNED TO CREATE A TPM IDENTITY WHICH IS UNBIBLICAL.
WHAT ARE THE CONSEQUENCES OF NO. 1, 2 AND 3:
1. THIS WORKER-GLORIFICATION LEADS TO ENSLAVEMENT OF BELIEVERS TO THE WORKERS.
2. PROMOTES AN EXTERNAL SHOW OF RELIGION.
3. MAKES BELIEVERS SUCKLING BABES TO DEPEND ON THE WORKERS RATHER THAN USE THE AUTHORITY IN THE NAME OF JESUS AS PER MARK 16:17 TO CAST DEMONS AND HEAL THE SICK.
4. MAKES BELIEVERS TO DEPEND ON THE SERMONS OF WORKERS FOR WORDS OF ENCOURAGEMENT AND KNOWLEDGE RATHER THAN LISTEN TO THE HOLY SPIRIT AS PER 1 JOHN 2:27.
5. MAKES BELIEVERS LUKEWARM SUNDAY-WORSHIPPERS AND THUS PREVENT THEM FROM DOING THE MINISTRY OF PROCLAIMING THE GOSPEL WITH BURDEN FOR SOULS.
6. MAKE BELIEVERS DEPEND ON THE INTERCESSION OF WORKERS AND THUS LOSE FOCUS ON THEIR PERSONAL FASTING AND PRAYERS.
CONCLUSION: HENCE WHEN SUSAN HIGHLIGHTS THE MISINTERPRETATIONS OF TPM LET US READ & LISTEN TO THAT, ASK THE HELP OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND LET US SERVE GOD RATHER THAN DEPEND ON TPM.
GOD BLESS YOU ALL ESPECIALLY THE FOUNDER OF THIS BLOG SITE.
Uffff… Shes again into the same stuff… I’m sure Rachel.. u must be enjoying her stuff a lot… otherwise u would have already banned her from posting these with 2 reasons:
First: you are an athiest and has nothing to do with Christianity or any other religion. tpm is nowhere when it comes to a whole big cloud of religions that is there in the world today…
Second: Her debate has got nothing fruitful in defending or attacking the main stream debate of “Athiesm”… Anyways… its all your blog and you have the right of moderation… All the best !!!
St Paul never wrote I Cor for any workers but he wrote for believers. But if a believer wants to be a Christ-Fanatic like St. Paul, is there any restriction??
All the tpm pastors are believers who CHOSE to be a Christ-Fanatics like St. Paul and since they have consecrated their life, they are living saintly life and serving as pastors.. That all…
And frankly… these idea of any tpm pastors saying that “anyone surgically operated…. blah blah..” is a complete nonsense.. I have never heard any pastors quoting or teaching that way. This might have been a tpm pastors personal opinion but was NEVER A TPM DOCTRINE.
And as for (Rom 13:1-4), if you read it carefully, it never talks about the word “DOCTOR” DOctors are never a part of “principalitis and powers” but a part of social service… it talks about the “law of the land” and that we should be subject to them esp concerning tax. This emphasises more about the tax paying and not about doctors at all.
And again talking about medicine, this word “MEDICINE” is derived from a word called “pharmacia” which means “sorcery”.. In olden days they had witch doctors, and black-magic doctors, ‘depending on them’ which are an abomination in the eyes of the Lord.
When childen of Israel were in the wilderness, thier all in all was God…. Purely medicine was not all thier dependacy for 40 yrs !!!!!!!!!…. Purely, medicine is for those faith lacks in God for thier healing like an antibiotic, which causes all the body’s strength to loose and destroys the immune system of our body…
Hope this helps Susan in getting some sense…
Jim,
Science and religion have always been at opposite ends. For me there is no scientific evidence that God exists. As far as I can see God seems to exist only in the human mind.
I have not seen or read scientific proofs of life-after-death, supernatural forces or paranormal forces. So my stand “God does not exist” is based not just on personal opinion.
But that does not mean I am anti-religion. I like Christ and his teachings. It is only religion which promotes the killing of people (Muslims/Hindus or Christians) in India, Pakistan, Iraq, Palestine or Israel that I oppose.
I do not condemn religious views unless it is against the interests of a secular society.
As to my article on the TPM, which has caused so much debate, it was written as a light-hearted piece to Christians not to be too legalistic. If it interests you, I am not pro or anti-TPM or pro-or anti any other Christian denomination. I am non-denominational and secular, in fact if you read other posts on my blog, I have also commented on the activities of other religious institutions (Churches/Hindu temples) and my general disapproval of some of their “money-making activities” and “vote-bank politics”. But being an ex-Christian my blog tends to address more the issues of the Christian community.
About the ongoing debate with Susan, Anil and yourself (which I wish did not veer towards the personal or name-calling) I am not happy or unhappy about it.
Being an atheist, does not mean I rejoice at bad things or good things being said about a certain denomination. I am interested in social secular reform not in inter-denomination politics.
As to why I allow people to comment? I approve all comments which do not use bad words or filthy language. Comments like “All Muslims in India should be killed” or “All Christians should be driven out of India” or anything bound to create religious tensions I do not approve (And I have received quite racist/castiest comments). I believe in freedom of expression, so anyone can comment here.
DEAR BRETHREN,
1. IF MARRIAGE TAKES A PERSON AWAY FROM DEVOTION TO CHRIST THEN TPM WORKERS WOULD DO GOOD IF THEY GAVE UP THEIR MARRIAGE LICENSES WHICH THEY GOT FROM THE GOVERNMENT.
(HOPE THEY PRACTISE CHRIST-FANATCISM!! RATHER THAN JUST PREACH)
2. IF INCOME TAX OFFICIALS ARE APPOINTED BY GOD WHO APPOINTS DOCTORS? THERE WAS NO ANSWER TO THAT.
(IN FACT JESUS SAID THAT A SICK MAN NEEDS A PHYSICIAN. SO WHO APPOINTED A PHYSICIAN?)
3. IN TPM FAITHOMES YOU CAN SEE EXCELLENT “GRANDMA POTIONS” BEING PREPARED FOR WORKERS AND BELIEVERS WHEN THEY FALL SICK. PAS. A.C. THOMAS WAS GIVEN PROTEIN SUPPLEMENTS AND WATERBURY’S COMPOUND.
PAS. C. JOHN WAS PROVIDED WITH PORK BECAUSE HE SUFFERED FROM PILES. MAYBE “FAITH” FORGOTTEN DURING THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES.
4. TPM DOCTORS AND NURSES WHO PRESCRIBE MEDICINES (SORCERY ITEMS AS PER JIM) ARE GIVEN COMMUNION IN THE LORD’S TABLE?
IF DOCTORS ARE SIMILAR TO WITCH DOCTORS WHY DOES TPM GIVE COMMUNION TO THEM?
5. IT THE GOD OF THE ISRAELITES (JESUS) WHO SAID, “I AM THE LORD THAT HEALETH THEE” WHO AGAIN SAID THAT A SICK MAN NEEDS A PHYSICIAN. HOPE JIM REMEMBERS THAT!!
PLEASE THINK…AND YOU CAN SEE THE TRUTH.
Hey Rachel…
You compare science with religion as having opposite ends… That is true. For me Christianity is not a religion at all. its a pure relation of mine with my creator.
You will never find any scientific article on life-after-death as whole true picture although u’ll find vague imaginations of people putting down on the paper as books.
But then again.. I never told you that you are anti-religion. What you see as God exists only in human mind is a pure teaching of Hindu philosophy… It says in every matter of the earth, air and within you.. is God…
You say that “I do not condemn religious views unless it is against the interests of a secular society” where as you are contradicting yourself by using the word “secular, which talks about unity of all the religion” according to athiesms, religionS SHOULD NOT EXIST…. (PURE COMMUNISM)… Secularism is a concept of mixed democracy like India.
And as far as science is concerned, if you are considering science to be a greater platform than the existence of God, I ask you what is your opinion about the “lame man walking”, “blind man being able to see”, “dead man raised to life (Lazarus)” etc etc… and all the miracles Jesus Christ performed?? These miracles to this date has not been able to be proven by the pure science… Science has its own flaw…
Lets go step by step:
Lets see now… what is gravity? This answer cannot be found in today’s theories.
Answer:
Newton only claimed that gravity was an attracting force
between all objects because that’s the way things appear —
objects fall to the Earth or approach each other when floating
in outer space. So Newton understandably claimed that it
must be some type of attracting force emanating from objects,
but he gave no scientific explanation for this force. Why does
it attract and not repel? How does it cause falling objects and
orbiting planets without drawing on any known power source?
Einstein was so dissatisfied with our lack of understanding about gravity even two centuries after Newton that he invented an entirely new theory of gravity, known as General Relativity. Yet this theory doesn’t solve these problems either, adding that since everything in 3-dimensional space takes time to occur we must include our time measurement as a literal 4th physical dimension of our universe’s structure — hence “4-D space-time”, which somehow warps 4-dimensionally in the presence of matter for still-unexplained reasons, presumably explaining gravity.
In addition to the increase in unanswered questions with
General Relativity, it has been found to completely fail even to
explain the motion of stars in galaxies. This has led to the
further invention of exotic “Dark Matter”, said to invisibly fill
galaxies, rather than questioning Einstein’s theory and the
often-repeated claim that it has been tested to extreme
accuracy. Add to this the fact that there are still a half-dozen
theories of gravity officially under consideration at the
moment, all with different physical description of gravity,
and it is no wonder many are still asking: “What is gravity?”
Science cant prove its own existence, but we all believe in it… The law of science which says according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, that nothing can claim to be existence if we are not able to touch, smell, or seen it. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one.
We know about elctro-magnetic force but has never really seen it… Science cannot even exlain a thought…
SCIENCE FAILS RIGHT HERE !!!!
Is Pork some kind of medicine?? its just food… even I have pork… Susan this makes you appear so cheap… what do you have to do with what they eat, and wear?? This Jim remembers everything… If god says “I am the Lord which healeth thee… thats it…”
The verse goes like this “When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
****This was just an example given by Christ to explain His purpose of being in this world****
Rachel Varghese talks here about prosperity.. of??? This is so funny… So Dr. PK Yuhana was a man of prosperity…
Prosperity needs to be a result of honesty and struggle and not looting believer’s money for all thier the property and bank balance that they have, raided by income tax authorities to hit the headlines of all the newspapers.. This is a clear disobedience of the word of God which instructs every man to abide by the law of the land and to pay the tax (Rom 13:1-4).
Again Rachel Varghese talks about 2 premises…
PREMISE NO. 1: ALL DENOMINATIONS HAVE MISINTERPRETATIONS.
PREMISE NO.2 : TPM ALSO HAS MISINTERPRETATIONS…
****The second premise has no meaning if she was to say that premise no1 is true…. as I thought tpm is also a denomination. This makes me to conclude that tpm is not a denomination like any ordinary one but ultimate truth.****
She concludes both the premises by saying that I dont want to expose any blah blah blah…. NOW what I have to say on this…. “I WAS NEVER INTO ACCUSATION GAMES PROMOTING THE DEVIL’S WORK…. I HAVE DONE THIS TOO MAUCH SINCE A LOOOONG TIME BUT BENEFITTED NOTHING OUT OF IT… BUT YESSS… I WILL ALWAYS EXPRESS MY VIEWS ON WHAT I THINK… I NEVER ACCUSED ANY DENOMINATION AND NOT INTERESTED… I JUST TAKE THEM AS THIER OPINION BASED ON HOW THEY WERE TAUGHT FROM THE TIME THEY WERE YOUNG…. THATS ALL”
And about the 3 points that Rachel Varghese states as being conveyed by Susan… “THESE ARE UTTER NONSENSE WHICH I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF PREACHING OR BEING TAUGHT. EVERY BELIEVER IS A PRIEST AND TPM STRONGLY TEACHES AND ADVOCATES THE SAME., WHICH ENCOURAGES ANY TPM BLIEVER TO HAVE AUTHORITY IN THE NAME OF ‘JESUS-THE RESURRECTED FROM DEAD’ TO FAST AND PRAY AND ALSO CAST OUT DEMONS IN THE NAME OF CHRIST…”
After saying all these, I have a BIG doubt on the claims of both Ms. Susan and Rachel Varghese…. Have they ever tried to approach a tpm pastor to justify what they claim or may be for a discussion which may last for max couple of hours…??? If not then it only goes on to prove how coward they are to express thier bitterness in the internet than to spread hope, peace and joy which Chrsitianity talks about…
There are two aspects: Susan is not understanding that… one to remain CHRIST-FANATIC like St. Paul, and an another to remain faithful to Lord, following Him, keeping all his commandments…
For both these there are certain procedures as per the law. If you are getting married, it must be according to the law. Word of God also says to be subject to the law of the land. And since the marriages needs to be registered in the government books, it needs to be done by someone who has got the licence. Now if the person has to marry as per the law as Bible says, it ofcourse has to be a pastor and a pastor would need a licence for it for without which it would be a clear law-breaking of the land…
Now is there something here that is not understandable??? This is very clear…
Hi Jim brother..
You are right in all the aspects… I UNDERSTAND THAT VERY CLEARLY… but dont you think you are also into blame game exacltly like these two sisters…?? Accusing some dr. pk yuhana and blah blah…??
This makes even you appear to be in the same catagory like those sisters… Atleast you leave it once and for all.. Let them play the game… lets watch and have some fun…. These types of articles are seldom found on internet.. so leme atleast read them and have some fun…
And I also liked the funda of being a CHRIST-FANATIC…. Is there really any such pentacostal denomination with pastors serving as a celibate workers like Catholic system??? !!!! Its amazing… I would like to know more about them… Please do let me know… (CERTAINLY NOT FROM SUSAN AND RACHEL V)
But then I must say… You have wrote very well about the theory of gravity… And I would like to read response from Rachel C very soon….
Regards,
Anil
HYPOCRICY OF TPM:
1. JIM WAS VERY ON POINTS 2 AND 4 ON THE BLOG DATED 7 JAN ’09. IF GOD IS THE HEALER WHY WAS PORK TAKEN FOR PILES. JIM HAS NOT READ MY PASSAGE PROPERLY.
I SAID PORK WAS TAKEN FOR PILES NOT AS FOOD.
2. STILL AS RACHEL VARGHESE POINTED OUT JIM HAS NOT YET GIVEN ANY STATEMENT OF SCRIPTURAL MISINTERPRETATIONS WHEN HE TALKS ABOUT YOHANNAN. THIS IS A TERRIBLE LACK.
WHEREAS WHAT I AM ADDRESSING IS THE SCRIPTURAL MISINTERPRETATIONS OF TPM.
3. JESUS EXPLAINED HIS PURPOSE OF BEING IN THIS WORLD AND TO DO THAT HE DID NOT TELL A LIE. HE WAS STATING THE TRUTH THAT A SICK MAN NEEDS A PHYSICIAN.
4. IF YOU ASK THESE TPM FANATS (WHO TAKE ALL SELF MADE MEDICINAL PRESCRIPTIONS IN THEIR PRIVACY) AND EXTERNALLY DENOUNCE MEDICINAL PREPARATIONS AS TO WHY TPM WORKERS GIVE COMMUNION FOR DOCTORS IN TPM (WITCH DOCTORS) THEY WOULD NOT ANSWER.
5. SO JIM AGREES THAT TPM IS MARRIAGE LICENSING CORPORATION. THEY WOULD CLAIM THAT MARRIAGE IS A DILUTION OF CHRIST FANATICISM BUT STILL CONDUCT MARRIAGES IN FAITH HOMES.
TPM WOULD SCREAM THAT MARRIAGE TAKES A PERSON AWAY FROM CHRIST AND STILL CONDUCT MARRIAGES TO LEAD PEOPLE AWAY FROM CHRIST FANATICISM. EXCELLENT LOGIC!! PHARISEES WERE LESS HYPOCRITICAL, I THINK.
6. IF EVERY BELIEVER IS A PRIEST AND HAS ACCESS INTO THE MOST PLACE OF THE FATHER OF JESUS WHY ARE TPM WORKERS BRAGGING ABOUT THEIR FALSE MELCHIZEDEK CALLING? WHY ARE THEY BRAGGING ABOUT THEMSELVES IN THEIR BOOKS ON “DEEPER TRUTHS” (ACTAULLY TPM BOOKS COULD BE CALLED AS “DEEPER LIES”!!)
7. REMEMBER, YOU ARE A PRIEST. YOU HAVE ACCESS INTO THE MOST HOLY PLACE. SPEAK TO THE FATHER. JESUS DIED TO GIVE YOU HIS FATHER AND HIS HOLY SPIRIT AND NOT A BUNCH OF SELF-GLORIFYING PHARISEES!!
DEAR BRETHREN, JUST BEWARE OF TPM WHICH IS A WOLF IN WHITE-CLOTHING WHO INSERT SCRIPTURAL DISTORTIONS IN THE NAME OF PIETY WITH A FALSE HUMILITY.
DO NOT LOOK TO THEIR MAN-MADE AND SELF-GLORIFYING CONSECRATION BUT LOOK TO THE HOLY SPIRIT.
GOD BLESS YOU!!
“When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
****This was just an example given by Christ to explain His purpose of being in this world****
HE compares the sinners with those who are sick… Christ died on the cross to deliver us from sins. His blood is strong enough to heal us from any sins that we might have commited. When you do no sin, you wont have any sicknesses.. Sickness is the cause of sin that U might have comitted or your forefathers…
CAN CPM PASTORS AND APOSTLES MARRY ???
Firstly the founder Pastor Paul was a married man and
had children when in a faithhome. The celibate type of
ministry was introduced by Pastor Alvin, a sinhalese,
whose ancestors were Catholics. He changed
Paul’s vision into a catholic style ministry. Finally
this Alvin fell in adultery in France Faithome and was excommunicated
from CPM.
Secondly, Pastor Freddy Paul, son of the founder (Paul) had got many Pastors married. A leading example is Pastor
Manohar who is now in Jaipur faithhome. He has four
children. His wife is Sis. Lilykutty. Similarly the
founder Paul also got 10 Pastors married and they
lived in a marriage when in CPM ministry. The CPM
Pastors suppress these facts from the believers.
Thirdly, 1 Cor 9 vs 5 states that the apostles had the
authority to be married and that was why Pastors like
Manohar, Founder Paul, Pastor Joseph (Composer Sis.
Glory’s dad), Mother Arthur etc., were all in marriage
during their ministry. Celibacy was promoted to create
an identity for TPM and thereby preserve their
believers from leaving the denomination.
Fourthly, Moses who was a married man also was able
to see God face to face. All our dedication are as filthy rags before the Most Holy God. Hence let us brag about Christ and not about the TPM dedication. God can use a donkey for his ministry. Num 22:28. God wants someone who obeys Him and not our man-made dedication.
Fifthly, Pas. Raman Kutty Paul never had a vision of
buying lands and buildings for the church or in the name of a Trust. Their vision was to live in rented places and that was why they called it a faithhome. But now the same name is
used absolutely meaninglessly as people do not know
the earlier committment.
But now all rationalisations are provided but they do not want to part with the name “faithhome”.
I wish you are enlightened with the above and not fall a trap to the TPM’s self glorification of their consecration.
I encourage you to minister as you are a priest as per 1 Peter 2:5,9. There is only one High Priest who is Jesus. The 12 tribes of Israel had a calling to be a kingdom of priests as per Ex 19:6.
CPM Pastors will brag about their melchizedek consecration in their songs and sermons and will not reveal that you are a priest.
This is what apostle Paul’s opinion about marriage. The author of this (rachelchitra) seems to be not higher that St. Paul.
Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
3Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
4The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
5Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
6But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.
7For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.
8I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I.
9But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.
10And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
11But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
12But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
13And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
14For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
15But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.
16For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?
17But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.
18Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.
19Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
20Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.
21Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather.
22For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord’s freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ’s servant.
23Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.
24Brethren, let every man, wherein he is called, therein abide with God.
25Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.
26I suppose therefore that this is good for the present distress, I say, that it is good for a man so to be.
27Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife.
28But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you.
29But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none;
30And they that weep, as though they wept not; and they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not; and they that buy, as though they possessed not;
31And they that use this world, as not abusing it: for the fashion of this world passeth away.
32But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord:
33But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.
34There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.
35And this I speak for your own profit; not that I may cast a snare upon you, but for that which is comely, and that ye may attend upon the Lord without distraction.
36But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry.
37Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well.
38So then he that giveth her in marriage doeth well; but he that giveth her not in marriage doeth better.
39The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.
40But she is happier if she so abide, after my judgment: and I think also that I have the Spirit of God.
THE FOLLOWING IS THE OPINION OF TPM FOUNDER PAS. PAUL AND THE EARLY APOSTLES AS STATED IN THE SCRIPTURES:
1. 1 Timothy 3: 5 says, “(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?)”
Thus, God expects the people, especially those who lead and manage congregations, to be married and be able to manage their family.
2. Secondly, Jesus never commanded His apostles to remain unmarried. If He had required that apostles should be celibates, He would have selected unmarried people as apostles. However, Jesus chose married people as apostles.
3. Thirdly, 1 Corinthians 9:5 says, “5Don’t we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas[a]?
The above verse clearly states that apostles never forsook their wives but instead they took them along. Moreover, Paul the apostle claims, in the above verse, that he has a right to marry as the other apostles did.
4. Fourthly, in 1 Timothy 4: 1, 2 and 3 the Bible warns saying, “The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry…”
Thus, the Holy Spirit warns that in the last days, false teachers will forbid people to abstain from marriage. Beware of TPM which calls marriage as lustful and defiling.
Hi Jim,
What you see as God exists only in human mind is a pure teaching of Hindu philosophy… It says in every matter of the earth, air and within you.. is God…
I didn’t know that line of thought came from Hinduism. I think I first heard my social science professor say it. Anyway I’m happy to know the source. But since we live in largely Hindu country, its only natural that so many of its traditions and beliefs cross-over to us. So many Christians even now tie the thali and stop wearing flowers when they are widowed. So many archaic practises like marriages-based on caste. Wish there was more Christian (by Christian I mean Christ-like) egalitarianism.
You say that “I do not condemn religious views unless it is against the interests of a secular society” where as you are contradicting yourself by using the word “secular, which talks about unity of all the religion” according to athiesms, religionS SHOULD NOT EXIST…. (PURE COMMUNISM)… Secularism is a concept of mixed democracy like India.
India should be a secular country. I don’t have any statistics, but I’m guessing 80 to 95 per cent people in India are theists – they believe in some religion. Atheists are very much in the minority. I don’t aim at converting people to atheism or debunking their religious belief. But I am sure we would like an India without the Gujarat riots, the atrocities against Christians in Orissa or the Graham Steines incident. So in India, “secularism” can be the only platform for religious harmony, not atheism.
Gravity or questions about our existence or evolution – science hasn’t answered still. For many centuries people lived thinking the sun goes around the earth…So science will take its time to answer questions. We cannot understand the mysteries of the universe overnight.
“Science cant prove its own existence, but we all believe in it… “
I am not too sure what you mean by this. But I can tell you the failure of science in explaining every phenomenon on earth is no proof of the existence of God.
The verses quoted from 2 to 40 by Sam from the Holy Scripture … seems to be some kind of —- for Sis Rachel… What does this prove about the spirit of hers???
The scripture is so very clear on this… I just love the way how they maintain themselves as CHRIST-FANATICS as Jim quoted. This is wonderful.
Brother Sam, can you help me with some tpm churche’s branch in Mulund??
Sorry Anil to edit your comment on Rachel Varghese. Its the first comment I’m editing. But do try to engage only in theological debates not in anything personal.
I THINK ANIL HAS FORGOTTEN THAT THE VERSES QUOTED BY RACHEL WERE OFCOURSE FROM THE SCRIPTURES.
MAYBE ANIL HAS READ ONLY SOME PORTIONS OF THE BIBLE.
IF TPM WAS CHRIST FANATIC AS YOU CLAIM TPM WOULD DO THE FOLLOWING:
1. STOP CONDUCTING MARRIAGES IN TPM. (BECAUSE TPM PREACHES THAT MARRIAGE IS DEFILING AND LEADING AWAY FROM CHRIST’S DEVOTION)
2. STOP BOASTING ABOUT THEIR UNBIBLICAL MELCHIZEDEK’S CALLING TO GLORIFY THEMSELVES.
3. START PREACHING THAT BELIEVERS ARE PRIESTS WITH CONFIDENT ACCESS INTO THE MOST HOLY PLACE FAR BETTER THAN THE HIGH PRIEST AARON.
4. START PREACHING THAT BELIEVERS CAN HEAR THE VOICE OF GOD AS THEY HAVE ACCESS TO THE FATHER INTO THE MOST HOLY PLACE.
WITHOUT DOING THIS CLAIMING CHRIST FANATICISM IS PURE FICTION.
MOREOVER I HAD ONE MORE INTERESTING QUESTION FOR ANIL. YOU SAID, “When you do no sin, you wont have any sicknesses.. Sickness is the cause of sin that U might have comitted or your forefathers…”
IF SO WHY DO TPM WORKERS GET ALL THE DIABETES, BLOOD PRESSURE, PILES, BOILS AND DIE SO YOUNG? CAN YOU PLEASE ANSWER?
The whole bible is true. All words in it are true. You cannot use (quote) one against the other.
I Corinthians chapter 7 cannot be used against 1 Timothy 3: 5 says or vice versa. Each one of them has got its own significance. No one can practise the entire things said in the Bible. At least one should believe it entirely.
Every one can chose things according to his faith and call.
It is not for marriage church was created. It was for church marriage was constitued.
God’s church is not about managing many families, God’s church is not managed by any family in this world. It is well managed by God. God’s church is not for families only. It is built upon foundation of apostles who had given his life for Jesus Christ.
The true bride of Jesus is a pure and chaste virgin (not corrupted by world that does not means not marrying), washed in the blood of the Lamb and waiting for his comming.
These this will corrupt one’s life are sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. All are included in equal brackets.
Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
JUDGE not, that ye be not judged.
or
Judge ye be judged.
Dear Anil, you may check the below adresses. Choose things that you feels good, but please spare there life and criticising their teaching.
Ambernath The Pentecostal Mission 531,Sai Section, Old High School Road,Ambernath-421501 Sunday/9a.m/Hindi,Malayalam,Telagu Wednesday/6.30p.m/Hindi,Malayalam,Telagu Saturday/6.30p.m/Hindi,Malayalam,Telagu Pr.J.E.Dasan
65251-602285ph
Deonar The Pentecostal Mission PlotNo-1, Lala Jamunadas Gupta Marg, Deonar, Mumbai-400088 Sunday/9a.m/English,Hindi,Tamil Wednesday/6.30p.m/Hindi,Malayalam Saturday/6.30p.m/Hindi,Malayalam Br.Sampat 5565667,5512497
Dharavi The Pentecostal Mission G.F.I, Dharavi Kali Chawl 162-C, Dharavi Main Road, Dharavi, Mumbai-400017 Sunday 9 a.m English, Hindi, Tamil Br.Sampat 4011437
Dombivli The Pentecostal Mission Jondhale High School, Nr. Rly. Station, Dombivli(W) Sunday 9 a.m. Hindi, Malayalam Br.Johnson 95251-406547
Kandivli(E) The Pentecostal Mission Vandemataram Chawl, Gautam Nagar, Kandivli(E)
Sunday 9a.m. Telgu, Hindi
Pr.A.Thomas –
Khopoli The Pentecostal Mission House No-135A, Ward No-9, Nr. Lawjee Station, Khopoli, Raigad Dist. Sunday 9a.m. Hindi, Tamil – 02143-661756
Mulund The Pentecostal Mission Sidharth Nagar, Dr.R.P.Road, Mulund(W), Mumbai-400080 Sunday/9a.m/ Telgu,Hindi,Tamil Thursday/6.30p.m/ Telgu,Hindi,Tamil Saturday/6.30p.m/ Telgu,Hindi,Tamil Pr.Prasad Rao 5612857/5650080
Panvel The Pentecostal Mission Palspe Village, Plot No-124, H.No-512, Opp.Gram Panchayat Office, Panvel, Navi Mumbai-410206 Sunday/9a.m/ English,Hindi,Malayalam Wednesday/6.30p.m/ Hindi,Malayalam Saturday/6.30p.m/ Hindi,Malayalam Br.Jaysaleen Roy 02142-20153
Vasai(W) The Pentecostal Mission Nr. Priya Housing Society, Michael Gomes Road, Chuina, Vasai(W), Mumbai-383450 Sunday/9a.m/Hindi,Marathi, Wednesday/6.30p.m/Hindi,Malayalam Saturday/6.30p.m/Hindi,Malayalam Shaji Philip 912-349988.
Vile Parle(W) The Pentecostal Mission 216, St.Francis Road, Off S.V. Road, Vile Parle(W), Mumbai-400056 Sunday/9a.m/English,Hindi,Tamil Tuesday/6.30p.m/English,Hindi,Malaylam Saturday/6.30p.m/Hindi,Malaylam Br.Anil 6106048/6109905
TRUE SANCTIFICATION AS FOLLOWS:
YES, AS SAM SAID TPM SHOULD REFRAIN JUDGING OTHER MINISTRIES REGARDING THEIR PROSPERITY.
TPM SHOULD STOP USING SPECIAL BIBLE STUDIES TO CRITICISE OTHER MINISTRIES.
TPM SHOULD STOP VISITING THE BELIEVERS FROM OTHER CHURCHES AND SAY, “YOUR PASTOR IS MARRIED BUT WE ARE NOT. WE DEVOTE TIME FOR YOU…” AND STEAL THE BELIEVERS FROM OTHER CHURCHES.
TPM SHOULD STOP MISINTERPRETING SCRIPTURES TO CREATE AN IDENTITY FOR THEMSELVES AND THUS DIVIDING THE UNITY IN THE UNIVERSAL CHURCH OF GOD.
TPM SHOULD LET THEIR BELIEVERS VISIT OTHER MINISTRIES AND GIVE THEIR TITHES TO OTHER MINISTERS. FOR ALL MINISTERS BELONG TO THE UNIVERSAL CHURCH OF GOD.
TPM SHOULD STOP PORTRAYING THEMSELVES AS “HOLIER THAN THOU” BY THEIR WHITE-CULTURE DISPLAY BEFORE OTHER CHRISTIANS. THEY SHOULD STOP THEIR FALSE HUMILITY AND EXTERNAL SHOW OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.
TPM SHOULD LEARN TO APPLY BIBLE VERSES APPROPRIATELY. NOT CHOOSING ONE AND SWALLOWING 1 TIMOTHY 3:5 AS IF IT DID NOT EXIST. TPM SHOULD CEASE FROM CONTRADICTING BY CLAIMING THAT MARRIAGE IS DEFILING AND CONDUCTING MARRIAGES AT THE SAME TIME!!
TPM SHOULD STOP WORKER-GLORIFICATION AND STOP TELLING THE BLATANT LIE OF MELCHIZEDEK CALLING WHEN THE BIBLE CLAIMS THAT ONLY JESUS IS CALLED AFTER THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK.
NO USE OF SANCTIFICATION MEETINGS IN TPM WITHOUT GIVING UP THE SINS OF DISTORTING SCRIPTURE TO GLORIFY THEMSELVES!!
WHEN THE TPM MISINTERPRETATIONS ARE HIGHLIGHTED SAM SHOULD STOP CALLING THEM AS “JUDGING” AND TRY TO MISLEAD PEOPLE. INSTEAD SAM SHOULD UNDERSTAND THAT GOD RESISTS THE “PROUD” AND TELL TPM WORKERS TO REMOVE THE WORKER-BRAGGING LINES IN SONGS AND SERMONS.
MAY GOD OPEN YOUR EYES OF UNDERSTANDING.
Sam,
Beautifully written… !!!
“JUDGE not, that ye be not judged.
or
Judge ye be judged.”
Jim.
Sister Rachel C…
Your existense is the proof of your creator….!!! Thats the proof I wanted to convey you since this loong.. atlast you asked me…!!!
And if you say that this proof is invalid, then you should have exact reasons for your existence!!!
Jim.
Wicked shall prosper. What prosperity for one in this world? No one in the world was richer than King Solomon who give much important in his life acquiring wisdom than riches?
When one die in this world? Even one possess billions of dollors or hecters of land he will get only six feet? not even quarter to six.
Every one should leave this world one day and should pay their debts (for sin) and stand before judgement before God, I don’t know will any one have strength to argue before God.
By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter;
Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
Jim,
I don’t want to get vulgar, but I think my existence is due to the fact that my parents had sex. I doubt there was any divine intervention in it. If you were to ask my about my ancestors – they maybe the Neathandral man…who is supposed to have evolved over millions of years from the ape…
Don’t immediately ask me why monkeys are now not turning human……
If you are going to argue about God’s 7-day creation stunt over Darwin’s evolutionary theory…..I think its easier and more logical to believe Darwin than Moses’s account of events
Jim,
About my views on the Genisis version of things, if you have the time do check out
https://rachelchitra.wordpress.com/2008/08/06/the-bible-says/
https://rachelchitra.wordpress.com/2008/08/07/the-bible-says-or-the-holy-goof-ups-ii/
https://rachelchitra.wordpress.com/2008/08/07/the-bible-says-or-holy-goof-ups-iii/
https://rachelchitra.wordpress.com/2008/08/11/god-takes-revenge/
https://rachelchitra.wordpress.com/2008/08/19/the-biblical-contradictions-it-saysbut-then-it-says/
Jim,
I know you believe in God. So even if you believe in God, remember the Bible was written by human beings – with human emotions like love, kindness, prejudice, sexism and even racism…
So it might bring less strife if we remember the Bible was written by human hands and not get too legalistic about things.
If you believe in God – try to believe in a God who is merciful, kind and quick to forgive us for our weaknesses rather than a legalistic God.
Jim,
I wrote that “we shouldn’t be too legalistic over the Bible” with you, Susan, Anil & Rachel Verghese in mind. If you are Christians, I am assuming all of you think you belong to the body of Christ.
Since heaven is supposed to be non-denominational (I doubt that there are separate gates marked “Roman Catholics only,” “Pentecostals only,” or “Anglicans only” in heaven) debates on theology really need not get personal.
Christ will judge you on your sins (i.e. actions not views/ theology).
So in the process of debating over views/theology (which do not guarentee any entry to heaven, only the grace of God does), let us not call each other stupid or fanatical…
We can abuse a person’s views but never the person.
TPM’S DECEPTION
IT IS TPM’S AGE OLD STRATEGY TO BRAND SOMEONE SAYING, “DO NOT JUDGE US” WHEN SOMEONE IS HIGHLIGHTING TPM’S SCRIPTURAL MISINTERPRETATIONS.
TPM CRAVES TO RESERVE THE RIGHT TO DISTORT THE MEANINGS OF SCRIPTURE AS THEY LIKE.
WHEN SOMEONE WARNS THE TPM BELIEVERS THAT SUCH AND SUCH DECEPTION IS FOUND IN TPM, IMMEDIATELY TPM FANATS BECOME DESPERATE TO SWEEP THE TPM’S MISINTERPRETATIONS UNDER THE CARPET SWIFTLY.
THEY HAVE BEEN DOING THIS ARTISTICALLY FOR DECADES. THEY WOULD NOT EVEN HESITATE TO THREATEN THOSE WHO EXPOSE THE TRUTH WITH CURSES AND VIOLENCE. THERE ARE MANY TESTIMONIES TO THAT.
TPM ARE LIKE COMMUNISTS. THEY WILL COVER UP ALL IMMORALITY. THROW OUT THOSE WHO EXPOSE THE TRUTH. ASSAULT THOSE WHO CHANGE THE NAME OF THE CHURCH.
AFTER ALL THESE THEY WILL SCREAM AND PREACH ABOUT THE COMING OF THE LORD AND ABOUT SANCTIFICATION!!
NOTICE THEIR SONGS, SERMONS AND BIBLE STUDIES AND THEIR SO-CALLED DEEPER TRUTH (LIES) BOOKS. THEY ALL HAVE ONE OBJECTIVE. TO GLORIFY THEIR UNBIBLICAL MELCHIZEDEK CALLING AND PRESERVE THEIR IDENTITY.
THEY ARE DECEIVED TO SUCH AN EXTENT THAT THEY DO NOT REALISE THE DARKNESS OF VAINFUL PRIDE THAT LURKS AMONG THEM. THEY ARE LEAST BOTHERED ABOUT UNITY AMONG CHRISTIANS. THEIR ONLY GOAL IS TO SHOW THEMSELVES AS “HOLIER THAN THOU”.
REFRAIN FROM JUDGING THOSE WHO EXPOSE THE TPM’S SCRIPTURAL MISINTERPRETATIONS. INSTEAD HUMBLE BEFORE GOD AND ADMIT THE ERRORS DONE AND REPENT.
Hi Rachel,
May be u are right.. Man evolved from apes.. but from where did ape come from??? from monkeys?? but monkeys from where??..
Darwin says that the life was evolved out of sea in the form of FIRST uni-cellular organism, then multi-cellular and so on to become a fish and then some mamel and so on till a man..
Now to blive that cell originated of its own… its IMPOSSIBILE, with DNA codes a 100 billion times more complex than that of binary codings by which computers are created. It involves complex procedures like coding, debugging, and testing. And again it has so many phases of testing…. Now to blive that cell just popped up into existence….. I mean… to say that “my computer just popped up into existence” would be more intellectual.
The functionality of a cell (which we cant see with our naked eys) is so complex that its a million times more complex than even the most complex and powerful electric powerhouse of Kentucky. The machines that we see is human-made-machine. But what about the biological machines???? It just popped up into existence?? Hard to believe…
Read my theory of evolution of a cocal cola can (taken from a website)
Billions of years ago, a big bang produced a large rock. As the rock cooled, sweet brown liquid formed on its surface. As time passed, aluminum formed itself into a can, a lid, and a tab. Millions of years later, red and white paint fell from the sky, and formed itself into the words “Coca Cola 12 fluid ounces.”
Of course, my theory is an insult to your intellect, because you know that if the Coca Cola can is made, there must be a maker. If it is designed, there must be a designer. The alternative, that it happened by chance or accident, is to move into an intellectual free zone.
It is very clear:****The alternative, that it happened by chance or accident, is to move into an intellectual free zone***
The banana-the atheist’s nightmare.
Note that the banana:
Is shaped for human hand
Has non-slip surface
Has outward indicators of inward content:
Green-too early,
Yellow-just right,
Black-too late.
Has a tab for removal of wrapper
Is perforated on wrapper
Bio-degradable wrapper
Is shaped for human mouth
Has a point at top for ease of entry
Is pleasing to taste buds
Is curved towards the face to make eating process easy.
Law of physics (human knowledge) says… “nothing can be created out of nothing, and again it says, “no energy can be created but changes its form from one to another”
Then again you say Bible was written by the hands of human… was surely written by the hands of prophets (ofcourse men) by the inspiration of holy spirit. Now you’ll be like “what non-sense??”
That can proved.. because no other religion’s holy book says (except Koran) or declares with such an authority over a 1000 times words like “I am the Lord….”, “Thus saith the Lord…”, “I am Lord thy God… they shall be My people” etc etc..
Also no other book in the world (written by men) mentions the prophesies with such an exactness that even Nostradamus fails..
Following are few examples….
1: Jeremiah 33:22 (written 2500 years ago): “As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured.”
The Bible claimed that there are billions of stars (“host of heaven” is the biblical term for the stars). When it made this statement, no one knew how vast the numbers of stars were as only about 1,100 were observable. Now we know that there are billions of stars, and that they cannot be numbered.
2: Job 26:7 (written 3500 years ago): “He stretches out the north over the empty place, and hangs the earth upon nothing.”
The Bible claimed that the earth freely floated in space. Science then thought that the earth sat on a large animal. We now know that the earth has a free float in space.
3:(The best one) Hebrews 11:3 (written 2000 years ago): “Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.”
The Bible claims that all creation is made of invisible material. Science then was ignorant of the subject. We now know that the entire creation is made of invisible elements called “atoms.”
4:Leviticus 17:11 (written 3000 years ago): “For the life of the flesh is in the blood.”
The Scriptures declare that blood is the source of life. Up until 120 years ago, sick people were “bled”, and many died because of the practice. We now know that blood is the source of life. If you lose your blood, you will lose your life.
5:Leviticus 15:13 (written 3000 years ago): “And when he that has an issue is cleansed of his issue; then he shall number to himself seven days for his cleansing, and wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in running water, and shall be clean.”
The Bible said that when dealing with disease, hands should be washed under running water. Up until 100 years ago doctors washed their hands in a basin of still water, resulting in the death of multitudes. We now know that doctors must wash their hands under running water. The Encyclopedia Britannica documents that in 1845, a young doctor in Vienna named Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis was horrified at the terrible death rate of women who were dying after giving birth in hospitals. As many as 30% of those giving birth died. The Doctor noted that doctors would examine the bodies of those who had died, then, without washing their hands, go straight to the next wards and examine expectant mothers. This was their normal practice, because the presence of microscopic diseases was unknown. Doctor Semmelweis insisted that doctors wash their hands before examinations, and the death rate immediately dropped down to 2%
6:Isaiah 40:22 (written 2800 years ago): “It is he that sits upon the circle of the earth.”
The Bible informs us here that the earth is round. At a time when science believed that the earth was flat, it was the Scriptures that inspired Christopher Columbus to sail around the world. He wrote: “It was the Lord who put it into my mind. I could feel His hand upon me . . . there is no question the inspiration was from the Holy Spirit because He comforted me with rays of marvelous illumination from the Holy Scriptures . . .” (From his diary, in reference to his discovery of “the New World”).
7:Job 38:19 (written 3500 years ago). “Where is the way where light dwells?”
Modern man has only just discovered that light (electromagnetic radiation) has a “way,” involving motion traveling at 186,000 miles per second.
8:Genesis 1:1,3 (written 3,450 years ago): “In the beginning God created the Heaven and the earth . . . And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.”
Science expresses the universe in five terms: time, space, matter, power and motion. “In the beginning (time) God created (power) the Heaven (space) and the earth (matter) . . . And the Spirit of God moved (motion) upon the face of the waters.”
9:Why did the dinosaur disappear? This is something that has modern science mystified, but the Bible may have the answer (written 3500 years ago. God Himself is speaking):
“Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eats grass as an ox. Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly. He moves his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together. His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron. He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him. Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play. He lies under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens. The shady trees cover him with their shadow; the willows of the brook compass him about. Behold, he drinks up a river, and hastens not: he trusts that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth. He takes it with his eyes: his nose pierces through snares. (Job 40:15-24).
This was the Largest of all creatures He made.
It was plant-eating (herbivorous).
It had its strength in its hips.
Its tail was like a large tree (a cedar).
It had very strong bones.
Its habitat was among the trees.
Drank massive amounts of water.
His nose pierced through snares.
Then Scripture says, ” . . . He that made him can make his sword approach to him.” In other words, God caused this, the largest of all the creatures He had made, to become extinct.
10:Psalm 8:8: “And the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passes through the paths of the seas.”
What does the Bible mean by “paths” of the seas? The sea is just a huge mass of water, how then could it have “paths?” Man discovered the existence of ocean currents in the 1850’s, but the Bible declared the science of oceanography 2,800 years ago. Matthew Maury (1806- 1873) is considered to be the father of oceanography. He was bedridden during a serious illness and asked his son to read a portion of the Bible to him. While listening, he noticed the expression “paths of the sea.” Upon his recovery, Maury took God at His word and went looking for these paths. His book on oceanography is still considered a basic text on the subject and is still used in universities.
These are just a gyst of the facts that Bible reveals… And the writers who wrote this, were not scientists or doctors any learnt men of those times but merely were pure servants of God.
Thanks Jim for your mail yesterday !!! I just posted them here… hehe
Anil.
Hi Anil,
Science does not answer all the questions with regard to evolution. Remember no one refers to Charles Darwin’s theory as “Law of evolution,”…it’s still a theory & hence the “Theory of Evolution”.
But, as they say in court: “The absence of evidence is no proof.”
Just as Charles Darwin’s theory of evolution cannot be proved, the Bible’s 7-day account of creation also cannot be proved.
If “Nothing can be created out of Nothing,” How did God originate? What is eternity? How did God create trees, plants, human beings, planets and the universe out of nothing?
Whether the Bible was guided by a para-normal spirit or not, you will admit it was written by humans and is subject to human emotions. (A correction I would never abuse anything in the Bible or any other religious text as “nonsense” in a public forum because there are people who deeply believe in it and will get hurt by such irresponsible comments).
You say, no other religious text …. 🙂
But I thought the Torah and the Kuran share the same old testament as the Bible?
Historial events predicted by the Bible and geographical facts related in the Bible:
The Universe has billions of stars (Jeremiah 33:22), Earth revolves around the sun in space (Job 26:7, Isaiah 40:22), hygienic practises (Leviticus 15:13), 6: (written 2800 years ago), existence of dinosaurs and ocean currents show that such discoveries were made by man or God (who exists in the human mind) at the time the Bible was written.
Even in the Vedas & Upanishads, there are texts that the “earth revolves around the sun in space.” Indians had known about the planets and their paths in the universe for so many centuries prior to 450 B.C (450 B.C. is the date of the first compilation of the Torah).
Again there are problems with the dating. Science shows that the earth is 4.54 billion years ago, but the Bible dates the creation of the earth within 10,000 B.C.
Or do you discount the proof of fossils?
Hi Everybobdy
Hi Everybody,
Greetings in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Very sad to see some dear ones waging war of words against TPM. I got saved in 2004. Before that I would strictly oppose the doctrines of TPM. But God by His mercy enlightened my eyes of understanding by his anointing and scriptures. I am not here to justify, but would like to yes as yes and nay as nay (Jam 5:12). Postings from Susan and Moderator Rachel may offend brethren small in faith. (Mat 18:6, 7). So I voice my view on the truth behind the TPM doctrines.
“*The women do not preach in church or elsewhere. You see Paul said women were to be silent in church, so the decree: No woman pastors needed. For was not Eve, the first sinner who enticed Adam to sin, a woman? Anyway these worthy disciples of Apostle Paul (who did not get married) and Apostle Peter (who found the ministry more interesting than the cares of domestic life) do not let women preach or talk in church. A woman’s duty is to listen to the men in the church, for are not men the heads of the family like Christ is the head of the church? I wonder how they always manage to come up with verses that suit their convenience. When I quote the Bible that “men and women are equal in the eyes of God,” I’m the “devil quoting the scriptures.”
By RACHEL
Rachel in all our faith homes Sr. Sisters or Mothers are conducting regular meetings. For you to know this, you should attend the meeting regularly, not just on Sundays.
“ If they associate white with purity is black the colour of the devil and the BMWs, which some of their chief pastors own, the machinations of the devil?”
By Rachel
Before blaming anyone just check the veraciousness of the information you have gathered Rachel. No way that this could be possible in TPM, may be possible elsewhere.
“Otherwise I find it hard to interpret their fanatical devotion to misinterpreting the Bible.”
By Rachel
Here you say that they misinterpret the bible. But you also say below the foll. words.
“I don’t need your advise to “Spend some more time reading and meditating on the word of God,” as I did that for 20 years and found the Bible unjust, irrational and factually incorrect.”
By Rachel
If someone who says the Bible is unjust, irrational and factually incorrect, then how could Rachel correctly interpret the word of God. I ask the Christians who are reading this blog.
So we can come to a conclusion that Rachel cant comment on TPM and its activities.
Now I would like to share certain points with susan.
Hi SUSAN,
“JUST BEWARE OF TPM WHICH IS A WORKER-GLORIFYING CULT. THEY DO THIS BY DISTORTING THE SCRIPTURES.”
By susan
I will not give my glory to another (Is48:11). Not Unto us, O Lord, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, (Psm 115:1). This is the teaching that our saints gives then how come we will glorify the workers, who are the messenger of God (II Co 8:23).
This is what Lord taught me thus far in this spiritual journey.
Not are all perfect or grown in their spiritual life or in their inner man there are people who are still babes in Christ (I Co 3:1). May be what you have said is true taking into account some of them. I hope you would take the verse in spiritual sense. Our TPM Pastors are well aware of the end for self-glorification. Act 12:23 – here Herod died cos he didn’t give the glory to god. When God doesn’t give His glory to another, then how we would glorify them.
“CAN A CHRISTIAN WEAR JEWELS? WHAT IS GOD’S WILL? “
By susan
Yes a Christian can wear jewels. Nowhere in the bible does it say that wearing jewel is a sin. If Bible doest say so then how we TPM people could say that we shouldn’t wear jewel. Susan you have quoted many thing to support wearing jewels. I am not pasting it here. In our congregation our pastor never says that you should forgo you jewel. In our Lord’s Table or Holy Communion there are many who participate with jewels. There are many believers who were jewels in our church.
Then why many of the TPM believers are not wearing jewels? It is out of Love towards God. None of them would be persuaded or threatened with any verse to remove it. It is a consecration for our Lord we are making. Nobody can question our consecration to our Lord. Can you? Some may preach that you should remove it. But our Pastors has taught us and instructed us not to force anybody in this matter or for the matter pertaining to divine healing, which I’ll deal with u latter.There are people who say it is a sin to wear jewel. But it is not? Moreover I Tim 2:9 & I Pt 3:3 Exhorts us to forego this. As we’d like to have complete obedience to His laws we are doing it. Does it hurt anyone in obeying Lords word? “If a man keep my saying he shall never see death” (Jn 8 :51). If you Love me, keep my commandments (Jn 14:15).
Here loving doesn’t mean according to English Oxford Dictionary, but according to what the scripture says. Now a days people doest want to lose anything for the purpose of the Lord’s word. So they try to bring in some erroneous doctrines other than what Bible says (in your case history) to keep what they posses. Moreover God doesn’t judge according to your works but according to your heart.
In my next comment I would reply your other unwarranted things against TPM.
With Love
Sam Robinson. J
Sam Robinson,
I don’t know if you want me to reply to your comment, since you have said “we can come to a conclusion that Rachel cant comment on TPM and its activities” 😉
Rachel
since you are the moderator you own every right to reply.
Sam,
I was just joking 🙂
About the women not preaching in church:
You say: In all our faith homes Sr. Sisters or Mothers are conducting regular meetings.
I say: Women should be given equal authority in church. If men are preaching, women should also be allowed to preach. If men can administer communion, so should women. If men can become pastors, so should women. Relegating women to secondary/ inferior roles of being just prayer support staff does not reflect well on Christian egalitarianism. There are instance in the Bible of women prophetess, women apostles, women judges and women lay preachers. When women could do that in patriarchal set-up more than 2,000 years ago, why not now?
You say: For you to know this, you should attend the meeting regularly, not just on Sundays.
I say: I have not stepped inside a church anytime these last three years…ever since I turned atheist.
You say: If they associate white with purity is black the colour of the devil and the BMWs, which some of their chief pastors own, the machinations of the devil?” By Rachel. Before blaming anyone just check the veraciousness of the information you have gathered Rachel. No way that this could be possible in TPM, may be possible elsewhere.
I say: It was in a lighter vein. I have seen TPM workers dressed only in white. Some of my friends who used to wear coloured salwars were frowned upon during church services. Soon they started coming to church in the traditional white.
You say: If someone who says the Bible is unjust, irrational and factually incorrect, then how could Rachel correctly interpret the word of God. I ask the Christians who are reading this blog.
I say: The Bible is unjust – supporting slavery, patriarchy, etc, irrational and factually incorrect. I was not claiming to correctly interpret the word of God. For me God doesn’t exist…so when I see Christians obsessed with small, small nitty-gritty I wish they could just concentrate on the bigger picture – Christ and his teachings.
Rachel
You said pastors in BMW. I defended that it cant be true. It would be rather good if you do not comment any untrue thing. You know rachel people get offended when you speak ill of their spiritual fathers. Each has his own belief. Right? If its true then its ok. otherwise better dont publish hearsay comments.
Hi Robinson,
One of my friends was in the TPM church. Even my grandparents used to be in the TPM church, when it called CPM.
The cars are not owned by the individual pastors, but by the church.
I think in the TPM, they are not allowed to own any personal possessions..Right?
I know people get offended when someone says something ill about their spiritual fathers. But I am not for an ideology which can actually cause the death of individuals because they did not seek medical attention.
About hearsay…in a way you maybe right, since I have not gone to the TPM church too many times and my sources are other people. But then there’s something vaguely sinister about that church for me.
Bunch of bullying happening here. Turn to God Brothers and Sisters from your wicked ways. God Bless You.
DEAR ROBINSON,
1) IF WORKERS DO NOT FORCE TO REMOVE JEWELS WHY IS WATER BAPTISM AND COMMUNION NOT GIVEN TO BELIEVERS WEARING JEWELS? PLEASE EXPLAIN
2) YOU SAID, “Our TPM Pastors are well aware of the end for self-glorification.”
MY REPLY: YOUR PROBLEM IS YOU JOINED TPM FAIRLY RECENTLY IN 2004. SO I SUGGEST YOU GET AWARE OF ALL TPM DOCTRINES AND CHECK THEM WITH SCRIPTURES. DO NOT MAKE MAKE ANY CONCLUSION BEFORE THAT.
READ THE MESSAGES ON 18TH DECEMBER ’08, 4TH JAN ’09 AND 8TH JAN ’09 IN THIS BLOG SITE. THEN YOU WILL GET SOME KNOWLEDGE ABOUT TPM’S SELF GLORIFICATION AND THEIR SCRIPTURAL MISINTERPRETATION.
3) FURTHERMORE TPM DENOUNCES MEDICINES AND DOCTORS AS LACK OF FAITH AND SIN BUT STRANGELY THEY GIVE COMMUNION TO THOUSANDS OF TPM DOCTORS AND NURSES. IS IT TO WELCOME THEIR TITHES INTO THE CHURCH COFFERS? THIS IS THEIR HYPOCRICY.
FURTHERMORE MANY MORE SCRIPTURAL MISINTERPRETATIONS AND CONTRADICTIONS OF TPM WILL BE ADDRESSED HERE WHICH I BELIEVE WILL OPEN YOUR EYES. GOD BLESS YOU.
READ ABOUT THEIR MISINTERPRETATIONS, TRUST AND DEPEND ON THE HOLY SPIRIT, IDENTIFY (NOT RATIONALISE) THE TPM FALSE TEACHINGS, LIVE AND SERVE FOR GOD AND LOVE CHRISTIANS OF ALL DENOMINATIONS.
TPM members pls read this….
http://www.watchman.org/cults/legalismzeal.htm
I however do respect your zeal, but wonder why you ppl go extra-biblical!!!
Your statements
“If “Nothing can be created out of Nothing,” How did God originate? What is eternity? How did God create trees, plants, human beings, planets and the universe out of nothing?”—-
Thats the difference between human and God. God does things beyong man’s imagination and the question on existence of God?? We human are not enough privileged to raise that question on HIS existence. Bible says that “in the latter days men shall be rebellious and would ask for signs”
Let me explain this to you: Suppose you draw a circle on te piece of paper. This circle is a 2d image. Now if I keep a small cricket ball in front of it, supposing both has got life, the circle would be able to see aother 2d object standing before him, althou the ball is 3d because the circle’s view, strength and perception capability is limited to 2d and not beyond that. Same is the case with man.
And you say the following:
“Again there are problems with the dating. Science shows that the earth is 4.54 billion years ago, but the Bible dates the creation of the earth within 10,000 B.C.”
—The Bible says in the first verse that the “In the BEGINNING God created the heaven and the earth and it was void” Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters”
Now this so called BEGINNING is still unknown. Bible scientists are still making the research on it. It was void and formless (the theory of all the continents to be one big piece of land and blah blah… may be linked to this)…
God saw that since it (earth and whole universe that He created “in the BEGINNING”) was formless and void,, He started creating things. bible clearly says that for God 1000 yrs is as 1 day and 1 day as 1000 yrs. What a great stunt!!! I mean.. too good but 7 days was time taken for the creation of life not earth.
You say:
“Even in the Vedas & Upanishads, there are texts that the “earth revolves around the sun in space.” Indians had known about the planets and their paths in the universe”
Ofcourse yes India was one of the countries having very high level of knowledge in stars, its positions ad planets. One of the three wise men was from Indore, India, The study reveals.
For Susan… (bit out of topic of discussion here)
Susann:–“IF WORKERS DO NOT FORCE TO REMOVE JEWELS WHY IS WATER BAPTISM AND COMMUNION NOT GIVEN TO BELIEVERS WEARING JEWELS? PLEASE EXPLAIN”
Me:–“Last tpm convention in Panvel saw many believers taking water baptism wearing jewels… Because thier husbands were not saved. They are also allowed to take part in the holy table…. So Susan.. I think you need some brush up of tpm doctrines before you point ur fingers at them”
Jim,
You say, “Bible scientists are still carrying out research on it.” That means you have no proof, yet you believe.
So your Christian faith is based on personal conviction not facts.
Good for you!
But I don’t have that “belief” or “faith.”
For me I love the cold comfort of science and facts, hence my “belief” or “disbelief” is different 🙂
1. BELIEVERS WEARING JEWELS ARE GIVEN WATER BAPTISM AND COMMUNION ON A CONDITION. THAT CONDITION IS IF THEIR HUSBANDS ARE NOT YET SAVED.
2. SO DOES IT MEAN THAT BELIEVERS WHOSE HUSBANDS ARE SAVED ARE ALSO GIVEN BAPTISM AND COMMUNION WITH JEWELS? OR THEY ARE REFUSED BAPTISM AND COMMUNION? PLS EXPLAIN.
3. MOREOVER, JIM MAY NOT KNOW, MAYBE HE IS NEW;
IF BELIEVERS (WHOSE HUSBANDS ARE NOT SAVED) ARE GIVEN BAPTISM AND COMMUNION, IT IS NOT PART OF THE DOCTRINE OF TPM BUT THE COMPROMISES THAT TPM HAS MADE RECENTLY. HOPE JIM UNDERSTANDS THAT.
4. STILL JIM IS VERY QUIET ON WHY COMMUNION IS GIVEN IN TPM FOR THE THOUSANDS OF DOCTORS AND NURSES (WHOM JIM CONSIDERS AS WITCH DOCTORS AND BLACK MAGICIANS). WOULD HE EXPLAIN?
Susan
you say:BELIEVERS WEARING JEWELS ARE GIVEN WATER BAPTISM AND COMMUNION ON A CONDITION. THAT CONDITION IS IF THEIR HUSBANDS ARE NOT YET SAVED.
Let me remind you that God has clearly revealed through His scriptures to whom I should keep my fellowship with. And for your above said words, I am saved and anointed, and I got recently married. My wife still takes part in the Lords Table wearing jewels. I am not forcing my wife to put off her jewels, nor did my pastors. All that condition you have mentioned are utter non-sense(only that condition). I would like to keep in touch with you tomorrow to answer all your other comments regarding TPM. For now bye.
Dear Bloggers in Christ,
Rather than justifying each others so called “TPM & its principles” its better that we take time to answer ask our own conscience what are we really seeking here. I’m not here to comment on what TPM is and what it does, but yes one things sure, Jesus has has come to this world to save our from our bondages and that we may be delivered. Christianity is all about living an Christ like life, we cannot be so called saints, but since we believe in the word of God (Holy Bible) we try to abide by its principles. It was man who has created different Christian dominions and have set thier own principles / doctrines which they feel. Its only the “faith” that takes you to these chruches / donominations. I’m an pentecostal believer and my father was saved by an vision from heaven about 3 men in white and shortly the same person visiting an village the 3rd day. This was truly distined by God. This is not applicable to everyone. Many are called but few are chosen. preaching and have lived in faith since 29 years (not boasting), but its only the grace of God which is leading u. Now if this was destined by God, we would not be abided in this faith. My family lived an pentecostal life foresaking all. All have thier own prospective of faith and every man is happy therein. No one has a right to justify / blame any christian faith.
Rather than questioning each other, i think its time that we pray that his soul may not be destroyed, but be SAVED, this is what for Jesus came to this world. Let Sacrifice made by Jesus be honoured and understand the deeper truths about his sacrifice for Mankind.
May God give us grace to have the deeper understanding of our own faith so that we may live with Him forever.
That who is Holy, Let him be Holy still
that who is righteous, let him be righteous still
That who is unjust, let him be unjust still,
That who is unholy, let him be unholy still,
Let the name our Lord Jesus be Glorified.
Richard.
Susan,
I’m not quite…. but rather wondering.. what is it that u’ve achieved thus far by commenting against tpm and its workers.. Is it some kind of merit?? Anybody certifying you as a critic?? I wud like to know.. I read the answers by Robinson on jewels, long back. I thought as a wise girl, you would have understood the same.
pork taken in AS medicine??? Theres is a difference between taken in AS medicine and taking medicine in. “Yesterday I went to a medical shop and asked for a piece of pork. The medical shopkeeper called me a fool and rebuked me and told me to goto a “Highway Inn” round the corner where you get the best of pork salami….. Then again I went to the inn and asked for pork-medicine… he looked at me saying… son are you ok??”
What does this mean.. time and again I’ve been trying to express that pork is just another food as you taken in rice.
For me rice, dal, chicken all are LIKE medicine. If dont have it, then I might develop serious illness or whatever in the time being…
Hi Rachel C
“You say, “Bible scientists are still carrying out research on it.” That means you have no proof, yet you believe.
So your Christian faith is based on personal conviction not facts.
Good for you!
But I don’t have that “belief” or “faith.”
For me I love the cold comfort of science and facts, hence my “belief” or “disbelief” is different “
Ofcourse Bible scientist are carrying out reseach… And ofcourse proof is there.. “the proof is the existence of Earth and the fossil-study which dates back to billions and billions of years…!!!”
Christian faith is based on faith ofcourse yes. But in science too there is this concept of “faith” coming into picture… Now if I say… you have a brain, It needs to be prooved according to the demonstratable, empirical, protocols of science. But then I’ve never seen your brain, or touched it or smelt it. In this case I’m sorry to say, science prohibits me to blive that u have a brain… how can i blive in anything that u argue??
What do you think of the existence of cold? Is there anything called cold?? No. Cold is nothing but the absence of heat. beacuse then u wud have cold–>super cold–> mega cold etc.. but it tocuches a certain point where theres 100% absence of heat and stops. But in case of heat…. you have more heat, super heat, mega heat and so on….
You say: “For me I love the cold comfort of science and facts, hence my “belief” or “disbelief” is different “
“This is a clear indication as I mentioned earlier in my post;
The alternative, is that you are trying to move into an intellectual free zone”
And you seem to have just ignored my theory of evolution of coca cola can.. anwer the followiing plz… [Taken from external source, encyclopedia and web, Nothing to my credit]
Q:The person who thinks the Coca Cola can had no designer is:
a) Intelligent,
b) Fool,
c) Has an ulterior motive for denying the obvious
Did you know that the eye has 40,000,000 nerve endings, the focusing muscles move an estimated 100,000 times a day, and the retina contains 137,000,000 light sensitive cells?
Charles Darwin said,
“To suppose that the eye…could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest possible degree.”
If man cannot begin to make a human eye, how could anyone in his right mind think that eyes formed by mere chance? In fact, man cannot make anything from nothing. We don’t know how to do it. We can re-create, reform, develop . . . but we cannot create even one grain of sand from nothing. Yet, the eye is only a small part of the most sophisticated part of creation-the human body
George Gallup, the famous statistician, said,
“I could prove God statistically; take the human body alone; the chance that all the functions of the individual would just happen, is a statistical monstrosity.”
Albert Einstein said,
“Everyone who is seriously interested in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the universe;a spirit vastly superior to man, and one in the face of which our modest powers must feel humble.”
Now my test for you….
A. Do you know of any building that didn’t have a builder?
___ YES ___ NO
B. Do you know of any painting that didn’t have a painter?
___ YES ___ NO
C. Do you know of any car that didn’t have a maker?
___ YES ___ NO
If you answered “YES” for any of the above, give details:
Could I convince you that I dropped 50 oranges onto the ground and they randomly fell into 10 columns and 5 rows? The logical conclusion is that someone with an intelligent mind put them there. The odds that ten oranges would fall by accident into a straight line are mind-boggling, let alone five rows of ten.
My test for you; another one
A. From the atom to the universe, is there order?
___ YES ___ NO
B. Did it happen by accident?
___ YES ___ NO
C. Or, must there have been an intelligent mind?
___ YES ___ NO
D. What are the chances of 50 oranges falling by chance
into ten rows of five oranges? ______________________
If you answered “YES” for any of the above, give details
I’ll come back on this…. [I’m not considering Bible or any holy scriptures of any religions here… Its philosophical… the topic is “if God exists or not”]
Hi Jim,
You say: “The proof is the existence of Earth and the fossil-study which dates back to billions and billions of years…!!!”
The proof of the existence of Earth and fossils, which dates back to billions and billions of years, is proof that the Bible’s 7-day creation story cannot be true.
People, usually believe they have brains because of anatomy reports, post-mortem reports, scans, EMR, etc. If you can find an anatomy reports, post-mortem reports, scans, EMR of God, do get back. Just teasing!
Absence of heat is cold. Absence of proof of God is atheism!
“This is a clear indication as I mentioned earlier in my post; The alternative, is that you are trying to move into an intellectual free zone. Q:The person who thinks the Coca Cola can had no designer is: a) Intelligent, b) Fool, c) Has an ulterior motive for denying the obvious.”
Frankly, your comments are insulting. Try to be more Christian (Christ-like not Church-like) in your debate!
When you debate, attack the ideology, not the person.
Here ur trying to attack the person and his/her level of intelligence (there are other atheists out here too, so politeness would be appreciated. Then again all of us have degrees plus jobs so we are not retarded or institutionalized).
“Eye has 40,000,000 nerve endings, the focusing muscles move an estimated 100,000 times a day, and the retina contains 137,000,000 light sensitive cells.”
So? The human body is complex…Next you quote Darwin, George Gallup and Albert Einstein. What have opinions got to do with facts? (George W Bush says he’s waging a holy war. Does that make the dirty war in Iraq holy?)
Your logic: Man cannot reproduce everything in nature so there must be a God who created it.
I say: Your logic is again your opinion. Where are the facts?
About that test for me (Do remember this is not high-school)
Do you know of any God, who was not immortal? Where did he/she originate? Does your God have a gender or is he above these things? Does your God procreate?
Since you say God did not have a creator, man also need not have a creator!
Next you talk about probability (50 oranges, etc) and then your logic (again your opinion, no fact).
Since you prefer opinions and not facts, have you heard?
Baron d’Holbach saying: “All children are born Atheists; they have no idea of God.”
Or George H. Smith saying: “The man who is unacquainted with theism is an atheist because he does not believe in a god. This category would also include the child with the conceptual capacity to grasp the issues involved, but who is still unaware of those issues. The fact that this child does not believe in god qualifies him as an atheist.”
Bhagat Singh says: “’Belief’ softens the hardships, even can make them pleasant. In God man can find very strong consolation and support. Without Him, the man has to depend upon himself. To stand upon one’s own legs amid storms and hurricanes is not a child’s play.”
“If, as you believe, there is an almighty, omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent God-who created the earth or world, please let me know why did he create it ? This world of woes and miseries, a veritable, eternal combination of numberless tragedies: Not a single soul being perfectly satisfied.
Pray, don’t say that it is His Law: If he is bound by any law, he is not omnipotent. He is another slave like ourselves. Please don’t say that it is his enjoyment. Nero burnt one Rome. He killed a very limited number of people. He created very few tragedies, all to his perfect enjoyment. And what is his place in History? By what names do the historians mention him? All the venomous epithets are showered upon him. Pages are blackened with invective diatribes condemning Nero, the tyrant, the heartless, the wicked.”
In what way is God better?
“The proof of the existence of Earth and fossils, which dates back to billions and billions of years, is proof that the Bible’s 7-day creation story cannot be true.”
Ofcourse yes….. I think you are seldom reading completely what I’m posting….. I said…”The proof of the existence of Earth and fossils, which dates back to billions and billions of years, is proof that the Earth was created in the “BEGINNING”… The “BEGINNING” which is not mentioned in Bible. It says.. God is Alpha and Omega… Having no genesis Bible’s
And your last question after so much of comparison with tyrants and other kings in the history… “In what way is God better?” is a clear indicaition that you are more of agnostic… knowing that indeed some God exists but dont know who??
“Absence of proof of God is atheism!” Asking for proof is exactly as you dont have proof for establishing the fact WITH prrof that God doesnt exists…
Ofcourse yes….. I think you are seldom reading completely what I’m posting….. I said…”The proof of the existence of Earth and fossils, which dates back to billions and billions of years, is proof that the Earth was created in the “BEGINNING”… The “BEGINNING” which is not mentioned in Bible. It says.. God is Alpha and Omega… Having no genesis Bible’s
Fossils are the preserved remains or traces of animals, plants, and other organisms. When these are dated millions of years ago, how did your God create them in 10,000 B.C. as per the Bible?
<i>”In what way is God better?” is a clear indicaition that you are more of agnostic… knowing that indeed some God exists but dont know who??
Nothing of that sort! It was a quote from Bhagat Singh, who is again an atheist not an agnostic. For argument’s sake, he was saying if God was there, could he have allowed such horrible things to happen?
Jim, ur asking for proof? You started this debate on my blog. I told you I was not keen on a debate. You have no proof that God exists. Yet you keep on coming back to me to argue that he does.
You know that your belief or faith is based on personal conviction and not facts.
I keep on asking for facts and no facts are forthcoming.
If you want to believe in God, good for you!
I don’t believe in God or any other supernatural force.
You have no proof that God exists….. Time and again I’ve been trying to tell you that existence of life is the proof of existence of God….
Now…. The declaration “There is no God” is what is known as an absolute statement. For an absolute statement to be true, I must have absolute knowledge.
Here is another absolute statement: “There is no gold in China.” [All from external source… nothing to my credit]
What do I need to have for that statement to be true?
A. No knowledge of China.
___ YES ___ NO
B. Partial knowledge of China.
___ YES ___ NO
C. Absolute knowledge of China.
___ YES ___ NO
Agin I see that you are answering to any of my questions….
Here… “C” is the correct answer. For the statement to be true, I must know that there is no gold in China, or the statement is incorrect. To say “There is no God,” and to be correct in the statement, I must be omniscient.
I must know how many hairs are upon every head, every thought of every human heart, every detail of history, every atom within every rock…nothing is hidden from my eyes…I know the intimate details of the secret love-life of the fleas on the back of the black cat of Napoleon’s great-grandmother. To make the absolute statement “There is no God.” I must have absolute knowledge that there isn’t one.
First, almost every question you have about suffering humanity etc., can be adequately answered.
Second, we have faith in plenty of things we don’t understand.
Did you understand the mechanics of television before you turned it on? Probably not. You took a step of faith, turned it on, and after it worked, understanding how it worked wasn’t that important. We accept that there are unseen television waves right in front of our eyes. We can’t see them because they are invisible. For them to manifest, we need a receiver, then we can enjoy the experience of television.
God is not flesh and blood. He is an eternal Spirit-immortal and invisible. Like the television waves, He cannot be experienced until the “receiver” is switched on. Here is something you will find hard to believe: Jesus said, “He who has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him” (John 14:21).
Either that is true or it isn’t. Jesus Christ says that He will manifest Himself to anyone who obeys Him. Approach the subject the same way you approached your first television set. Just take a small step of faith. If it works, enjoy it, if it doesn’t, forget it.
Or have you an ulterior motive? Could it be that the “atheist” can’t find God, for the same reason a thief can’t find a policeman? Could it be that your love for sin is clouding your good judgment? If the Bible is true, and Jesus Christ has “abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the Gospel,” then you owe it to yourself just to check it out. God will never let you down. Thank you for taking your time in reading my posts….
Again I say…. “approach the subject the same way you approached your first television set. Just take a small step of faith. If it works, enjoy it, if it doesn’t, forget it.”
Now I have no regrets… This is my last post….
Thank you…
existence of life is the proof of existence of God?
That’s mean you believe God exists in all things? That God exists in every atom? If God exists in man, is man God?
I ASKED THE FOLLOWING CLARIFICATIONS:
1. BELIEVERS WEARING JEWELS ARE GIVEN WATER BAPTISM AND COMMUNION ON A CONDITION. THAT CONDITION IS IF THEIR HUSBANDS ARE NOT YET SAVED.
(Was Robinson’s wife given water baptism with her jewels on? He has not answered this yet))
2. MOREOVER, ROBINSON MAY NOT KNOW THE FOLLOWING, YES HE IS NEW;
“IF BELIEVERS (WHOSE HUSBANDS ARE NOT SAVED) ARE GIVEN BAPTISM AND COMMUNION, IT IS NOT PART OF THE DOCTRINE OF TPM BUT THE COMPROMISES THAT TPM HAS MADE RECENTLY. HOPE ROBINSON UNDERSTANDS THAT.
3. STILL JIM IS VERY QUIET ON WHY COMMUNION IS GIVEN IN TPM FOR THE THOUSANDS OF DOCTORS AND NURSES (WHOM JIM CONSIDERS AS WITCH DOCTORS AND BLACK MAGICIANS). WOULD HE EXPLAIN? JIM IS VERY VERY ELUSIVE!! EVEN ROBINSON HASN’T YET ANSWERED THIS!!
4. MOREOVER ROBINSON HAS NOT ANSWERED ON THE FOLLOWING MESSAGES ON 18TH DECEMBER ‘08, 4TH JAN ‘09 AND 8TH JAN ‘09 IN THIS BLOG SITE. (FALSE DOCTRINE OF MELCHIZEDEK’S CALLING FOR WORKERS)
5. FURTHERMORE TPM DENOUNCES MEDICINES AND DOCTORS AS LACK OF FAITH AND SIN BUT STRANGELY THEY GIVE COMMUNION TO THOUSANDS OF TPM DOCTORS AND NURSES. IS IT TO WELCOME THEIR TITHES INTO THE CHURCH COFFERS? THIS IS THEIR HYPOCRICY.
HOPE TO HEAR FROM THEM.
I ASKED THE FOLLOWING CLARIFICATIONS.
1. BELIEVERS WEARING JEWELS ARE GIVEN WATER BAPTISM AND COMMUNION ON A CONDITION. THAT CONDITION IS IF THEIR HUSBANDS ARE NOT YET SAVED.
(Was Robinson’s wife given water baptism with her jewels on? He has not answered this yet))
2. MOREOVER, ROBINSON MAY NOT KNOW THE FOLLOWING, YES HE IS NEW;
“IF BELIEVERS (WHOSE HUSBANDS ARE NOT SAVED) ARE GIVEN BAPTISM AND COMMUNION, IT IS NOT PART OF THE DOCTRINE OF TPM BUT THE COMPROMISES THAT TPM HAS MADE RECENTLY. HOPE ROBINSON UNDERSTANDS THAT.
3. STILL JIM IS VERY QUIET ON WHY COMMUNION IS GIVEN IN TPM FOR THE THOUSANDS OF DOCTORS AND NURSES (WHOM JIM CONSIDERS AS WITCH DOCTORS AND BLACK MAGICIANS). WOULD HE EXPLAIN? JIM IS VERY VERY ELUSIVE!! EVEN ROBINSON HASN’T YET ANSWERED THIS!!
4. MOREOVER ROBINSON HAS NOT ANSWERED ON THE FOLLOWING MESSAGES ON 18TH DECEMBER ‘08, 4TH JAN ‘09 AND 8TH JAN ‘09 IN THIS BLOG SITE. (FALSE DOCTRINE OF MELCHIZEDEK’S CALLING FOR WORKERS)
5. HOPE RICHARD LEARNS TO ADMIT FALSE DOCTRINES AND REPENT RATHER THAN BLAME THE TRUTH EXPOSURES AS “BLAMING”.
6. IT IS TPM’S AGE OLD STRATEGY TO BLAME THOSE WHO EXPOSE TRUTH AND CALL THEM “JUDGING AND BLAMING”. IT IS JUST THEIR REFUSAL TO REPENT FROM FALSE DOCTRINES.
LET TRUTH BE CONSIDERED MORE IMPORTANT THAN MAN-MADE FALSE DOCTRINES SEEN IN TPM.
The declaration “There is no God” is what is known as an absolute statement. For an absolute statement to be true, I must have absolute knowledge.
I don’t believe in God, I’m an atheist. But I didn’t know that I had to have absolute knowledge to be an atheist.
There are four forms of practical atheism:
• Absence of religious motivation—belief in gods does not motivate moral action, religious action, or any other form of action;
• Active exclusion of the problem of gods and religion from intellectual pursuit and practical action;
• Indifference—the absence of any interest in the problems of gods and religion; or
• Ignorance—lacking any idea of gods
For me, all three of the above reasons apply.
• Your argument about there is no gold in China, makes you think I belong to the fourth category – Ignorance—lacking any idea of gods. That is also ok. As long as you recognise I’m an atheist that’s fine by me
You say: To say “There is no God,” and to be correct in the statement, I must be omniscient.
I say: Sorry, I’m not an invented God to be omniscient. I’m just me with my capabilities and human limitations.
You say: I must know how many hairs are upon every head, every thought of every human heart, every detail of history, every atom within every rock…nothing is hidden from my eyes…I know the intimate details of the secret love-life of the fleas on the back of the black cat of Napoleon’s great-grandmother. To make the absolute statement “There is no God.” I must have absolute knowledge that there isn’t one.
I say: I’m not invisible or omnipresent to do all that. Sorry, I don’t believe in God and neither do I have supernatural powers.
You say: “approach God the same way you approached your first television set. Just take a small step of faith. If it works, enjoy it, if it doesn’t, forget it.”
I say: It didn’t work. So I have forgotten it!
Anyway, I’m happy for you if you like Christianity. If something in the Bible comforts you, thats real nice.
Diff people; diff views; I guess 🙂
Susan
My wife took water baptism with jewels and now she is taking part in the Lords table with jewels. There are many such believers in our church like this. I say it again that wearing jewels is no sin and those who forgo it has no license to enter in heaven just because she is wearing jewel. This is not a rule or condition in TPM.
I hope all your rags on wearing jewels ends here. so stop posting the same doubt regarding jewels anymore.
“YOU SAY:FURTHERMORE TPM DENOUNCES MEDICINES AND DOCTORS AS LACK OF FAITH AND SIN BUT STRANGELY THEY GIVE COMMUNION TO THOUSANDS OF TPM DOCTORS AND NURSES. IS IT TO WELCOME THEIR TITHES INTO THE CHURCH COFFERS? THIS IS THEIR HYPOCRICY.”
First regarding tithes. Make it clear that those who minister in TPM are no ordinary lay men. You pls enquire deeply to know that those who come into this TPM for full time ministry includes doctors, nurses, Engineers, Musicians, MBA’s, M.sc’s, C.A’s, Lecturers and Professors, Business People. We have even crorepatis who had given all their belonging and stepped into this glorious ministry. Even our Centre Pastor was a very rich man. But he left all his riches back and came to lords work like moses did. And with all the leagal documents for the trust, Just a nod from our chief pastors, then millions of dollars would arrive from various International Christian Agencies. I know many of the individual pentecostal ministries are attracting huge amount in this way. But its our policy not to accept any kind of money as donation or fund. Being a son of business man I know very well that there are various agencies awaiting to fund christian organisation in india. Government norms are also very easy. But we dont accept a single penny in this way susan. If you have doubts you can ask anybody for this.
So your claim on hypocrites for tithes doesnt stand here.
I have said all those above words not to glorify the ministry or workers or riches awaiting. But for you to know the truth. Not only poor people or illiterates join the ministry, whosoever obeys the Lords Calling enters into this glorious ministry.
And now your claim on Medicines, Doctors etc.
susan not all are fully matured in christ. You read about babes in christ (I Co 3:1), these people are not fully spiritual but are newly born in christ through the anointing of the holy ghost. In TPM many believers condemn other ministries, denominations. Once God anoints them and reveals abt this glorious ministry they are full of zeal that others should also know the mystry about Zion and New Jerusalem. In this zeal some dear ones condemn other ministries and or without understanding the whole thing about Divine Healing they move to preach about it. Many are still babes in spiritual life but would like to show as if there were fully matured in christ. This is the main reason why people wage war of words against TPM. I was like this condemning other ministries and denomination before Lord taught me in this subject matter. The Lord spoke to me clearly in this matter.
We read in I Co 15:41. that the glory of the sun will be different from that of the moon, the glory of one star will differ from the other star. In heaven Lord has prepared places for us. Not same place for everyone. Jn 14:1 Jesus Says ” In my fathers house are many mansions, If it were not so I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you”. In heaven we have different places like Zion, New Jerusalem, New Earth and New heaven. Each one will be allotted a place in heaven according to the life we have had in this world and the closeness we had with Christ. The life which we live here determines the place in heaven for us. For example all the inhabitants of New Jerusalem will not have the same glory. Each one will have a glory according to their maturity in christ. Those who are fully attained the maturity of Christ will enjoy the supreme glory. Maturity to Christ level means our characters transforming into christ-like nature. So only we read the glory will differ from sun to moon, from each star to star.
To make you more clearer, in a Kings Palace, there will be ministers, treasures and office bearers and so on. Each one will be given a place to sit in that palace. But the person who is sitting near to king can behold him more closely that those sitting in the balcony. In such a way the Glory will differ to each person. This is the concept behind the Divine healing.
God is not demanding anyone. He has given a free will to choose. Now taking medicine is not a sin. Did God say anywhere in the Bible like that?
Susan our pastors are the first to go and meet if any of our believers are hospitalized. once they hear the news they will frequently engage themselves in prayer even before their home mates could do. There are aplenty number of Nurses and Doctors in our Churches. The God has said to the Israelites that I am the God that healeth thee (Ex 15:26). So a God faithful in His Promise has healed scores of our believers and ministers without any medicines. We read in( 2Ch 16:12) that Lord was grieved that asa seeked the pysicians in his sick bed and not the Lord. God doesnt Judge us literally but according to our heart. Those who place a higher faith and love on the Lord yield themselves for the Lord to be their Healer in the sick bed. Many of our dear one who were even certified by our believer doctors as no hope of living, God has resurrected them by His power. There are numerous testimony.
There are many who are little in faith or new to faith in our churches. We dont condemn them for taking medicines. But rather exhorts them to keep their faith on Jesus our Healer.
Once those weak ones in faith knows the Lord as He is , and when those dear ones start Loving their Lord with all their heart, with all their strength and all their soul, they too will yield for the divine healing.
Those who live a higher life will receive a greater glory in the eternity. There are many mansions in my Fathers house. If it not were so, I would have said you. I am going to prepare a place for you. He shall reward every man according to his works (Mt16:27). You cant thrust the faith and doctrines on any one. The Lord will not reveal himself to everyone. We cannot behold His face having impurity in our life. If you love me you keep my commandments. For divine healing we need a higher faith. When there is sin in our life we cant have that higher faith in God. One major requisite for that higher faith is Good conscience(I Tim1:19).
To receive that higher glory we are trusting our Lord Jesus. We all labour here to see Jesus as He is. There is abounding Joy and Peace in His presence. Who would not love to see the king and enjoy His presence in a close proximity? To be with that saviour we are toiling here. So no matter even if our life is on the line we will trust in that living Lord who has called us by name and delivered our soul from outer darkness. Glory be to Jesus.
There are many things from Bible which exhorts us to yield for Divine Healing.
I am not typing all these here to Justify us or to wage war, weaker souls may come across this page sometime, they shouldn’t be offended in their faith by your comments. Thats the only reason I am typing susan. And the God who called me by Name has clearly revealed me and gave the vision about Zion and New Jerusalem. Then who can turn us from the fellowship of the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost and from the fellowship of the Apostles.
DEAR ROBINSON,
1. YOU SAID, “God is not demanding anyone. He has given a free will to choose. Now taking medicine is not a sin. Did God say anywhere in the Bible like that?”
THEN YOU SAY, “There are many things from Bible which exhorts us to yield for Divine Healing.”
YOUR ABOVE 2 STATEMENTS APPEAR CONTRADICTORY TO EACH OTHER. WOULD YOU PLS CLARIFY.
2. JIM PROCLAIMS THAT DOCTORS ARE EQUIVALENT TO WITCH DOCTORS. YOU CAN READ HIS POST ON JAN 7, ’09. BUT HE HAS NOT YET ANSWERED AS TO WHY COMMUNION & BAPTISM IS GIVEN TO THEM. WOULD YOU PLS CLARIFY.
3. YOU SAID THAT TPM DOES NOT PROHIBIT BAPTISM AND COMMUNION FOR THOSE WEARING JEWELS. IF SO DO THEY PROHIBIT COMMUNION FOR THE WORKERS AND SUNDAY SCHOOL TEACHERS?
4. REGARDING THE WORKERS’ MELCHIZEDEK’S CALLING. WOULD YOU CLARIFY?
5. PAUL CLAIMS HIS RIGHT TO GET MARRIED AS THE OTHER APOSTLES. JESUS CALLED MARRIED PEOPLE AS APOSTLES. JESUS NEVER STIPULATED CELIBACY AS A PRECONDITION FOR APOSTLESHIP. THE FOUNDER RAMAN KUTTY WAS MARRIED AND HAD CHILDREN IN THE MINISTRY. WHY IS THEN CELIBACY STIPULATED AS A PRECONDITION FOR A WORKER?
HOPE TO HEAR YOUR CRISP REPLY IN SHORT.
One word of suggestion to Robinson. Hope he abstains and refrains from referring to doctrinal discussions and highlighting of truth as “condemnations” etc.
Let not truth be suppressed. Let ways be opened for TPM people to be enlightened regarding the truth and the errors.
SUSAN
“1. YOU SAID, “God is not demanding anyone. He has given a free will to choose. Now taking medicine is not a sin. Did God say anywhere in the Bible like that?”
THEN YOU SAY, “There are many things from Bible which exhorts us to yield for Divine Healing.
”YOUR ABOVE 2 STATEMENTS APPEAR CONTRADICTORY TO EACH OTHER. WOULD YOU PLS CLARIFY.”
My comment: I meant that there are verses which gives you the courage and faith to stand for divine healing. Taking Medicine is not a sin, to have a greater glory there are verses which gives faith and courage to get healing from God rather from men. Does it contradict each other?
“2. JIM PROCLAIMS THAT DOCTORS ARE EQUIVALENT TO WITCH DOCTORS. YOU CAN READ HIS POST ON JAN 7, ‘09. BUT HE HAS NOT YET ANSWERED AS TO WHY COMMUNION & BAPTISM IS GIVEN TO THEM. WOULD YOU PLS CLARIFY.”
I am in no position to understand Jim’s statement and so I would refrain myself from commenting on it.
“3. YOU SAID THAT TPM DOES NOT PROHIBIT BAPTISM AND COMMUNION FOR THOSE WEARING JEWELS. IF SO DO THEY PROHIBIT COMMUNION FOR THE WORKERS AND SUNDAY SCHOOL TEACHERS?”
First of all you can’t be a Worker and a Sunday School Teacher wearing jewels. Wanna know the reasons? Workers and Sunday School Teachers are in a position to lead others close to God. Believers and kids will look unto them for their edification. Its a church which prepares the bride of christ. Zion and New Jerusalem are meant for the Bride of Christ. So Workers and Teachers, filled with the Love of God had forgone the jewels for the sake of Christ. Need further clarification?
“4. REGARDING THE WORKERS’ MELCHIZEDEK’S CALLING. WOULD YOU CLARIFY?”
I would like to clarify it, but before that i would like to know your comments on it first.
“5. PAUL CLAIMS HIS RIGHT TO GET MARRIED AS THE OTHER APOSTLES. JESUS CALLED MARRIED PEOPLE AS APOSTLES. JESUS NEVER STIPULATED CELIBACY AS A PRECONDITION FOR APOSTLESHIP. THE FOUNDER RAMAN KUTTY WAS MARRIED AND HAD CHILDREN IN THE MINISTRY. WHY IS THEN CELIBACY STIPULATED AS A PRECONDITION FOR A WORKER?”
From the above two statement of yours, I could understand that you must have left CPM/TPM for a reason. I may not know the reason, but you must have been a former member of the body of Christ. I am sure you know the doctrines behind your 4th and 5th statements. But you are here to find faults in the TPM Doctrines and Principles. So you go this way.
First you tell the shortcoming or misinterpretations or whatever you find in our doctrines, then according to the Grace God bestowed upon me I will explain.
“One word of suggestion to Robinson. Hope he abstains and refrains from referring to doctrinal discussions and highlighting of truth as “condemnations” etc.”
Can you make it clear.
“Let not truth be suppressed. Let ways be opened for TPM people to be enlightened regarding the truth and the errors.”
R u saying now the doctrines of Jewels and Divine healing are wrong? Tell us in what way should the Lord enlighten us or else in what matter?
“HOPE TO HEAR YOUR CRISP REPLY IN SHORT.”
I am trying to be short but whatever statement the Lord puts in my heart I will type.
Susan
A small example for you, so that you may stop criticizing on the saints or the people who are doing Lords work. Because TPM workers are called and chosen by God Himself. They are saints or apostles of God.
In Gen 9:21-27 – we read Noah was drunk and was uncovered within the tents. His son Ham looked at it and went out to inform this matter to his two brothers.
And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father’s nakedness. And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
When you find fault in the saints the Lord has kept before you, you are no one to tell their faults to anyone. Its the Lords work and He knows how to deal with it. He knows whether to correct them or punish them. If you are so much concerned about the matter you pray to God so that the Lord may forgive them or correct them or He teaches you whether you have mistaken them.
Your tone in this Blog is like you are spending your whole time in blaming the doctrines God has delivered to the saints and the consecration they are making out of love. Its not like you are vessel to God. You are blaming the Lords Chosen vessel. If ever you did find fault in them or in their doctrines God didnt allow you to criticize them. Anyway awaiting your comments for your 4th and 5th statements.
Susan
A small example for you, so that you may stop criticizing on the saints or the people who are doing Lords work. Because TPM workers are called and chosen by God Himself. They are saints or apostles of God.
In Gen 9:21-27 – we read Noah was drunk and was uncovered within the tents. His son Ham(canaan) looked at it and went out to inform this matter to his two brothers.
And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father’s nakedness. And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
When you find fault in the saints the Lord has kept before you, you are no one to tell their faults to anyone,lest you be cursed.Its the Lords work and He knows how to deal with it. He knows whether to correct them or punish them. If you are so much concerned about the matter you pray to God so that the Lord may forgive them or correct them or He teaches you whether you have mistaken them.
Your tone in this Blog is like you are spending your whole time in blaming the doctrines God has delivered to the saints and the consecration they are making out of love. Its not like you are vessel to God. You are blaming the Lords Chosen vessel. If ever you did find fault in them or in their doctrines God didnt allow you to criticize them. Anyway awaiting your comments for your 4th and 5th statements.
ROBINSON
HOPE YOU STOP USING THE TACTIC OF ACCUSING ME (TO ESCAPE FROM THE MATTER IN HAND) AND INSTEAD DEBATE PROPERLY:
1. YOU SAID, “Taking Medicine is not a sin, to have a greater glory there are verses which gives faith and courage to get healing from God rather from men.”
WHERE DOES THE BIBLE SAY THAT THERE IS GREATER GLORY IF MEDICINES ARE REFUSED? POINT ME TO THE VERSE.
2. YOU REFRAIN FROM COMMENTING ABOUT JIM’S STATEMENT BECAUSE MAYBE YOU DO NOT WANT TO OFFEND HIM THOUGH YOU KNOW THAT HE TALKS NONSENSE WHEN HE CALLS DOCTORS AS WITCHES.
3. YOU SAID, “Zion and New Jerusalem are meant for the Bride of Christ.”
DOES IT MEAN THAT YOUR WIFE WHO WEARS JEWELS CANNOT ENTER THESE PLACES WHICH YOU MENTIONED?
BECAUSE YOUR WIFE WEARS JEWELS DOES IT MEAN THAT SHE SHOULD NOT LEAD A LIFE OF EDIFICATION TO OTHERS AND TO CHILDREN?
WHERE DOES THE BIBLE SAY THAT BELIEVERS OTHER THAN WORKERS AND SUNDAY SCHOOL TEACHERS ONLY CAN WEAR JEWELS? PLS ANSWER.
4. REGARDING THE FALSE DOCTRINE OF MELCHIZEDEK CALLING FOR WORKERS MY COMMENTS ARE IN 18TH DECEMBER ‘08, 4TH JAN ‘09 AND 8TH JAN ‘09 IN THIS BLOG SITE. YOU CAN READ AND RESPOND.
5. I STATED, “PAUL CLAIMS HIS RIGHT TO GET MARRIED AS THE OTHER APOSTLES. JESUS CALLED MARRIED PEOPLE AS APOSTLES. JESUS NEVER STIPULATED CELIBACY AS A PRECONDITION FOR APOSTLESHIP. THE FOUNDER RAMAN KUTTY WAS MARRIED AND HAD CHILDREN IN THE MINISTRY. WHY IS THEN CELIBACY STIPULATED AS A PRECONDITION FOR A WORKER?”
JUST REPLY TO THE ABOVE. DO NOT CRITICISE ME AND TRY TO ESCAPE FROM AN ANSWER WHEN IT APPEARS THAT YOU DO NOT HAVE AN ANSWER.
STOP DEFENDING TPM WORKERS MEANINGLESSLY. SHOW YOUR ZEAL FOR CHRIST RATHER THAN FOR TPM WORKERS. LET TRUTH BE MORE IMPORTANT THAN WORKERS.
Hope Robinson does not involve in cheap accusing tactics just like Jim did when scriptural and doctrinal misinterpretations are put to the test.
Remember, there will be no one who will buy into your tactic. All are watching. Instead of giving an appropriate reply if you accuse lamely, people do in fact easily notice that.
If you do not have a reply, just yeild to truth. Or just say that you do not have an answer. Instead of that do not accuse.
That shows that have nothing more to debate. Do not cover up your lack of content or the misinterpretations by involving in making sweeping accusations that deviates from the topic in hand.
Stick to and focus on the topic.
i go to the tpm in australia
“Hope Robinson does not involve in cheap accusing tactics just like Jim did when scriptural and doctrinal misinterpretations are put to the test.”
Rachel, What do you mean by the above statement??? “scriptural and doctrinal misinterpretations are put to the test”??? what is it?? Please explain….
I’m continuosly reading all the posts… All that is.. I’ve stopped posting on athiesm. Because I tried and opened all the doors of options for Rachel Chitra to get her eyes opened… She even just took a small step of faith (Hope she did). It never worked for her…
What kind of debate you want to have now?? tpm?? what pleasure does it give you?? How has this helped you to open the eyes of an athiest (Rachel)?? you are trying and opening the eyes of poeple?? How many have got their eyes opened…?? You better read Ps.14:1 (for Rachel Chitra too)… and then ask yourself if the time you are spending on these debate is worth…
Jim.
DEAR BROTHER JIM
What pleasure does it give you TO DEFEND TPM IRRATIONALLY?? How has this helped you to open the eyes of THE TPM BELIEVERS AND WORKERS?? ARE you are trying and opening the eyes of TPM poeple?? How many have got their eyes opened…?? You better read HEB 4: 16 AND HEB 10:19 and then ask yourself if the time you are spending on YOUR USELESS DEFENSE OF TPM IDENTITY is worth YOUR TIME?
1. PLEASE STOP YOUR IDOLATRY OF TPM’S FALSE DOCTRINE OF WORKERS-IN-THE-ORDER-OF-MELCHIZEDEK.
2. PLEASE ALSO STOP CALLING DOCTORS AS BLACK MAGICIANS. IF DOCTORS ARE BLACK MAGICIANS ASK TPM TO STOP GIVING COMMUNION TO THE DOCTORS AND NURSES IN TPM.
3. ANSWER TO THIS:
IT WAS STATED, “PAUL CLAIMS HIS RIGHT TO GET MARRIED AS THE OTHER APOSTLES. JESUS CALLED MARRIED PEOPLE AS APOSTLES. JESUS NEVER STIPULATED CELIBACY AS A PRECONDITION FOR APOSTLESHIP. THE FOUNDER RAMAN KUTTY WAS MARRIED AND HAD CHILDREN IN THE MINISTRY. WHY IS THEN CELIBACY STIPULATED AS A PRECONDITION FOR A WORKER?”
4. I AM ALSO WAITING FOR ROBINSON’S REPLY TO SUSAN’S QUESTIONS.
GOD BLESS YOU JIM. RATHER THAN USE THE STRATEGY OF ACCUSATION, STICK TO THE TOPIC IN HAND.
Heb 10:19 says: My friends, the blood of Jesus gives us courage to enter the most holy place 20by a new way that leads to life! And this way takes us through the curtain that is Christ himself.
This is so good… So whts wrong in this??
21st says: We have a great high priest who is in charge of God’s house. 22So let’s come near God with pure hearts and a confidence that comes from having faith. Let’s keep our hearts pure, our consciences free from evil, and our bodies washed with clean water. 23We must hold tightly to the hope that we say is ours. After all, we can trust the one who made the agreement with us.
and 24th says: We should keep on encouraging each other to be thoughtful and to do helpful things. 25Some people have gotten out of the habit of meeting for worship, but we must not do that. We should keep on encouraging each other, especially since you know that the day of the Lord’s coming is getting closer.
“Are you encouraging each other or falling into accusation games wasting precious time when coming of our Lord is so very near?? Who says or calls doctors as black magicians?? I explained you the origin of the word “medicine”. Its YOU who concluded this senselessness as always… because not all doctors prescribe medicines… they examine, prescribe and advice about the have(s)/have not(s) of the food habits.
About Paul of Corinthians…
What do you conclude?? Did Paul get marry?? NO.. Why??? because thats HIS way of consecration… and tpm workers chose that to be the most examplary way of consecration… No one has got the authority to question anyone’s personal way of consecration. There are many workers in tpm too who are married… But since this is the best way of consecration as defined by Paul by LIVING that way, most of them have chosen that and now considered to be a protocol in tpm. Do you have any personal problem with this protocol??
And most of all…. Who is defending or offending tpm here??? Its all about refraining and trying to refrain others from this kind of devil’s work.
And what do you think… that all other churches are free from all kind of scriptual misintepretations??? Are they all perfect and holy?? Just do let me know the name of the church you go and I’ll explain you the scriptual and doctrinal distortions there…. But I wont do that cos its a very bad game and devil’s work.. Wisdom is to refrain from these. And you too refarain from them.
Robinson…
I’ve been reading your posts right from the beginning… It makes high level of sense compared to the accusation-game that some sisters are playing in here… Shall we pray for them… tpm MIGHT be having some negativeness so does it has 100 times more in other churches too… Rememer.. Although we may be going to tpm church every Sunday, we belong to Christ’s body and not some tpm or any church. Jesus is never going to come seeking for tpm believers. His second coming is for them who has finished a good race and… Zion for them… “Who lived like Him”
My humble suggestion: Never be defensive or offensive… Just keep yourself in the diplomatic stand… Remember once you start defend or offend, the devil’s work begins. “This is my experience” I want to see how far the devil would make them play this game. Meanwhile all we can do is pray for them. Every good/bad thing that begins has an end too…
JIM
1. FIRSTLY, IT IS DEVIL’S WORK TO CLAIM THAT DOCTORS IN TPM NEVER PRESCRIBE MEDICINES. THEY HAVE UNDERGONE TRAINING AND CERTIFICATION TO PRESCRIBE MEDICINES.
2. SECONDLY, THE EXEMPLARY LIFE OF CELIBACY WHICH YOU CLAIM FOR TPM WORKERS WAS NOT FOLLOWED BY THE TPM FOUNDER RAMAN KUTTY PAUL. DID HE LACK AN EXEMPLARY LIFE?
IF CELIBACY IS EXEMPLARY AS YOU FALSELY CLAIM, THEN JESUS WOULD NOT HAVE CALLED MARRIED PEOPLE AS APOSTLES. IF CELIBACY WAS EXEMPLARY THEN PAUL WOULD NOT HAVE STATED THAT APOSTLES WERE MARRIED AND HAD THE AUTHORITY TO BE MARRIED.
PAUL TALKED ABOUT CELIBACY IN 1 CORINTHIANS 7 TO BELIEVERS AND NOT TO THE FULL TIME TPM WORKERS. DEVIL WANTS TO CONFUSE THE SCRIPTURES. DO NOT BE HIS TOOL!!
3. THIRDLY, JIM AND ROBINSON, WHO PRAISE EACH OTHER FOR THE FALSE REASONS, ARE VERY SILENT ABOUT THE FALSE DOCTRINE AND DECEPTION OF “MELCHIZEDEK’S CALLING FOR TPM WORKERS”.
4. ROBINSON SAID, “Zion and New Jerusalem are meant for the Bride of Christ.”
DOES HE MEAN THAT HIS WIFE WHO WEARS JEWELS CANNOT ENTER THESE PLACES WHICH YOU MENTIONED?
BECAUSE HIS WIFE WEARS JEWELS DOES IT MEAN THAT SHE SHOULD NOT LEAD A LIFE OF EDIFICATION TO OTHERS AND TO CHILDREN?
WHERE DOES THE BIBLE SAY THAT BELIEVERS OTHER THAN WORKERS AND SUNDAY SCHOOL TEACHERS ONLY CAN WEAR JEWELS? COULD HE ANSWER.
5. ROBINSON SAID, “Taking Medicine is not a sin, to have a greater glory there are verses which gives faith and courage to get healing from God rather from men.”
WHERE DOES THE BIBLE SAY THAT THERE IS GREATER GLORY IF MEDICINES ARE REFUSED? POINT ME TO THE VERSE.
CONCLUSION: SATAN WANTS TO HIDE THE FALSE DOCTRINES IN TPM FROM BEING EXPOSED. JUST BEWARE OF THAT STRATEGY. HAVE ZEAL FOR TRUTH RATHER THAN FOR TPM AND THEIR FALSE DOCTRINES.
TRUTH TAKES YOU TO HEAVEN NOT TPM!!
I DO READ THE POSTINGS HERE AND FEEL THAT SUSAN AND RACHEL DO GIVE AN ACCURATE PRESENTATION BOTH ABOUT THE HISTORY OF TPM AND ABOUT THE FALSE DOCTRINES OF TPM.
IT IS BETTER TO UNDERSTAND THE FOLLOWING REGARDING TPM:
FIRST OF ALL, TPM BELIEVERS DO NOT WANT THE FALSE DOCTRINES IN TPM TO BE EXPOSED. THUS THEY LOVE TO “FEEL GOOD” ABOUT TPM RATHER THAN FACE THE TRUTH AND GIVE UP THEIR FALSE DOCTRINES.
THEY ALSO WANT GLORY TO GO THE WORKERS RATHER THAN TO GOD.
THEY JUST PRETEND TO LOVE TRUTH BUT IN ACTUALITY, THEY CRAVE TO SING PRAISES ABOUT THE CONSECRATION OF THE WORKERS.
TPM CRAVES FOR AN IDENTITY FOR THEIR DENOMINATION. THEY WANT TO PROJECT THEMSELVES AS “SUPERIOR”.
MOREOVER, THEY CRAVE TO KEEP THEIR BELIEVERS TOTALLY DEPENDENT UPON THE WORKERS LIKE SUCKLING BABES.
IT IS THE ABOVE ATTITUDES THAT HAS LED THEM AND FORCED THEM TO FABRICATE MANY FALSE DOCTRINES TO SUIT THEIR “FALSE IMAGE” WHICH THEY HAVE CREATED FOR THEMSELVES.
TPM WILL BE DELIVERED WHEN THEY GIVE UP THEIR CRAVING FOR “SUPERIORITY” AND THEIR CRAVING TO KEEP THEIR BELIEVERS LIKE BABIES DEPENDENT ON WORKERS.
MAY GOD OPEN THE EYES OF TPM BELIEVERS WHO VISIT THIS SITE ESPECIALLY THE YOUNG GIRLS AND BOYS WHO ARE DECEIVED.
ON BEHALF OF RESOURCE CENTRE, SUSAN AND RACHEL, KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK.
“Truth takes you to heaven not tpm!!! Thats what my message is….
You better read what I wrote to Brother Robinson… The second coming of Christ is not for tpm but for…. (u know the rest)
PAUL TALKED ABOUT CELIBACY IN 1 CORINTHIANS 7 TO BELIEVERS AND NOT TO THE FULL TIME TPM WORKERS. DEVIL WANTS TO CONFUSE THE SCRIPTURES. DO NOT BE HIS TOOL!!
This is what I’ve been trying to tell you since loong… tpm workers are those believers who personally chose to be in that manner and do full time ministry. So if you are a believer, why dont you also follow what Paul said in Corinthians?? If you do, you’ll also become like one of them. That is a SIMPLE rather COMMON sense.
“IF CELIBACY WAS EXEMPLARY THEN PAUL WOULD NOT HAVE STATED THAT APOSTLES WERE MARRIED AND HAD THE AUTHORITY TO BE MARRIED.”
But then again the question is… did he get marry?? Did Jesus get marry?? May be tpm workers went for the best consecration like our High Priest Jesus and St. Paul…
Again my message for you is same “truth takes you to heaven and not tpm or some rachel or susan or any kind of blame-games”
TPM WILL BE DELIVERED WHEN THEY GIVE UP THEIR CRAVING FOR “SUPERIORITY” AND THEIR CRAVING TO KEEP THEIR BELIEVERS LIKE BABIES DEPENDENT ON WORKERS.
I really find it very difficult to believe this. Do you know Bro. David that we have area meetings every week where one of the senior believer conduct and lead the meetings?? We are taught to pray for all our needs ourselves and we are totally independant when it comes to praying for our needs and wishes.
TPM CRAVES FOR AN IDENTITY FOR THEIR DENOMINATION. THEY WANT TO PROJECT THEMSELVES AS “SUPERIOR”.
Now what if tpm has got its identity worldwide??? It s called prosperity of Lord’s work. Its the work of Holy spirit and high level of obedience which binds the whole ministry of tpm world-wide… Are you jealous?? Refrain from that siprit.. It s the sign of satan is lurking around you.
THEY ALSO WANT GLORY TO GO THE WORKERS RATHER THAN TO GOD.
This is 100% false accusation. The devil’s work at its best !!!
ON BEHALF OF RESOURCE CENTRE, SUSAN AND RACHEL, KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK.
Let me remind this to both our sisters… This is 100% devil’s comment to “keep up the good work”.. get your eyes opened.
Brother David..
TPM WILL BE DELIVERED WHEN THEY GIVE UP THEIR CRAVING FOR “SUPERIORITY” AND THEIR CRAVING TO KEEP THEIR BELIEVERS LIKE BABIES DEPENDENT ON WORKERS.
I really find it very difficult to believe this. Do you know Bro. David that we have area meetings every week where one of the senior believer conduct and lead the meetings?? We are taught to pray for all our needs ourselves and we are totally independant when it comes to praying for our needs and wishes.
TPM CRAVES FOR AN IDENTITY FOR THEIR DENOMINATION. THEY WANT TO PROJECT THEMSELVES AS “SUPERIOR”.
Now what if tpm has got its identity worldwide??? It s called prosperity of Lord’s work. Its the work of Holy spirit and high level of obedience which binds the whole ministry of tpm world-wide… Are you jealous?? Refrain from that siprit.. It s the sign of satan is lurking around you.
THEY ALSO WANT GLORY TO GO THE WORKERS RATHER THAN TO GOD.
This is 100% false accusation. The devil’s work at its best !!!
ON BEHALF OF RESOURCE CENTRE, SUSAN AND RACHEL, KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK.
Let me remind this to both our sisters… This is 100% devil’s comment to “keep up the good work”.. get your eyes opened.
“Make yourself an honest man (women), and then you may be sure there is one less rascal in the world”.
Thomas Carlyle
“The hand we work is holier than the mouth we speak”
MG
JIM (WHO ACTS AS A DEVIL’S AGENT TO SUPPRESS TRUTH ) HAS NOT UNDERSTOOD MY QUERY.
1. PAUL TALKED ABOUT CELIBACY BUT HE NEVER TOLD LIES WHICH TPM DOES WHEN TPM SAYS THAT CELIBACY IS A PRECONDITION FOR FULL TIME MINISTRY.
DOES TPM ALLOW MARRIAGE FOR WORKERS IF AS YOU PRETEND THAT TPM ALLOWS FREEWILL IN THE MATTER OF CELIBACY?
2. JESUS NEVER ADVOCATED CELIBACY AS A PRECONDITION TO APOSTLESHIP. SUCH A PRECONDITION IS A FABRICATION OF TPM JUST TO BOAST ABOUT THEIR IDENTITY.
PAUL CLAIMS HIS AUTHORITY TO MARRY. BUT TPM DOES NOT ALLOW MARRIAGE FOR WORKERS. RAMAN KUTTY WAS NEVER A CELIBATE. THUS TPM IS BLATANTLY DISTORTING SCRIPTURE AND THE TPM FOUNDER’S VISION.
3. TPM HAS NOT GIVEN UP THEIR LIE OF THEIR FALSE DOCTRINE OF MELCHIZEDEK CALLING FOR WORKERS AND UNTIL THAT ALL CLAIMS OF BELIEVER INDEPENDENCE IS AN EYEWASH.
4. TPM IS A SMALL PUDDLE OF A LOT OF FALSE DOCTRINES IN COMPARISON TO THE POPULATION OF THE ENTIRE PENTECOSTAL COMMUNITY WORLDWIDE. TPM IS NOT EVEN 2 % OF THE WHOLE PENTECOSTAL POPULATION WORLDWIDE. SO IT IS NOT JEALOUSY BUT RATHER YOUR VAIN PRIDE ABOUT TPM. AND MOST OF THEIR SOUL WINNING IS BY STEALING SHEEP FROM OTHER DENOMINATIONS BY BOASTING ABOUT THEIR FALSE SUPERIORITY.
JUST BEWARE OF JIM WHO IS A TPM GLORIFIER RATHER THAN ONE WHO PURSUES TRUTH. HE IS AN ACCUSER OF THOSE WHO SPEAK TRUTH.
Jim,
I’m just curious..I thought you said you were not a full-time member of TPM and you rarely go to church. Correct me, if I am wrong…but somewhere along the lines I got the idea that Anil was a Methodist and you were not a regular church-goer.
Not that going to church or not going to church has anything to do with your relationship with Christ…But its just that if you didn’t go to church that often, I don’t see why you are so upset about the comments here..
I’m just curious..I thought you said you were not a full-time member of TPM and you rarely go to church
Full-time “member” ?? I didnt get that point. You dont need to be a member of tpm as far as I know. Although not regular but I do go to church and I know about the glorious ministry compared to many other pentacostal denominations. I’ve been to many other pentacostal churches where my friends go. ‘Rajasthan Pentacostal Mission’ belongs to my Brother-in-Law in Udaipur. But then since years I’ve seen and experienced that tpm ministry is the most glorious one.
David says “TPM IS NOT EVEN 2 % OF THE WHOLE PENTECOSTAL POPULATION WORLDWIDE” This is something like whole bunch of pentacostal denomination churches compared with some little of tpm. And again… all these bunch of pentacostal denominations fight among themselves pointing each other’s faults and shortcomings. But the question is… which pentacostal ministry has the most well-coordinated and properly channeled ministry world-wide with one apostle controling from Chennai-India?. Not even catholics match this order of obedient-ministry. This is because… its not the work of man but Holy Spirit which purely guides them.
But its just that if you didn’t go to church that often, I don’t see why you are so upset about the comments here..
I’m not concerned about the comments here but the people who do that. I always wonder how they benefit when the ‘Coming of Our Lord’ is so very near, when clear signs of finacial meltdowns, rumours of war, poverty and so on are showing up.
David,
Your comment:(entire one is same as Susan and Rachel who does ‘copy-paste’ of each other’s comments) TPM SAYS THAT CELIBACY IS A PRECONDITION FOR FULL TIME MINISTRY. Its not a “PRECONDITION ” but its something which is expected from those who want to do full-time ministry. its comfortable too to hold together the ministry. Ministry doesnt want disobedience when a pastor is given transfer, ,ministry doesnt want futher problems which arises due to family issues and other head-achs of workers.
If you want to do full time ministry with the family, you can do. Its not a sin or something forbidden. There are so many saints of God and evagelists doing the ministry who are married and have family.
But then again… I would request Brother David to refrain from ‘copy-paste’ these statements from Rachel and Susan’s postings. I’ve compared them.. Most of the statements are exactly the same.
TPM IS NOT EVEN 2 % OF THE WHOLE PENTECOSTAL POPULATION WORLDWIDE”
This is something like whole bunch of pentacostal denomination churches compared with some little of tpm.
Thannk you for this privilege, which I humbly decline.
Jim,
Sorry for asking again, but I want to know if you belong to the TPM which was earlier CPM or the Pentecostal Mission, which has its base in Chennai.
To clarify, I think all of us here were discussing the TPM/CPM and not the activities of the Pentecostal Mission in Chennai. Ok: To further clarify – the TPM/CPM has a huge church in Irumbuilyur on the outskirts of the city, near Tamabaram. The Pentecostal Mission is in Purasawalkam in Chennai.
The reason I want to know is because the TPM/CPM is far more radical than the Chennai Penetcostal Mission……and we don’t want to be barking up the wrong tree
This is something like whole bunch of pentacostal denomination churches compared with some little of tpm. And again… all these bunch of pentacostal denominations fight among themselves pointing each other’s faults and shortcomings. But the question is… which pentacostal ministry has the most well-coordinated and properly channeled ministry world-wide with one apostle controling from Chennai-India?.
Are you claiming the TPM has the most organised church? I thought the TPM had the maximum in-fighting among the Pentecostal churches. I remember Pastor Alwin was very pro-Singhalese and banned Tamil in the worship services…Later due to his extreme anti-Tamil, pro-Singhalese stance he was ex-communicated from the church by Freddy Paul and went to the US. And I thought there was a fight between Freddy Paul and Phillip Chandrapillai. Phillip Chandrapillai died a few days later from injuries sustained in the fight.
Then again the fight over the name change from CPM to TPM.
Not even catholics match this order of obedient-ministry.
Obedient-Ministries are not be applauded. Absolute, un-questioned obedience paves the way for maximum spiritual, emotional, physical and sometimes sexual abuse.
I am an Ex-Pentecostal myself (though from AG and not TPM) so I do know what I am talking about. The more obedient the congregation, the more they are laying themselves open for spiritual abuse.
This is because… its not the work of man but Holy Spirit which purely guides them.
Are you saying that the other Ministries like the Lutheran Church, Assemblies of God, New Life Fellowship or the Catholic church are not guided by the Holy Spirit?
Are these other Ministries the work of man, and not guided by God?
Is it rachel Chitra commenting?? How are you concerned?? How are you benefitted in any way from this discussion?? You are an athiest right??
And I thought there was a fight between Freddy Paul and Phillip Chandrapillai. Phillip Chandrapillai died a few days later from injuries sustained in the fight.
Then again the fight over the name change from CPM to TPM
I’ve elaborately explained many times about the name change from cpm to tpm and why it had to take place.
About pas. Allwyn being ex-communicated from the ministry, there are many… not just Alwyn who has been ex-communicated. And this is so true. the fight betn and Fredy and Pas Philip is being again and again taken to the topic… the fights in tpm ofcourse takes place often are just countable in the finger tips. But in other pentacostal denomination churches??? forget finger-tips, hair-tips would be less for its counting for very sure…
Are you saying that the other Ministries like the Lutheran Church, Assemblies of God, New Life Fellowship or the Catholic church are not guided by the Holy Spirit?
Are these other Ministries the work of man, and not guided by God?
This post of yours is a pure proof that you believe in God. But your ego and the pride of your knowledge reigns over you… (Read Ps. 14:1)
And please dont you talk of New life Fellowships… I happened to hear one New life’s pastor’s testimony… He says.. God blessed me with a TV and DVD player…
Its me alright! One of the factors in my turning atheist, was the strict, legalistic doctrine and total lack of sympathy in most churches.
About the discussion, I felt your claim that TPM was most organised was not true. All churches have their strengths and weakness. And as Christians it might be better to admit the weaknesses and work towards strengthening the church, than to think “my Church is perfect, the other churches are not.”
Are you saying that the other Ministries like the Lutheran Church, Assemblies of God, New Life Fellowship or the Catholic church are not guided by the Holy Spirit?
Are these other Ministries the work of man, and not guided by God?
Jim,
Maybe it would be clear if I had written:
Are you saying that the other Ministries like the Lutheran Church, Assemblies of God, New Life Fellowship or the Catholic church are not guided by your (Jim’s) Holy Spirit?
Are these other Ministries the work of man, and not guided by your (Jim’s) God?
Sorry to say, I’m still an atheist!
God blessed me with a TV and DVD player.
That was hilarious 🙂
I remember one of our college profs in the religious studies class thanked God For “a nice Estello, in replacement of the other Maruti 800 car, which thanks to God she was able to sell at a good price……God keep these girls away from boys. Let them not lust. Let them marry all the boys their parents choose for them”
We had to stuff hankies into our mouths to stop ourselves from laughing! 🙂
Even, my grandma believed in praying for trivial things. She would pray “the biriyani was cooked nicely” …”the clothes in Sarvanna stores will be cheap and within our budget”…..”that we catch the train on time.”
The best prayer came from my aunt. She wrote a letter saying, “Thank God, we got a Green Card. Praise the Lord we are now American citizens and have nothing to fear…”
Don’t ask me what they had to fear in India 🙂
I still can’t stop grinning over your “God blessed me with a TV and DVD player” comment.
I thought your (Jim’s) Christ was all about renouncing the material world and fighting in the spiritual realm.
Sorry, if I am wrong but materialism is the basis of Karl Marx’s socialism. It was Engel’s who advocated spiritualism. So when these people pray for all the goodies of the world, I wonder where your (Jim’s) Christ is? Did he not say it is tougher for a rich man to enter (your) heaven than for a camel to enter the needle of an eye.
And Jim you shouldn’t be suprised about my knowledge of the “power plays” in the Pentecostal churches, I have been in the Christian circuit for 20 years now. Its not like I am outsider just because I’m an atheist…I was very much a close observer of the “power dynamics” in both Pentecostal and Anglican churches as many of my close relatives have held some position of authority in diff churches.
Ok. the 20 is a bit of an exaggeration…I left the church when I was 20…so I can maybe say that for the last 5 to 10 years I have observed whats going on in the church circuit
Rachel Chitra,
Its more like being rebellious against the churches because of your bad experiences there than being an athiest. I say this because, if you are advocating that theres no God, and that you are an athiest, then existence of any church would be senseless for you. When you are saying “my God” or “His God”, what exactly do you conclude??
If you read my posting carefully, I’ve clearly mentioned there that tpm MIGHT have negativess but so do 100 times more in other churches too… and that when Christ comes He’s not going to look around for any tpm or any pentacostal denominations but people…. (you know the rest). I’ve been diplomatic and dont want to turn offensive against any individual or denominations.
And yes.. My Lord talks about spiritual blessings and not material blessings but then when you are in this world, My Lord provides what is required for a living and prosperity comes to those who works hard and struggle in thier life. My Lord’s word says, “My grace is sufficient for thee”
So you were a part of church for 10 yrs…. That means you have experienced just a breeze compared to the storm what I’ve seen and come across in tpm, rpm, ipc, cog, aog, oc and so on for more than 20 yrs, young lady… Among all these I’ve found tpm to be a wonderful ministry but certainly cannot be termed as the best. As you know every church has its own short-comings, even tpm has its own…
But the spirit of accusations, blaming others should be avoided as this is purely devil’s work as I always say. I’m just trying to avoid others so that devil fails. For you infact if God doesnt exist, Devil too dont.
No, No..I was part of the church since my birth – that is 20 years…But I was of an age to observe and probably question things only from the time I was 10 and upwards.
Jim,
So you were not a TPM member from the beginning? Are you a first-generation Christian or do you come from the CSI church?
Which other churches did you attend? What attracted you to the Pentecostal way of life?
Is your wife also a Pentecostal?
If you were part of AG, do you stay in Chennai? Have you attended the AG church in Little Mount, Saidapet?
I ask because I grew up in that church and I might have seen you before
Jim,
You said,
But the spirit of accusations, blaming others should be avoided as this is purely devil’s work as I always say. I’m just trying to avoid others so that devil fails.
When questions are raised about your beliefs it is better to answer them…my friend Cindy Kunsman from http://undermuchgrace.blogspot.com/ says, “in legalistic churches the group’s doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute. We should be Berean Christians, keeping the Bible as the ultimate authority not church leaders.”
So don’t treat questions from others as the Devil’s work. What they say can have some validity. So we must examine at length criticism we receive, because it could be “constructive criticism” that would help us.
Cindy Kunsman, who is a practicising Christian says, “People see truth as something they must prove and defend, as if they are personally responsible for truth. People like me see themselves as secondary to the truth, and truth does not need me to prove it’s validity. Truth helps me far more than I can ever help the truth. I need to be able to give an account of my faith, but truth can provide its own defense. That is Biblical. The Word does not return void.”
Jim,
Don’t immediately tell me I’m not an atheist and therein shouldn’t talk about matters pertaining to Christianity. Its just that I see a lot of me in you. Earlier, I too was like you…..I couldn’t bear one word of criticism about “Christianity”….but only after I started listening to what others – critics (who were also friends) – had to say did I start growing as a person.
Earlier, I was a strictly black and white person. Either this was right or it was wrong. Now I see that there a lot of grey areas in life.
For instance, I know of a pastor who lives a very simple lifestyle and helps many charitable institutions, yet he is guilty of tax evasion and still believes in the caste system.
The earlier me would have rejected him outright – because of the tax evasion & casteism. But now as I have grown older, I realise people have shades of good and shades of bad….
So, while the church has been responsible for many good things like starting many good educational institutions, it also has another shadier side to it (deals with politicians, funding, tax evasion, sectarian discrimination, gender bias, etc)
Jim,
So if we want to be true friends to a church leader/ church we will be happy about the good aspects, while strongly opposing the bad things in the church; for isn’t noble to fight for reformation in an institution you care for…?
1. YES, TPM IS WELL COORODINATED TO BRAG ABOUT WORKERS AND EXPLOIT THE YOUTH WITH FALSE DOCTRINES. AND CLAIMING THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS GUIDING THEM. DO NOT USE THE NAME OF GOD TO JUSTIFY YOUR FABRICATIONS.
2. JIM COPIES AND PASTES FROM TPM. SO HE JUST SUSPECTS OTHERS OF THE SAME HABIT WHICH HE NORMALLY DOES.
3. TPM DOES NOT ALLOW WORKERS TO REMAIN IN MARRIAGE. EITHER THEY HAVE TO SPLIT OR ENTER MINISTRY AS AN UNMARRIED. JIM CONFUSES BETWEEN PRECONDITION AND EXPECTATION WHEN BOTH ARE THE SAME.
4. TPM IS NOT JUST LITTLE BUT ALSO A DIRTY PUDDLE WITH LOTS OF FALSE DOCTRINES WITH JINGOISTIC SUPPORTERS LIKE JIM. VERY ORGANISED DECEIVERS!!
5. JIM LIKES TO DIVERT THE MODERATOR TO A DISCUSSION TO ATHEISM FROM EXPOSING TPM. THE MODERATOR MUST RECOGNISE THIS CUNNING STRATEGY OF JIM.
6. PHILLIP CHANDAPILLAI WAS SEVERELY PHYSICALLY ASSAULTED DURING A GENERAL BODY MEETING IN KERALA BECAUSE HE CHANGED NAME FROM CEYLON PENTECOSTAL MISSION TO THE PENTECOSTAL MISSION. TPM IS VERY ORGANISED!! OF COURSE!! LOL.
JEWELS VERSUS TRUST – A GLIMPSE
Question: Is it possible for a person who wears jewels to trust in God?
1. With regard to the above question on jewels there are two aspects:
a. First is “trusting” in jewels.
b. Second is “wearing” jewels.
Can you tell what is the difference between “trusting” and “wearing”?
Trusting in jewels means the following:
1. Always boasting about jewels before others.
2. Always thinking about jewels.
3. Unwilling to come closer to Christ.
On the other hand, trusting in God means the following:
a. Boasting about the crucified Christ.
b. Preaching the crucified Christ to unbelievers.
c. Meditating about the crucified Christ.
The above applies to money as well. We can have money and use it but if we do not glorify Christ in our life then we will be considered to be “trusting” in money.
Note:
Just because a person wears jewels does not mean that he/she is “trusting” in them. Why?
Because, the Pentecostals themselves have millions of money in their bank account. They also buy the best dress, best house, work overseas etc. Do they “trust” in them?
CONCLUSION: Therefore a person can wear jewels and still “trust” God. So teach people to trust in God rather than make them remove their jewels.
Furthermore, be cautious when Pentecostal pastors threaten you by saying, “If you wear jewels you are trusting in jewels and not in God”.
Moreover, be cautious of pastors when they say, “You are not having a sacrificing attitude because you wear jewels”.
Just reply to those pastors saying, “I have considerable money in the bank account. Does it mean that I have to give up all of those to show that I am having a sacrificing attitude?”
Just remember: Pastors want your jewels and money to promote their denominations. So give money for those who do gospel work and for those who train Christians to be gospel workers.
And Jim,
Since you believe in Christ, I am sure you must regard Susan, Rachel V and Daniel Raj as your brothers and sisters in Christ.
That way, there is a saying “DON’T SHOOT THE MESSENGER.”
And remember, Susan, Rachel V and Daniel Raj have all been members of TPM…..They have seen first-hand some of the practises in TPM, so when they raise questions do try to answer them.
Ask them what incidents made them leave the TPM? Try and see if their greivances against the TPM church can be addressed…
Jim,
Do read the Ex-Pentecostal Forums. In this forum, Christians who have been abused by the church comment.
http://expentecostalforums.yuku.com/forums/1/t/Azusa-Street-Survivors.html
Another good resource maybe The South Indian Pentecostal Movement in the Twentieth Century
By Michael
http://books.google.com/books?id=XGiv3riaunQC&dq=%22A+somewhat+different+development+took+place+in+the+Ceylon+Pentecostal%22&source=gbs_summary_s&cad=0
In the South Indian Pentecostal Movement, Michael tells us the origins and history of the charismatic churches in south India.
And this link was forwarded to me by a TPM member
Jim,
I think you had no problem with Anil being a Methodist.
If you want I can mail you a book, called Ex-Pentecostal Thoughts by Joe Istre, an Ex-Pentecostal Pastor, who is now an engineer and attends the Lutheran Church.
Joe explains in a more rational way what went wrong with the Pentecostal Movement.
All the resources I have given you are those written by Christians.
You might also want to check out Cindy Kunsman’s blog on spiritual abuse http://undermuchgrace.blogspot.com/
She has dealt with at length how some charismatic movements have been guilty of spiritual abuse.
Cindy Kunsman is a Christian and also the gift of tongues (in your language) or glossalia (in my language).
If you are more comfortable debating theology with a Christian than an atheist like me, I could also provide you with her email ID.
Jim,
The reason why many people get so agitated over the TPM, is because so many believers die due to this ideology from lack of medical attention.
I personally know TPM members (in Chennai Irumbuilyur church) whose close relatives died because they didn’t receive medical treatment.
Why did they not go for medicines? Because they strongly believed God would heal them. That means, their faith in God was strong, they were willing to die for it.
Yet do you know what the TPM pastors said? They said these believers had died because they did not have “enough faith” that God would heal them.”
Imagine how devasted the family must have felt…Not only do they lose their son or daughter, they also have to be told they died because they were not “faithful enough.”
Jim, forget the no-jewels business. This concept of not taking medicine is very serious, because it is causing so many believers’ deaths.
That is why Jim, people get so worked up about the TPM.
JIm,
If you believe your Christ is loving, merciful and kind, you will not support such a cruel belief that has caused the death of so many people.
Do you know that the neighbours wanted to file a police case against the parents for not taking their child to the doctor?
Everyone was horrified.
I know you love your church. But if you really loved it try rectifying some of its “crueller aspects.”
Dear Brethren,
The following is a letter sent to a TPM friend. Read and be blessed.
Hi
You said, “however, the death of His saints is glorious in His eyes.”
The truth: God promised in Psalms 91: 16, “16 With long life will I satisfy him and show him my salvation.”
It is not glorious in the sight of God for TPM pastors and sisters to die at 30 yrs and 40 yrs. Most of the TPM workers die from sicknesses.
They claim the verse, “I am the Lord that healeth thee” and consider it sin to take medicines. But what happens? They are not healed as per the verse. Instead they die. Then they give an excuse saying that they are going to Zion in heaven. Thus they deceive themselves and others by falsely interpreting that verse.
Is there any verse in the Bible which says that taking medicines or going for surgery is sin? A doctor is created by God. The position of a doctor is also created by God. Jesus said that a sick man needs a physician or a doctor.
Jesus performs miracles and heals people not to close hospitals and pharmaceuticals but to show His love and save people. But at other times He has appointed doctors, teachers, lawyers, judges etc.
God appoints principalities and powers in this worldly kingdom. He also rules them.
Doctors treat people. They never heal people. Just like teachers teach but victory comes from God. TPM workers do not understand that.
TPM thinks wrongly that doctors heal. Doctors just operate and prescribe medicines.
TU Thomas never admitted the false doctrines of TPM though he preached in volumes. God is not happy about that.
Hope you understand.
JIM LIKES TO DIVERT THE MODERATOR TO A DISCUSSION TO ATHEISM FROM EXPOSING TPM. THE MODERATOR MUST RECOGNISE THIS CUNNING STRATEGY OF JIM.
Perhaps David is unaware of the fact that the moderator is an athiest and the greater reward lies heaven for briniging in a soul than to play blame game on them who already know Christ and when God’s LIVES to judge them.
PERHAPS JIM IS UNAWARE OF THE DOCTRINAL DECEPTIONS IN TPM WHICH MAKES BELIEVERS LUKEWARM TO THE WORK OF EVANGELISM WORLDWIDE.
TPM DOCTRINAL DECEPTIONS MAKES TPM BELIEVERS HAVE NO BURDEN FOR CHRIST. ALL THEY KNOW IS TO BRAG ABOUT WORKERS, BE DEPENDENT ON WORKERS JUST LIKE CATHOLICS WHO BOAST ABOUT THEIR PRIESTS.
BECAUSE OF TPM’S DECEPTIONS THE CAUSE OF EVANGELISM SUFFERS WORLDWIDE. THAT INVLOVES MILLIONS OF SOULS.
HOPE JIM UNDERSTANDS THAT RATHER THAN JUST HELP TPM BUILD THEIR “IMAGE” AND THEIR DENOMINATION AND THEIR COFFERS.
TPM DECEIVES ITSELF IN CALLING THEIR CHURCHES AS “FAITHHOME” WHEN THE ORIGINAL COMMITTMENT NOT TO OWN LANDS AND BUILDINGS HAS BEEN GROSSLY FORSAKEN.
THIS IS WORSER THAN WHAT JIM COULD ASSUME.
IN ADDITION, MANY DIE DUE TO THE FALSE DOCTRINE OF A DISTORTED DEFINITION OF “DIVINE HEALING” WITHOUT HAVING TO SERVE GOD OR TO FULFILL THEIR CALLING IN THIS WORLD. ISN’T THIS WORSE? YES, OFCOURSE.
If you are more comfortable debating theology with a Christian than an atheist like me, I could also provide you with her email ID.
This is like somebody is paying for debate games. Well sorry I’m not paid. I want to know if you are also not paid, then how you all are benefitted by these discusions??
So if we want to be true friends to a church leader/ church we will be happy about the good aspects, while strongly opposing the bad things in the church; for isn’t noble to fight for reformation in an institution you care for…?
Firstly, I dont care for any institutes cos time of His coming is almost at hand…. And moreover, does that mean that if we all debate and debate and go on debating on this topics, we’ll be able to bring the so called REFORMATION in the church?? This is not a process of reformation but a process of bringing-in the spirit of doubt and dividing the people among themselves. Rachel V, Susan, David, all of them, they arent gentiles but those who believe in Chirst, and we are all a part of body of Christ.
If I have a bad experience in any church, it doesnt mean I should bark around accusing and blaming them. I HAVE SO MANY WORST EXP WITH OTHER CHURCHES…. DO I BARK AROUND?? Its just that you are showing off that you are unable to face such a situation in life. Situation of denial, deception… and ask me what more… You keep calm, pray and leave everything to God. IF not then it indicates you are not fully trusting in Him.
The WORD of my Lord says, “Be still and know that I’m God”… “If Christ be for me, who can be against me?? ” So why worry??
The best example is you.. This kind of critisism and blame-game has taken away you from God, and God knows how many more…
I know you love your church
I dont love mine or any church, but Christ.
God appoints principalities and powers in this worldly kingdom. He also rules them.
This is very much true. Read the verses very carefully. Doctors are NOT a part of “principalities and powers” of the society.. Read it carefully “Doctor” word is never mentioned. It gives more emphasis on law of the land and paying tax to the goverment.
That is why Jim, people get so worked up about the TPM.
I told you earlier.. people getting worked up is fine. I understand that. But expressing it.. is NOT going to bring any change. EVERY CHURCH HAS GOT PROBLEMS WITHIN… let me repeat….. EVERY CHURCH…
IF THEY ARE WORKED UP THEN WHY DONT PEOPLE WHO ACCUSE, COME FORWARD AND CREATE A CHURCH of thier own…. WITHOUT BLEMISH, WITH EXACT DOCTRINAL LAYOUTS AND AS PER WHAT THEY THINK IS PERFECT…???
Anyways.. Since this debating-game isnt helping me or helping any church institutes in bringing so called “reformations”, I QUIT.
BUT THEN, IF ITS HELPING SOME OTHERS TO BURN-UP THIER ANGER, ANGUISH, FRUSTRATION, STERSS ETC OR WHATEVER…… LET THEM CONTINUE DOING SO…
Remember.. I’ve LIVED these discussions and debates… but gained NOTHING out of it…. And I bet.. NOBODYS GONNA BENEFIT ANYTHING OUT OF IT…
Before I quit… a warning to all of you::::::::
“The coming of out Lord is very very near. Its not any church or tpm or any religious institutes which are going to give you redemption and make you prepare to be caught up in His coming but your virtue. Time is nigh and its time to check your heart” ARE YOU READY???
Rachel C, : Ps 14:1 is esp. for you !!!!
Goodbye.
TPM BUYS LANDS AND BUILDINGS IN VIOLATION OF 2 PRINCIPLES:
– FIRSTLY, THEY VIOLATE THE ORIGINAL COMMITTMENT MADE BY THE TPM FOUNDER WHO VOWED TO ONLY LIVE AND WORSHIP IN RENTAL HOUSES. THAT IS WHY THEY CALLED THEIR RENTAL HOUSES AS “FAITHHOMES”.
NOW TPM USES THE NAME AND HAS SWALLOWED THE WHOLE COMMITTMENT.
– SECONDLY, THEY VIOLATE THE PRINCIPLES OF THE EARLY CHURCH APOSTLES WHERE BELIEVERS BROKE BREAD IN HOMES AS PER ACTS 2:46. THE EARLY CHURCH APOSTLES CELEBRATED THEIR MEAL AS COMMUNION. THEY DID NOT DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN THEIR MEAL AND THE COMMUNION TABLE.
HOWEVER, TPM WORKERS VISIT BELIEVER’S HOUSES ON THE FIRST WEEK OF EVERY MONTH IN THE NAME OF “HOUSE VISITING” JUST TO COLLECT THE “TITHES”.
THEY USE THESE TITHES TO BUILD LANDS AND BUILDINGS AND CALL THEM “FAITHOMES”. WHEREAS THE BIBLE SAYS IN ACTS 17:24, “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands.”
THE APOSTLES USED HOUSES TO PREACH, BREAK BREAD AND PERFORM MIRACLES. BECAUSE JESUS PROMISED, “WHEREVER 2 OR 3 ARE GATHERED IN MY NAME, I WILL BE IN THE MIDST.”
THE MILLIONS OF MONEY WHICH TPM MOBILISES WAS GIVEN TO GOD TO BUILD UP THE TRUE CHURCH WHICH REFERS TO THE HEART OF THE BELIEVER AS PER 1 COR 3:16.
INSTEAD OF BUILDING THAT TRUE TEMPLE IN EVERY BELIEVER, THOUSANDS OF TPM BELIEVERS’ HOUSES ARE LOCKED TIGHT EVERY SUNDAY MORNING AND THEY ALL GATHER IN A BUILDING MADE BY HANDS AND FOR WHICH MILLIONS HAVE BEEN WASTED.
HENCE, BEFORE GIVING MONEY THINK TWICE. GIVE TO MINISTRIES WHO EQUIP YOU TO PREACH AND TEACH THE WORD.
GIVE TO MINISTRIES WHO TEACH YOU TO BRAG ABOUT CHRIST AND HAVE A BURDEN FOR LOST SOULS AND WHO TRAINS YOU TO DO A MINISTRY WHEREVER YOU ARE.
GIVE TO MINISTRIES WHO HELP YOU TO FULFILL YOUR CALLING OF A PRIEST.
LET NOT YOUR MONEY GO TO BUILD TEMPLES WHERE GOD DOES NOT DWELL. LET NOT YOUR MONEY GO TO TPM WHO BUILD A FABRICATED FALSE IMAGE FOR THEMSELVES USING A FALSE DOCTRINE OF “MELCHIZEDEK SUCCESSORSHIP”.
REMEMBER, YOU ARE A PRIEST WHO CAN ENTER THE MOST HOLY PLACE WHERE EVEN AARON THE HIGH PRIEST COULD NOT ENTER WITH CONFIDENCE. JESUS DIED TO TAKE YOU TO HIS FATHER AND NOT TO SING PRAISES OF TPM.
YOU DO NOT NEED TPM WORKERS AS MIDDLE AGENTS OR BROKERS WHO HAVE FORSAKEN THE FOUNDERS COMMITMENT TO LIVE ONLY IN RENTAL HOUSES.
(Jim again diverts the Moderator from the topic of this blog site. This is satan’s strategy. The topic is TPM not atheism.)
TPM BUYS LANDS AND BUILDINGS IN VIOLATION OF 2 PRINCIPLES:
– FIRSTLY, THEY VIOLATE THE ORIGINAL COMMITTMENT MADE BY THE TPM FOUNDER WHO VOWED TO ONLY LIVE AND WORSHIP IN RENTAL HOUSES. THAT IS WHY THEY CALLED THEIR RENTAL HOUSES AS “FAITHHOMES”.
NOW TPM USES THE NAME AND HAS SWALLOWED THE WHOLE COMMITTMENT.
– SECONDLY, THEY VIOLATE THE PRINCIPLES OF THE EARLY CHURCH APOSTLES WHERE BELIEVERS BROKE BREAD IN HOMES AS PER ACTS 2:46. THE EARLY CHURCH APOSTLES CELEBRATED THEIR MEAL AS COMMUNION. THEY DID NOT DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN THEIR MEAL AND THE COMMUNION TABLE.
HOWEVER, TPM WORKERS VISIT BELIEVER’S HOUSES ON THE FIRST WEEK OF EVERY MONTH IN THE NAME OF “HOUSE VISITING” JUST TO COLLECT THE “TITHES”.
THEY USE THESE TITHES TO BUILD LANDS AND BUILDINGS AND CALL THEM “FAITHOMES”. WHEREAS THE BIBLE SAYS IN ACTS 17:24, “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands.”
THE APOSTLES USED HOUSES TO PREACH, BREAK BREAD AND PERFORM MIRACLES. BECAUSE JESUS PROMISED, “WHEREVER 2 OR 3 ARE GATHERED IN MY NAME, I WILL BE IN THE MIDST.”
THE MILLIONS OF MONEY WHICH TPM MOBILISES WAS GIVEN TO GOD TO BUILD UP THE TRUE CHURCH WHICH REFERS TO THE HEART OF THE BELIEVER AS PER 1 COR 3:16.
INSTEAD OF BUILDING THAT TRUE TEMPLE IN EVERY BELIEVER, THOUSANDS OF TPM BELIEVERS’ HOUSES ARE LOCKED TIGHT EVERY SUNDAY MORNING AND THEY ALL GATHER IN A BUILDING MADE BY HANDS AND FOR WHICH MILLIONS HAVE BEEN WASTED.
HENCE, BEFORE GIVING MONEY THINK TWICE. GIVE TO MINISTRIES WHO EQUIP YOU TO PREACH AND TEACH THE WORD.
GIVE TO MINISTRIES WHO TEACH YOU TO BRAG ABOUT CHRIST AND HAVE A BURDEN FOR LOST SOULS AND WHO TRAINS YOU TO DO A MINISTRY WHEREVER YOU ARE.
GIVE TO MINISTRIES WHO HELP YOU TO FULFILL YOUR CALLING OF A PRIEST.
LET NOT YOUR MONEY GO TO BUILD TEMPLES WHERE GOD DOES NOT DWELL. LET NOT YOUR MONEY GO TO TPM WHO BUILD A FABRICATED FALSE IMAGE FOR THEMSELVES USING A FALSE DOCTRINE OF “MELCHIZEDEK SUCCESSORSHIP”.
REMEMBER, YOU ARE A PRIEST WHO CAN ENTER THE MOST HOLY PLACE WHERE EVEN AARON THE HIGH PRIEST COULD NOT ENTER WITH CONFIDENCE. JESUS DIED TO TAKE YOU TO HIS FATHER AND NOT TO SING PRAISES OF TPM.
YOU DO NOT NEED TPM WORKERS AS MIDDLE AGENTS OR BROKERS WHO HAVE FORSAKEN THE FOUNDERS COMMITMENT TO LIVE ONLY IN RENTAL HOUSES.
(Jim again tries to divert the Moderator from the topic of this blog site. This is satan’s strategy. The topic is TPM not atheism.)
Hi Jim,
You know your comments are quite insulting, I sometimes find it hard to believe you are a practicing Christian. You said things like “Little Susan..” “stupid” “fool” “Devil’s work” “a desperate emotional fool” “your love for sin” (you have no knowledge about my life-style), “this is like somebody is paying for debate games. Well sorry I’m not paid. I want to know if you are also not paid” “I should bark around accusing and blaming them” (we are quite human, we can assure you ;-)”
But its not just Jim, as far as I know everyone here has been accusing other people of “Devil’s work”….Hmmmm
“Firstly, I dont care for any institutes. I dont love mine or any church, but Christ.”
Then why are you defending the church, if you don’t love it?
And being in love with an institution is not a bad thing either as long as we can be rational about it.
WHAT DAVID STATED WAS TRUE.
WE NEED TO GIVE TO MINISTRIES WHO ENCOURAGE HOUSE CHURCHES SO THAT MILLIONS NEED NOT BE WASTED ON LARGE BUILDINGS.
IT WAS A GOOD THOUGHT! “HOUSES OF BELIEVERS ARE LOCKED EVERY SUNDAY MORNING AND THEY ALL GATHER AT ONE LARGE BUILDING”.
THAT RAISES THE QUESTION, “WHY CANNOT THE HOUSES OF INDIVIDUAL BELIEVERS BE OPENED FOR WORSHIP AND MINISTRY ON SUNDAY MORNINGS?”
TPM HAS TO GIVE UP THEIR “TPM IDENTITY” AND SEEK THE IDENTITY OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD. THEN THEY SHOULD TRAIN EVERY BELIEVER TO PREACH AND TEACH THE WORD OF GOD.
LET THE TITHE MONEY OF BELIEVERS GO FOR GOSPEL WORK WHERE SOULS COULD BE WON FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD. LET NOT THE MONEY BE WASTED ON BUYING LANDS AND BUILDING LARGE BUILDINGS.
LET RENTAL HOUSES BE CALLED AS “FAITHOMES”. LET NOT TPM SUPPRESS THE INITIAL COMMITTMENT OF THE FOUNDER AND THEREBY DECEIVE PEOPLE. TPM BELIEVERS! WAKE UP FOR TRUTH!!
MAY GOD OPEN THE EYES OF EVERYONE WHO VISIT THIS BLOG SITE!! MAY GOD BLESS THE MODERATOR.
MAY GOD OPEN THE EYES OF EVERYONE WHO VISIT THIS BLOG SITE!! MAY GOD BLESS THE MODERATOR.
HAHA… God can never bless the moderator untill she believes in one… Jim rightly said that Ps 14:1 is for Rachel Chitra… What an ultimate definition of a fool !!! I really liked the way Word of God defines the term “Fool” I know this statement would bring a grin on the moderator’s face… but then thats wht the Word of God says.
WE NEED TO GIVE TO MINISTRIES WHO ENCOURAGE HOUSE CHURCHES SO THAT MILLIONS NEED NOT BE WASTED ON LARGE BUILDINGS.
IT WAS A GOOD THOUGHT! “HOUSES OF BELIEVERS ARE LOCKED EVERY SUNDAY MORNING AND THEY ALL GATHER AT ONE LARGE BUILDING”.
LET THE TITHE MONEY OF BELIEVERS GO FOR GOSPEL WORK WHERE SOULS COULD BE WON FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD. LET NOT THE MONEY BE WASTED ON BUYING LANDS AND BUILDING LARGE BUILDINGS.
Notice the most common word used here:
I’m not a supporter but “Large buildings”: usage of this word again and again only goes on to prove how jealous she is about how God has been blessing this ministry”
I happened to go to Mulund faith home… its big… I couldnt blieve it was built without any foriegn aid. Its too gud.. the Sunday worship was great… The speech-topic was “forgiveness”… truly a great blessing.. but since the faith home is very far from my place.. its sad I wont be going every Sunday.
This is for Susan, Rachel, David and all the same kind:
Pls go thru 2 Timothy 3:13,14 and Romans 16: 17,18
“Now I (God) beseech you, brethren, mark THEM (susan, rachel, david and all belonging to same catagory) which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned (every christian has learnt in some or the ther way and there can be differences in them, as I’ve learnt it differently, Jim has learnt it differently and all others); and AVOID THEM.
For they (susan, rachel, david and all belonging to same catagory) that are such serve NOT our Lord Jesus Christ, but THEIR (susan, rachel, david and all belonging to same catagory) OWN belly (As Jim said rightly “BUT THEN, IF ITS HELPING SOME OTHERS TO BURN-UP THIER ANGER, ANGUISH, FRUSTRATION, STERSS ETC OR WHATEVER…… LET THEM CONTINUE DOING SO…”); and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple (Eg: Rachel Chitra and many such others).”
I sometimes wonder how the “Word of God” is so precise in defining people.
And this is right… Even I’m not benefittig nything here… debating isnt life… but practising what you learnt would be something that would make some sense.
Anil,
Daniel Florein says in reply to Psalm 14:1:
“I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.”
(Jesus, Luke 10:21)
I find it telling that God hides himself and true understanding from “the wise and understanding” (the smart, the educated, the strong), but reveals himself to “little children” (the ignorant, the weak, the needy).
The Bible itself admits that Christianity doesn’t stand up to those who are searching for truth, who are educated, who are open-minded. God has hidden the teachings of Jesus from the wise and instead reveals them to the ignorant and misguided.
Of course this is what you’d expect the Bible to teach. The early Christians generally weren’t educated rich folks. They were poor and uneducated. It didn’t appeal to the wise. It appealed to uneducated fisherman and people like the Apostle Paul who saw visions. It’s comforting for Christians to know that the wise object because God is blinding their eyes, not because there are any real objections to Christianity.
This teaching often fills Christians with pride. It comes out especially among fundamentalists, who look down on those who are educated. They believe Christians are the really smart ones. They’re the ones who understand the universe and God, not those stupid scientists. And they’re the ones who know all about the life and teachings of Jesus, not those stupid secular bible scholars and historians.
I’m throwing my lot in with the “wise” scientists and scholars, not the “little children” who can be convinced to believe anything.
Anil & Jim’s “scientific responses” to my questioning the Bible was “I believe this because the Bible says so.”
If you mean: “I believe this because the Bible says so.”
Translation: “I have no clue about the history of that big book I’m in love with, and I don’t care either, because it’s God’s Word, and if God said it, it must be true.”
Acceptable Response: “Amen.”
Unacceptable Response: “It also says to kill homosexuals.” They might heartily agree to that one, which in case the unacceptable response becomes, “It also says to kill your children when they talk back. Have your children ever talked back?” Or, “Explain to me the authorship and transmission of the Bible, and why you think it’s God’s Word.” Or especially, “Jesus said to give anything to those who ask of you – and not only to give what they ask, but more. So please give me your wallet and your car.”
Anil,
Calling ‘atheism’ a religion is like calling ‘bald’ a hair color.” (Don Hirschberg) Or, “If atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby.
Jim,
You say: “Sorry I can’t take the time or effort to answer your questions on TPM, because the Lord is coming soon…”
“We’re in the end times.”
Translation: “My pastor said we’re living in the end times.”
Unacceptable Response: “Did you know that out of the millions of times Christians have claimed this throughout history, they’ve always been wrong?” Or, “If you’re so confident, I’m sure you’ll be confident in putting some significant money towards a bet on that.”
Anil & Jim,
Sometimes I feel so frustrated…talking to you is like talking to a wall.
You ask questions.
I give answers.
You ignore the answers & ignore my questions.
You next engage in nasty name-calling, “idiot” “fool”, etc. Is this Christ-like?
You next insult every one else commenting here.
They ask questions.
You ignore their questions also.
Why do you ask questions, if you don’t want to listen to the answers?
Or can’t you handle the truth?
You know the Bible was written by men and says bizarre things like “Stone slaves to death for theft..” “Homosexuals must be killed.”
“Atheists are fools…” “People can talk to the dead..” etc
You know that many Christians have died because they didn’t take medicines.
Your response: I don’t care to answer your questions, the end time is near.
You call Susan, Rachel V and Daniel religious fanatics.
You used words like “love for sin” “fool” “are you getting paid for this?”
When I said I felt “insulted and hurt”
You ingore that also.
And continue to insult me and everyone else here.
If you can’t answer questions, don’t bring up such issues
If you can’t apologise, don’t add insult to injury …by continuing to insult the person
If you can’t be Christian, atleast be gracious & secular
Jesus said
For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother’s womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it.”
Ace,
Can you be a little more clear….where you quoting the verse with regard to the TPM workers practise of remaning celibate?
This verse is for any one who believe it.
Hi Everyone.
Greetings in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Very happy that God has given the right verses in right time through Anil (2 Timothy 3:13,14 and Romans 16: 17,18) and Ace (Mat 19:12).
Mat 19:12 would silence many of the critics by rachels, susans, davids and likes.
I have seen many brethren testifying that they never knew before, a church called tpm. They prayed to God to reveal them the church with which they should be associated with. Praise God, God has revealed to them that tpm is the church they should have fellowship with.
And to Jims, Anils and likes Please read this verse before commenting anymore here.
Mt 7:6 – Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
This is the verse that Jesus has put in my mind, so that i souldn’t comment here with these people. Hope you understand the intensity of the above verse. When you keep on debating here, then the last part of the verse may come true beloved brethren. ” they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you”. Our spiritual life may be rived or rend here.
Hope you understand the spiritual meaning of the words ‘HOLY’ and ‘PEARL’ in Mt 7:6. It refers the Word of God or the precious gospel/revelation of kingdom of God, that God has given us.
This is the reason I didn’t reply here for many of their Q.
Thanks for defending the truth Jim, Anil, Ace and many more .
Robinson,
I thought Jim and Anil were being insulting, but you take the cake with labelling me (an atheist) and the others (your brothers and sisters in Christ) “dogs” & “pigs”
How about me quoting the Bible to you and telling your actions were like those of the “pharisees”?……………………..but that wouldn’t work right? Coz I’m the Devil quoting the Scriptures
Robinson,
There’s something called blog etiquette. When you visit a person’s house and sit on their sofa, you won’t call them a dog or a pig, Right?
You are visiting my blog, using my space (I have disabled comment moderation because I believe in freedom of expression) and calling me and my friends “dogs + pigs.”
If you disagree with a view, abuse the view. Never abuse the person.
Is this how Christ taught you to love your enemies (who by the way are Christians)?
Jim, Anil & Robinson,
You have called me & others here “fool” “idiot” “desperate” “love for sin” “dogs” and “pigs”.
Yet not once have I replied in kind.
Have I ever engaged in name calling?
You have changed every debate into “personal attacks.”
So who is more Christian – me or you?
ROBINSON HAS NOT ANSWERED MANY QUESTIONS. HE UTTERED RUBBISH WHICH HE THINKS IS “PEARL”.
HE CANNOT ANSWER QUESTIONS. THIS IS ANOTHER TPM STRATEGY TO ACCUSE AND EVADE.
1. ROBINSON SAID, “Zion and New Jerusalem are meant for the Bride of Christ.”
DOES HE MEAN THAT HIS WIFE WHO WEARS JEWELS CANNOT ENTER THESE PLACES WHICH YOU MENTIONED?
BECAUSE HIS WIFE WEARS JEWELS DOES IT MEAN THAT SHE SHOULD NOT LEAD A LIFE OF EDIFICATION TO OTHERS AND TO CHILDREN?
WHERE DOES THE BIBLE SAY THAT BELIEVERS OTHER THAN WORKERS AND SUNDAY SCHOOL TEACHERS ONLY CAN WEAR JEWELS? COULD HE ANSWER.
2. ROBINSON SAID, “Taking Medicine is not a sin, to have a greater glory there are verses which gives faith and courage to get healing from God rather from men.”
WHERE DOES THE BIBLE SAY THAT THERE IS GREATER GLORY IF MEDICINES ARE REFUSED? POINT ME TO THE VERSE.
3. ROBINSON AND ANIL (JIM) THINKS THAT THEY HAVE PEARLS WHEN IN TRUTH THEY HAVE NONSENSE WHICH DOES NOT SQARE UP TO THE SCRIPTURES.
RATHER THAN PROVE FROM THE SCRIPTURES THEY LIKE TO HOLD ON TO LIES LIKE THE PHARISEES!!
THEIR TRUST IS NOT IN TRUTH BUT IN THE FABRICATED DOCTRINES OF TPM. AND THEY CALL IT PEARL!! VERY FUNNY!!!
wait wait wait Ms. Moderator
I didn’t engage here in name calling, did I? Please read my comments with patience. I have just quoted what the Holy Scripture says. Thats it.
If ever my comments hurt you kindly pardon me.
If that is the name Bible gives for those who doesn’t accept the truth (for Ex. Psm 14 :1 – fool. Mt 7:6 – Dogs and Pigs) I cant make any change in it dear sister. It has been foretold thousands of years before. Who am I to change the course of Lord’s way? At the same time why should I fear to mention that which is Quoted in the Bible.
I never engage in name calling sis. I just quoted what is what.
Robinson,
Can I also quote the scriptures. Jesus calls religious people “O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.”
Can I now take the verse and say Jesus was talking about you when he said that?
I can’t!
So, you also cannot take a verse out of context and use that to villify someone
If the Bible says so,
“Why not bless those who curse you (none of us here cursed you, remember)” and “love your enemies”
Why are you not quoting these verses?
Was it really Christian of you, to have called fellow-Christians “dogs & pigs” because they questioned “extra-Biblical teaching” which has led to the death of so many believing Christians.
Robinson,
This approach might work better. “I know you hold different opinions. However, these are mine….Even if we never agree, I hope we can still remain friends.”
Atleast, this way we can ensure debates lead only to discovering new views and never get personal 🙂
Sis did I take that out of context? No never did I.
“O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.”
You please read the whole of that chapter. You will find Jesus saying the above words to those who are speaking ill of the Holy Spirit and the Son of Man. If I had spake anything in that manner you own every right to quote that verse.
“Why not bless those who curse you (none of us here cursed you, remember)” and “love your enemies”
Sis I didn’t curse anyone here. And it says Love you enemies and not love those who condemn God’s word or His revelations. These tpm critics are not my enemies to love them sis. If they do some harm to me I would love them. But these people here are mocking at Gods revelation. I think I don’t need any part with them nor does the Bible say so. Actually the Bible warns us to leave from such people. God forbid that I have any part with them. From all their comments I could clearly understand that they are ex-tpm members. They had left for their own reasons.
When you quote the bible verse sis, ensure that you quote the right verse for the right context.
I can keep on justifying all the comments they post here. From the way they are commenting its quite clear they wanna dig our doctrines.
It is actually they who condemns us and not we(jim, anil and myself). I don’t tell my own words. I just past the scriptures here. Thats it sis.
Robinson,
One of our Christian bloggers said this:
Matthew 7:6
“Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.”
To me, standing by itself that verse looks like a warning not waste our time trying to share the things of God with people who just won’t listen. It appears that Jesus is saying that there are some people who aren’t going to get it, they are Pigs, they are Dogs, and as a matter of fact it is dangerous to try and share the Gospel with them so don’t even bother, Right? We’ve all heard the saying. whenever someone disagrees or won’t listen we go to this verse and say we shouldn’t have thrown or Pearls before swine. But there is a problem with that… The problem is that it goes against everything else Jesus teaches even what he said in Matthew 7:1
“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”
How can we decide who we should not share with, without deciding who is a Pig, or who is a Dog. So is Jesus contradicting himself? Is he telling us in one place “Don’t Judge others” and then just a few minutes later. “OK sometimes you have to Judge others?”
Throughout his ministry Jesus reached to people that society would have thought of as Pigs and Dogs. Prostitutes, Tax collectors, Adulteresses, he talked and befriended them all. Do we really believe Jesus was telling his disciples not to? What if we look at the context of these two statements. They occur near the end of the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus had just spent a lot of time explaining to the crowds what was expected of them as disciples and as his followers. Now what if this section was about Jesus understanding the condition of the Human heart. What if it was about Jesus understanding the temptation of our hearts to want to use this information against those around us. At the end of all this teaching Jesus says, Now don’t use what I have just given you to judge others, because he knows that we will have a tendency to compare ourselves to everyone around us to look down on others judging them if they aren’t “as good” as we are. (Ever done that? I’ll admit I have)
Judging others by the Law only proves one thing. It proves we know the Law. So if we then make a mistake we will be judged harsher than someone who may not have known the Law. So we are warned not to Judge. Jesus talks about looking at ourselves first, getting the plank out of our own eye before we take the speck out of someone else’s. So where does verse 6 fit in?
What if Jesus was being sarcastic? What if he was trying to teach by overstating? What if he was showing people what to avoid. What if he was really following up the judging point by saying. If you decide that other people are Pigs, and you throw these teachings out to them as judgements against them, then don’t be surprised when that same attitude rubs off on them and they turn on you. Judging you by the same Law and your mistakes in it.
For years and years there have been some who’s biggest sounding call in the name of Christ is to tell others in the world how bad they are. They picket and talk on TV poking fun and cutting down a world that is filled with fallen and confused people. People who make mistakes and don’t know God. People who when scorned will wait for a Christian to fail, to fall, to make a mistake and then the turn and tear him to pieces. And here is the really sad part of that. When they turn and tear that person to pieces it is not just the person who is dishonored, it is Jesus Christ who takes the brunt of the attack, because we represent Christ to the world.
When we spend so much time Judging others, instead of Loving them through their falleness, the way Jesus loved me through my faults. We turn that Judgment back on ourselves and through us The world Judges our Lord.
Robinson,
These tpm critics are not my enemies to love them sis.
If we are not your enemies, talk to us.
We are not all that bad. I can assure we don’t have two horns on our heads and a forked tail 😉
I think I don’t need any part with them nor does the Bible say so. Actually the Bible warns us to leave from such people. God forbid that I have any part with them. From all their comments I could clearly understand that they are ex-tpm members. They had left for their own reasons.
From what I know of Christ – he extended grace to everyone – not just to Jews but also to prostitutes, tax collectors, fishermen Samaritans, Romans, etc. Remember Thomas who doubted? Jesus had to convince him.
Try convincing us, we are not anti-Christ, remember.
And also what would be life, If you spoke only to TPM members, Susan spoke only to ex-TPM members and I spoke only to atheists – Life would be dull, boring & we would never get a new perspective.
I can keep on justifying all the comments they post here. From the way they are commenting its quite clear they wanna dig our doctrines.
Truth will stand. Truth does not need you, me or Susan to defend it. It can stand by itself.
It is actually they who condemns us and not we(jim, anil and myself). I don’t tell my own words. I just past the scriptures here. Thats it sis.
Do they condemn you? I am not sure….I should read all the comments more carefully. Scriptures can be misintrepreted.
Many Christian husbands I know use the verse “Wives should obey and submit to their husbands” to justify why they beat their wives.
So the usage or mis-use (intentional or un-intentional) of Scriptures can happen. It is human to commit mistakes.
I am sure you will agree with me that none of us have our theology 100% right……we all have doubts, shortcomings and failings.
Sis RC – Your are giving your hundred percent to protect your friends. (since all of you sail in the same boat of criticizing tpm). Right?
I accept what you pasted above. Its no work of mine to judge others, lest I be judged.
I prefer you read that comments a bit patiently. I quoted that verses to my fellow brethren. When I knew the wiles of the devil, Its my duty to protect them at all cost. I just informed them to refrain themselves from answering the Tpm critics.( I think i am doing the same now). These susans and rachels (including you) are playing it for months.
A debate on politics, sports and corporate world etc is commendable. But not with God and His ways. Right?
Robinson,
Why should only ex-TPM members be my friends? I would love to make friends with you. I hope that my views never prejudice my interactions with people.
Then I knew the wiles of the devil, Its my duty to protect them at all cost. I just informed them to refrain themselves from answering the Tpm critics.( I think i am doing the same now). These susans and rachels (including you) are playing it for months.
A debate on politics, sports and corporate world etc is commendable. But not with God and His ways. Right?
Robinson…………..its something like this……………..I don’t know if I can state it clearly.
Cults are defined as groups in which the doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute.
So, if the TPM is not a cult, then all its practises should be able to stand up to questioning.
And even if the TPM is 100 % right and other denominations are not. “Now abide by these – faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.”
Abide by your faith – the TPM faith. But also remember that love – extending love to all – sinner, Christian, non-Christian, TPM member, Ex-TPM member – is what St Paul tells us to do.
So don’t refuse outright to talk with them. They might have been hurt by someone or something in the church – to make them ex-TPM. If you probably explained your ideology – your love for them, despite differences of opinion – then you may be able to bring them back to the TPM church.
Obviously, you like the TPM church and they don’t. Find out what they don’t like about TPM. Tell us what you love about TPM. With a healthy debate – people can get new insights.
Susan, Rachel Verghese & Daniel,
It might be better to refrain from saying “its the Devil’s work.” Robinson, Anil & Jim love Christ. By that definition they are Christians and hence cannot do the devil’s work (No man can serve two masters). If you disagree with their views, maybe you could use the words “Un-Christian” “not-Christ-like” or “extra-Biblical teaching.”
And also it might help if you didn’t use all caps – all captials make it more difficult to read.
In the blog world,
lower case – means talking
all capitals – means shouting or emphasising a point
Hi
1. Robinson said, “Zion and New Jerusalem are meant for the Bride of Christ.”
Does that mean that his wife who wears jewels cannot enter zion and new Jerusalem?
Because his wife wears jewels does it mean that she should not lead a life of edification to others and to children?
Where does the Bible say that believers other than workers and sunday school teachers only can wear jewels?
2. Robinson said, “Taking Medicine is not a sin, to have a greater glory there are verses which gives faith and courage to get healing from God rather from men.”
Where does the Bible say that there is greater glory if medicines are refused? Point the verse.
3. Jesus said that the sick need a physician. This clearly means that doctors are part of the dominion that is ruled by Jesus.
4. If Doctors do not belong to the dominion created by Jesus and if they are outlaws as Anil (Jim) states, why does TPM give communion to those doctors? All TPM Doctors as well are trained by the govt. of India to prescribe medicines and do surgery. Why are such TPM doctors and nurses given communion if they do not belong to the dominion created by Christ?
Rather than escape and evade by accusing and not assuming wrongly that what they hold as “pearls”, let them (Jim-Anil), Robinson etc come out and answer.
Robinson says, “When I knew the wiles of the devil, Its my duty to protect them at all cost. I just informed them to refrain themselves from answering the Tpm critics.( I think i am doing the same now). These susans and rachels (including you) are playing it for months.
A debate on politics, sports and corporate world etc is commendable. But not with God and His ways. Right?”
1. Is Robinson protecting them from the wiles of the Devil or is he protecting the “wiles of the devil”(in Robinson’s own words)? Robinson has not still proved that his and the TPM false doctrines to be otherwise. He still wants to hold fantastically that his theory is “pearl”.
2. There are no TPM critics here. There are only those who highlight the false doctrines of TPM. Robinson has to understand the difference between “TPM” and “TPM false doctrines”
3. These Susans and Rachels are not “playing” it for months. It is the TPM and you Robinson and Jim have been “playing around” without proving your false doctrines otherwise by your games of accusation and attention diversion. (And also by desperately trying to divert the Moderator to a discussion on atheism though you knew very well that atheism was not the topic of this blog). You were “playing” not anyone else!!
4. Robinson thinks that his unbiblical false doctrines (unable to be proved to be true yet!!) and those of TPM are “God’s ways”!! TPM’s false doctrines has deceived thousands of youth who cannot discern between right and wrong. Are they God’s ways? That is very strange.
Hope Robinson and those who play similar tricks face the truth rather than keep on evading!!
Rachel & Susan,
I am suprised that you take hints from me with such good grace. I am thankful that you can bring out the theological discrepancies….
I wanted to know if the TPM has excommunicated anyone during the Singhalese vs Tamil issue….Maybe you could give me some background on it
I ask because someone mentioned that there are some inaccuracies…it would help, if you could site some references.
The person, who asked is himself a Sri Lankan Tamil, so I was curious….
Dear Moderator
If you could provide more background information on the matter, I could recollect relevant information or could enquire very reliable sources.
Or could you point me to the blog message date or which decade of the incident etc. What did the Sri Lankan Tamil person ask precisely and what was the alegged innaccuracy?
Hope to hear from you on the above.
Please read the following for your information:
HISTORY OF A TPM PASTOR BY NAME “LUKE” OR “LOOKKA”
He is an ex-catholic. Then, after the experience of salvation, he was ministering as a pastor with Sis. Sarah Naoroji. Who is Sister Sarah Naoroji? She was the chief founding song composer in CPM.
She left CPM around 1969 because of the adulterousness that was prevailing in CPM at that time, the author being Pastor Alwin who was the master Founder of all the “pet” doctrines of TPM like Eunuch-Celibate-Apostleship, Melchizedek priesthood for workers, 144,000 workers etc.
Sister Sara left CPM and was ministering in her own church in Kelly’s in Chennai. God also used her as a mighty apostle with signs, wonders and miracles.
Pastor Luke left her ministry and joined TPM. What is the reason for this transition? I believe the predominant reasons are the following:
1. In Sarah Naoroji’s church, there are no sisters to cook chicken fry in coconut milk and provide apple juice every one hour.
2. There are no facilities of carpeted floors, western closets, cars, A/c’s etc.
Pastor Luke left for the above reasons and most probably not for the reasons, which he states (bluffs) in conventions. Those reasons, which he states, are just to please the TPM establishment (which certainly would get him special treatment (chicken fry) from Moopathi Chaechi for lunch.
Sometimes he even speaks ill of Sister Sarah Naoroji’s ministry. Thus, his goal is to praise TPM and not Jesus Christ.
Not realizing the above, the TPM believers in thousands naively sit and hear his bluffs and utter tens of vociferous “hallelujahs” as well.
Remember, I love Looka and his calling but certainly not his “trust” in moopathi’s chicken fry and his bluffs (of TPM superiority-which works against the unity of the body of Christ for which Jesus yearned in John 17) as well!
Hi,
Thanks for your appreciation and you are welcome.
God is using your blog site as an instrument to open the eyes of thousands of TPM believers who visit here.
Let us pray that TPM follow a true sanctification process by shedding all their self-glorification and their false doctrines fabricated specifically to achieve that purpose.
May God bless you.
Yes, ace, all the false doctrines of TPM will not be seen in the new earth and heaven.
It will be seen only in TPM. People who rationalise and justify the false doctrines will also be seen only in TPM.
He that is unjust (by fabricating worker -glorifying doctrines), let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy (by following Pas. Alwin’s unbiblical celibacy doctrines who later fell in adultery) , let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous (by willing to forsake TPM’s false doctrines), let him be righteous still: and he that is holy (by glorifying Christ rather than TPM workers), let him be holy still.
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
God is a devouring fire. You must first remember that, you ace and company.
God does not tolerate your deceptions of the word of God which you do time and again just to glorify your workers.
Do not accuse people who expose the truth. They are God’s servants.
First you stop distorting the scriptures. God will judge you in TPM who distort the scriptures and not those who speak the truth.
Do not think people will be fooled by your threats!!
Phew ! Ace is next in line…….
After Robinson, Jim and Anil, its next Ace’s turn to tell us how we are all going to get hell……..for rape, murder, extortion? No! We are all going to go to hell because we are free thinkers and have dared to question.
So listen, everyone, free thinking is banned! Listen to your church! Listen to your pastor! If there’s abuse going on, shut up about it! If you don’t shut up about it, you’ll go to hell for being rebellious against the church! 😉
TPM CREATES A TERROR OF FEAR. HOW ??
TPM wants to suppress the believers. Why? So that they can enjoy the money from the believers. How do they do it? By creating a terror of fear using the following statements.
1) Firstly, TPM threatens believers saying, “Don’t speak against the Lord’s anointed”
How to respond to them?
Tell them, “The truth is that even the believers are anointed to be Holy & Royal priests as per 1 Peter 2 : 5, 9. Just because you are anointed does not mean you are licensed to misinterpret the Bible verses”.
2) Secondly, TPM threatens believers saying, “Korah and his sons rebelled against Moses and they were destroyed”.
How to reply to this?
The truth is that Korah wanted to become a priest. But in the Old Testament, priesthood status and access to the Most Holy Place were given only to Aaron and his sons. However, in the new testament all believers of Christ are priests as per 1 Peter 2: 5, 9 and they also have access to the Most Holy Place as per Hebrews 10:19 which says, “Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus…”
Thus TPM does not know that believers have the authority which Korah never had”.
Tell them that exposing the misinterpretations of TPM has no relation to what Korah did. Exposing the misinterpretations of TPM is not rebellion. It is the TPM misinterpretations which are rebellion against God and His truth. Tell them this.
3) TPM threatens believers saying, “Uzzah touched the ark and he was killed”.
TPM does not know that Uzzah died not because of his sin but because of the sin of the Priests. The law was that the ark should be carried by the priests in their shoulders and not in an Oxen-cart. But the priests forgot that law and were careless. TPM hides this truth and instead passes the blame to Uzzah.
Tell them that the Ark was holy but the misinterpretations of TPM are not holy.
Conclusion: Thus TPM tries all hooks and crooks to threaten the believers to keep them as slaves & dependent on TPM. So do not be afraid of their threatening. Fear God and truth and not their lies.
Their curses and threats will turn against them. Our God is a God of truth. Those who speak the truth, do not fear.
Just beware!! Another instrument in a stack of cards (in the likes of Jim and Anil) trying desperately to divert the discussion away from the topic of this blog site!!
This is one of the type of instruments in TPM which deceives thousands of young girls using doctrinal deceptions.
People like this ace is one grim reminder of the extent TPM believers are brainwashed by the establishment.
Do not give up before these male chauvinists!! Rise up for truth.
Ace will come and go but the truth of God will prevail!! Just remember, God used Deborah, Hannah, Mary Magdalene and many others for His glorious ministry!! Some demons do not like women.
I would request the Moderator not to permit this ace to put up posts any further. Such posts do not contribute to the purpose of this blog and furthermore, it is unscripturally abusive against women.
By blaming those who speak the truth, you ace are storing curses for you and your wicked worker-glorifying generations like as Jews said let His (Jesus) ” let his blood be on me (ace) and all our (ace’s) children!!
All TPM gossipers like ace and worker glorifiers and doctrinal distorters, remember it!!
SISTER VS A WIFE?
An apostle needs no permission to take a sister to work along with him. That is why we see Paul the apostle had many sisters who worked with him in the ministry. Eg. Phoebe (Rom 16:1), Tryphosa, Tryphena, Persis (Rom 16:12),
However, in 1 Corinthians 9:5, Paul claims his authority to marry. Why? Because the other apostles also were married. No apostle renounced their marriage life because Jesus said, “What God has joined together let not man put asunder”. Jesus commanded to renounce marriage & property only if the wife or property hindered the husband from following Jesus and thus gain eternal life (Matt 19:29).
However, TPM falsely teaches to renounce marriage before doing ministry. Bible nowhere says that celibacy is a prerequisite to be an apostle. That was the fabrication of Pas. Alwin.
That is why Pastor Manohar, Pastor Joseph lived with their wife and had children born in the faith home just like Pastor Paul the founder. Because Pastor Paul was not from a catholic background but was a catechist in a Baptist church where Pastors marry.
Pastor Alwin celibacy doctrine from Catholicism and Buddhism which was prevalent in Ceylon. This Alwin committed adultery in France faith home and was excommunicated in India.
People who do not know the above keep bragging about celibacy consecration and about the TPM pastors instead of bragging about Jesus Christ.
Such people display zeal for TPM workers and not for Christ.
Ace,
You are hilarious! Women are evil! Women’s best friends are demons! Demons like women! Eve got sued (by which lawyer, may I ask?)! A woman is behind every man’s fall!
Are you even real? or is this supposed to be satire!
I have heard of Christians being misogynist, but you are misogynist to the point of being thought insane.
If a Christian church can accept you with your intense hatred for women, am I glad I don’t belong to it!
Dear Moderator and my friends,
I think Jesus loves women more and first appeared to a woman after His resurrection. The men did not get this opportunity.
God chose women to be mighty prophets of God like Kathryn Kuhlmann etc.
TPM believers cannot think beyond what they are trained or brainwashed to think. Actually it might appear that they spend more time for God. However, their knowledge of the scriptures is very poor.
The reason is because they are made to depend on the workers like suckling babes. You should see them run on Sundays for the sermon and especially the Irumbuliyur convention just like people flock to Sabari Mala.
TPM believers are not trained to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit and get a word of encouragement and knowledge let alone share that knowledge as gospel to others.
Only thing they know is defend the workers irrationally.
You would have observed ace by now. There was no quotations from scriptures. Just copy and paste from a chapter and with a distorted interpretation. All TPM people like these know to threaten and curse meaninglessly.
Ineffeminate usually means gay. Not that I have anything against that community. But I can assure you neither me nor David Raj are gay.
And isn’t calling some ineffeminate, hitting below the belt?
And David pl call me Rachel, I am no longer the moderator i.e. I don’t moderate comments. I have disabled comment moderation.
David,
Maybe it was your defense of Godly women, that made Ace say you were ineffiminate….though why he should I don’t know. Ace is highly illogical! I wonder if he’ll next call Christ ineffiminate…… because Christ wanted women to take part in theology (Mary – Martha story) and highly respected women from all strata of soceity (including prostitutes).
why to argue when there is no time,the coming of the lord is very nigh,i wish and pray,no single soul should go into satans hands
Is there a remedy for ace’s sickness of abusing and accusing just like the Accuser in Rev 12?
Is there a remedy for the scriptural distortions of TPM?
The Lord’s coming is nigh. So try to have a real sanctification not just in white dresses but also in giving up the doctrinal distortions.
Sherly seems to be reluctant to pray for TPM to stop their scriptural misinterpretations and their deception of youth with false doctrines.
Pray also for the deceived and brainwashed souls in TPM who are elslaved by false doctrines.
Dear Sherly,
why to argue when there is no time,the coming of the lord is very nigh,i wish and pray,no single soul should go into satans hands
Well, you have just joined the argument or debate by stating your view 😉
That was Rachel’s excellent logic!
Sherly’s statement, “why to argue…” is self refuting. Sherly has already got into an argument and seems to disprove the meaning of argumentation.
TPM loves to be vociferous on their doctrinal claims but when their falsities are challenged theologically they turn back and say, “Do not argue”. That is ridiculous!!
TPM believers seem to buy into this same habit and follow suit in their statements.
The sad part is why Rachel refuses to function as a moderator since some posts as those of ace which do no good to the purpose of this blog could be disallowed.
Susan,
The reason I have stopped moderating comments is because I am not online regularly. So there is always a backlog of comments…..People don’t like it if their comments are kept pending for days on end..
And about ace…well …..I’ll edit his comments
Making a come-back… And this is me.. very ME reloaded…
The Bible itself admits that Christianity doesn’t stand up to those who are searching for truth, who are educated, who are open-minded.
You shud be open minded, but not soo much OPEN that your brain leaks…
God chose women to be mighty prophets of God like Kathryn Kuhlmann etc.
How come this “etc” comes here wen not more than 1 name is mentioned?? May be because they numbered in the finger tips??
Is there a remedy for ace’s sickness of abusing and accusing just like the Accuser in Rev 12?
You wud have never asked this if you believed in the existence of God to have a remedy.. Is there any remedy for David’s lack of understanding in interpretting Rev 12?? —- YES.. Kneel and pray to God to give you wisdom..
The Lord’s coming is nigh. So try to have a real sanctification not just in white dresses but also in giving up the doctrinal distortions.
Wen Lord’s coming is nigh, how can you pray for others wen you are not sure if you are ready?? btw, do you wear white sarees and dress?? if there are some of them, why u worried?? PREPARE YOURSELF David…
Pray also for the deceived and brainwashed souls in TPM who are elslaved by false doctrines.
Please pray if you have time and ASSURED that ur name is already there in the book of life… btw, It is “enslaved” not “elslaved”
Ineffeminate usually means gay
Arent you sure sure about it— (USUALLY) and you are a journalist!!! I hope now you know its meaning.
correct your rotten organization or denomination where you belongs,
I strongly support this because I’ve experienced the true color of it…. its dirtier than what you can ever think… beyond imagination… not mentioning names here.. not worth… theres a difference betn u murmuring and complaining natured people and ME.
If a Christian church can accept you with your intense hatred for women, am I glad I don’t belong to it!
Theres no hatred for the women.. but respect, love and care…. God created man and woman with seperate identity with different qualities. Men has what women dont… Women posseses what men dont… eg: patience, grace, love, fullness of care, a loving heart, a peaceful nature, soothing smile, and so on. And men… I dont need to mention them. And so is their role accordingly in the society…
Its the law of nature crafetd out by the Mighy hand above. (For Rachel Chitra this is stupidity… but ready to accept adamantly that world popped up into existence with a Big Bang from nowhere) SHE deserves a painful delivery of babies… cos that is the law of nature and that how God cursed HER. Painless delivery these days are artificially done which is going against the law of nature… In the same manner so was the man cursed that he will earn for the family and will run the household with sweat and struggle… So they are strong, sturdy and good in every way…. cos that is the law.
Cooking is considered to be a woman’s work… Right?? But have you noticed that Men are the world’s best chefs and bartenders??? You think of any such examples of what woman do mostly and you’ll notice that the man is stands out in them, cos they are created that way.
However, in 1 Corinthians 9:5, Paul claims his authority to marry. Why?
Hmmm.. I’m tired now trying to explain this again and again…. My question to this question is: Was Paul the Apostle who wrote Corinthians married??? Theres a whole chapter explaining why NOT….. Marrying and serving the Lord IS NOT A SIN and is a HIGH calling thats right. But the apostles in this context chose the BEST way to minister the Lord and that is a HIGHER calling… Does this makes sense NOW?? I hope YES.
Who abuse? Only your supporters made this coloumn for gossiping and labelling our TPM workers as adulters!
RIGHT. Bad use of internet again…. its gosipping more than labelling… Its way of becoming popular in the internet. The thing is if the authir had been an athiest, she would have pulled downt the whole blog as these gossips makes no sense at all for her. And as far as she is thinking of reconstruction or bringing change to the religious institutes as she has claimed before, its a self-contradiction…. u can make out.. she already popular…
EG: Tomorrow if you begin a blog with heading as “I’m an aliegn from Mars” with some attractive postings and fancy pictures, people wud flock into your blog like never before. And the result..???? YOU ARE FAMOUS !!!!
that is why Pastor Manohar, Pastor Joseph lived with their wife and had children born in the faith home just like Pastor Paul the founder.
Do you know that Pas Manohar spent more than 20 yrs in Delhi center doing the kitchen duty??? No sister, no mother in the whole of tpm holds that kind of record… “Men topping the kitchen duty too !!!!” and you say, Sisters should be allowed to preach, when they are told to sit and take rest instead of giving speaches which wud leave them exhausted within 15 mins ??
Are you even real? or is this supposed to be satire!
What do you mean.. that you are so popular on the internet that people have started using malicious programing codes and hacking tools to automatically generate posts here??
All TPM gossipers like ace and worker glorifiers and doctrinal distorters, remember it!!
Point me a blog where tpm believers have flocked together to gossip like you people here about other faiths and cursing thier doctrines when even young sunday school students of TPM can point out the faults in other churches…. but we dont do that dirty business nor encourage our generations for it… Mind it.
We are all going to go to hell because we are free thinkers and have dared to question.
Not “Free-thinkers” but this is “open-mindedness”… so wide open that all your brains have already started falling down.
…and “WE Dared to question/ WE are free thinkers”… wht does that mean?? that you are not an athiest but fanatics like Susan and the other Rachel ORSusan and Rachel are also athiests??? Explain the “WE”
Do not accuse people who expose the truth. They are God’s servants.
Why dont you all God’s servants please COME FORWARD leave all your education, Job and everything and begin His ministry?? Start a new church…. WHY CANT YOU??? TAKE UP THE SWORDS (BIBLE) AND COME OUT AND DO HIS MINISTRY… CREATE A TRUE CHURCH, IF YOU KNOW TRUTH MORE THAN WHATEVER…. HAVE GUTS????
I ASK YOU AGAIN… “U HAVE GUTS to do that ???”
God is using your blog site as an instrument to open the eyes of thousands of TPM believers who visit here.
First technically, a “blog” is never a “site” and a “site” is never a “blog”. So this is a blog and not site and also NOT so called “blog site”
Secondly God is never using this blog as some instrument to open eyes of blah blah blah…. wen the author/owner/moderator herself is an athiest, the greatest fool accordning to the “Word of God'”…. So here Susan is trying to justify what?? or Susan is trying to make fun of the owner of this blog??? I doubt…
Just beware!! Another instrument in a stack of cards (in the likes of Jim and Anil) trying desperately to divert the discussion away from the topic of this blog site!!
Frankly asking…. btw, what is the main stream discussion or… gossip topic here…??? What I feel is tht its a blog created by someone who has undergone harsh sufferings of Chrstian life which is indeed a tough job as a christian esp in TPM.
About that test for me (Do remember this is not high-school) by rachel Chitra when I gave her the Athiest’s test…
I very well know that you are not in the high-school and nor am I… I know that you are much more matured now.. So why cant you answer all my questions??? I believe they are easy for you and so is for every man… Cos ur afraid that you’ll be proven a ‘fool’ and so will the ‘word of God’ be.. as in Ps. 14:1. Afraid or dare to answer the simple questions??
JIM LIKES TO DIVERT THE MODERATOR TO A DISCUSSION TO ATHEISM FROM EXPOSING TPM. THE MODERATOR MUST RECOGNISE THIS CUNNING STRATEGY OF JIM.
The moderator can never recognise anything which doesnt even exist.. and esp.. when she is an athiest…
Anil might get offended, he’s Methodist.
So what if I am a methodist…. ?? I’m not at all offended… Most importantly, I’am a Christian who follow Christ and not some pentacostal or Catholic or Methodist…
Your spellings are atrocious! I sometimes can’t even make out what you are trying to say. I think you can write legibly, but in your anger you choose not to.
Understand the content not the spellings.. Spellings arent important here wen you can really understand them. if you understand, well and gud. If not you can ask for an explanation….
That was Rachel’s excellent logic!
Rachel Chitra here refers the words from Bible, which means nothing to her.. (shes an athiest) and if you think this was so called a “logic” of hers wen Ps 14:1 screams to declare her as a fool, then I think you dont respect the Law of God and you too belong to the same category…
The sad part is why Rachel refuses to function as a moderator since some posts as those of ace which do no good to the purpose of this blog could be disallowed.
I challenge the moderator if she can supress or hide any of the posts from anybody unless theres any usage of of “vulgarity” or “obsceneness” and that every postings should be prohibited from being getting posted which promotes strife. Check out the votings on the top…. “This blog acts as cause of strife” stands out with highest in the online votings.
And the good purpose??? What is it here that is good… Everybody spitting venom and are calling themselves as “free-thinkers”
Ok, guys listen up!
According to Jim, “my brain leaks.”
Kathryn Kuhlmann…..whom else to list? Amy Carmichael, Florence Nightingale, Joan of Arc, Saint Brigid, Jocye Meyer, Catherine Marshall, Ruth Munce, Francine Rivers, Corrie Ten Boom, Elisabeth Elliot, Joanna southcott, Catherine Booth, Elizabeth Fry, Ellen G White, Evangeline Booth, Hannah Whitall Smith, Li Tim-Oi, Louisa Maria Hubbard, Mother Ann Lee, Phoebe Palmer, Mary Baker Eddy, Jackie Pullinger, Mother Teresa, Mme Guyon, Mother Cabrini, Elizabeth Ann Seton, Fuastina Kowalska, Katherine Drexel, Rose Philipine Duchesne, Teresa of Avila, St Catherine, St Therese’, Antoinette Bourignon, Heloise, Julian of Norwich, Clotilde.
In the New Testament there were women like Lydia, Phoboe, Mary Magdalene, Mary of Bethany, Mary – mother of Jesus and Prsicilla.
Jim corrects David’s English: It is “enslaved” not “elslaved”
But then he says “Understand the content not the spellings.. Spellings arent important here wen you can really understand them. if you understand, well and gud. If not you can ask for an explanation….”
He also further corrects us: “First technically, a “blog” is never a “site” and a “site” is never a “blog”. So this is a blog and not site and also NOT so called “blog site”
That was Rachel’s excellent logic!
Rachel Chitra here refers the words from Bible, which means nothing to her.. (shes an athiest) and if you think this was so called a “logic” of hers wen Ps 14:1 screams to declare her as a fool, then I think you dont respect the Law of God and you too belong to the same category…
Jim,
Susan was referring to my comment to Sheryl and I didn’t refer to any Bible verse.
I challenge the moderator if she can supress or hide any of the posts from anybody unless theres any usage of of “vulgarity” or “obsceneness” and that every postings should be prohibited from being getting posted which promotes strife. Check out the votings on the top…. “This blog acts as cause of strife” stands out with highest in the online votings.
Jim,
This is my blog, I can do what I please with it 😉
And about the voting and poll, you are forgetting I was the one who posted it.
My father is not a British man. i make mistakes while writing english. With little English, you gossiping menials are writing too much. It seems you are all graduated from oxford university and Harvard university. sick women!
Ace,
I am sorry I did not mean to make fun of your English. I thought you were doing it purposely to tease us. And even if ur English is bad, I am sure you can get the names of people right – you called Susan “Susuan.” I am sure you will not like it if someone misspells your name.
But calling us “gossiping menials” and saying we are “sick women” is quite Un-Christian of you.
Jim,
Making a come-back… And this is me.. very ME reloaded…
Well we are glad you got your batteries recharged 😉
Daniel Florein of http://unreasonablefaith.com says “The Bible itself admits that Christianity doesn’t stand up to those who are searching for truth, who are educated, who are open-minded.”
But I do agree with the sum and substance of the article.
“You shud be open minded, but not soo much OPEN that your brain leaks…”
Jim,
You say my brain leaks because of my atheist beliefs, if I said the same thing to you, how would you react? How can you constantly keep insulting someone? How do you pray at night with the knowledge that you have hurt someone?
God chose women to be mighty prophets of God like Kathryn Kuhlmann. How come this “etc” comes here wen not more than 1 name is mentioned?? May be because they numbered in the finger tips??
Why shouldn’t God bless women as well and why can’t women preach the gospel? Are men and women not equal in Christ? I have already provided a long list of Christian godly women. If you want I can even make a list of 100….there are countless women dedicated to the service of God. Why should one’s sex determine one’s pastoral abilities?
You wud have never asked this if you believed in the existence of God to have a remedy.. Is there any remedy for David’s lack of understanding in interpretting Rev 12?? —- YES.. Kneel and pray to God to give you wisdom..
How can you say you are holier than David that you can stand on a high pedestal and advise him to “Kneel and pray to God to give you wisdom.” Are you saying he does not have wisdom? He’s supposed to be your brother in the body of Christ.
Ineffeminate usually means gay Arent you sure sure about it— (USUALLY) and you are a journalist!!! I hope now you know its meaning.
Insulting as usual! Phew!
<i>correct your rotten organization or denomination where you belongs,
I strongly support this because I’ve experienced the true color of it…. its dirtier than what you can ever think… beyond imagination… not mentioning names here.. not worth… theres a difference betn u murmuring and complaining natured people and ME.
You do not want other Christians criticizing the TPM, yet you criticize their churches. Whats the difference?
For Rachel Chitra this is stupidity… but ready to accept adamantly that world popped up into existence with a Big Bang from nowhere. SHE deserves a painful delivery of babies… cos that is the law of nature and that how God cursed HER. Painless delivery these days are artificially done which is going against the law of nature…
Well if God can come from nowhere, then I guess the universe can also. I can’t believe you want women to suffer from labour pain without medication. Quite heartless!
Cooking is considered to be a woman’s work… Right?? But have you noticed that Men are the world’s best chefs and bartenders??? You think of any such examples of what woman do mostly and you’ll notice that the man is stands out in them, cos they are created that way.
Cooking is considered to be a woman’s work? How sexist! And are you saying the fact that there are more male bartenders than female bartenders, makes men superior to women?
On another thought, I thought you’d be happy there are not too many women bartenders because of all your preoccupations with morality.
Who abuse? Only your supporters made this coloumn for gossiping and labelling our TPM workers as adulters!
RIGHT. Bad use of internet again…. its gosipping more than labelling… Its way of becoming popular in the internet. The thing is if the authir had been an athiest, she would have pulled downt the whole blog as these gossips makes no sense at all for her. And as far as she is thinking of reconstruction or bringing change to the religious institutes as she has claimed before, its a self-contradiction…. u can make out.. she already popular…
EG: Tomorrow if you begin a blog with heading as “I’m an aliegn from Mars” with some attractive postings and fancy pictures, people wud flock into your blog like never before. And the result..???? YOU ARE FAMOUS !!!!
Who is to decide what is bad use of the internet and what is good use? Its just a matter of personal opinion. “Gossip” – is the idle talk or rumor, especially about the personal or private affairs of others. Talking about a very “public church” and its very “public doctrines” is not gossip. If I debated on Dravidian politics, would you call it gossip? No! Because you know its in the public forum.
Fame? You wouldn’t be further off the mark. I have written for Deccan Chronicle and Indian Express – both paper’s circulation is more than a few lakhs..my blog readership is hardly 40,000. If I wanted readers, I already have my job. I don’t need the blog.
Again, this post was written more than a year ago and is just one of more than 200 posts I have written.
Why do I post on Christianity if I am not a Christian? Because I don’t support spiritual abuse.
that is why Pastor Manohar, Pastor Joseph lived with their wife and had children born in the faith home just like Pastor Paul the founder.
Do you know that Pas Manohar spent more than 20 yrs in Delhi center doing the kitchen duty??? No sister, no mother in the whole of tpm holds that kind of record… “Men topping the kitchen duty too !!!!” and you say, Sisters should be allowed to preach, when they are told to sit and take rest instead of giving speaches which wud leave them exhausted within 15 mins ??
I wish you wouldn’t grossly underestimate the working capabilities of women or maybe you have too little exposure. Women in the workforce work just as long and just as hard as men; they don’t get any special privileges.
Are you even real? or is this supposed to be satire!
What do you mean.. that you are so popular on the internet that people have started using malicious programing codes and hacking tools to automatically generate posts here??
As usual you miss the point. I thought it might be you posting as Ace.
Point me a blog where tpm believers have flocked together to gossip like you people here about other faiths and cursing thier doctrines when even young sunday school students of TPM can point out the faults in other churches…. but we dont do that dirty business nor encourage our generations for it… Mind it.
Jim, you are contradicting yourself. You and Ace have just now spoken about how rotten other congregations are.
Not “Free-thinkers” but this is “open-mindedness”… so wide open that all your brains have already started falling down.
Can’t you talk sense? Must it always be insult, insult and more insults!
You know pretty well Susan and Rachel V are Christians. You knew what I was referring to when I talked about “free thinking.”
Why should Ace condemn us to Hell for our views?
Why dont you all God’s servants please COME FORWARD leave all your education, Job and everything and begin His ministry?? Start a new church…. WHY CANT YOU??? TAKE UP THE SWORDS (BIBLE) AND COME OUT AND DO HIS MINISTRY… CREATE A TRUE CHURCH, IF YOU KNOW TRUTH MORE THAN WHATEVER…. HAVE GUTS????
I ASK YOU AGAIN… “U HAVE GUTS to do that ???”
When you are not willing to give up your education or job in favour of full-time ministry, why must David, Susan or Rachel V do that just so that they can de-bunk the doctrines of the TPM?
If you have the guts to give up every ambition of yours to work with the TPM, then you can ask other people whether they have the guts to start a church opposing the TPM.
Secondly God is never using this blog as some instrument to open eyes of blah blah blah…. wen the author/owner/moderator herself is an athiest, the greatest fool accordning to the “Word of God'”…. So here Susan is trying to justify what?? or Susan is trying to make fun of the owner of this blog??? I doubt…
Susan is only blessing me. I might not believe in god, but I am touched that she can show such kindness. And here you are again, insulting me ….the greatest fool accordning to the “Word of God'”.
Can I say you are like the Pharisees and Saducees and claim I am speaking the Word of God? The Old Testament also approves of slavery. Do you also approve of slavery?
The Old Testament also wants homosexuals stoned to death. Do you also want the homosexuals stoned to death?
You quote the Bible to me and call me a “fool,” can I quote Bhagat Singh to you?
What I feel is tht its a blog created by someone who has undergone harsh sufferings of Chrstian life which is indeed a tough job as a christian esp in TPM.
Harsh is a very relative term. In fact I don’t have much to complain about my old church other than I found the teaching irritating. I never thought I’d say this but the AG church that I was a member concentrated more on conversions than on strict and over-legalistic doctrine. My friends, however, have been spiritually abused. And I am not a member of the TPM. I never was a member. And even if someone had suffered harshly, does it make their opinion invalid?
About that test for me (Do remember this is not high-school) by rachel Chitra when I gave her the Athiest’s test…
That test was insulting to say the least. You ask me to answer a question in which the only choices are either “I am an idiot” or “I am in denial.”
Can I give you a similar test. Can I say if you believe in God a) you don’t know anything b) you are a fool or c) you are arrogant and in denial?
I have asked you so many questions on God and science. Not one did you answer.
Afraid to answer simple questions?
Stop being so melodramatic. Its just a discussion not World War III
Ceylon Pentecostal Mission (now TPM) Founder Pastor Paul or Ramankutty had accepted several married people into full-time TPM ministry and even had children.
Pastor Paul ordained Pastor K.E. Abraham, who was married, as the founder of Indian Pentecostal Church (IPC). This event has also been mentioned in Pastor Paul’s biography.
Though Pastor Paul advocated pastors to take the vow of celibacy like the Apostle Paul, he never demanded celibacy from anyone or rejected anyone for priesthood on the grounds that they were married.
If Pastor Paul had rejected anyone from ministry for being married, then it would violating the principles of 1 Timothy 4:1-3 (Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.)
Chief Pastor Alwin de Alwis introduced some controversial doctrines in the latter part of 1950’s and early part of 1960’s. Pastor Alwin supposedly taught that the only reason for marriage is lack of self-control and that an essential requirement for being a pastor was celibacy. These were not the teachings of Pastor Paul, so Pastor Freddy and the council of senior ministers rejected these.
Pastor M. Daniel formally excommunicated the sitting Chief Pastor Alwin of CPM on charges of sexual impropriety while both of them were in France. After Pastor Paul’s son Freddy Paul became the Chief Pastor, the first announcement he wanted to make was that it would be perfectly acceptable for pastors and sisters to marry and remain in the ministry. With that in mind, he called a meeting of the senior ministers. However, the majority of the senior pastors suggested that if they make such an announcement, majority of the young male workers and female workers might pair up and request to be married.
Remember, they were/are living in a communal environment (faith homes). That would have caused irreparable reputational damage to the then CPM in the eyes of the world. In addition, their argument was that CPM has a tradition of celibate ministers and if many ministers got married, it would completely change that tradition.
Therefore, the decision was that they would not make such an announcement and would just remain silent on the issue of celibacy. That is why, I think, we are not able to find any official statement on this issue from TPM. They also decided that if anyone wanted to get married and wanted to continue in the ministry, he/she would be heavily discouraged or encouraged to leave the ministry and then marry. However, if any one insisted that he wanted to marry and continue in the ministry then he will be allowed to do so.
After the Pastor Alwin crisis, several pastors left the ministry to get married. Some of the pastors in India got married and continued in the ministry. The TPM church in USA has married ministers.
I just read some of Ace’s comments …..found it too nasty and deleted it!
Ugh!
Anil,
I happened to go to Mulund faith home… its big… I couldnt blieve it was built without any foriegn aid. Its too gud.. the Sunday worship was great… The speech-topic was “forgiveness”… truly a great blessing.. but since the faith home is very far from my place.. its sad I wont be going every Sunday.
I am happy for you, if you found the TPM church a blessing.
This is for Susan, Rachel, David and all the same kind:
Pls go thru 2 Timothy 3:13,14 and Romans 16: 17,18
2 Timothy 3:13,14But evil people and impostors will go from bad to worse as they deceive others and are themselves deceived.But as for you, continue in what you have learned and found to be true, because you know from whom you learned it.
Anil, you say I am evil and I am an imposter? Can you list out my evil actions? Or if you feel being an atheist automatically makes me immoral, don’t bother answering. Or do you think commenting is the evil action here? If so don’t you think you are over-reacting?
And Imposter? There is definitely a person Rachel with a ration card, identity card, etc behind this blog. And Rachel Chitra is not a pen name, it is my real name, so I don’t see in what way I’m an imposter.
Every christian has learnt in some or the ther way and there can be differences in them, as I’ve learnt it differently, Jim has learnt it differently and all others); and AVOID THEM.
All of us have differences of opinion, granted. You avoid dicussions or participate. Its solely upto you.
For they (susan, rachel, david and all belonging to same catagory) that are such serve NOT our Lord Jesus Christ, but THEIR (susan, rachel, david and all belonging to same catagory) OWN belly.
Anil, when did you become knowledgable about my eating habits? For all you know, you might be much fatter than me. If you are fatter than me, can I accuse you of the sin of “gluttony”?For all you know I maybe anorexic…Your statements are Quite ridiculous!
(As Jim said rightly “BUT THEN, IF ITS HELPING SOME OTHERS TO BURN-UP THIER ANGER, ANGUISH, FRUSTRATION, STERSS ETC OR WHATEVER…… LET THEM CONTINUE DOING SO…”);
If you are saying my blog is a stress-buster, thanks for the compliment. And also thanks for letting us “continue doing so..” 😉
and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple (Eg: Rachel Chitra and many such others).”
What nonsense! Where is the deception? Whom have I deceived? And why do people who agree with me automatically have to have a low IQ?
And this is right… Even I’m not benefittig nything here… debating isnt life… but practising what you learnt would be something that would make some sense.
If you are not benefiting from this dicussion. Why do you check my blog so often? Your visits get registered, if you didn’t know that.
Can I give you a similar test. Can I say if you believe in God a) you don’t know anything b) you are a fool or c) you are arrogant and in denial?
Yes. I have an answer to this. My choice is (b) I am a Fool !!!!.. The Word of my Lord telles me in Acts 5:41 “And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.”
Now ur turn to answer my questions !!! Ready??
You say my brain leaks because of my atheist beliefs, if I said the same thing to you, how would you react?
My reaction will be as cool as above. Read Acts 5:41
I have already provided a long list of Christian godly women. If you want I can even make a list of 100….there are countless women dedicated to the service of God. Why should one’s sex determine one’s pastoral abilities?
I know many godly woman exists… You can find them in every tpm church as sisters and mothers… yea they are countless… Sex doesnt determine the pastoral abilities, what determines is the way they have been created. Turn to the history pages and tell me how many were woman desciples among the 12 that Jesus had?? How many Gospels do we have written by woman??
How can you say you are holier than David that you can stand on a high pedestal and advise him to “Kneel and pray to God to give you wisdom.” Are you saying he does not have wisdom? He’s supposed to be your brother in the body of Christ.
Who says I am holier than some David?? Did I ever say tht?? My brother or sister or whatever in Christ… How is that making any sense to you?? You are an athiest I suppose…
Jim, you are contradicting yourself. You and Ace have just now spoken about how rotten other congregations are.
Thats because of the existence of this rotten blog, I was telling you all to point a blog dedicated to criticising other faith by tpm people. Can you point me one?? We indded said other congregations are rotten but never named them.
Well if God can come from nowhere, then I guess the universe can also. I can’t believe you want women to suffer from labour pain without medication. Quite heartless!
the Word says God is Alpha and Omega, Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient. Now dont say Bible was written by man and blah blah blah… btw woman not taking medicines is their personal faith and consecration. Any questions on personal faiths?? ??
When you are not willing to give up your education or job in favour of full-time ministry, why must David, Susan or Rachel V do that just so that they can de-bunk the doctrines of the TPM?
If you have the guts to give up every ambition of yours to work with the TPM, then you can ask other people whether they have the guts to start a church opposing the TPM.
I am happy with my church and its ministry… a hanfull of people cant determine or shake my faith in my Lord of how I’ve been taught about my Lord. So why I must give up my jobs and education to start a new church wen I’m already happy with my church’s doctrines. And debunking??? Even I can debunk many of the “pet” and idiotic doctrines of other churches. But since I’m contended with mine, I dont have to look anywhere else. This only proves that they are still digging in for truth and are not satisfied going around blaming and criticising other churches and their doctrines for the satisfaction of their own belly, spitting out venom and creating confusions and division among the Christians.
So I ask them again, DO YOU HAVE GUTS to start a new church if you know the truth to its completeness??? IT IS LIKE ONLY THEY CAN BRING FORTH A TRUE PENTACOSTAL REVOLUTION IN THE WHOLE WORLD.
Now c’mmon leave your “holier-than-thou” attitude and stop criticising others.
And here you are again, insulting me ….the greatest fool accordning to the “Word of God’”.
Sorry if you took it as an insult… But my intention was not that. Its just the general fact I wanted to bring forth to everyone’s attention, fact about everyone who believe that “Theres no God”. May God forgive me for typing those lines within inverted comas.
Can I say you are like the Pharisees and Saducees and claim I am speaking the Word of God? The Old Testament also approves of slavery. Do you also approve of slavery
You can call me whatever from a “dog” to “monster” or “Pharisees” or whatever.. Frankly.. I wont mind as loong as I have Acts 5:41 with me.
I wish you wouldn’t grossly underestimate the working capabilities of women or maybe you have too little exposure. Women in the workforce work just as long and just as hard as men; they don’t get any special privileges.
All I can comment about the above is “Women who seek to be equal to men, lack ambition and goes on to prove the same, time and again whenever this topic is talked about.”
I have asked you so many questions on God and science. Not one did you answer.
The concept of God is beyond the reach of concept of science. And far as the Word says, blessings are for them who believe in Him blindly, as human or its brain cannot percieve them. Thats the reason why Jesus chose simple men to be His disciples. The more knowledge, more is pride and arrogance and it can be clearly seen in all the athiets.
So Rachel, if you go on with kind of attitude, you can never understand God. Faith is the only way, by how God can be experienced.
I’m not here to insult anyone but expose actual dirty intentions of creating confusions among other weaker souls who are new in this faith and are recenly saved. People posting in here with this intension must understand this. Sorry if anyone has personally taken it as an insult.
Kathryn Kuhlmann…..whom else to list? Amy Carmichael, Florence Nightingale, Joan of Arc, Saint Brigid, Jocye Meyer, Catherine Marshall, Ruth Munce, Francine Rivers, Corrie Ten Boom, Elisabeth Elliot, Joanna southcott, Catherine Booth, Elizabeth Fry, Ellen G White, Evangeline Booth, Hannah Whitall Smith, Li Tim-Oi, Louisa Maria Hubbard, Mother Ann Lee, Phoebe Palmer, Mary Baker Eddy, Jackie Pullinger, Mother Teresa, Mme Guyon, Mother Cabrini, Elizabeth Ann Seton, Fuastina Kowalska, Katherine Drexel, Rose Philipine Duchesne, Teresa of Avila, St Catherine, St Therese’, Antoinette Bourignon, Heloise, Julian of Norwich, Clotilde.
Whos next?? Can we expect Rachel Varghese and Susan George to be included among these names for their work here in the blog??
Do something useful, something fruitful for the people around you like they did. Learn from them.
Jim,
Yes. I have an answer to this. My choice is (b) I am a Fool !!!!.. The Word of my Lord telles me in Acts 5:41 “And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.”
Now ur turn to answer my questions !!! Ready??
As usual you miss the point! Phew! What I was trying to say was I found the test insulting and hence didn’t answer.
I wasn’t saying “because my brain leaks, your brain also leaks.”
I was saying don’t insult me.
tell me how many were woman desciples among the 12 that Jesus had?? How many Gospels do we have written by woman??
Christ lived in a patriarchal society. Even Paul said, “Women should be silent in church.” In a patriarchal set-up, how will women be allowed to minister the gospel? When women aren’t allowed to be pastors in the 21st Century, how would they be allowed 2,000 years ago?
Who says I am holier than some David?? Did I ever say tht?? My brother or sister or whatever in Christ… How is that making any sense to you?? You are an athiest I suppose…
If you are not holier than David, you have no right to command him to “kneel or pray.” David is capable of doing that without your admonision.
Me being an atheist does not mean I do not believe in fair play or the relevance of what Christ said.
Thats because of the existence of this rotten blog, I was telling you all to point a blog dedicated to criticising other faith by tpm people. Can you point me one?? We indded said other congregations are rotten but never named them.
Oh! So we can criticise everyone, we just shouldn’t name them…..twisted logic
This only proves that they are still digging in for truth and are not satisfied going around blaming and criticising other churches and their doctrines for the satisfaction of their own belly, spitting out venom and creating confusions and division among the Christians.
You told David to start his own ministry. I retorted by asking why don’t you do the same before asking others to do so?
You can call me whatever from a “dog” to “monster” or “Pharisees” or whatever.. Frankly.. I wont mind as loong as I have Acts 5:41 with me.
Again you miss the point. I said can I…I didn’t say you are.
The point I was trying to make was don’t insult me.
All I can comment about the above is “Women who seek to be equal to men, lack ambition and goes on to prove the same, time and again whenever this topic is talked about.”
Women don’t seek to be equal to men. They know they are equals.
So Rachel, if you go on with kind of attitude, you can never understand God. Faith is the only way, by how God can be experienced.
Jim, …I told you more than 50 comment ago, that your faith is your personal conviction. You said you could prove it with science. Now, you say you can’t prove God with science.
Dear Bro and Sis, give all things in the hand of God. Let us pray for one another. Let all the denominations be broken. We are all one body in Christ. We have one God, therefore let us be one. The strength of Christianity is in Unity and oneness of mind. We all belong to the same Father who is in heaven. Let us lift the name of Jesus high above all the names and denominations. Amen.
Noble thoughts David…
Oh! So we can criticise everyone, we just shouldn’t name them…..twisted logic
So you mean someone HAS a blog where tpm people have flocked together and are criticising other faiths but not naming them..??? In short what I meant to sum up is to stop this useless business of criticising. Its not bringing any fruits.
You say you are sorry if you insulted me. In the same line you again insult me by saying I “have actual dirty intentions.”
Its not YOU as per you’ve mentioned.. It was a general statement for all those with “so and so intentions I’ve mentioned” its the way how you want to percieve because you know that its the truth. Now dont you say.. I’m insulting you again… Now its like you are hitting me… and that perhaps I wud need an apology from you.
Christ lived in a patriarchal society. Even Paul said, “Women should be silent in church.” In a patriarchal set-up, how will women be allowed to minister the gospel? When women aren’t allowed to be pastors in the 21st Century, how would they be allowed 2,000 years ago?
Thats what even I am trying to explain you.. Put in the other way “When women aren’t allowed to be pastors 2,000 years ago how would they be allowed in the 21st Century??” Christ lived ofcourse in the patriarchal society but his teachings should be taken as… as new as the breaking of the new day. So words are words… when its said woman should be silent, they should be silent in the church.
Jim,
You are illogical to the extreme and there’s no way I can hold a sensible discussion with you. So lets just drop the topic.
Regards,
Rachel
I think I might close all comments. I don’t see why I should be allowing such mud-slinging matches.
David,
I agreee with you and stand by the moderator’s comments on the same…. “Noble thoughts David…”
Thats indeed a noble thought.
Jim
Rachel, our God is not dead God. He is living and His eyes are upon us continually. Only He alone can convince us, comfort us, lead us, uphold us, no one or no one’s comments can guide you, convince you etc.. Different people have different opinions. But Word of God is lamp unto our feet and light unto our path. Are you disaapointed or discouraged in your life. Jesus is ready to speak with you. Are you ready? Make a small prayer from the depth of your heart though you might be in whatever state. I assure you that peace of God that passeth all understanding shall flow through you. Amen in Jesus.
You are illogical to the extreme and there’s no way I can hold a sensible discussion with you. So lets just drop the topic.
The whole of this blog and all these discussions were already illogical beyond extreme right from the beginning… I just dropped in from nowhere to add some logic but I’ve already failed. But dont you please drop the topic… but rather do good and please be kind enough to pull down the whole page of this blog…. Its spreading strife and divisions among Christians esp. weaker souls who just got to know Christ. You being an athiest is ok but please dont spread YOUR gospel among the weaker souls by joining hands with other church-critics. Its an appeal, a humble one.
Thanks for the kind words David, the gesture is much appreciated
I think I might close all comments. I don’t see why I should be allowing such mud-slinging matches.
I think “mud-slinging” was the main objective of this blog against some tpm. When oppositions landed, esp from Mr. ace then you are thinking of closing the comments.
This is not fair Sis Rachel. We need more positive and soothing posts as of David. Its truly so encouraging.
Dear Ladies and Gentlemen,
END TIME WORK OF GOD
The following is an article on the above subject. Hope it will be a blessing:
We know very well that prophet Elijah had a mantle. While he was taken up, his mantle fell on Elisha. Who gave that mantle to Elijah? Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
Similarly, before the second coming, our Lord Jesus desires to place the mantle of Elijah upon millions of anointed Believers. Our Lord plans to use the ordinary anointed Believers according to the following verse:
John 14: 12: “I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.”
If we remember, this promise is not yet fulfilled. Jesus is going to fulfill this in the End Time.
Many Christian believers say, “I do not have Bible wisdom”, “I am unable to preach”, “I do not have revelation to preach”, “I do not have the spiritual gifts to heal or prophecy”.
However, what does the Lord say? “I will give you these. Just have faith. Peter was an illiterate. Paul was taught Judaism not the truth. However, I took these insignificant weaklings and used them. I will likewise use you if you admit your weakness and trust me and my bounty”.
Will we heed to this call of the Lord? The Israelites despised Canaan because they did not have confidence in God. Will we also despise the Lord and His mantle?
CONTENTEDNESS:
We may rest content with our material and financial blessings. However, we must never rest content with spiritual blessings. Let us encourage ourselves & others with this message, to ask & wait for the gifts of the Holy Spirit and to be equipped to preach and teach the word of God. Jesus longs to give the mantle of Elijah to every insignificant Christian. A new era has begun!!
God bless you.
Sis Rachel V,
A great insight indeed, but a few corrections here please.
Our Lord plans to use the ordinary anointed Believers
How can anointed believers be ordinary?? infact they are extra-ordinary. Dont you think so?
Jesus longs to give the mantle of Elijah to every insignificant Christian
Ofcourse yes. Christ came all the way leaving all His glory from above for sinners and insignificants and not for those who are perfect. But when Jesus gives the mantle of Elijah to these insignificant Christians, they are no more insignificant but ANOINTED and very much SIGNIFICANT.
Every insignificant wordly-namely christians cannot recieve the mantle of Elijah unless they prepare themselves and become anointed and SIGNIFICANT Christians.
Given the rest of the content; its BEAUtiful.
Jim,
Good appreciation, but some corrections to some of Jim’s false perceptions:
Insignificant refers to the perspective of those anointed Christians. Though they are anointed they consider themselves insignificant.
However in God’s eyes they are significant because He is willing to give the spirit of prophecy to everyone who desires and asks as per 1 Cor 14:1.
Anointed Christians have to realise that they have entry into the most holy place where the priests and levites, let alone the Israelites, were forbidden.
Only Aaron was allowed. But when Jesus died the veil (due to Adam’s sin) that separated man from God, WAS TORN.
Jesus, by His Blood, opened the way to His Father, and longs to take every anointed believer to His Father.
Jesus has given His Spirit, to enable the anointed to speak tongues which are intimacies with the Father.
In the most holy place, the Father longs to speak to the anointed people and share secrets.
Jesus has done a great work. However, the anointed christians have not understood the passage that Jesus created to the Father.
The anointed are reluctant to know that they are priests. They think they are significant because they were taught so. They depend on middle agents just like the catholics depend on unmarried fathers and saints and nuns.
The anointed should know that the Holy Spirit could speak to them as per 1 John 2:27 ,
“As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.”
TPM has to teach this and stop the lie of Melchizedek-calling-for-workers, 144,000, celibate apostleship which were founded by Pas. Alwin.
Very true, all the TPM doctrines that were fabricated to create an identity for TPM were created by Pastor Alwin and promoted fervently by Pastor AC Thomas and successors.
Those doctrines are the ones stated earlier like Melchizedek-calling-for-TPM workers, 144,000, celibate apostleship, medicine- consumption-is-sinful, women-defile etc.
We must be very careful of such TPM’s doctrines because these serve to enslave the believers to the workers and hinders the believers from focussing on Christ and serving Him.
My goodness – what a lot of posts here on TPM/CPM … Let me put down a few positives-negatives from TPM …. I have been a member there for around 7 years:
Positives—
a. willingness to sacrifice materials things for God
Negatives—-
a. heavy emphasis on attending all the meeetings of the week ( around 4-6 meetings a week) – if people dont attend they make them feel guilty and condemned
b. no emphasis or teaching on evangelism — which results in selfish believers — each believers wants to become perfect … with no concern on perishing souls
c. having medicine is a strict no there — I ask — is it better to kill or to save (Jesus asked the same question) — is it better to save a human being or soul OR let him die ….
d. they look at other ministries in a very low manner — calling them as having only the gospel of salvation and deliverance whereas TPM has gospel of glory …… I find that TPM has gospel of selfishness and puffed up knowledge…
e. Almost NO emphasis on teachings on Christ — exceptions are late Chief Paster TU Thomas , Pastor Don and may be a few others — rest all preach craftily from the Old testament and from Pauls teaching week after week ( 4-6 times a week )
f. they look down upon the relationship between a husband and wife —- as something sinful —- which could be one reason why so many CPM families are a mess — a majority of whom i have seen dont have a unity in their family — they are hard and adamant and subborn
I have now come out of that legalistic church — But i have received blessings through the Church too – by hearing sermons there — and my prayers for it to come out of legalism ( attaining perfection by framing up a set of rules and trying to adhere to them ).
Take care — all of you —- God Be with you all ….
Hi,
Rachel varghese and susan george,
I am eagrly looking for a church in this world were i can go with a guarantee to go to heaven. I hope you both might be attending in a perfect church. can you please……. tell where and what is that perfect church?
John
Dear Brother Moorthy,
You stated on epositive and many negatives. There are still other very large negatives like terrible scriptural misinterpretations. It is God who took you out of that sel-glorifying group just like Israelites who were taken to Egypt were finally delivered from it.
You stated one positive as follows:
Positives—
a. willingness to sacrifice materials things for God.
My reply: TRUE SACRIFICE. WHAT IS IT?
What is sacrifice? God has given us many resources like time, energy, wisdom, money etc. Sacrifice means spending our resources for the work in God’s kingdom.
God wants us to sacrifice. How can we sacrifice? By spending our time and energy to do the following:
1. Read and meditate the scriptures with a concordance Bible and a Chain reference. Psalms 1:2.
2. Ask and wait on the Holy Spirit for a word of encouragement.
3. Share that word of encouragement with those in suffering and pain.
4. Gather the family members and neighbors and lead them in worship to God as per Acts 2:46.
5. Teach them the scriptures as per Colossians 3:16.
6. Give tithes to gospel workers and pastors in villages as per 1 Cor 9:13,14.
The above is the sacrifice, which God wants. However, most Pentecostals have chosen the following sacrifice:
1. Removing jewels.
2. Wearing white saree and white shirts.
3. Shaving the moustache.
4. Depending on pastors like kids.
5. Pleasing the pastors.
Dear Brethren, God sees the heart and not your external display. Hence, instead of an external “show” of piety and righteousness like the Hindu sanyasis and Buddhist monks, show your godliness before God by “working” for the kingdom of God as per item 1 to item 6.
Be a Pentecostal by the “internal” experience shown in preaching His gospel with miracles as per John 14:12 and not by the external display of white dress. Avoid showing off your religion, piety and righteousness to others. God hates that.
Build the temple inside you rather than the buildings of denominations. Most Pentecostal pastors train the believers to give money while the believers remain as kids. Pastors do this by “feeding” them instead of “equipping” them.
Seek to give the true sacrifices, which God desires and thus lay treasures in heaven.
Dear John,
1. You are the temple of the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 3:16
2. God does not live in temples built by hands Acts 17:24
3. Guarantee to go to heaven is not given by any church but by the Blood of Christ. Maybe TPM has wrongly taught you that they guarantee heaven for you.
There is just one church or one body of Christ in this world. God gave 5 types of ministries in this one body. Be trained by all the 5 types of ministries and not just by one type of ministry called the pastoral ministry.
Look for true apostles as per 1 Cor 12:12 and not the vain TPM self-glorifying “talkers” and scriptural distorters.
Hi Susan
they spend time , energy , money and all — thinking they are spending it in Gods Presence and for him — whereas they are wasting it all in church and in observance of rules laid down by workers in the church …. without a second thought on the kingdom of God —- its all ‘pressing towards the mark of perfection’ – for them – and like blind horse — they dont realise a thing in the world —- and keep going in the direction in which their rider – the workers lead them
— i am asking out of curiosity — were you a part of TPM — and assuming you are out of it now — can you share something about yourself ….
regards
Moorthy
Jim,
I told you I reserve the right to delete comments
Dear Brother Moorthy,
It is good that you are out of TPM. May God deliver the TPM believers similarly and bring them out of the false doctrines which was fabricated to create a TPM identity by Pas. Alwin (who was excommunicated from TPM) and promoted by the present lot zealously.
Jim is a person who seems to know very poor information about TPM. I think maybe he has someone in his family or friends in the TPM ministry. That could explain his zeal for TPM’s false doctrines.
To the statement, “In the most holy place, the Father longs to speak to the anointed people and share secrets” see Jim’s reply .
Jim says, “Secrets?? Huh??” Thus His knowledge of the scriptures are also in question.
Amos 3: 7 says. ” Surely the Sovereign LORD does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets.”
Jim appears to know only the doctrinal misinterpretations of TPM workers which he hears on Sundays. If Jim longs to know about TPM’s confusions he could read “Deeper Truth” of TPM and get to know their lies firsthand.
The problem with TPM is that they make a doctrine out of celibacy which ought to be personal choices.
Let God deliver the church from TPM’s worker-glorification and doctrines fabricated for that purpose.
I am really happy that the Moderator has asserted herself saying that she reserves the right to delete comments. May God bless the Moderator.
susan,
So you mean that no need to be a member of this wordly church and we can go to heaven. If not so….
I have no idea that which church is best one, defanitely you might be attending in a perfect church, please can you tell me what is that church. Instead, just twisting the words for escaping from my question.
John
Jim,
Don’t tell me I should be fair. You call me the devil, doubt my intentions, accuse of me of all ridiculous things….when you are so disrespectful, am I a fool to approve your comments, so that you can further insult me?
When you have learnt politeness and etiquette your comments will be welcome.
As long as you cannot respect the views of others, I will continue deleting your comments.
Dear Brethren who visit this site,
Jesus spoke words of love and compassion. He healed the sick, cast the demons and showed His love to the masses.
He was surrounded by prostitutes and sinners and publicans. He loved them all and forgive them all.
Jesus was called “friend of sinners”. Dear Brethren, I request you not to have the dirty attitude of Jim which totally does not reflect Jesus or His teachings regarding evangelism. Jim resembles more like another present day Pharisee. Everyone true christian should boycott Jim’s attitudes and statements. Jim’s statements only reinforce the truth that the TPM he supports is a group of more false doctrines.
Jim alias Anil, is totally sold to the lies of TPM. He is the first person who should repent. Jim is just one sample reflection of the attitude towards truth that is inculcated in TPM.
Secondly, John is asking me the address for a building church. John is asking the address for a denomination.
Church is not a collection of TPM’s fabricated doctrines to glorify workers.
Church is not a group of whitewashed self glorifiers full of vain pride. Church is not a group which shows sacrificial mentality externally in a white dressed religion.
There is one church in this world. Denominations are not churches. They are groups in the one church of God. The One Church contains 5 types of ministries. The church is not bound by denominations. The Holy Spirit is the God-Pastor. Jesus is the God-groom.
Church is one where all denominations are united. Unity is what Jesus prayed for in John chapter 17. Denominations like TPM which destroy this unity cannot be called a church at all.
Church is a place where songs of all christians irrespective of denominations are sung.
Church is a place where preachers irrespective of denominations are allowed to preach.
Church is not to preach the false doctrines (like melchizedek calling for workers, celibate apostleship, self glorifying 144,000) of Pas. Alwin who was excommunicated by TPM.
Church is not a place where the false doctrines are intertwined in the songs like as seen in TPM.
On behalf of everyone in this blog, I would thank and appreciate the Moderator for her moderation. May God bless her.
Susan,
I am still asking you that, so you are not a member of any churches in this world. If i am not right please calrify me. If you don’t want tell that, which church you belong, tell openly that you are not interested to talk about your holy church. Please stop twisting your words.
Its a simple question asking you again, are you a member of any wordly churches in this world? Please show me that holy church who unites all churches together.
John
Dear Rachel and others,
I can fully understand your feelings. One thing I have learnt about these issues discussed is, “KEEP YOUR FOCUS ON JESUS.HE IS THE SAME YESTERDAY, TODAY AND FOREVER”.
Men(Pastors) may come and men may go. But at the end when we stand before Jesus on the judgement day we are accountable for our lives. Man is prone to make,break rules.
If we have a correct relationship with God, our hunger for the word of God will increase.
We will look forward for that time again in our day where we can talk to him. Once this becomes our habit no person/teaching/pastor/medicine/jewels/earthly power can separate us from that love we have for God
That love will overflow through us to all those who are searching for true happiness and joy.
He will lead us with his wisdom and knowledge. But the battle will always be there. We are all humans and we are prone to mistakes. But only God’s mercy will take us through.
We will have the heart to forgive others and accept everybody as Jesus did. Let us all aim for this.
Love and Prayers.
Jim alias Anil, is totally sold to the lies of TPM.
What does this mean??
Let God deliver the church from TPM’s worker-glorification and doctrines fabricated for that purpose.
So why are you worried if God is in charge?? Please pray for them to the Lord that He may save tpm people rather than wasting your time here…
Dear Pauline,
Let us not only pray for the evil spirit of division working in TPM but also warn others. Let us speak the truth so that the false doctrines in TPM are exposed and destroyed.
Anil is another name for Jim who tries to make people who speak the truth to abort their efforts.
God will work but He works through His children what they can possibly do by the capacity that He has given.
Just like the evil of casteism the evil of denominationalism promoted by TPM must be destroyed.
Please read the following article circulated by email which is a very good one:
BUILDING THE BRIDE CHURCH ? WHAT DOES IT MEAN?
Ephesians 4:11 to 13 says, “It was he (God) who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.”
WHAT DOES THE ABOVE VERSE MEAN?
1. Firstly, we can clearly see that God gave 5 types of ministries (apostles, prophets, evangelists etc) to the Universal Bride Church all over the world. However, unfortunately the title of “church” is wrongly applied to groups headed by pastors. Thus, the groups like TPM are just pastor- congregations. These pastor-groups do not have the other four types of ministers. They also speak ill of the other 4 types of ministers and create fear of them among the believers, thus preventing them from being ministered by the other four types of ministers. However, God commands that the word “Church” includes all five types of ministries.
2. Secondly, the verse clearly teaches that the “universal bride church” as a whole can reach “maturity” only if all the individuals present inside the “universal bride church” reach unity in the faith and knowledge of the Son of God. This means that all Christians in the body of Christ must have the similar level of faith and knowledge about Jesus. Only then unity could possibly be achieved among them. Every one of us must look like a “little Jesus” so that the world sees millions of Jesus walking around.
Like for example, a kindergarten student is not in unity with a junior college student. Only when the kindergarten student reaches the level of junior college both possess unity in knowledge. Thus we understand that the other four types of ministers were certainly given by God to enhance the unity among parts that leads to the maturity of the whole bride church.
3. Thirdly, the verse teaches that for such a growth in knowledge of individuals, God gave the other four ministries as well. Hence, can you now understand the reason why millions of Christian individuals lack the growth in spiritual knowledge which God desires? Very simple. The reason is because the pastors prevent the believers from being ministered and trained by the other four types of ministers.
4. Fourthly, one tenth of your salary is to be given to the “universal bride church” which includes the five types of ministers. Most pastors wrongly teach that tithes are meant only for pastors. Thus they are successfully destroying the unity of the “universal bride church” and the maturity that unity brings. Like for example, if the chemistry teacher takes all of the school fees from the student and does not allow paying the physics and mathematics teacher, will the student grow in knowledge? No.
However, remember that these pastors will be judged by God very soon because the Bible says that judgement starts from the house of God. Unless these pastors stop deceiving the individuals they are going to pay for what they do to the bride church. Pastors are busy building their groups and denominations and not the “universal bride church”. Eventually the individuals remain “dependent” on these pastors which mean that the millions of lost are not reached with the gospel of Christ. Thus they appear to be responsible in sending millions to eternal fire. Dear brethren, if you cannot evangelize, at least motivate and train your fellow believer who has the hidden ability to evangelize. Remember, Jesus is at the door. Let’s hurry up to build and encourage individuals.
REMEMBER, JESUS DIED TO TEAR THE VEIL AND TO MAKE YOU A PRIEST AND ALSO TO MAKE YOU ENTER INTO THE MOST HOLY PLACE WITH CONFIDENCE, WHERE, EVEN AARON THE HIGH PRIEST COULD ENTER ONLY ONCE A YEAR AND THAT TOO WITH A GREAT FEAR OF DEATH!! PASTORS HIDE THIS GREAT TRUTH OF “PRIESTHOOD OF A BELIEVER” FROM YOU.
Let us not be quiet
Sister
Don’t loose your words againt God & God Saints, let lord open your eye of understand, to get closer to god.
please for your shortcomings
A beliver in christ
– Joel
A big hello Rachel,
Please accept my compliments (from a lay co-blogwriter) towards your flair for conveying your thoughts exceptionally well. Your blog does truly stem from a high quality pen. It was by chance that I drove past your blog when this interesting exchange caught my attention and prompted me to pull over and cast in my two cents. I’ll try giving it a simple intellectual take than load it with a serious religious tone.
On reading the chain, I thought I’d provide an opener which is a bit off context from your original post but might serve some wonderful people’s interests whose obsessed arguments were not reflective of grown-ups who can see the world more inclusively.
For the record, I was born into a Protestant household, chose to be estranged from religion and was given to a spirit of super-inquisitive quizzing of anything that smelt or spelt God. This was further accentuated by my having read the Bible five times over among other literature. But, I had my tryst with religion and God in my early twenties and following relentless investigation of divine principles and values, chose to fellowship with the TPM as it was more fulsome to me. Now, that was a personal choice for many good reasons.
Firstly, I would like to take exception to people reading other people’s (whether they be servants of God or co-believers) lives, to draw inferences about Jesus’ intended interpretation of Christian values. Well, we are the human-kind and have a calling to naturally err on the wrong side. Society for instance, has an entire spectrum of people modeling the behavioral extremes of goodness and badness. But, gray cells also teach us to train our sights on the positives, learn from them and leave the rest to themselves. That said, it is a pessimist’s stand (and also not supported mathematically) to make blanket conclusions about a large mass by tasting a pinch from some individual’s life. Our lives are too complex and unique to be judged by sampling another’s.
The Bible also does talk of an erring Judas, a servant of God by calling, but one does identify oneself with “Jesus and the better eleven’ who role modeled a better life, rather with Judas, doesn’t he ? Similarly, a bad father need not necessary mean a screwed up family. A cruel Indian politician does not make a cruel Indian populace.
In short, I’ve learnt to see beyond just people into the heart of principles to rather take sides with. To me, if there are sound principles that could wean one sustainably away from alcoholism, drugs, foul language, anger, lies, pilfering, swearing or any other understandably nasty attributes, this is the best. I do understand that there are transformational therapeutic alternatives to Pentecostal Christian principles, but, I know not any that matches up to it’s intensity and breadth in the end making one a man of better character. Do let me know if there is another, so that I give up on Christ and this Church for good, but I’m darn sure it will be a futile search.
Now, speaking of some of your comments on TPM’s doctrines, here’s how I view it. Hope they are appreciated in the spirit of blogging.
White attire :
The Church does not ever narrow-mindedly condemn a person wearing non-white apparel as not “heavenly bound”. For Jesus’ sake, apologies on behalf of the Church, for preachers or co-believers who led you towards that interpretation. If they all did, I would not have been accepted during my fledgling days too. But, that is never the case. Jesus never professed that nor does the Bible. So, I give you that argument. But, the Church urges followers to keep their attire modest, tidy and perhaps different (that is white or close to anything that is bright) to make it a celebration of the beauty and holiness of ones’ inward life and an after-life. I’m glad the Church doesn’t ask one to be clothed in rags to prove to be different. And I don’t find anything repulsive with the color white either. From a world-view, it is associated with elitism and esteem as with politicians, with corporate life (as I do see every day as a business owner), trendy in the fashion circuit and a choice with the hip and young too. Well, I’m sorry about you having the misfortune of hearing “no white = no heaven” nonsense. But, the Church sure does discourage ostentatious, immodest and flashy apparel that distracts worshippers from their prime reason to be in Church but never condemns to hell. Dressing for the occasion is pure commonsense and is what even our parents would instruct us of, let alone Church leaders.
Medicines :
I do share your anguish on the departure of the kid. But, your point got me thinking. I do understand that treatment could have possibly saved the child from death, but you must know that there are thousands of children who have gone through that path and have lived to see this day or slip away into eternal bliss in their ripe old age. Playing with probability, there is perhaps maybe only a 1 in 10000 chance of an adversity of the magnitude of death happening. I think the field of medicine doesn’t do any better either to improve the chances of living, does it ? I have personally seen and heard enough of it to conclude that medicine screws up much-much worse than faith. I’ve seen people succumbing more to ill-administered medicine than to misdirected faith to make me feel more comfortable with the latter. Moreover, interestingly, men resort to God when medicine finally gives up on them. Well, yea, the Bible explains .. and so does the Church, that “perfect faith” even if it be death is essential to partake of the best in heaven. So, it depends on a person’s choice and liking. However, for argument’s sake, just because admission to Harvard Business School is tough doesn’t make the selection process inappropriate. Proverbially speaking, to get the best would mean that one’s got to lay down his best. That’s plain old logic which we find hard to accept when we apply it as a rule to hold up our spiritual standard against.
But, whether one would savor the hardship and take that path is a personal choice, but, the Bible is written by God’s inspiration once and it will stand as the yardstick for the aspiring from the Church’s standpoint. I think, you and I can’t change that.
I could write about women’s subordination & removal of ornaments in a later reply perhaps if it serves a good purpose. However, let’s promote one focused constructive discussion at a time to iron out points, if you wish to.
To good times Rachel .. and happy writing !!
Joel is a believer of TPM, that is for sure, more than he is a believer of Christ.
Ranjith has not cast two cents but too much cents!!
1. God likes modesty in your spirit and not the external one. God looks to the heart where TPM has the most false doctrines to “perch up” their false image!!
2. Medicine screws up. If so why TPM workers die young?
These Ranjiths and Jim’s and Robinsons, confuse between faith in God and our responsibilities.
These guys do not know the medicines taken by the workers in their privacy and their faith in faith home made grandma potions.
Ranjith should understand that God heals but treatment comes from doctors as Jesus said that a sick man needs a physician.
God heals without the treatment of a doctor, ie, in a supernatural way, only when God plans to use the sickness leads a person to salvation or to a growth in faith. The rest of the times one needs to go physicians.
Ranjith has forgotten that the thousands of doctors and nurses (people who screw up) in TPM are accepted in TPM and given communion. They screw up from monday to Friday and on sunday morning they are given communion in TPM.
Ranjith has to think properly before he casts too much cents and not pretend that he is casting only two cents. Hope he reads the articles that exposes TPM’s false doctrines before he starts penning.
Let the evil of TPM’s denominationalism and identity creation be destroyed. Let unity blossom which Jesus longed for in John chapter 17.
Ranjith has forgotten that the thousands of doctors and nurses (people who screw up) in TPM are accepted in TPM and given communion. They screw up from monday to Friday and on sunday morning they are given communion in TPM.
wht do you mean by ‘screwing-up’ ???
Medicine screws up. If so why TPM workers die young?
What is your probs if they die young.. why dont you make a police FIR, set up a CBI committe to enquire into the same, and approach the media??
God likes modesty in your spirit and not the external one.
Its because of this, why tpm workers wear white.. as the simplicity that is within, reflects out too…
Doctors do not heal. Instead, they just provide treatment. TPM does not understand this basic difference.
Because of TPM’s ignorance of this basic truth, they have ended up confusing the whole issue.
Remember, the truth is that going to a doctor for treatment is not lack of faith. Instead going to a doctor for healing amounts to lack of faith.
So instead of preventing people from going to doctors altogether, teach people to go to doctors for treatment and not for healing.
For healing, a person has to set his / her relationship right before God.
The problem with TPM is that they took their “identity” creating fabricated doctrines from Pas. Alwin and not from Raman Kutty to whom God gave the vision of TPM.
Such false doctrines fabricated to create an identity for TPM are the following:
1. False interpretation of divine Healing.
2. Melchizedek-calling-for-workers.
3. Celibate apostleship.
4. TPM celibate workers belong to 144,000.
5. Women and marriage defiles a person.
6. Misinterpretation of Matthew 19:29.
7. Calling TPM buildings as “faith homes”.
8. Sunday school teachers and workers compulsorily prevented from wearing jewels whereas lately as a compromise other believers are allowed to wear jewels.
Clarifications:
1. Jim said, “Admit that you dont have that guts to do it…??”
Reply: Jim appears to be a nerveless creature to admit the false doctrines let alone warn TPM workers.Hell fire is waiting for fabricators of false doctrines and perpertrators of those doctrines.
2. Jim has forgotten that Bible tells God’s will and you do not have to be a PA to understand that. Hope Jim kneels down and admits TPM’s gross errors rather than rave and rant.
3. Screw up was the word used by Ranjith. I was using his terms of describing the medicinal profession. Jim. Read passages properly before screaming.
4. Ranjith said medicines screw up. So that is my counter question. Jim is very poor in understanding. Answer questions rather than yell. Yes Jim you can order Police FIR for those who kicked Pas. Philip leading to his death 3 months later.
5. Modesty has to be revealed not by twisting doctrines and creating a false identity for TPM. Then showing it off in white is a false display of religion!!
Ranjith said medicines screw up. So that is my counter question. Jim is very poor in understanding. Answer questions rather than yell. Yes Jim you can order Police FIR for those who kicked Pas. Philip leading to his death 3 months later.
So you are playing counter strike here…well nice and Yell?? me?? can u really hear my voice in my posts (i mean just words), then my thanks to you..
ur insulting me to be powerful… like your southern rotten hero Rajanikant. I dont see the need of filing the FIR, if you want why dont you file an FIR??? so GO and file the FIR rather than showing off your guts by typing away non-sense... Thank you for that remark on me. May God bless you a hundred times more for the same !!!Jim appears to be a nerveless creature to admit the false doctrines let alone warn TPM workers. Hope Jim kneels down and admits TPM’s gross errors rather than rave and rant.
OK.. Even I do tht… NOW WHAT?? HOW HAVE YOU BENEFITTED FROM MY ACTION??
1)IS IT LIKE THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF YOUR LIFE IS EXPOSING TPM’S DOCTRNAL MISINTERPRETATIONS AND NOTHING ELSE??
2)DO YOU KNW THAT PEOPLE READ YOUR POSTS AND SMILE MAKING FUN OF YOU UNLESS THEY ARE PERSONALITIES LIKE YOU??3)DO YOU KNOW AND REALLISE THAT YOUR POSTS ARE CONTRIBUTING A BIG ZERO VALUE TO THE SOCIETY??
It was you who raised the issue of FIR not me. So you must be really interested to file an FIR against the Phillip killers. So please go ahead if you are really concerned about FIT’s.
I am not typing nonsense. Your fingers do!! First you threaten with hell fire and then follow up with hundred times blessing!!
Remember, hell fire is waiting for those who promote false doctrines and those who defend them and not for those who proclaim the truth.
Very soon the disunity of the body of Christ promoted by TPM will be pulled down by God by His power and by His proclamation through His children.
Hello Jim,
1. Jim’s whole purpose in life is to defend the TPM’s false doctrines?
2. Yes people praised you when you called doctors as “witches”.
They also smiled when they saw through your earlier plot to divert the attention from the purpose of the blog site.
3. Do you think your posts are contributing?
The posts of those speak the truth contribute better than those who promote and defend false doctrines.
4. It looks like you are on a serious diet of walnuts. Good experience!!
Hi
Ranjith just saw ur comment
Will revert back to you
Dear Brethren,
The following fact was very interesting to hear:
“It is a well known fact that the TPM Founder Pas. Raman Kutty had made a committment only to live in rental houses.
Because they considered themseelves as “strangers and pilgrims” in this world.
Due to this committment the house churches of TPM were called as “faith homes”.
However, TPM has violated that committment of living in rental houses and have thus bought lands worth several crores of rupees and also built buildings using the tithes money of people.
The strange thing is that even after violating the Founder’s committment the present day workers still call their buildings as “faith homes”!!
The TPM believers who are ignorant of the above fact are deceived as they do not know the background of the name “faith home”.
Remember, TPM’s talk of faith has lost its meaning with reference to the Founder Pas. Raman Kutty’s committment!!
May God Save you
Hey Rachel,
Kudos to you for writing this blog…hats off to you..Although I did not understand throughly your blog, I feel the same way you do…Grew up in such a religion bound household, I believe THAT Kerala Pentecostal people are misinterpreting the BIBLE AND Who God really is…He is the ultimate expression of love, and as I read the comments on your blog, it sadens me how people are so quick to judge you…….I think it is sad that the indian culture is so focused in out ward appearance. The bible says God looks at the heart and man looks at the outer appearance…But I believe we have came to an era that God will raise women up and the stima about female prechers will come to an end…I believe that, and I know that God will raise me up to be a preacher and I am a SOUTH INDIAN KERALA Women..I hope that you still believe in God and he is a loving God that put you on this earth for a purpose, and the passion he has instilled in you, may that be used for his kingdom purposes….Anyways, God bless you and I am not going to say I will pray for you like all the hypocrites have said in other comments but I will remember you and Good for you that you took a stand…People might see you as the devil but there are always going to be “nah sayers” know wut I mean?
Take care,
~~Betz~~
Hi Ranjith,
Was pleasantly surprised to read your comments. I am wannabe-writer so your words are very encouraging.
We seem to share many similarities – background, orientation, etc.
But, I had my tryst with religion and God in my early twenties and following relentless investigation of divine principles and values, chose to fellowship with the TPM as it was more fulsome to me. Now, that was a personal choice for many good reasons.
Firstly, I would like to take exception to people reading other people’s (whether they be servants of God or co-believers) lives, to draw inferences about Jesus’ intended interpretation of Christian values. Well, we are the human-kind and have a calling to naturally err on the wrong side. Society for instance, has an entire spectrum of people modeling the behavioral extremes of goodness and badness. But, gray cells also teach us to train our sights on the positives, learn from them and leave the rest to themselves. That said, it is a pessimist’s stand (and also not supported mathematically) to make blanket conclusions about a large mass by tasting a pinch from some individual’s life. Our lives are too complex and unique to be judged by sampling another’s.
Am I glad you wrote this. I also feel your religious convictions are your personal choices – not some thing with which you use as the standard to judge others. When people are religious I am happy if whatever they believe in comforts them. I have been trying to tell Jim from the beginning that me being an atheist or Jim being TPM or Susan being anti-TPM is a matter of personal choice or conviction…and we should give others the space to follow their convictions.
The Bible also does talk of an erring Judas, a servant of God by calling, but one does identify oneself with “Jesus and the better eleven’ who role modeled a better life, rather with Judas, doesn’t he ? Similarly, a bad father need not necessary mean a screwed up family. A cruel Indian politician does not make a cruel Indian populace.
In short, I’ve learnt to see beyond just people into the heart of principles to rather take sides with. To me, if there are sound principles that could wean one sustainably away from alcoholism, drugs, foul language, anger, lies, pilfering, swearing or any other understandably nasty attributes, this is the best. I do understand that there are transformational therapeutic alternatives to Pentecostal Christian principles, but, I know not any that matches up to it’s intensity and breadth in the end making one a man of better character. Do let me know if there is another, so that I give up on Christ and this Church for good, but I’m darn sure it will be a futile search.
Your argument is that you need religion if people need to be moral – you associate morality with not drinking, smoking, etc. When you say foul language, anger are characteristics of those immoral – then Christians seem to be the most immoral of all….because as far as I know they seem to be engaged in the most amount of name calling.
And again I feel it is better to be a non-Christian and drink, smoke or do drugs – than be a Christian like George W Bush or Tony Blair.
Most Christians will be talking about peace and forgiveness but will support Israel’s atrocities against Palestine and have the smug belief that all “Hindus and Muslims are evil.”
For instance, many of my friend do not believe in God, but they work so hard for social upliftment and have done more for the under-privileged than some of my Christian friends.
White attire :
The Church does not ever narrow-mindedly condemn a person wearing non-white apparel as not “heavenly bound”. For Jesus’ sake, apologies on behalf of the Church, for preachers or co-believers who led you towards that interpretation. If they all did, I would not have been accepted during my fledgling days too. But, that is never the case. Jesus never professed that nor does the Bible. So, I give you that argument. But, the Church urges followers to keep their attire modest, tidy and perhaps different (that is white or close to anything that is bright) to make it a celebration of the beauty and holiness of ones’ inward life and an after-life. I’m glad the Church doesn’t ask one to be clothed in rags to prove to be different. And I don’t find anything repulsive with the color white either. From a world-view, it is associated with elitism and esteem as with politicians, with corporate life (as I do see every day as a business owner), trendy in the fashion circuit and a choice with the hip and young too. Well, I’m sorry about you having the misfortune of hearing “no white = no heaven” nonsense. But, the Church sure does discourage ostentatious, immodest and flashy apparel that distracts worshippers from their prime reason to be in Church but never condemns to hell. Dressing for the occasion is pure commonsense and is what even our parents would instruct us of, let alone Church leaders.
I think there is a higher probability that you are right (due to your close association with the church) and I am wrong. If so I am happy that there is no discrimination based on one’s dress code.
Medicines :
I do share your anguish on the departure of the kid. But, your point got me thinking. I do understand that treatment could have possibly saved the child from death, but you must know that there are thousands of children who have gone through that path and have lived to see this day or slip away into eternal bliss in their ripe old age. Playing with probability, there is perhaps maybe only a 1 in 10000 chance of an adversity of the magnitude of death happening. I think the field of medicine doesn’t do any better either to improve the chances of living, does it ? I have personally seen and heard enough of it to conclude that medicine screws up much-much worse than faith. I’ve seen people succumbing more to ill-administered medicine than to misdirected faith to make me feel more comfortable with the latter. Moreover, interestingly, men resort to God when medicine finally gives up on them. Well, yea, the Bible explains .. and so does the Church, that “perfect faith” even if it be death is essential to partake of the best in heaven. So, it depends on a person’s choice and liking. However, for argument’s sake, just because admission to Harvard Business School is tough doesn’t make the selection process inappropriate. Proverbially speaking, to get the best would mean that one’s got to lay down his best. That’s plain old logic which we find hard to accept when we apply it as a rule to hold up our spiritual standard against.
But, whether one would savor the hardship and take that path is a personal choice, but, the Bible is written by God’s inspiration once and it will stand as the yardstick for the aspiring from the Church’s standpoint. I think, you and I can’t change that.
Here again, I find nothing to dispute in your view. You hold that taking medicines/ faith healing is a personal choice. I also believe it’s the same. What I can’t abide is people preaching it from the pulpit and making it mandatory for all church members.
Taking medicines or not taking medicines is a personal choice. But imposing your choice on a minor (your child/ward) is not right. Because the child/minor might want to live.
I could write about women’s subordination & removal of ornaments in a later reply perhaps if it serves a good purpose. However, let’s promote one focused constructive discussion at a time to iron out points, if you wish to.
To good times Rachel .. and happy writing !!
Thanks Ranjith, loved hearing from you.
Hi Betsy,
Well, I am also a great admirer of Christ. I do love the way he stood up against the pharisees and many of the archaic practises of those times. I also found he never discriminated between the Jew and the Gentile or the women and the men…he was always kind, loving and wise.
I also wish that there were more women preachers in church because I don’t think God would discriminate based on one’s gender. I hope you are able to preach the gospel in your home town and help usher in a more Christ-oriented Christianity. You might want to read this article.
Regards,
Rachel
Dear Rachel,
Glad to read that you like Christ and you admire Him greatly.
I undertand that though you like Christ, the way so called christians behave is what has made you denounce your religion and made you an atheist.
Just because of a handful of bad examples before you doesn’t mean that all are bad. Even today I am
touched by the generosity and character of a few christian friends. I studied/researched the bible and couldn’t
stop loving it.
Life is more important than ministry or church or anything. I have seen people come to christ by just
drawn to his teachings and miracles happening in their lives which science cannot explain.
Please don’t think if you accept Christ as your God you will be branded as one among the other bad
examples you come across. In Christ’s sight everyone is unique and special. You are special too.
All the best !
However, TPM has violated that committment of living in rental houses and have thus bought lands worth several crores of rupees and also built buildings using the tithes money of people
You are mistaken David, its not ‘rupees’ but ‘KD (Kuwaitee Dinar)’….
TPM violated the commitment…?? So what can you do about it ?? Whats your issue…?? Go file an FIR…
You jealous?? You are burning and it stinks…I also wish that there were more women preachers in church because I don’t think God would discriminate based on one’s gender. I hope you are able to preach the gospel in your home town and help usher in a more Christ-oriented Christianity.
Rachel, C… You dont know who you are… You are confused with your own identity I blive. I mean… to say that , “God would not discriminate based on one’s gender…. and blah blah”, you are measuring God to be something existing.
And I also can see that the whole agenda of this blog is to malign the tpm people, its teachings and workers and serves nothing good for the society.
And even if theres nothing so nasty about my posts, you are continuing to delete my posts as ur true intentions are being exposed.
And again I feel it is better to be a non-Christian and drink, smoke or do drugs – than be a Christian like George W Bush or Tony Blair.
you called Bush to be a christian??? Do you know that he a devil-worshiper and that he belongs to a secret society??
http://www.theresistancemanifesto.com/
He hides behind the christian faith so that he can fool American public.
Some TPM people like Jim try to divert the attention of people by falsely accusing those who speak the truth, which exposes the misinterpretations of TPM. They are unable to bear and repent when TPM misinterpretations are exposed.
They try to call it criticizing when they forgot their criticism of those who expose the truth.
Secondly, they try to divert attention by claiming that those who expose TPM do not belong to TPM and that they belong to other churches. Readers should recognize their trick, which they adopt to stop those who expose the truth.
People like these in TPM among the Israelites scorned at the prophets of Israel who spoke the truth. Such scorners exhibit an unwillingness to repent or let others be delivered from the false doctrines of TPM, which self-glorify the workers.
Just remember, in a short while God along with the proclamation of his children will pull down the disunity causing false doctrines in TPM.
Also, remember, that God will pull down all the worker-glorifying doctrines in TPM, which hinders believers from receiving the prophetic calling (which God had ordained for all believers in the end times).
Hence, be part of God and not a part of the TPM’s mentality who fabricate identity creating and self-glorifying doctrines.
It was you who raised the issue of FIR not me. So you must be really interested to file an FIR against the Phillip killers. So please go ahead if you are really concerned about FIT’s.
If I had to file an FIR, I wud have never waited for your advice.. I do what I think, but you type and murmer about what you think rather than taking action…
I wonder if you have a high BP or hyper-tension issues.Sis Rachel Varghese, this is for you, I hope you got a mail from crg regarding this.
Romans:1:21: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Romans:1:22: Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
In my opinion these are category of people who think they know everything and then dont give glory to God, but to the knowledge or information that they have gained, which they think makes them inherit the kingdom of God. The ultimate result of the same is mentioned in Romans 1:22.
Romans:1:21: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Romans:1:22: Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
David Raj bhai, the above verses are for you tooo… they are Bible. Open up and read if you are even a Christian and examine yourself and stop blabbering about what tpm and other denominations are into by labeling it as the so called “exposing the truth”
Some TPM people like Jim try to divert the attention of people by falsely accusing those who speak the truth, which exposes the misinterpretations of TPM. They are unable to bear and repent when TPM misinterpretations are exposed.
David Raj Bhai, Even David of old-testament comitted sins but yet mercy of God was upon him to make him worthy of being called as a saint. So is His mercy upon you too…
Some tpm people like Jim are diverting the diverted attention of diverted people like you to God, whose whole body, soul, and spirit is already diverted to accusing and blaming tpm people, its workers and believers and whose whole life is dedicated to name calling and finger-pointing of those who left everything to consecrate thier life in the Lod’s ministry. Anna… Its not that easy as you think or accuse by words. Its an act… do it or leave it. You are not even worthy to even imagine about it. And you are talking about it??
Was pleasantly surprised to read your comments. I am wannabe-writer so your words are very encouraging.
Rachel Chitra, we need more of soothing and encouraging posts than that which promotes strife and hatred among the bretheren… Time for the change, time for you to think upon the same.
Jim,
Jim said, “Romans:1:21: and Romans:1:22
In my opinion these are category of people who think they know everything and then dont give glory to God, but to the knowledge or information that they have gained, which they think makes them inherit the kingdom of God. The ultimate result of the same is mentioned in Romans 1:22.”
The above opinion most rightly applies to Jim and CRG who defend the false doctrines of TPM and to TPM who fabricate false doctrines to self glorify themselves.
First Jim seems to be on a diet of walnuts and now he has high BP too!!Jim’s latest strategy is to accuse “truth speaking” as accusing because truth sounds bitter to fabricators and defenders of false doctrines.
The blood of Pas. Philip cries out against the TPM Cains. Now these cains and his supporters pretend as if nothing has happened.
In my opinion these are category of people who think they know everything and then dont give glory to God, but to the knowledge or information that they have gained, which they think makes them inherit the kingdom of God.
Rachel, YOUR OPINION !!!!! ????
Its your opinion, that is the worst force which is driving you all this time to think and play the blame-games. which we all understand is the result of what… But here we are talking about the reallity…Jim’s latest strategy is to accuse “truth speaking” as accusing because truth sounds bitter to fabricators and defenders of false doctrines.
This is not some strategy but the reallity which you would like to label it as some strategy.
We the tpm church-goers are Believers in Christ and we are strong in our doctrines and teaching of the Christ brought to us by our own revelations and saint’s and no man can mar us or shake us from our faith in Christ.
Lord tells me through Gal 1:8, 9
8)But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9)As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Now since YOU dont goto church, you cant expect to push down your so called OPINIONS or ONIONS on other church-goers.
Matth 24:35 says: The Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. And so as long as Gal 1:8,9 is with me, I shall not be shaken of people like you who are contributing to the negative cause of spreading strife and hatred.
Rachel Varghese,
If you have opinions you can only express it. You cannot push it down or impose it on others by force. You must understand this.
And Rachel Chitra,
This blog as you say, if it is meant for expressing opinions or views, it should be for the same and not for something which Rachel Varghese is into (
blaming, accusing, maligning, and spreading hatred and strife among the christian brethren)But then if your heart says that somthing which is going on in this blog is wonderful, and if your are enjoying it, then what shall I say??? Its all you blog. Go on… but then also remember that this blog-section of yours would be discussed by everyone in the future as a place of blame-games against tpm and people (even those who are not of tpm, catholics, non-church-goers and gentiles) will hate it more and more giving rise to more hatred in the society.
Save your blog from becoming a big pot of overcooked stinking stuff.
We do not preach another gospel. It is you and your TPM which preaches additional doctrines to the gospel created by your spiritual father Pas. Alwin.
It seems the gospel is not sufficient for you people. You want glory to celibate workers.
You want identity for TPM causing disunity in the body of Christ.
Such additions will be accursed. Such additions by your founder Pas. Alwin are not reality but lies.
The blood of Pas. Philip cries out against the TPM Cains. Now these cains and his supporters pretend as if nothing has happened.
Such additions will be accursed. Such additions by your founder Pas. Alwin are not reality but lies.
Founder is Alwyn?? What do you mean??
We do not preach another gospel.
Who “we”.. its just you and a handful of non-church-goers just like you..
The blood of Pas. Philip cries out against the TPM Cains
Who are you to judge who are all “Abel” and who are all “cains”?.. I told you if thats ur opinions, mention it as “I
n my opinion……..blah blah blah”…You cannot authoritatively impose your opinions on others.
This trick of yours are not going to work for any good means.1. All the following confusions were fabricated by Pas. Alwin De Alwis who was with Pas. Raman Kutty.
1. False interpretation of divine Healing.
2. Melchizedek-calling-for-workers.
3. Celibate apostleship.
4. TPM celibate workers belong to 144,000.
5. Women and marriage defiles a person.
6. Misinterpretation of Matthew 19:29.
7. Calling TPM buildings as “faith homes”.
8. Sunday school teachers and workers compulsorily prevented from wearing jewels whereas lately as a compromise other believers are allowed to wear jewels.
Finally he was excommunicated from TPM.
Now TPM boasts about and promotes the same doctrines founded by that excommunicated Pastor.
The problem Jim is a novice just like the thousands of other TPM believers and that is the reason for them to exhibit a zeal for TPM which lacks knowledge.
2. For the
brainwashedJim, church means the four walled TPM building. You must sympathise with Jim!!He finds it difficult to understand that God does not live in temples built by human hands. Jim should read Acts 17:24.
For people like Jim, Irumbuliyur convention visit is like devotees going for pilgrimage. Ofcourse these spiritual kids need pastors to suckle.
3. TPM pastors in kerala General body meeting killed Pas. Philip because he changed the name of CPM to TPM without consulting pastors from Kerala.
Cain killed Abel. Now whether TPM is cain or Philip was Cain, people know. At least one must be cain.
This fact is known by the thousands of TPM believers. No imposition needed!!
Jim grow up.
Hi susan,
Do you have backbone to tell that you belongs this or that church.Why are you keeping queit about my question.John
Pauline,
Just saw your comments. Will get back to you as soon as possible.
Cheers!
This fact is known by the thousands of TPM believers. No imposition needed!! Jim grow up.
If thousands of tpm believers knew this they wud have been murmuring and complaining just like you… The thing is, they have the wisdom, and they are following how God has been leading them…
The problem Jim is a novice just like the thousands of other TPM believers and that is the reason for them to exhibit a zeal for TPM which lacks knowledge. 2. For the brainwashed Jim, church means the four walled TPM building. You must sympathise with Jim!! He finds it difficult to understand that God does not live in temples built by human hands. Jim should read Acts 17:24. For people like Jim, Irumbuliyur convention visit is like devotees going for pilgrimage. Ofcourse these spiritual kids need pastors to suckle.
Now stop this name-callings.. it doesnt make you appear smart from any angle.
Cain killed Abel. Now whether TPM is cain or Philip was Cain, people know. At least one must be cain.
your opinions must be firm.. dont keep changing your opinions… NOW what do you mean at least one MUST be Cain?? God looked at Abel and had mercy on him. GOd looked for Cain to be judged… SO you are here acting as GOD to look for Cain??? Who are you to judge or decide whos who???
Stick on to your opinion about which even you are not firm…
And John brother…
about the backbone??? She doesnt have backbone as well as even the nerve to tell that because she doesnt go to church.. Now just because some PEOPLE dont go to church, THEY cant impose their insane opinions on other church-goers…Rachel Varghese…. I just remembered one good old Christian saying Just For You….
“If you can’t sleep, don’t count sheep. Talk to the Shepherd.”
Go thru 2 Timothy 3:13,14
13)But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.14) But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it,
Read Romans 16: 17,18
13) “Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
14)
For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly;and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.”Read Gal 1:8, 9
8)But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you
, let him be accursed.9)As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.The above is not from me but by the Holy words of God.
Remember that the Word of God is compared to the two-edged sword. If you can take out verses from Bible to suit your own personality, there are thousands of them that is against it. Read the whole Bible carefully…
Lets be strong and not be shaken…. and prepare ouselves for the coming of our Lord. May the good Lord strengthen all of us to fly away like an eagle when He comes in His glory.
God sends people like Rachel as, “Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves.”
Wolves who comes in Lamb’s clothing twisting the scriptures to stop the voice from God. This is what they did to the prophets. They scorned the prophets and killed them like they did Pas. Philip.
Satan works forociously to stop the voice of warning and to keep the flock under enslavement. Imaging what TPM did to Pas. Philip. That same spirit is working even against the prophets.
Speak the truth Rachel. God’s protection will be upon you as He was with the prophets.
Luke 11: 49Because of this, God in his wisdom said, ‘I will send them (TPM) prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill (Pas. Philip) and others they will persecute (Pas. Benjamin).’ 50Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.
Susan,
I really appreciate your concern for me and your kindness. As my friend I know you would want to defend me.
But I think your statements are a little off the mark.
God sends people like Rachel as, “Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves.”
Wolves who comes in Lamb’s clothing twisting the scriptures to stop the voice from God. This is what they did to the prophets. They scorned the prophets and killed them like they did Pas. Philip.
In this statement, you seem to forget I’m an atheist. Many Christians feel as an atheist I have no right to even quote the Bible. So when you liken my actions to the prophets in the Bible, Christians might give less credence to the validity of your other arguments.
As it is people are accusing me of being the devil, misquoting the scriptures. If you feel what I say is right, please support my argument.
But backing what you feel about me with the scriptures might only antagnoise Christians.
And again as far as most Christians are concerned – Jim is ok (no matter how badly he treats anyone) because he’s a Christian – but I am bad because I am an atheist.
So supporting me – might not be the best thing to do – if fighting against the doctrinal imperfections of the TPM is your objective.
Your friend,
Rachel
Rachel Chitra,
Notice there.. you are cross-lining most of the verses from Bible and not my words….
And again as far as most Christians are concerned – Jim is ok (no matter how badly he treats anyone) because he’s a Christian – but I am bad because I am an atheist.
Jim is ok because hes a Christian and has got the option of being getting condemned or forgiven…. But as for an athiest, they are already defined in Ps 14:1, though thier end wud be eternal hell-fire if they dont repent.
Now plz dont say I’m condemning you to hell-fire or “how dare you”… because it doent matter to you as IT DOESNT EXIST.
So supporting me – might not be the best thing to do
She has to support you to get her abusive posts approved from you and you are ok with it since you are in the nutral stand and no one is accusing you. Once I started revealing the the true purpose of this blog, you started deleting my posts.
Because you enjoy others getting insulted and abused in ur blog but cant withstand the accuse on you.
Jim,
You can post anything you want as long as its not hate mail. And I think I told you that earlier. Now that you have stopped calling others “fools” and idiots” you will notice some of your comments don’t get deleted.
Jim,
And as far as crossing out lines is concerned. The Bible even talks about sodomy, incest, prostitution, ….but I will not permit you to quote such verses here.
Your friend Ace did the same thing. Because he didn’t like some commenters, he started calling them prostitutes by quoting Bible verses.
So, Sorry. Quoting Bible verses doesn’t mean you get let off for being offensive.
Why I Am Offended When Told I Am Going To Hell
As an atheist I get told “You are going to Hell” quite often, whether it be from a person I know or in an anonymous email through this blog. I get quite offended by this which many might consider odd seeing as I believe that “Hell” doesn’t exist. My reasoning for my offense is quite simple though, and I suspect many atheists feel the same way about things like this.
If we go by most religious beliefs, Hell is a place where sinners are sent if they do not repent. A lot of religions believe that a murderer can get into Heaven if they repent their sins before they die, or sacrifice themselves to save another. In short, there are quite a few “get out clauses” that one can consider. My “crime” though, isn’t murder, nor is it rape or thieving. An atheist’s crime is simply thinking, or reasoning. So by this definition, I am offended that someone would believe that a murderer, rapist, or thief who has said they are sorry for their crimes would get into Heaven, whilst a person who has done nothing but think would go to Hell.
Conversely, if we take the religious belief that Hell is a place that all sinners go to regardless of whether they repent or not, I am still offended. It seems that whilst a god may or may not have given us free will (depending on what you believe), we do have it. Therefore it seems ever so slightly unfair that a person should be sent to Hell for using a mental ability that doesn’t cause harm to anyone else. By this definition, I am offended that anyone (gods included) would consider murder an equal crime to using free will.
As I have said, I do not believe Hell exists, but it can be assumed that anyone telling me I am “going to Hell” believes that it does. Therefore if they believe that I am going to Hell, they must also believe that I deserve it, since their beliefs are based on religion which claims to be the truth, and to question the truth would be a crime equal to my own. By this definition, I am offended that someone would believe that I actually deserve such a punishment for using my own questioning abilities.
Continuing this line of argument, we get to the believers who say that God doesn’t want us to go to Hell because he loves us. They claim that Hell is only for those who don’t repent, but this entire argument is based on their own questioning of scripture. To appear more neutral in the eyes of an ever-growing secular world, they have questioned their own interpretation of scripture, resulting in the conclusion that a loving God would rather have people in Heaven that Hell, and that some scripture shouldn’t be taken literally. The only difference between us is that I have concluded that the scripture is hypocritical, and they have concluded that the original interpretation is wrong. By this definition, I am offended that others would claim their own questioning isn’t a crime whilst my own is, based solely on the outcome of said questioning.
There are a lot of reasons why atheists should be offended when told they are hell-bound. Ist doesn’t matter if you personally don’t believe in the place, but that someone does and thinks that blind faith is the only way to get there. It’s not like atheists hate the idea of god, or that if faced with such a being after death would give him the finger. Surely any being who created free will would be more impressed by an honest skeptic than an unquestioning dogmatist?
Dear Moderator,
Just beware of Jim’s provocations. He again tries to shift the discussion from the topic of this blog.
Jim would abuse, then quote scriptures wrongly, then defend zealously the false doctrines of TPM lacking knowledge, then talk about theology without any knowledge of it.
His problem is that he does not understand the whole spectrum of TPM’s false doctrines nor does he have any knowledge of the TPM’s history.
His only agenda is defend TPM at all costs. He has not quoted any single verse to counter when I exposed the false doctrines of TPM. Please take note of that.
Neither did any of the TPM zealots like ace or Robinson. All they did was not counter scripturally but abuse and accuse left and right.
People like these, who lack knowledge or love, shed the blood of Pas. Phillip and persecuted pas. Benjamin and many others.
God is sure going to act against such. Watch and see. May God bless you for your efforts.
Susan,
You maybe right and thank you so much for the kind words & the mail.
The point I was trying to make was…..most Christians think atheists are bad.. So ….
He has not quoted any single verse to counter when I exposed the false doctrines of TPM. Please take note of that
Do you really think I’m here to play counter-blaming-games?? ur then mistaken… and please note of that?? So instead of God being the judge, u’ve already appointed Rachel-the-athiest as the supreme judge….
Just beware of Jim’s provocations. He again tries to shift the discussion from the topic of this blog.
Topic of this blog is to condemn and abuse tpm people and Rachel Chitra likes it very much.. She enjoys it as shes in the neutral stand.
His problem is that he does not understand the whole spectrum of TPM’s false doctrines nor does he have any knowledge of the TPM’s history.
Spectrum?? I told you that like every church, even tpm might be having its own shortcomings… I always say that,
You tell me ur church’s name and no doubt worms will come out of it.I never said NO to wht u say. Now why should I have knowledge about tpm and its history wen my God is there for me to look upon?? or how will it help me if I learn the history of tpm??? I mean, how is it helping you in getting the blessings of Lord??You are more like a jehadi among Muslims.His only agenda is defend TPM at all costs.
My agenda is to try and open ur closed eyes and ears so that you all may reallise that we are all called for being the priests and this kind of abusive posts will add more and more strife than doing any good to the society or people as a whole.
You are not even worthy to talk bout my agenda dear.All they did was not counter scripturally but abuse and accuse left and right.
Just left and right only??? what about Center?? you are doing that too… how do u want me to counter spiritually??
Take 2 Timothy 3:13,14 and read it. It applies to you and to me too..
13)But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.14) But as for you, continue in what you have learnt and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it,
Read Romans 16: 17,18 It applies to you and to me too..
13) “Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
WHY DONT YOU AVOID THEM?? WHY DONT YOU CONTINUE IN WHAT YOU HAVE LEARNT AND HAVE BECOME CONVINCED OF???
most Christians think atheists are bad..
Most of the Christians?? 100% of the Christians think the same and beyond that as per mentioned in Ps 14:1 and more than thinking bad, they feel pity on them as I do for Rachel Chitra. Indeed I feel so very pity for you Rachel Chitra… And if Susan doesnt think like that
, she disrespects the Word of God and I dont know by what name should I call her.God is sure going to act against such. Watch and see. May God bless you for your efforts.
Yes… watch and see… May God bless you and prepare you for His coming.
And yes.. God will never bless her as long as she is an athiest. Its a logic…. dont forget that.
Susan,
You maybe more than right…..I suddenly realised, every time Jim can’t handle questions about TPM, he starts talking about atheism.
When I counter him on atheism and the questions get too hot to handle…he again goes back to abusing everyone who is anti-TPM.
Maybe it is a diversionary tactic…..
Jim’s Course of action: Talk about TPM! Can’t defend their negative actions? Next start hitting out at atheists! Can’t answer the questions raised by atheists? Go back to hitting out at other Christians.
Maybe I should just stop replying to Jim, then he will have to address only the issues raised by Christians.
Pauline,
I appreciate your concern for me. I like Christ and still find his teachings revolutionary.
But it is not bad experiences in the church that made me become an atheist.
For me science or proof of existence became the sole deciding factor.
And again maybe we shouldn’t get too annoyed with Jim. I checked out his blog..
http://www.guitarstrums.blogspot.com/
He looks like he’s in his early 20s….so maybe he’s still in the process of forming his views.
I only wish he didn’t get so rigid and dogmatic about them.
Jim,
In your comments I can feel the displeasure and anger you have against anyone who dares comment about your “beloved church.”
But don’t hate anyone just because of their views.
You might learn a lot from us and we might also learn a lot from you.
I read your blog and found it quite interesting.
I was also a God-fearing Christian girl once. So its not like I can’t appreciate what you have written in your blog.
If you could tone down your language towards us and realised you were hurting us with your “harsh comments” we could really engage in meaningful debate.
But even as I write this I know your reply to this will only be sarcastic.
This comment was to say: A little kindness and a little thoughtfulness will go a long way.
Hey Rachel…
I was never a part of countering or hitting-outs… I just tried adding some sense to your nonsense concept of athiesm. Even Susan knows athiesm is a non-sense concept, or you may ask her. Let her express what she feels about athiesm. Infact every one knows it except for them.
Jim’s Course of action: Talk about TPM! Can’t defend their negative actions?
So you mean I am talking about TPM and the source of topic is me??.. I’m just diverting all of these people’s attention towards God and not tpm or athiesm… because theres no meaning of athiesm and secondly, bragging about tpm’ credentials or negativity isnt going to take you to heaven.
Maybe I should just stop replying to Jim, then he will have to address only the issues raised by Christians.
May be?? Sure.. be sure of it.. cos u cant handle the reality that the main pupose of this blog is to condemn the tpm people and you are helping this cause by joining hands with some church-crtics and who are not even church-goers.
And that I cant handle, I’m very weak compared to you all… wah wah wah wah…
HANDLE WHAT??? YOUR QUESTIONS AND COUNTERING SOME QUESTIONS WHICH WILL BRING NO RESULT AT ALL??? WHAT IS GOING TO BE THE GOOD THING OF THIS DISCUSSION?? OR WHT IS IT YOU ALL WANT TO ACHIEVE FROM THESE DISCUSSIONS???
DONT YOU REALLISE THAT THIS BLOG HAVING MORE THAN A 1000 POSTS HERE HAS COME UP WITH NO GOOD THING AND ITS NOT GOING TO SERVE ANY PURPOSE OF DIVINITY??
well… I pity you and all those here posting posing as divine people.
Dear Moderator,
Your assessment of Jim is perfectly right. He plays exactly the same tantrum.
It is better to ignore this guy who needs to grow up both in attitude and in knowledge of scriptures.
However, he won’t let you ignore him. He will provoke, then write sarcastically, then poke fun, complain, evade questions, shift topics. All these are to coerce us to address him. Maybe he was a kid who lacked appropriate attention in childhood.
Let us focus on the topic of this blog i.e the misinterpretations and false doctrines of TPM. Many people who visit this site have written to me that they have been blessed by the insights they get about TPM.
That helps them to grow up spiritually by the following ways:
1. Stop bragging about TPM workers.
2. Start defending Christ and His love rather than defend the TPM workers irrationally.
3. Start equipping themselves to proclaim Christ.
4. Stop depending on TPM workers for intercession and spiritual food and start depending on the Holy Spirit as per 1 Jon 2:27.
5. Loving and mingling with all christian groups and ministries and giving up jingoism for TPM workers.
6. Uderstanding that the heart is the temple of God and giving up TPM identity.
7. Giving up show off of the false external white washed, white dressed religion and start showing religion by love for all christian groups by mingling with them and singing their songs.
8. Create awareness among girls so that they do not get deceived by TPM’s false doctrines and end up washing vessels and lavatories.
May God bless the Moderator.
Maybe he was a kid who lacked appropriate attention in childhood.
This comment reflects the quality of your upbringing and the standards of your parents who brought you up.CONGRATULATIONS YOU ARE RATED in 5 STARS (better than me— I’m jealous of you now) !!!Many people who visit this site have written to me that they have been blessed by the insights they get about TPM.
Many of them BLESSED??? I still have the chain mails with me when you could not respond to any of the mails and you stopped maling to us…
Create awareness among girls so that they do not get deceived by TPM’s false doctrines and end up washing vessels and lavatories.
Girls are faaar behind in this task… Brothers have already made their place and are number one here too.
1. Stop bragging about TPM workers.
We never do that… clear your misconceptions first and then talk.
3. Start equipping themselves to proclaim Christ.
Start?? Ask this question yourself 1st…
Have YOU started or still among the deads???Stop depending on TPM workers for intercession and spiritual food and start depending on the Holy Spirit as per 1 Jon 2:27.
Who told you this new
rottenfact?? intercession for our prayers are “in the name of Jesus” not any workers…Loving and mingling with all christian groups and ministries and giving up jingoism for TPM workers.
We however cannot compromise on this one. Look at yourself.. you expect us to mingle ourselves with people like you??
We preach gospel so that we may present every man in Christ Jesus (Col 1:28) and not some tpm worker or people like you, who are jingoistic for being against tpm. What difference does it make wheather it be you or any tpm people if you think they are sinners??
Uderstanding that the heart is the temple of God and giving up TPM identity.
Give glory to God and not tpm. Heart is the temple of God… And about the identity, It has to have an identity for the goverment and the church-goers like any other christians… you are not a church-goer so for you everyone going to church are bad and if not, you are advocating that tpm should be a secret society, having no identity which against the Word of God. How can tpm exist without having an identity??
In John 18:20, Jesus said,
“Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.” –
Ephesians 5:11-14: “For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret.”
1Thessalonians 5:21 says, test everything and hold on to good. and 22 says: abstain from evil. if tpm is evil, are you abstaining from it??
And about tpm workers?? More than being of tpm workers, they are over us in the Lord and to admonish us and teach us. it also tells us to hold them in the highest regard.
Thessalonians 5:12,13 says: 12 Now we ask you, brothers, to respect those who work hard among you, who are over you in the Lord and who admonish you. 13 Hold them in the highest regard in love because of their work.
Start defending Christ and His love rather than defend the TPM workers irrationally.
Its you who is doing it.. you are always bragging about tpm.. we never do that.. we are taught to defend Christ at all times.
start showing religion by love … and not by white clothes
Well I dont believe in any religion, Christ for me is TRUTH.. HIS existence is TRUTH.. its a fact that HE LIVES… And for me, Christ never came down leaving all glory of the heaven to create a religion… but to save you, save me and to redeem the whole mankind form the bondage of sin. And that HE IS COMING back VERY SOON… !!!
May God bless the Moderator.
May good Lord open her eys first to reallise that these is a God. May He fill her with divine understanding so that she repends and turns to God, to be worthy of HIS blessings.
I would like Rachel Chitra to go thru this testimony of a hard-core athiest.
http://www.gospelguitarcourse.com/main.php?e=&l=&r=0
Satan works forociously to stop the voice of warning and to keep the flock under enslavement. Imaging what TPM did to Pas. Philip. That same spirit is working even against the prophets.
Voice of warning?? I never hear that and dont want to hear as long as my ears are inclined toward God to hear His voice. Where are your ears and mouth inclined to ??
“Imagining what TPM did to Pas…. blah blah…”
First of all, TPM is an identity and not a man. Secondly, even Pas. Philip belonged to CPM (which again was an entity)… CPM still exists in Ceylon with same teachings and doctrines as TPM.. Its just the name that is different.
In every country, tpm is known with a different name. See wikipedia for more info… a gyst as follows…
Grace New Covenant Pentecostal Church – Canada
Universal Pentecostal Church – Great Britain
Eglise de Pentecote Primitive – France
Iglesia Communion Cristiana – Puerto Rico
New Testament Church – Sierra Leone
New Covenant Pentecostal Church – Australia
New Testament Church – New Zealand
New Testament Church– Papua New Guinea
New Testament Church – Nepal
New Testament Church – Fiji
Iglesia del Nueva Testamento – Mexico
Iglesia Communion Cristiana – El Salvador
Iglesia Communion Cristiana – Costa Rica
New Testament Church – Kenya
Christliche Gnaden Gemeinde – Switzerland
Neue Testament Kirche – Germany
The Universal Pentecostal Church – Nigeria
The Pentecostal Mission (TPM) – India
Pentecostal Church of Malaysia
Pentecostal Church of Singapore
New Testament Church – Middle East (headquartered in Dubai, UAE)
It now has churches (or Faith Homes) in every continent with close to 2 – 3 million believers worldwide. The church has spread to many parts of Sri Lanka, as well as India, Nepal, Malaysia, Singapore, Hong Kong, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, USA, England, France, Europe, Africa, Caribbean Islands, and the Middle East, and is continuing to expand.
DO PASTORS & APOSTLES NEED TO BE CELIBATES?
The TPM denomination claims the following:
1. That apostles and pastors would do better if they remain unmarried.
2. That TPM pastors are superior to pastors from other denominations.
3. Apostles should not be married or in case they are married earlier they should forsake their wives.
WHAT IS THE TRUTH?
Dear Brethren, 1 Timothy 3: 5 says, “(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?)”
Thus, God expects the people, especially those who lead and manage congregations, to be married and be able to manage their family.
Secondly, Jesus never commanded His apostles to remain unmarried. If He had required that apostles should be celibates, He would have selected unmarried people as apostles. However, Jesus chose married people as apostles.
Thirdly, 1 Corinthians 9:5 says, “5Don’t we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas[a]?
The above verse clearly states that apostles never forsook their wives but instead they took them along. Moreover, Paul the apostle claims, in the above verse, that he has a right to marry as the other apostles did.
Fourthly, in 1 Timothy 4: 1, 2 and 3 the Bible warns saying, “The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry…”
Thus, the Holy Spirit warns that in the last days, false teachers will forbid people to abstain from marriage. Beware of TPM which calls marriage as lustful and defiling.
Paul the apostle claims, in the above verse, that he has a right to marry as the other apostles did.
Something to be noted here… Apostle Paul claimed his right to be married… this is absolutely correct.. BUT DID HE MARRY ??
In 1 Cor 7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
Noted?? It is good… So this is what called as a “higher calling”… because when you marry, you care for the things of this world… (children’s education, cooking, working in the world to make a living, serving husband and fufilling his and her own desires, children’s growth, and lot more…)
1 Cor 7:34 There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.
Apostle Paul says again: 1 Cor 7:32 But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord:
Same is said about the man too
1 Cor 7:33 But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.
Now you want to know what is calling???
1 Cor 7:22: For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord’s freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ’s servant…
No go through this one…
1 Cor 7:6 But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.
Remember Susan…. this is NOT a COMMANDMENT… but a CHOICE as Apostle Paul says.. its a choice… Paul doesnt say all these as a commandement. SO again working as pastors as married is NOT a sin but GOOD in the eyes of the Lord.
Paul says that you MAY do this but you are not COMMANDED to do this… So again this clearly is a choice… tpm is just a name on the registration on a piece of paper for an identity for the goverment formalities… The workers are neither tpm nor tpm is any worker… tpm is an entity.
When an entire chapter dedicated to serving the lord is clearly there, why theres any need to select only those verses which are suiting as per your choice??
Remember that the Word of the Lord is like 2-edged sword !!!
Rachel Chitra,
The following statement from Susan not cross-lines clearly indicates that you are one-sided… Do you even reallise the depth of hatred she has in her heart for me that she finally targeted my upbringing?? Do you even know that the quality of this comment refelcts the inside-out quality of her character too??
Maybe he was a kid who lacked appropriate attention in childhood.
TPM makes celibacy a commandment for workers. Married people who joined the ministry have to renounce marriage. This is the deception of TPM.
If marriage makes a person less caring for the Lord then why do TPM pastors get marriage licenses to promote the attitude of “caring less” for the lord among the people?
Paul the apostle did not have a marriage licence to conduct marriages. But TPM is marriage club conducting marriages and denouncing marriages at the same time.
TPM makes celibacy a commandment for workers.
I pity your perception on this. Let me put some light on to this… tpm has workers who are married.. but nowadays, since it has become a headache for the management for handling workers having family when instructed for transfers etc, it becomes a great pain for the entire family to move from one place to anotherand sometime leads to disobedience.. So tpm management doesnt say you cant marry.. but says if you want to marry and serve the Lord, go and evangelise the people independanly…
As for the licence, I’ll get back to u 2moro.. I’m getting late for an imp meeting and then straightaway for home.. bye.
Jim,
Susan hinted that you might be an attention seeker…because of not getting enough attention during your childhood.
You immediately said, “Susan’s parents are bad and so is her upbringing…”
And anyway at some point I also feel your behaviour is only “attention seeking…” You can’t carry a conversation, answer a question or even address any of the issues.
You said I’d go to hell, I told you I was offended by your attitude and posted a long reply. You happily ignored that as you ignored my other replies. A decent person would have apologised.
If name-calling and accusations are the only thing you are capable of, why hold us to account if we think your behaviour is “attention seeking?”
Do be more careful when you send mail…..you could be arrested for such “hate mail.” I have known of bloggers in the US, who have approached the courts when they didn’t like people sending them hate mail.
1. Jim said, “…but (TPM) says if you want to marry and serve the Lord, go and evangelise the people independanly…”
Any person with a very poor IQ also could understand the above statement of Jim to mean exactly what Susan said.
Susan implied that, “TPM does not allow married workers to remain in marriage after entering TPM ministry”.
And Jim goes around as if trying to disprove Susan’s point and ends up exactly what Susan stated.
What Jim is doing is called as twisting and ending up doing nothing.
The Moderator is right. Jim lacks the decency and in my opinion he lacks intellectual soundness as well.
2. TPM itself is independent not mingling with other christians with a “holier than thou” attitude. Why does Jim come to mingle here (maybe for attention!) irrationally one wonders?
All christians who are in Christ are dependent on God. There is no such thing as independent ministry which TPM claims. Pas. Raman Kutty left Pas. Walter Clifford and started a separate fellowship. Did Walter go around telling that TPM was independent? No. Because he was decent.
David,
Ranjith’s statements make a lot of sense. He says he is with the TPM because he wants to follow their belief system. He doesn’t impose his belief system on others. He doesn’t say like Jim, “No one should criticise TPM. No one has the right to criticise the TPM. If you dare criticise the TPM you are not a Christian.” For Ranjith it was a matter of personal conviction, which all of us can respect.
And his friend Ace tells us: “And if you dare criticise the TPM it means you are anti-Christ.”
I had to delete so many of Ace’s comments. He was so abusive! Shocking!
I wonder if they have at all read the Bible.
He doesn’t say like Jim, “No one should criticise TPM. No one has the right to criticise the TPM.
Listen up… I said no one should criticise tpm unless you know inside-out of it…
Any person with a very poor IQ also could understand the above statement of Jim to mean exactly what Susan said.
So ur here to rate other’s IQ… it seems you lack the Love of Christ.. If youare talking about my IQ, u must keep in mind that I’m an engg having a job in Mumbai. dont blabber around.
There is a difference between criticising and the way to decently percieve it. May be I want to say exactly wht Susan wants to imply… but then again theres a difference in that too. She looks at it in the negative view-point.
take for eg this one itself: but (TPM) says if you want to marry and serve the Lord, go and evangelise the people independanly…”
Now point out to me whats so negative about this?? tpm says go and evangelise independanly as they are not able to manage the married couples in the ministry. I told you about the St Paul’s choice. Its a choice and not a commandment.
And Jim goes around as if trying to disprove Susan’s point and ends up exactly what Susan stated.
I never tried to counter any of the posts here… infact I was never here for it… I was trying to make some sense out of your critic posts which in a way are distracting, horrible, full-of-hatred and spirit of divisions among the christians esp new and weaker souls in Christ.
TPM itself is independent not mingling with other christians with a “holier than thou” attitude.
I’ve posted my about this earlier… leme come up with again
“We however cannot compromise on this one. Look at yourself.. you expect us to mingle ourselves with people like you??
We preach gospel so that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus (Col 1:28) and not some tpm worker or people like you, who are jingoistic for being against tpm. What difference does it make wheather it be you or any tpm people if you think they are sinners??
And about the attitude, David Anna… I would say improvise on your negative attitude and be happy atleast they know Christ and if they are wrong, God LIVES to judge..be happy smile and go on. This attitude of yours, Susan’s, Rachel V etc will only cause yourself to loose your patience and increase the mental pain and frustation which again may lead to health problems.
And if you say you are a critic and its your job or hobby is to do that, then I would say….. “I pity a critic’s life… a critic kills himself and adds no value to any one’s life” just like you people.. If you are saying I’m here for attention, I wud laugh at it… because I think the same about you all.
The Moderator is right. Jim lacks the decency and in my opinion he lacks intellectual soundness as well.
I again would laugh at it. cos you are talking about my intellectual soundness when and I’ve been thinking about you in this regard. I told you this entire blog is aimed at criticising tpm and people related to it and serves no good thing for the society. Now whos posting here for attention??, Who lacks the intellectual soundness??
All christians who are in Christ are dependent on God. There is no such thing as independent ministry which TPM claims.
David… I dont want to rate your IQ but then this statement from you has compelled me to do that. The first statement is very much correct… But the 2nd statement.. “theres no such thing…blah blah”.. this is typed out of aggresion because it talks about its financial and support-independency without any aid from any foriegn missionary group; depending only in the faith they have in Christ. And you see the result.
It now has churches (or Faith Homes) in every continent with close to 2 – 3 million believers worldwide. The church has spread to many parts of Sri Lanka, as well as India, Nepal, Malaysia, Singapore, Hong Kong, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, USA, England, France, Europe, Africa, Caribbean Islands, and the Middle East, and is continuing to expand.
1. Being an Engineer says nothing about the knowledge of the scriptures.
2. Jim says, “I never tried to counter any of the posts here…”
Reply: Because he cannot counter them. TPM has false doctrines and Jim or anyone else has not countered anyone as yet. Truth cannot be countered.
3. Jim’s attitude and behaviour draws negative reaction and he is talking about the greatness of TPM. TPM is a pack of similar people like Jim filled with worker zeal and lack of knowledge.
They cannot mingle with others because of their slavery to TPM identity.
They cannot sing other songs because they could not give up the false doctrines intertwined in TPM songs.
4. TPM makes celibacy as a mandatory commandment which is alien to Paul. Secondly Paul did not have marriage licence like TPM marriage registrars.
5. IN CHENNAI TPM HAS JUST 23 CHURCHES IN TOTAL. HOWEVER, OTHER PENTECOSTAL CHURCHES HAVE 2,500 CHURCHES IN CHENNAI ALONE. TPM CAME TO CHENNAI IN 1945 BUT OTHER PENTECOSTAL CHURCHES CAME ONLY AFTER 1975.
TPM CHURCH HAS A TOTAL OF 25,000 BELIEVERS IN CHENNAI WHEREAS THE OTHER PENTECOSTAL CHURCHES HAVE A TOTAL OF 2,60,000 BELIEVERS!!
Susan hinted that you might be an attention seeker…because of not getting enough attention during your childhood.
O.. that way… if so then plz care to tell her this also that I was one among best singers and guitarists right from my young age and has won many awards and merits, even came in news papers… and still I’m into it. I’ve got blogs, articles, poems and songs, compositions, ballads which are read, and appreciated by people.. As far as attention is concerned, I ONLY HAD THAT.
And anyway at some point I also feel your behaviour is only “attention seeking…” You can’t carry a conversation, answer a question or even address any of the issues.
‘Attention-seeking’ is the key word that I would like to relate with all of you…. I cant carry a conversation or answer a question or even address any of the issues??
well….I cleared it… I’m not into this conversation and dont want to be.. as this conversations are leading to nothing good… I dont want to answer any of your questions as it doesnt make any sense.. you said it.. “ita matter of personal conviction”.. this is my personal conviction…
And as far as clearing the wrong perceptions and negativity in attitude among you is concernerd, I’ll try and definitely clear those. Did I say clearing them.. this is possible only wen you are ready to accept it..
Being an Engineer says nothing about the knowledge of the scriptures.
What is the meaning of the above??
I dont need to have an in-depth knowledge about the scriptures as far as I believe in my Lord blindly than having excess knowledge for nothing good concerning winning souls. What is your knowledge worth??? exposing truth?? what truth?? that tpm is bad?? after so many posts that you have posted, how many of the tpm people have ever benefitted from it or got convinced with your so called “personal convictions”??
Reply: Because he cannot counter them. TPM has false doctrines and Jim or anyone else has not countered anyone as yet. Truth cannot be countered.
Did you say counter the truth?? Yes its a TRUTH that the TRUTH you claim is your personal convictions targetted towards suiting your own personality. And I cant help it.. I cant counter them.. I can only tell you what my personal convictions are and how both can be percieved as a positive aspect…
They cannot mingle with others because of their slavery to TPM identity.
Well… I’ve cleared you about the hows and whys regarding the identity of the tpm… but then.. if cant percieve or grasp and register it into the grey cells of your brain, I’m very sorry for you.
They cannot sing other songs because they could not give up the false doctrines intertwined in TPM songs.
There are many churches which has been inspired from tpm songs and sing it in their churches too… And even we take inspiration.. I’m into it. I perform all gospel songs varying from country gospel songs of calvary group to hill-songs and gospel songs of don moen, elvis, jim reeves, randy travis.. etc IN THE CHURCH during the anniversaries… why dont you take it as a positive aspect.. Take my words.. “Change your attitude and see the whole world changing Just For You”…
TPM makes celibacy as a mandatory commandment which is alien to Paul. Secondly Paul did not have marriage licence like TPM marriage registrars.
I told you its a choice and not a commandment to be celibate and serve the lord… now wht about those who want to marry?? Now if you want to be married, there are further strict instructions in bible about it.. you know that better than me… So to join people in holy matrimony, Pastors has to have licences, to abide by the goverment rules and regulations. Otherwise marriages in tpm wil not be goverment recognised leading to disobedience of Law of the land.
IN CHENNAI TPM HAS JUST 23 CHURCHES IN TOTAL. HOWEVER, OTHER PENTECOSTAL CHURCHES HAVE 2,500 CHURCHES IN CHENNAI ALONE. TPM CAME TO CHENNAI IN 1945 BUT OTHER PENTECOSTAL CHURCHES CAME ONLY AFTER 1975. TPM CHURCH HAS A TOTAL OF 25,000 BELIEVERS IN CHENNAI WHEREAS THE OTHER PENTECOSTAL CHURCHES HAVE A TOTAL OF 2,60,000 BELIEVERS!!
tpm = 23, other pentacostals=2,500
Total = 23+2500= 2423 churches (wonderful)
tpm believers=25,000, Other pentacostal believers= 2,60,000
Total = 25000+260,000=2,85,000 (wonderful)
What is the population of Chennai- 4.34 million… Can you believe that figure?? How many of them are not saved ?? What is all that your scriptural knowledge is worth when you couldnt win them?? Remembr you’ll be answerable in the judgement day…
The matter here is an integrated approach. You take things positively and the things comes to you positively… agin leme remind you… “Change your attitude and see the whole world changing Just For You”…
Rachel C,
The problems with critics are that they dont change…. but thier views and opinions keep on changing as facts are revealed to them from time to time… They think they are trying and changing the people but they are not doing that too. They think they are finding faults and bringing about a change in some system. But then, they are killing themselves with thier own perceptions.. because criticism is widely accepted as finger-pointing and as bad gesture by the most.
If you start criticising, there are many things in this world to be targeted.. Did I say MANY things?? There can be criticism in EVERYTHING you see or come across if you see them with the critic’s eyes.
If we start living for the sake of criticising anyone or anything, a million life wont be enough for it… So how do we take out time to LIVE our lives peacefully??
Life is beyond criticising…
Hey Rachel,
You might learn a lot from us and we might also learn a lot from you.
Well sorry I can learn nothing from you even if I try… and I dont think I’m teaching you anything to be learnt from me… please spare me… I’m not here to teach anyone anything unless people allow themselves to learn to percieve positively with a positive attitude. If people have a positive attitude, they dont need anyone teaching or guiding them to percieve things…
Btw; well.. thanks for visiting my blogs… I’m not in my early 20s but in the mid 20s… That pic in the blog i’ve put up is an old one… but since I like its original scenary behind, I’m keeping it. Its not taken in a studio… I’ve other blogs too, if you care to read them..
http://www.symbyrockers.blogspot.com
http://www.itinfratech.blogspot.com
I read your blog and found it quite interesting.
Thanks again.
Thanks-
Jimson
The founder Pastor Paul was a married man and
had children when in a faithhome. The celibate type of
ministry was introduced by Pastor Alvin, a sinhalese. He changed Paul’s vision into a catholic style ministry. Finally
this Alvin fell in adultery and was excommunicated
from CPM.
Pastor Freddy Paul, son of founder had got
many Pastors married. A leading example is Pastor
Manohar who is now in Jaipur faithhome. He has four
children. His wife is Sis. Lilykutty. Similarly the
founder Paul also got 10 Pastors married and they
lived in a marriage when in CPM ministry.
1 Corinthians 9 verse 5 states that the apostles had the
authority to be married and that was why Pastors like
Manohar, Founder Paul, Pastor Joseph (Composer Sis.
Glory’s dad), Mother Arthur etc., were all in marriage
during their ministry.
Later, celibacy was promoted to create an identity for CPM and thereby preserve their believers from leaving the denomination.
The Founders of CPM had made a commitment to live in rental houses and not to buy lands and buildings of their own. That is why they decided to call their places of worship as “faith homes”. However, lands are purchased now and buildings are constructed. Even now the places of worship are called as “faith home” in contrary to the commitment.
TPM is an isolated insignificant small group with many fabricated false doctrines to perch up their image unbiblically.
Very soon their identity would fall and unity is going to blossom among the denominations just as it is going to be in heaven.
WHO IS A SHEPHERD?
In John chapter 10 and verses 11, 12 & 13, Jesus says, “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep….The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.”
In the above verse, Jesus shows the difference between a shepherd and the hired hand. The following are the differences:
1. The shepherd owns the sheep but the hired hand does not.
2. The shepherd lives and dies along with the sheep whereas the hired hand runs away. Where does he run? He runs to another town. Why? To lead another herd of sheep. Thus, he goes from town to town and does not take responsibility for the sheep.
Can you understand? TPM pastors are just like the hired hands who run from place to place. They never own the sheep. TPM workers are similar to the priests in the Roman Catholic church who go from parish to parish. These are “hired hands” and not shepherds.
They just pretend to be interceding for you when actually they just want your money. They want you to be dependent on them so they can help themselves with your money. They just do not care for you or for your calling as a priest to be fulfilled. Beware of these “hired hands”!!
In John chapter 10 and verses 11, 12 & 13, Jesus says, “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
Where is Jesus then?? Is He in the other town?? or other country?? He is out of this world in heaven… So do you call him a hired hand too??
They just pretend to be interceding for you when actually they just want your money.
This is again your personal conviction. Good for you !!!
They just do not care for you or for your calling as a priest to be fulfilled. Beware of these “hired hands”!!
In one hand you say.. we are all idividually called to be priests and on the other hand, you advocate us to depend on our sheperds (pastors) and say they dont really care for you.. Who wants them to care for us when Jesus the high priest is ALIVE and hes going to come back very soon??
Again here the matter is of perception.
And David brother… what you have posted is something very very old… I’ve responded to these more than enough times.
Very soon their identity would fall and unity is going to blossom among the denominations just as it is going to be in heaven.
I dont know how would you take it if I say it. My wisdom says.. this view is of an anti-christian…. because you are saying it for “denominations” which inludes all the oriental denominations like hinduism, greek gods, budhism, jainism etc…
A day as you say is not far when a man will arise from men who will call for unity and peace and compromise all teh religious and denominational faiths to build one and only one true religion… I can go on explaining this thing page and page about this if you want.. Let me know if you want to.
For me as a Christian and my teaching, I’m NOT READY TO COMPROMISE WHAT I HAVE LEARNT AND I’LL HOLD ON TO MY FAITH IN CHRIST at any cost.
If name-calling and accusations are the only thing you are capable of, why hold us to account if we think your behaviour is “attention seeking?”
Rachel,
“If name-calling, accusations, abuses, hatred, divisions and confusions are the only thing you and your blog is capable of, why hold ME to account if I think your behaviour is “attention-seeking???””
Name calling is something in which you are into along with all others here. And my hate mails you are talking about, …. I’m wondering if this is really you or some hacking tools posting this posts…
BECAUSE THIS ENTIRE BLOG IS TARGETTED TO ABUSE AND IS FULL OF HATE MAILS FOR SOME COMMUNITY…
Ace,
Your words are quite harsh and they might not like it, We need to love our enemys as ourselves… You should to be more wise than to point-finger out of emotions, lest devil works in you too… Plz dont be offended ace, cos this is fact.. hatred is devil, devil is haterd…. whereas, God is Love.
I got this mail from a brother Moses… Please read…
This person (all of those posting here against any community) is best described by the Word of God as a heretick in
(Titus 3:10
A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;) the Bible also tells us to reject the counsel and company of such indiscriminate people. I urge you therefore to add this user to spam and please block all her mails and forwards .
The Word of God also tells us in
Titus 3:9
But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings. Therefore let us keep quiet on these matters and avoid confrontations and let us be strong and sincere in our Faith and in our fellowship with the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Also in (1 Timothy 6:20:
O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and VAIN BABBLINGS, and oppositions) And…
(2 Timothy 2:16:
But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.)
(Ephesians 2:10
We are the building and workmanship of Christ. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.) We are created unto good works so let us continue in good works not bringing a railing accusation like satan. If we accuse our fellow
Christians Jude1:9
says The Lord will rebuke us. Let us therefore escape the wrath of God and continue in undisputed harmony and the Love of Calvary.
Ephesians 2:21
Says In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord . Hence let us be united in Christ Being an holy temple unto Him without any kind of differences.
Please do not bother about the mails u receive from the afore mentioned user and SIMPLY IGNORE.
Follow the advice of St. Paul given in 1 Timothy 1:19,20
19: Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
I Peter 2:1: Let us cease from all manner of malice and evil speaking.
May the Lord give us His manifold wisdom and unceasing Grace to withstand all manner of criticism and to be at perfect peace.
Please encourage the children of God and don’t discourage.
TRUE SACRIFICE. WHAT IS IT?
What is sacrifice? God has given us many resources like time, energy, wisdom, money etc. Sacrifice means spending our resources for the work in God’s kingdom.
God wants us to sacrifice. How can we sacrifice? By spending our time and energy to do the following:
1. Read and meditate the scriptures with a concordance Bible and a Chain reference. Psalms 1:2.
2. Ask and wait on the Holy Spirit for a word of encouragement.
3. Share that word of encouragement with those in suffering and pain.
4. Gather the family members and neighbors and lead them in worship to God as per Acts 2:46.
5. Teach them the scriptures as per Colossians 3:16.
6. Give tithes to gospel workers and pastors in villages as per 1 Cor 9:13,14.
The above is the sacrifice, which God wants. However, most Pentecostals have chosen the following sacrifice:
1. Removing jewels.
2. Wearing white saree and white shirts.
3. Shaving the moustache.
4. Depending on pastors like kids.
5. Pleasing the pastors.
Dear Brethren, God sees the heart and not your external display. Hence, instead of an external “show” of piety and righteousness like the Hindu sanyasis and Buddhist monks, show your godliness before God by “working” for the kingdom of God as per item 1 to item 6.
Be a Pentecostal by the “internal” experience shown in preaching His gospel with miracles as per John 14:12 and not by the external display of white dress. Avoid showing off your religion, piety and righteousness to others. God hates that.
Build the temple inside you rather than the buildings of denominations. Most Pentecostal pastors train the believers to give money while the believers remain as kids. Pastors do this by “feeding” them instead of “equipping” them.
Seek to give the true sacrifices, which God desires and thus lay treasures in heaven.
hi guys,
praise the lord, we r the followers of jesus christ lets not quaral each other pls. we have to be in one fold bcos’ god is our sheperd, if we dont have unity in us satan will defenetly scater us and use us of his works so pls dont abuse any denomination in christianity,
thanks
prasanna
TRUE SACRIFICE. WHAT IS IT?
What is sacrifice? God has given us many resources like time, energy, wisdom, money etc. Sacrifice means spending our resources for the work in God’s kingdom.
God wants us to sacrifice. How can we sacrifice? By spending our time and energy to do the following:
1. Read and meditate the scriptures with a concordance Bible and a Chain reference. Psalms 1:2.
2. Ask and wait on the Holy Spirit for a word of encouragement.
3. Share that word of encouragement with those in suffering and pain.
4. Gather the family members and neighbors and lead them in worship to God as per Acts 2:46.
5. Teach them the scriptures as per Colossians 3:16.
6. Give tithes to gospel workers and pastors in villages as per 1 Cor 9:13,14.
The above is the sacrifice, which God wants. However, most Pentecostals have chosen the following sacrifice:
1. Removing jewels.
2. Wearing white saree and white shirts.
3. Shaving the moustache.
4. Depending on pastors like kids.
5. Pleasing the pastors.
Dear Brethren, God sees the heart and not your external display. Hence, instead of an external “show” of piety and righteousness like the Hindu sanyasis and Buddhist monks, show your godliness before God by “working” for the kingdom of God as per item 1 to item 6.
Be a Pentecostal by the “internal” experience shown in preaching His gospel with miracles as per John 14:12 and not by the external display of white dress. Avoid showing off your religion, piety and righteousness to others. God hates that.
Build the temple inside you rather than the buildings of denominations. Most Pentecostal pastors train the believers to give money while the believers remain as kids. Pastors do this by “feeding” them instead of “equipping” them.
Seek to give the true sacrifices, which God desires and thus lay treasures in heaven.
OLD…OLD… THIS IS A VERY VERY OLD POST… ROTTEN AND NOW STINKING SINCE AGES…
Hi Chitra,
This is a nice mail I got, thought I would share it with you.
Answer to an interview question on religion by ‘Larry Wall’ (founder of Perl programming language)
-worth reading.
7) Role of Religion?
Asked by Anonymous
I remember reading at some point that you are a Christian, and there have been suggestions that some of your early missionary impulses (a desire to do good, help others) are perhaps part of the zeal you have put into Perl over the years.
Preferring a scientific view, I am not religious, and have no desire to be. Perhaps there is a God, but if there is, I think he/she has no opposable thumbs; in other words, has no power to change anything; reality is just playing out according to the laws of physics (whatever those are).
Please tell us how in the world a scientific or at least technical mind can believe in God, and what role religion has played in your work on Perl.
A:
Well, hmm, that’s a topic for an entire essay, or a book, or a life. But I’ll try to keep it short.
When you say “how in the world”, I take it to mean that you find it more or less inconceivable that someone with a scientific mind (or at least technical mind, hah!) could chooose to believe in God. I’d like to at least get you to the point where you find it conceivable. I expect a good deal of the problem is that you are busy disbelieving a different God than the one I am busy believing in. In theological discussions more than any other kind, it’s easy to talk at right angles and never even realize it.
So let me try to clarify what I mean, and reduce it to as few information bits as possible. A lot of people have a vested interest in making this a lot tougher to swallow than it needs to be, but it’s supposed to be simple enough that a child can understand it. It doesn’t take great energetic gobs of faith on your part–after all, Jesus said you only have to have faith the size of a mustard seed. So just how big is that, in information theory terms? I think it’s just two bits big. Please allow me to qoute a couple “bits” from Hebrews, slightly paraphrased:
You can’t please God the way Enoch did without some faith, because those who come to God must (minimally) believe that:
A) God exists, and
B) God is good to people who really look for him.
That’s it. The “good news” is so simple that a child can understand it, and so deep that a philosopher can’t.
Now, it appears that you’re willing to admit the possibility of bit A being a 1, so you’re almost halfway there. Or maybe you’re a quarter way there on average, if it’s a qubit that’s still flopping around like Shoedinger’s Cat. You’re the observer there, not me–unless of course you’re dead. 🙂
A lot of folks get hung up at point B for various reasons, some logical and some moral, but mostly because of Shroedinger again. People are almost afraid to observe the B qubit because they don’t want the wave function to collapse either to a 0 or a 1, since both choices are deemed unpalatable. A lot of people who claim to be agnostics don’t take the position so much because they don’t know, but because they don’t want to know, sometimes desperately so.
Because if it turns out to be a 0, then we really are the slaves of our selfish genes, and there’s no basis for morality other than various forms of tribalism.
And because if it turns out to be a 1, then you have swallow a whole bunch of flim-flam that goes with it. Or do you?
Let me admit to you that I came at this from the opposite direction. I grew up in a religious culture, and I had to learn to “unswallow” an awful lot of stuff in order to strip my faith down to these two bits.
I tried to strip it down further, but I couldn’t, because God told me: “That’s far enough. I already flipped your faith bits to 1, because I’m a better Observer than you are. You are Shroedinger’s cat in reverse–you were dead spiritually, but I’ve already examined the qubits for you, and I think they’re both 1. Who are you to disagree with me?”
So, who am I to disagree with God? 🙂 If he really is the Author of the universe, he’s allowed to observe the qubits, and he’s probably even allowed to cheat occasionally and force a few bit flips to make it a better story. That’s how Authors work. Whether or not they have thumbs…
Once you see the universe from that point of view, many arguments fade into unimportance, such as Hawking’s argument that the universe fuzzed into existence at the beginning, and therefore there was no creator. But it’s also true that the Lord of the Rings fuzzed into existence, and that doesn’t mean it doesn’t have a creator. It just means that the creator doesn’t create on the same schedule as the creature’s.
If God is creating the universe sideways like an Author, then the proper place to look for the effects of that is not at the fuzzy edges, but at the heart of the story. And I am personally convinced that Jesus stands at the heart of the story. The evidence is there if you care to look, and if you don’t get distracted by the claims of various people who have various agendas to lead you in every possible direction, and if you don’t fall into the trap of looking for a formula rather than looking for God as a person. All human institutions are fallible, and will create a formula for you to determine whether you belong to the tribe or not. Very often these formulas are called doctrines and traditions and such, and there is some value in them, as there is some value in any human culture. But they all kind of miss the point.
“Systematic theology” is an oxymoron. God is not a system. Christians are fond of asking: “What would Jesus do in this situation?” Unfortunately, they very rarely come up with the correct answer, which is: “Something unexpected!” If the Creator really did write himself into his own story, that’s what we ought to expect to see. Creative solutions.
And this creativity is intended to be transitive. We are expected to be creative. And we’re expected to help others be creative.
And that leads us back (finally) to the last part of your question, how all this relates to Perl.
Perl is obviously my attempt to help other people be creative. In my little way, I’m sneakily helping people understand a bit more about the sort of people God likes.
Going further, we have the notion that a narrative should be defined by its heart and not by its borders. That ties in with my linguistic notions that things ought to be defined by prototype rather than by formula. It ties in to my refusal to define who is or is not a “good” Perl programmer, or who exactly is or isn’t a member of the “Perl community”. These things are all defined by their centers, not by their peripheries.
The philosophy of TMTOWTDI (“There’s more than one way to do it.”) is a direct result of observing that the Author of the universe is humble, and chooses to exercise control in subtle rather than in heavy-handed ways. The universe doesn’t come with enforced style guidelines. Creative people will develop style on their own. Those are the sort of people that will make heaven a nice place.
And finally, there is the underlying conviction that, if you define both science and religion from their true centers, they cannot be in confict. So despite all the “religiosity” of Perl culture, we also believe in the benefits of computer science. I didn’t put lexicals and closures into Perl5 just because I thought people would start jumping up and down and shouting “Hallelujah!” (Which happens, but that’s not why I did it.)
LARGE CHURCHES. WHAT IS IT?
Most pastors introduce themselves by saying, “I pastor a church consisting of 2000 members in so and so place and in so and so country”.
It almost sounds like they are elated over and measure their ministerial success by the fact that they have a large congregation. Is such elation and measurement of success Biblically appropriate? Let us examine that by the following illustrations.
Illustration 1:
If a person appears for a semester exam and fails to pass in all the papers, he gets arrears. He has to appear for the exam again during the next semester. Thus, the next time he has to write 6 papers plus the 6 papers which he failed in the previous exam. What happens, if for instance, he has failed on all the 12 papers and abandons his studies? Wouldn’t he be despised by the society? Yes, he would be.
Illustration 2:
Imagine a mother who has five adult children who are 30 years of age and above and who are unemployed and unmarried. If for instance the mother spoon-feeds those five adult children, how would it look like? Like a family? Certainly not. It would look like a lunatic asylum.
Illustration 3:
Do you know that mother Eagles dismantle and destroy their nest, which they themselves had built with pains? Why do they destroy their nest? In order to train their baby eaglets to fly!!
APPLICATION OF THE ABOVE ILLUSTRATIONS:
1. Contrary to the above illustrations, most pastors strangely boast about large congregations, which are filled with spiritually older Christians, but little do they realize it as a shame. They do not visualize that such a large congregation is just an arrears & backlog of their incomplete works.
2. They do not visualize their congregation as a nest full of grown up eaglets unable to fly and hunt on their own.
3. They do not visualize their congregation as a house full of 30-year-old adult children who are unemployed and unmarried.
4. Instead they consider such congregations as proof of their success!!
REMEMBER YOU ARE A PRIEST. ENTER THE MOST HOLY PLACE. INTERCEDE FOR OTHERS. DO NOT LEAN ON PASTORS. PREACH THE WORD ON SUNDAYS.
A few Illustrations winded up with conclusions and applications that means nothing !!!
Let me explain:
DO NOT LEAN ON PASTORS
First of all, pastors are full time consecrated priests unlike us but we are also priest…. but again… you say not to depend on them. OK agreed.
Secondly, a contradiction here in ur statement…
INTERCEDE FOR OTHERS.
So u want us to be a part of those priests and intercede for others (who are these ‘OTHERS’ when your message, “not to depend on pastors” are for all???)
PREACH THE WORD ON SUNDAYS. (I percieve it as “rather than going to church and listen to others who preach”)
If this is your message for all, and if everybody preaches, who will then listen?? “You mean to preach to non-believers and athiests??” Then my question is to you… How many times have you preached in open???
Do you know a fact that to be preaching like that in the open needs permission from the goverment?? YOu need to be belonging to some licenced or registered missionary?? And that when you complete these goverment formalities you need to have an identity???
And again you are against identities… What do you exaclty mean to express?? Do you have a clear picture in your mind of what exaclty you want to convey??
This is a kind of philosophy, which suits your personality, is taken subtly from the scriptures. Read them completely and fully, percieve it and follow it. Dont you please mislead others by telling them not to go to church on Sundays…
Jesus is coming soon, the more you seek for the word of God, and the more you hunger and thirst for His Word, the more you’ll WANT to go to church.
DIFFERENT TYPES OF MOTHERS. WHAT ARE THEY?
There are different types of mothers in this world. However, predominantly, they can be classified into two types:
A) Those that belong to the first type not only feed their daughters with food but also train them to “cook” food and “serve” food to others.
B) Those that belong to the other type feed their daughters and expect their daughters to be with them always. They do this in order to feel secure. They are never concerned about the following:
1. That their daughters should marry.
2. That their daughters should give birth to children.
3. That their daughters should feed their children.
TO WHAT TYPE DID THE APOSLTES IN THE BIBLE BELONG TO?
1. They commanded the Christians to exhort and instruct each other as per Colossians 3:16.
2. They expected the Christians to grow up to be teachers and not expect to be spoon fed as per Heb 5:12.
3. They expected the Christians to prepare spiritual food by depending on the Holy Spirit as per 1 John 2:27.
Thus, the apostles of the Bible not only fed the Christians with spiritual food but also exhorted them to prepare spiritual food and serve it to others as well. Thus, they belonged to the first type of motherhood.
C) However, most of the present day pastors exhibit the mentality of the second type of mothers. They expect their church members to be around them until they die. They do not realize that the members have married Christ. Thus, they are never concerned about the following:
1. That their church members should learn to cook spiritual food.
2. That their church members should develop a relationship with their husband who is Jesus and thus give birth to new souls.
3. That their church members should start feeding the new souls whom they have led into salvation.
Thus, the goal of most pastors is to enslave people to themselves and use their finances to promote their denominations.
HI Rachel Varghese
Please find below to find perfect pastors in this world.
http://www.tsbalan.com/
http://www.tsbalan.com/youtube.html
Hi! RachelChitra,
Greetings to you, I’m a staunch anti TPM. I just went through your script. where you have attacked the TPM doctrines but one thing that i noted was you have sidelined in all your statement- i mean i found more of Feminism added. I don’t know if it was because U yourself being a female..err whatsoever. I wished a better script. It is really good to stand against the doctrines of man influenced by devil than stand against God & His Word. My humble prayer for you is that you don’t go away from God & His Word just because of some foolish doctrines of TPM.
May Our dear Lord Jesus Christ richly bless You!
With lots of love & prayer,
Joe
SPIRITUAL TITLES
Jesus commanded not to call spiritual leaders using titles as we see in Matt 23: 8-10 which says, “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called ‘teacher,’ for you have one Teacher, the Christ.”
Why did Jesus say this? Because God’s plan as per Exodus 19:6 was for every Christian to become a Priest as per the following verse.
Exodus 19:6; “And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou (Moses) shalt speak unto the children of Israel .”
Remember, the call to be a Priest was given not just to the Levites but also to all the 12 tribes of Israel.
However, that plan could not be fulfilled only until after Jesus tore the veil by His blood and opened a way for us to the Father in heaven.
And now, we all know that Jesus has already done that. He has opened the way to His Father.
Therefore, every one of us now has access to the Most Holy Place where the Father dwells as per Hebrews 10:19 and Hebrews 4:16. Remember, even Aaron’s sons who were Priests were never allowed to enter the Most Holy Place.
So all Christians including the pastors are brothers and priests. There is no difference between clergy and lay.
Nevertheless, strangely and highly ignorant of the above scriptural truth, the Pentecostal pastors advertise themselves as Pastors and Chief Pastors etc. God gave pastors but never allowed anyone to use such titles in their magazines or cassettes.
By craving for titles, they have forced & threatened the Christians to address themselves as Pastors, which has now become a cult. Thus, they violate the command of Jesus Christ.
Hence, in obedience to the command of Jesus let us call them as brothers rather than Pastors. The Pastors do not want you to know that you have access to the Most Holy Place. Why? because they want to act as middle agents and take your money.
Remember, we all are brothers and priests. Only Jesus is our High Priest.
HOW DOES SATAN TRAP WORKERS?
If a worker teaches and trains the believers to depend on the Holy Spirit then the believers learn to start depending on the Holy Spirit.
A believer who has learnt to depend on the Holy Spirit will not depend on pastors wholly for spiritual food and encouragement.
However, what happens currently is that believers depend on workers and their Sunday morning sermons and bible studies. The believers find it very difficult to receive the spiritual food from the Holy Spirit directly as per 1 John 2:27.
It is this dependency on workers that has become very easy for satan to deceive the believers with false doctrines. All satan has to do is to induce false doctrines in the mind of the worker. Then when the worker starts to preach that false doctrine all the worker-dependent believers believe that false doctrine to be a word from God.
The next question is how do false doctrines enter the mind of workers? Workers who call themselves as full time pastors start focusing on believers for money and not on God. They start to feel insecure because they do not have a job of their own as Paul the apostle did.
They pretend not to ask for money openly but in their hearts, they start lusting for the tithe money of the believers. They also cover up their lust for money by dressing themselves in white clothing displaying a false humility.
Once they have started focusing on money in their hearts they start to cling on to the believer. How do they do that? They do that by making the believers to cling on to them.
How do they make the believers to cling on to them? By doing the following:
1. By preaching that they are melchizedek priests unbiblically and as to how great their calling is.
2. By preaching about the great sacrifices they did to become a pastor.
3. By preaching about their greatness of being a celibate worker.
4. By speaking ill of other denominations.
5. By creating a set of false doctrines just to show themselves to be superior.
Thus, instead of glorifying Christ they have ended up glorifying themselves just to enslave the believers to themselves. All for money!!
1. I hear the Savior say,
“Thy strength indeed is small;
Child of weakness, watch and pray,
Find in Me thine all in all.”
* Refrain:
Jesus paid it all,
All to Him I owe;
Sin had left a crimson stain,
He washed it white as snow.
2. For nothing good have I
Whereby Thy grace to claim;
I’ll wash my garments white
In the blood of Calv’ry’s Lamb.
3. And now complete in Him,
My robe, His righteousness,
Close sheltered ’neath His side,
I am divinely blest.
4. Lord, now indeed I find
Thy pow’r, and Thine alone,
Can change the leper’s spots
And melt the heart of stone.
5. When from my dying bed
My ransomed soul shall rise,
“Jesus died my soul to save,”
Shall rend the vaulted skies.
6. And when before the throne
I stand in Him complete,
I’ll lay my trophies down,
All down at Jesus’ feet.
1. I have decided to follow Jesus;
I have decided to follow Jesus;
I have decided to follow Jesus;
No turning back, no turning back.
2. Though I may wonder, I still will follow;
Though I may wonder, I still will follow;
Though I may wonder, I still will follow;
No turning back, no turning back.
3. The world behind me, the cross before me;
The world behind me, the cross before me;
The world behind me, the cross before me;
No turning back, no turning back.
4. Though none go with me, still I will follow;
Though none go with me, still I will follow;
Though none go with me, still I will follow;
No turning back, no turning back.
5. Will you decide now to follow Jesus?
Will you decide now to follow Jesus?
Will you decide now to follow Jesus?
No turning back, no turning back.
May God bless richly you and yours!!
Follow Jesus not TPM and TPM workers.
TPM creates false “pet” doctrines to create an identity for themselves.
Trust in the Holy Spirit.
Hiii,
I like you christian guys struggling to establish their church is true. I thought christianity has same doctrines & bible. now i understood you are cheaters. you dnt have an identification yourself den why you are coming to convert hindus. please leave us. we have an identity & a great culture. we are not ethists. dont spoil our great culture & religion.
Jai Ram
Firstly Susan and Rachel was holding on to one subject… “criticism of tpm, believers and its workers… dont trust them, they are thieves etc etc…”
Secondly… by debating and debating.. she reallised that all the pentacostals churches has some or the other things that are negative. So now she says.. DONT GO TO CHURCH…
May be in the near future…. as per Word says, the knowledge will increase… and out of excess debating and open-mindedness, she would say, “Gos doesnt Exist…”.. This is sure to be a possibility….
BEWARE FRIENDS.. these are not the discussions encouraged by the Holy Spirit.
Bro Ram…
Gospel is God’s search for Man… where as religion in Man’s search for God… Jesus came, died and got resurrected on the third day !!! THIS IS A FACT… !!! His birth, life and death was unique. And He’s going to come back very soon in the clouds…
A day has to come when “Every knee shall bow, every tongue shall confess that Jesus is the Lord.” Dont be discouraged… if you really call upon Him diligently he will hear you and will answer you… Go through the testimony of “Pandita Ramabai”, “Vaman Rao Tilak”, “Pandit Ram Prakash Sharma (Born in Fatehpur Jail during India’s freedom struggle, Former MP, Bollywood actor, a successful Manager in the corporate world with Dalmiyas… and who was raised by Gandhiji himself)”, Sadhu Sunder Singh, Bhakth Singh, Sis Baljeet Kaur, and many more such Indians whom God called and seperated from this world for His sake.
May God Bless You !!!
Bro Ram,
Following is the Testimony of ‘Pandit Dharm Prakash Sharma’
http://www.sermon.net/sermoninfo.php?clientid=12756&sermonid=134080
Jim
Dear Jim,
You seems to be a good christian. I am not a hindu fanatic but religious. I hate people who convert for any financial or other benefits. Im not against conversion. But how can a hindu tell an other religion is better when he is unaware of his own religion. First let him know what is hinduism, let him read our Holy books.
I have read most of the Holy books including Quran & Bible. Of that I liked the most is our vedas & new testament in Bible. But my dear friend tell me honestly how many christians are following it. I guess maximum 1%. So then why can’t you first preach within your community before preaching others. First of all, show in your life, then in your family, then in your community. If so, others will come to you.
Moreover most of the christians are not following Indian culture. They are following western culture especially girls. Girls flirting with guys, exposing themselves etc. We can’t tolerate this. You will call me fanatic for saving this great culture & religion.
As Gandhiji told I like Christ but hate christians as they are unlike their Christ.
Vande Matheram
Ram
Whether you beleive or not JESUS IS LORD
Brother Ram,
You will call me fanatic for saving this great culture & religion.
Why should I call you a fanatic for saying this?? because wht you say is right… India is indeed unique.. with great culture and religion.. but I told you what religion is… Its Man’s search of God… Statements like “All the religion leads to same God, all the religions are different path leading to same God and blah blah blah…
But Gospel is Man’s Search for God… Christ LIVES today and thats a FACT….!!! And you must reallise the judgement of the Lord will begin from the temple of the Lord (Church).. and its mentioned in the Bible… If Christians are not living a life Christ-Like, they will be judged…
Bu the fact remains the same.. that Christ LIVES today and no man in the history of mankind has come upto the expectation of all the prophesies concerning the Son of God (Jesus), which was made around 800 yrs before His birth… His birth, life and death was exacltly as per these prophesies…
And He’s coming back very soon. Dont look at Chriitians.. Look unto Christ and follow Him…
YOU MUST READ “My Encounter with TRUTH” by Pandit Dharm Prakash Sharma, who was a Bibile burning activist as he considered this as a religion of white-people… I’m very sure its going to be a great eye-opener for you concerning Chritianity…
Regards,
Jim.
Sorry for the mistake here from me… But Gospel is Man’s Search for God
Actually its “Gospel is God’s search for lost man”
-Pandit Dharm Prakash Sharma..
Truth sounds bitter for TPM pleasers like Jim.
This site is not for evangelism or gospel. Instead the purpose of this site is to discuss about TPM and its false doctrines.
For evangelism and gospel there are many sites. You can go there.
TPM talks more about sanctification but still is unable to sanctify itself from all the false doctrines.
What is left of TPM is the “white dress” and the heart filled with all worker-glorifying false doctrines.
Dear Friends, Sanctify yourself and preach the gospel in the villages. That is why God baptises believers with the Holy Spirit. To be witnesses all over the world.
Just read one of the thousands of mails from a christian (already a blogger on Feb 22, 2009) about TPM:
Hi ! Suz,
Long since communicated with you. Thanx for those couple of info that you send, also i’ve been reading & knowing a lot about this cult…Hey ! i’d want to know if this is true that TPM’er dont ever Evangelize instead preach to the saved & baptised only.
secondly, they hunt for souls from other churches & preach not the Gospel but the TPM doctrines & rebaptise them saying U can go 2 Zion from here.
IS IT TRUE ??
To my knowledge i have never come across any of those white robed Evangelising in Orrisa, Bihar, J& K etc….
reply me soon,
Joe
Dear Susan,
TPM don’t evangelise, Why because
We are interested in quality and not quantity.
“Present ever man perfect in christ Jesus.”
Yes, TPM is interested in quality of believers to the extent they are enslaved to TPM and their false doctrines.
For evangelism miracles must be seen. That needs the gifts of the Holy Spirit. TPM does not do evangelism because they do not have these. They can only preach in volumes!! And they call themselves as apostles!! That is strange.
Apostles went around preaching the gospel with signs wonders and miracles!! They were not sitting and conducting marriage ceremonies for believers!!
Even a sunday school student knows that 1 Corinthians 7 was written for christian believers. But TPM thinks that 1 cor 7 was written for workers and goes around stipulating celibacy for workers!! Very funny indeed!!
The author of TPM “pet” doctrines like celibacy are founded by Pas. Alwin who was excommunicated from TPM for adultery.
Know the truth guys!
This site is not for evangelism or gospel. Instead the purpose of this site is to discuss about TPM and its false doctrines.
This is not a site… but a blog. whatsoever… So you are telling me the purpose of this blog…
Let me ask you one thing.. Whats the purpose of you being YOU?? balbbering around?? You very well know that you are doing Devil’s work by discussing these things due to which many souls like Ram Rao are getting confused…
What will yo answer the Lord when He asks you how many souls did you win??? You’ll tell Him, “I spend all my life in accusing and blaming other Christian denominations thinking that I was acting as so called eye opener” ??
Turm to the Lord Susan… its high time… YOU HAVE NO AUTHORITY TO JUDGE WHOEVER TPM IS… AS LONG AS YOU ARE A MERE HUMAN BEING JUST LIKE ANY OTHER ONE… LEAVE THIS JUDGEMENT JOB TO THE LORD…
Truth sounds bitter for TPM pleasers like Jim.
I know Susan… that truth is bitter for you that you are promoting devil’s work and that lucifer is using you very efficiently as his tool to spread bitterness, confusions, hatred, backsliding, divisions, and keeping GOSPEL AWAY FROM the gentiles… NOW THAT IS TRUTH.. IS THAT BITTER FOR YOU??? IT IS.
Even a sunday school student knows that 1 Corinthians 7 was written for christian believers.
David Raja bhai…
So who says its not written for believers??? Read the first verse… “It is good for a man not to marry”… is that clear?? IT IS GOOD. So they chose the good part… Again read 6th and ,7th verse
“6I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.”
So its not a commandment.. so whos stopping you.. GO MARRY BOSS… And if you want to preach gospel in the village… go and preach boss.. who has stopped you??
But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.”
But there are BELIEVERS who has got the gift of remaining celibates like St. Paul and Jesus himself…
Was Jesus married?? NO… whts ur problem if anyone has chosen to live like HIM??? Just because people like you cant be like them, finding faults with them??? [Unless u blive in Dan Brown’s tale]
The author of TPM “pet” doctrines like celibacy are founded by Pas. Alwin who was excommunicated from TPM for adultery.
you are talking bout Allwyn-the fallen angel?? Do you know that the books written by him is still taught in bible colleges where your foolish pastors go and analyse (not study) God for 3 yrs doing thier so called BTh???
For evangelism miracles must be seen. That needs the gifts of the Holy Spirit. TPM does not do evangelism because they do not have these
I give a laugh on this.. How often have u been to a tpm church.. Do u even know the volumes of miracles that takes place in the church other than a volumes of preaching?? The difference is that we dont go around boasting and blabbering around like your churches do..
And you are talking about the gift of Holy Spirit?? Do you even know the 7 types of gifts that you can recieve from the Lord?? Have you ever even talked to a tpm pastor about these?? They are not like your pastors who dont know how to “Walk the Talk, who preach something and act other thing… Who clap hands, crack vulgar jokes and laugh till tears roll down their eyes (I have seen them)…
They go to villages because they get huge money from abroad.. you know they cant ignore such huge money.. they keep the best things for themselves and give the worst things (clothes, grocery, utencils etc) to the tribal people. THEY EVEN GIVE THEM MONEY AND BUY THEM INTO YOUR FOLD…
WE NEVER DO THAT.. WE PREACH.. THAT WE MAY PRESENT EVERYMAN PERFECT IN CHRIST JESUS.
David…. You say we dont evangelise? do you know we had a time when we had no churches in North India?? There are now more than 25 churches in Mumbai center alone… All Gujratis, Marathis, Sindhis, Kashmiris, Locals, Bengalis, and Hindis have found the New Life in Christ… !!!!
AND YOU EXPLAIN US THE MEANING OF “EVANGELISATION”… Pitty on such perception of yours David..
I pitty on your perception…
Hi ! Suz
To say that “one of the thousands who mailed me”, this is clear that Joe doesnt even know Susan in person… The salutation here “Hi ! Suz” itself reflects his character… as if Susan is His…. whatever !!!
To my knowledge i have never come across any of those white robed Evangelising in Orrisa, Bihar, J& K etc….
I have just one answer to this Joe…. tht in these states there are so many churches that there is an acute shortage of ministers to take care of these churches… Many from the backward classes and tribal people have accepted Christ as their Saviour and have turned to the Lord and are regular believers now…
“WE PREACH THAT WE MAY PRESENT EVERY MAN PERFECT IN CHRIST JESUS”
Hi All,
I have gone to many countries in the world , never come accrossed a chruch with this concecrated doctrine.
Churches nowadays is started with a business mentality.
Our church workers have sacrificed there lives. Left father, mother, brother, sister , relatives, no job , no bank account, no assests , no wife, no children, nothing in the world.
Can you live like this for one day in your life. This is a gift not possible by everyone.
You have everything beside and behind and mocking at people who left everything for God.
This is an evil spirit spoiling your life and character. I have seen many families and people, you speak again the workers have been destroyed . This will become a curse into the family.
Please pray to get deliverance from this bad spirit, which will ruin your life.
You must think that they are human being like us, they are not angels from heaven. Everyone has got there own weakness.
Ofcourse, I also know , but we cannot speak against them. They are also bound to follow the rules of the church.
The standard for your life must be based on bible and not on any human being or any other churches.
Speak and collect good things for others, rather than having a contrart spirit, Which you are not going to get benefit in any way .
Each one has got different gifts starting from evangelism to apostlelic . Everything ministry is important . In fact, evangelism is more important otherwise how the people in the world will get saved. We became christians because of the missionary from overseas.
continue…..
TPM promotes celibate worker’s intercession so that they can feed their stomach and have A/c cars and a carpet floored toilet.
In Chennai TPM has just 21 churches in total. But other Pentecostal churches have 2,500 churches in Chennai alone. TPM came to Chennai in 1945 but other Pentecostal churches came after 1975.
Thus, TPM is ineffective. Why? Because they do not teach the priesthood of believers as per 1 Peter 2:5,9. Instead, they keep bragging about their celibate consecration and their pride. God resists the proud.
Do not be slaves to TPM workers. Instead, enter the Most Holy Place with confidence as per Hebrews 4:16 where the Father of Jesus dwells and talk to Him. Jesus tore the veil as per Heb 10:19 and He opened the way to the Most Holy Place. Brethren, you are better than Aaron.
So do have relationship to God directly rather than fall in to the lie of TPM workers who make you dependent on them.
Jesus did not die to give you middle agents. He died to give you His Father. Do not trust in Irumbuliyur convention just like catholics trust Velankanni.
What Susan says is true.
TPM is teaching you to choose the best part of remaining celibates. Which is why they get government licenses to conduct hundreds of marriages in “faithhomes” (marriage homes”. LOL!!
On the one side TPM says that marriage takes a man away from love for God and on the other side they conduct thousands of marriages. Helps to choose better?
In Chennai TPM has just 21 churches in total. But other Pentecostal churches have 2,500 churches in Chennai alone. TPM came to Chennai in 1945 but other Pentecostal churches came after 1975.
Why this competitions David ???? Where in Bible its mentioned to compete within the house… ??? When the Desciples came to Jesus and told Him that there are other people casting out demons in Your name.. what shall we do to them??? Jesus said: “Those who are not against us are with us”
tpm is not into some competitions…. so just forget about comparing other thousands of diluted and corrupted pentacostal churches (rather business houses) with just one tpm… and even if its into competition, its like a honour to be tpm on one side and a thousands on the other side…
Thus, TPM is ineffective. Why? Because they do not teach the priesthood of believers as per 1 Peter 2:5,9.
TPM is very much effective… We very much teach this doctrine… Who told you we dont?? The believers who acquire preisthood as per I Peter 2:5-9 are those believers who get the calling to be seperated from this world to serve God…
Instead, enter the Most Holy Place with confidence as per Hebrews 4:16 where the Father of Jesus dwells and talk to Him.
“Walk the Talk” David…. I wonder if YOU have ever done that…Scripture says that even I know about it.. every Christian knows about it… Theres no need to emphazise it. What matters is wheather you are bringing into ACTION what you PREACH… This is the difference between our pastors and others. You go to some Bible college and study God as you study physics or Chemestry and analyse Him rationally causing an increase in knowledge and intellect which in turn brings pride within you… But reflects NO Christ-likeness in your pastors…. Theres a difference between KNOWING God and ANALYSING God. The former part reflects the humbleness and meekness as of Moses which the Word demands from all of us… The latter part reflects your arrogance and competitiveness towards the kingdom of God…You dont really need to be a part of Bible college to know God… All you need is to be on the knees and pray with continued Bible reading.. God opens your mind of understanding and He speaks to you…
So LEARN TO BRING INTO ACTION WHAT YOU PREACH….
Do not trust in Irumbuliyur convention just like catholics trust Velankanni.
Let me explain this to you with a practical example from my life… Now I’m a musician and play the guitar… which needs to be tuned to perfection after every performance… This is very important because the guitar cannot get tuned of its own.. I have to engage myself in tuning it… In the other words “I need to SET my guitar”…. Now this is what happens in our conventions year after year… We go there to GET our hearts SET or FIRM or TUNED back to the firmness and perfection of the WORD…
We need grace every day to survive in this perishing world… Does any other pastor from your church get up early in the morning, take the names of every sinlgle believers in the Church and praise for them ??? Now this might not be important for you as long as you understand the depth of this concept.
Dorothy,
What Susan says is true.
Even lucifer says she is right… That doesnt make her right.. so open your eyes and ears of understanding. Jesus said : “Those who are not against us are with us”conduct hundreds of marriages in “faithhomes” (marriage homes”. LOL!! LOL?? It means Laugh out loud?? Your remark here reflects the scornful spirit thats within you Dorothy… Humble yourself and know God.. For those who know God would never make such scornful remarks for sure..
On the one side TPM says that marriage takes a man away from love for God and on the other side they conduct thousands of marriages. Helps to choose better?
Theres nothing as one side and the other side here.. Its all bout gifts that you recieve from God. Marriage NEVER takes you away from God… and tpm doesnt teach anything contradictory like that… We have strong principles and doctrines which we cannot compromise and since we cannot compromise, all the other Pentacostal churches hates us.. Thats why even the Word says so…
Hi all,
i want to ask a question to Jim? R u a Christ-ian? If yes u will have a Christ like character, I’snt it a shame on you to say that silly statement, The salutation here “Hi ! Suz” itself reflects his character… as if Susan is His…. whatever !!!
Hey! she’s my sister,.. MAN! i can call her Suz, or Suzie…Why does that hurt u?? If your mind goes that way ..err…i dont care.Is this wat is taught in ur TPM?? From the start i have noticed u have been senselessly Accusing and Abusing the owner of this Blog…is this according to the Word of Christ?? She has in fact many times requested..Pls dont insult me…Do u think quoting a scripture verse just for the sake of your happiness pleases God, no matter if any one is hurt? Never replying to the point, which has always been corrected by the moderator. Beating around the bush..Is this the teachings of your church??Doctrines,i mean.When u dont know to love with the love of Christ..This is wat happens,U reflect it in words & deeds.
Again..i have been blessed by this blog…Lot of truth have been exposed Which no one neither Jim or any one biased to this sect can ever deny!!
For all who follow the doctrines of the church pushing aside the doctrines of the Holy Spirit. I would say,Rev 18:4 – Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. (KJV)
Amen!!be it so Lord..
God bless our moderator.
Jim,
I have just one answer to this Joe…. tht in these states there are so many churches that there is an acute shortage of ministers to take care of these churches… Many from the backward classes and tribal people have accepted Christ as their Saviour and have turned to the Lord and are regular believers now…Totally against the Scriptures where Jesus says “Harvest is plenteous but laborers are few” Are u trying to be wiser than Jesus??
“WE PREACH THAT WE MAY PRESENT EVERY MAN PERFECT IN CHRIST JESUS”
Wat do u preach to be perfect ?? ur cultist doctrines??
God bless our moderator.
after saying all these… u say.. God bless the moderator… instead of saying “May God open her eyes and ears of understanding”… For unless she believes in One, she cant be blessed…. We are all children of God… for the concept of “Existence of God” is so simple for a child to understand in just 3 steps:
1: “For this is how God loved the world: He gave his unique Son so that everyone who believes in him might not be lost but have eternal life. John 3:16
2: This Christ gave His life on the cross as a sacrifice for the sin of the entire mankind so that you and me may be saved.
3: He (Christ) is coming very soon to gather His children and we all must be ready to get raptured.
For the moderator, she says, she needs proof, she wants God to reveal Himself to her (For this atleast she needs to believe theres One — 1st Step of faith). She says God cannot reveal Himself as He said that this truth is only for the poor and illetrate people and not for those who really search for the truth—
WELL… You can’t please God the way Enoch did without some faith, because those who come to God must (minimally) believe that:
A) God exists, and
B) God is good to people who really look for him.
That’s it. The “good news” is so simple that a child can understand it, and so deep that a philosopher (moderator) CANT. The Word demands our hearts to be as of a child to get an entry into the Kingdom of Heaven and not of a Philosopher.. “Blessed are the poor in spirit……. ”
Do u think quoting a scripture verse just for the sake of your happiness pleases God, no matter if any one is hurt?
The word of the Lord is as a two-edged sword… I dont quote the scripture for my happiness… but THAT IS THE TRUTH… Is it bitter??? may be IT IS… for YOU. I cant please human (you or the moderator or anyone) for the sake of human emotions. This would mean that if your hindu friend (an idolator)brings pooja-prasad for you, you’ll have it “just for the sake of his/her happiness”, ignoring the happiness of your Heavenly Father…
This is ONE of the MANY doctrines which tpm doesnt compromise with any other churches or its doctrines…
Totally against the Scriptures where Jesus says “Harvest is plenteous but laborers are few” Are u trying to be wiser than Jesus??
How was it totally against?? I mean seriously.. what I said was exaclty as per Jesus said?? Didnt you read it properly??…. there are so many churches and less ministers to handle them… And the people are increasing on everyday basis and the workers are less… I mean… How do you percieve it??
Wat do u preach to be perfect ?? ur cultist doctrines??
I thought you read Bible… nyways read it fully u’ll know what we preach… .. It is Col 1:28
“Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. (Colossians 1:28).
And Mr. Joe… One question for you… Are you a Christian and if yes, which church do YOU go to?? Tell me and I’ll give you the fortaste of cultist doctrines, and corruption which takes place there… (but u c… i’ll never do that cos that would erase away the difference between a tpm church goer and people like you)
Hey! she’s my sister,.. MAN! i can call her Suz, or Suzie…Why does that hurt u?? If your mind goes that way ..err…i dont care.Is this wat is taught in ur TPM??
YES…!!! that is taught in tpm…..> to use “complete salutations” for any young woman in the church or outside as “sister”.. “Sister Susan” and young or elder men as “Brother Joe” !!! NO shortcuts, if you really had Christ living in you, you would have never made a salutation of that kind.. even if that is OK for Susan, atleast on the public blogs or forum like these…
This is again ONE of the MANY doctrines which tpm doesnt compromise with any other churches or its doctrines…
“Walk the Talk” David…. I wonder if YOU have ever done that…
Rachel… What so wrong bout the above statement?? Is it bitter in any way?? Theres no truth that is sweeter than “Jesus is coming Soon” !!!
I have been reading the comments and the views and counter-views with a lot of interest, being extremely familiar with the TPM Church. Its teachings & doctrines are extreme and difficult. I may not agree with some of them, but what attracts me to the TPM Church is the love and dedication of the consecrated servants of God. Many of them were people like you and me with jobs and a future in the secular world, with the opportunity to marry, have their own families, earn money etc, but sacrificed their all to serve God their entire lives. It is a difficult decision which they have taken. They spend a great portion of their day in prayer and meditating on the Word of God. Most of them (there are black sheep in every organisation) are full of love. As a member of this Church, they have been upholding me with their love & fellowship. I can share any problem with them, and can expect them to sincerely pray and uphold me. To live selflessly for others is a nature that is found very rarely in this materialistic world. I have found it in the average TPM servant of God. I realise that this is a quality that God has placed in them. They have provided me with the spiritual food that I require, the guidance that I need and the spiritual satisfaction that has never made me to want to leave them.
I understand that Susan and many others contributing to this blog, have an in-depth knowledge of TPM, and hence will agree with what I claim.
I faced a death inducing sickness a few years back, and underwent a major surgery. Though the TPM doctrine does not promote taking medicines or surgery, there were many TPM workers who were fasting and praying for me. A few of them were in the hospital as I was having my surgery praying for me on their knees. I have seen God’s love in them. I may not agree with all their interpretations of the scriptures & their doctrines, but the God’s love that I see in them has compelled me to maintain a close fellowship with them.
The foremost desire is to do God’s will, while here on earth, and go to heaven after my time here is over. Mistakes are found in all organisations and churches (including TPM), as they are made by man and run by men. I also realise that I am not perfect to judge others. I would like to remain in the organisation / church which would help me to achieve my objective /desire. With whatever knowledge that I have, I believe being in TPM will best help me to achieve it.
An elephant can be described in many ways, depending on the angle from which you view it. I would like to be positive about the TPM Church, and look at its strong points, all the while placing my eyes firmly on my God and His precious Word.
If I look at the negatives of TPM, and some of its difficult (maybe erroneous teachings!!!) I can easily leave this Church like Susan, Rachel & David have done. But what is the alternative? Is there anything else that can be better? I seriously doubt it. I would like to continue sailing in this ship to the other shore, unless I find a better / faster one.
Love to all.
Susan, Rachel & David,
I can undestand the doctrinal differences that you have with what TPM preaches. I have some of the same doubts & questions that you have. Taken as an entire package, have you found a better place than TPM to direct a person toward heaven, and prepare him / her for His coming? Is there an alternative better than TPM? Please let me know.
I don’t believe that being a member of a particular Church like TPM can take one to heaven. God who looks at our hearts has His own standards of judging & evaluating man. The emphasis on santification and holiness that TPM promotes gives an individual a better chance to strive towards holiness, and obtain mercy from God, which alone can take us there.
I may know more skeletons than what you may know about many things / persons in TPM. But I also know many good things in TPM, and the number of sincere and devout people here. I would like to place my mind on what is pure & good, ignore the bad & unacceptable, humble myself and somehow maintain peace with God, lead others to this peace, and be prepared to hear the trumpet when it shall sound on that day.
Love,
Danny
TPM SHOULD HATE LUST FOR MONEY
INSTEAD TPM SHOULD TRAIN THE BELIEVERS TO DO THE FOLLOWING:
1. TO LISTEN TO THE VOICE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
2. TO LEARN TO SPEAK TO THE HOLY SPIRIT.
3. TO LEARN TO ENTER THE MOST HOLY PLACE WHERE THE FATHER OF JESUS WAITS LONGINGLY.
4. TO LOVE THE FATHER AND ASK FOR THEIR NEEDS DIRECTLY.
5. TO HEAR THE MESSAGES DIRECTLY FROM THE HOLY SPIRIT.
6. TO SHARE THE MESSAGE WITH THOSE WHO NEED COMFORT.
7. TO GO TO VILLAGES AND PREACH THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST.
8. TO KNOW THAT THEY ARE PRIESTS WITH A CONFIDENT ACCESS TO THE MOST HOLY PLACE WHICH EVEN AARON FEARED TO DO.
9. TO TRUST JESUS AND NOT TRUST THE MIDDLE AGENCY OF TPM WORKERS .
INSTEAD OF LUSTING FOR THE BELIEVER’S MONEY AND KEEP THEM AS “DEPENDENT BABIES”, WHY NOT TRAIN THEM ON THE ABOVE? REVIVAL WILL COME IF THIS IS DONE.
I read the posts here and the posts of Rachel and Susan was really inspiring.
It is true that we in TPM need depend excessively on workers for everything like prayer, word of comfort, intercession.
I think we need to grow to depend on the Holy Spirit more. I learnt something.
Babies need nursing mothers when their biological mother is dead. Similarly, Danny, whoever he is, seems to ask for another pastor from another denomination to suckle upon as an alternative to TPM.
Hope Danny realises that the Holy Spirit is the best alternative to TPM as per 1 John 2:27.
soumitha,
The Holy Spirit is God. The Church is not God, and can never be an alternative to God. It only provides the fellowship & guidance required to seek, taste & worship God.
If you have been attending TPM meetings, esp. tarrying meetings, you will know the importance given by this Church to the Holy Spirit. Thousands & thousands are being anointed by the Holy Spirit in these Tarrying Meetings.
Dorothy,
Love of money is indeed evil. Don’t generalise please based on your experience with a few workers of TPM. As I mentioned in an earlier post of mine, there are black sheep in every organisation. Love of money is a widespread phenomenon in this world, and it is but natural it is found in many people even in the church who are not yet perfected. That does not make all people of the Church evil. I have heard more teachings on this evil in the TPM church than in other places, and met a number of people who are indeed leading a truly consecrated life.
Danny
the best way is to crucify the author in one cross and susan in another cross so that we can worship both and follow the teachings of both.
Danny
We TPM people have received the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues a lot. But I think our understanding of the Holy Spirit and the way He works is highly doubtful.
Moreover. just remember that millions of non-TPM believers are being baptised by the Spirit. God moves more outside TPM than inside.
Danny,
There is a truth stated in this blog site. TPM founders promised to live in rental houses and so they called it faith home.
But now the name remains and the substance has vanished. So the lust for money and lands and buildings is not individual but that which concerns the church as a whole!!
I don’t want to say anything. But please visit spiritlessons.com
U will know waht is life after all
thanks
Sowmitha,
It is true that millions not in TPM are getting anointed, and it is a matter of great joy! God does not work through a single church or person; but you cannot deny that thousands have, and are, receiving the anointing even in TPM. If God does not have His eye upon this Church, can it happen?
If one receives the anointing, the Holy Spirit will guide him or her “into all truth”. So those who receive the anointing, irrespective of where they receive it, will be led into all truth, as long as they are led by the spirit.
Though properties are bought, please note it is not in the name of any individual but in the name of the Church. All workers are transferred from faith-home to faith-home, and whatever they buy in one place is left behind in that place for the next batch of workers to utilise. They move to the Fath-home to which they are transferred not knowing what awaits them there. Is it not faith life? As the church has no fixed source of income, but depends on tithes and offerings (which was ordained by God in the Old Testament), are they not practicising faith-life?
Danny
Danny,
There is a TPM trust which has crores of rupees. Is that faith? The need for a trust came because lands and buildings were purchased. This violated the committment ofthe founders.
Founders committed to live in rental houses and that is why the name “faithhome”. Trust money supplies money for land purchase and building construction.
Moreover, the false doctrines to create an identity for TPM is the one as Susan says enslaves the believers. We need to think more on this.
Like for example, the melchizedek calling which I begin to think is unbiblical because there is no verse that says that celibates are melchi priests.
In fact as is stated in this blog, every christian is a priest as per 1 Pet 2:5,9 and Rev 20:6 and that too with a far better calling than Aaron the High Priest.
It is true that we have entrance to the Most Holy Place with CONFIDENCE as per Heb 4:16 and Heb 10:19 which Aaron did not have. I never knew this amazing truth till I visited this blog.
So rather than glorify and brag about workers, I would suggest you and everyone to be equipped with the word and serve God as per John 14:12.
The theme I think of this blog site is to be prepared for the Lord’s coming and more importantly win souls by desiring for the gifts of the Holy Spirit which is given to every christian who desires.
So let us stop focussing or defending TPM workers and start focussing on Christ and what we can do for God and His kingdom.
Dear Sister Sowmitha,
Trying to put some light on your doubts…
There is a TPM trust which has crores of rupees. Is that faith? The need for a trust came because lands and buildings were purchased. This violated the committment ofthe founders.
Founders committed to live in rental houses and that is why the name “faithhome”. Trust money supplies money for land purchase and building construction.
Answer to your question: YES IT IS FAITH.
Now.. Violation of the founder’s commitment: Pas. Paul was even married… So what do you say about that?? I need to know your opinion on that.
You say about preaching in villages and public places… This is the main reason why many of the independant churches today are falling apart… They have no complete compliance with the law of the land, and go against the principalities and powers of the land, which the Word of God clearly states as against His Law…
These days.. anyone goes to a Bible College, analyses and studys God (rather than having personal relationship with Jesus and knowing Him), and come up with their own vague ideas, mis-intepretations and personal choices of doctrines and begin thier own church without any complete compliance with Law of the Land…
NOTE: If you want to preach gospel, conduct outreach activities, conduct open air conventions etc.. you need to have permissions, sanctions, there are many legal compliances which takes place behind the curtain of which we are not even aware of… To do all these activities, you need to have a LICENCED and REGISTERED IDENTITY from the goverment (compliance to the changing- law of the land; identity as “TPM”)—> Remember… the founder was a human not God… Daniel also faced the situation where He was to go against the LAW of GOD (not human) when the Law of the land came in the opposite way, and was cast in the den of lions when resisted…
I think this clarifies your doubts about the “laaaands, BUiiilddingsss” etc… atleast its not the outcome of some foriegn aid..
Moreover, the false doctrines to create an identity for TPM is the one as Susan says enslaves the believers. We need to think more on this.
Think more??? what- the identity or false doctrines ?? Since its cleared to us why is it so, there no need for us atleast to think about these meaningless issues, because Jesus isnt coming to pick up those who go to some tpm church.. or in the other words, the second coming of our Lord isnt just for tpm people but for all those who has….. (u knw better).
So rather than glorify and brag about workers, I would suggest you and everyone to be equipped with the word and serve God as per John 14:12.
I dont knw wht does that mean by ” being bragging about workers cos we never do that” and to be precise about the latter part … the verse here is
“John 14:12-14 (New Living Translation)
12 “I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have done, and even greater works, because I am going to be with the Father. 13 You can ask for anything in my name, and I will do it, so that the Son can bring glory to the Father. 14 Yes, ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it!”
— you can go through any other version or edition…. It specifies “ANYONE who believes in Me” or “The ONE who believes in …” BUT NOT “EVERYONE”. St Paul again says in I Cor 7:6 Chapter that
“6I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that”
SO ITS ALL ABOUT GIFTS that one has it and another doesnt. Its as simple as that !!!
Again to serve God, preach etc etc as I mentioned earlier, you need to have LICENCED…. (read above)… Those who can.. they can go ahead.. nobody’s stopping… Susan, Rachel, David wants to do that?? No one’s stopping or opposing.. Please carry on the God’s work we are with you, for great is the reward in heaven for those who win souls for His Kingdom (but certainly not for creating confusions, hatred, divisions among the bretheren, and keeping the gospel away from the gentiles as in case of brother Ram Rao, mis-interpreting it as the process of “eye opening”).
So let us stop focussing or defending TPM workers and start focussing on Christ and what we can do for God and His kingdom.
So shall l expect the same from you all ?? I urge you all to come out of it now please… and focus on Christ…
May God bless us All !!!
Brother in Christ,
Jim.
Hi Jim and Sowmitha,
Daniel went to jail. Hope our TPM workers go to jail for truth rather than break the founders committment.
No government law forces us to buy lands and buildings or no government forces us to violate the founders’ committment. It was our choice which is pitiable.
I think there is nothing wrong with foreign aid as long as they are tithes. God does not differentiate between local money or foreign money. Money is money.
I appreciate your statement that Jesus loves people of all denominations and considers them.
We need to give thought the false doctrines of melchi priesthood and “only unmarried are apostles” which I begin to realise is the most damaging one and slightly boastful.
It is true, Jesus never stipulated, as Susan claims, that apostles should remain unmarried or put asunder their wife. Apostles have a choice, as Susan rightly points out, to remain in marriage as per 1 corinthians 9:5 or be in a job as Paul the apostle was a tent maker by profession.
Concerning John 14:12 and Mark 16:17 Jesus never says that only unmarried apostles can perform miracles. It is ttrue that God wants to use believers to perform miracles for His glory. He even used a donkey to speak to Balaam.
Your interpretation to mean that “anyone” is not “everyone” is wrong. Anyone means those believers who desire to seek the gifts of the Holy Spirit as per 1 corinthian 14:7 will do miracles.
Let us put faith to ask and receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Let us not doubt that God will not give us gifts of healing and prophecy or the nine spiritual gifts.
Let every believer desire gifts of healing and prophecy and get licenses. Let God’s kingdom grow.
Let us discuss and face the various false doctrines bravely and yeild to be sanctified. God can use us only if we are sanctified from the false doctrines which make us focus on workers rather than on Christ.
Dear Sister Dorothy,
No government law forces us to buy lands and buildings or no government forces us to violate the founders’ committment. It was our choice which is pitiable.
YES.. the goverment FORCED us to violate the founder’s commitment. I think all of the “Licence and registration”, “Compliance with the changing-law of the land”, “blah blah blah” matter I posted earlier was not clear enough. May God open your inner eys of understanding. Again you are sticking on to one point mentioning about violation of founder’s commitment although you know he was a mere human being. We never wanted to go against the principalities and powers of the land. Thats all.
Dorothy.. btw, which church do you go to?
Your interpretation to mean that “anyone” is not “everyone” is wrong. Anyone means those believers who desire to seek the gifts of the Holy Spirit as per 1 corinthian 14:7 will do miracles.
Its the same interpretation that you are trying to explain me here.. you say “those believers who desire….” NOT EVERYONE.
I think there is nothing wrong with foreign aid as long as they are tithes. God does not differentiate between local money or foreign money. Money is money
Money BAD that is from corruption and money is GOOD that is from hard earned tithes. There is a difference between “aid” and “tithes”. God definitely differentiates betweeen the both. Tithes are the hard earned money of the individual believers for the church, which God commands them to pay to the Levites (or the one whos serving the Lord in His temple). Aid comes as a part of fund raised by people or some organisation in richer countries which comes into the hands of corrupted pastors and institutions and more than 50% of this aid are shared among the top management’s pocket for their basic needs first. Children’s education, Doctors’s bill, Lawyer’s bill, groceries, covering bank-loan, education fund etc etc… This BIG corruption takes place in the exact sense if you really have an inside out experience of these religious institutions world wide.
Apostles have a choice, as Susan rightly points out, to remain in marriage as per 1 corinthians 9:5 or be in a job as Paul the apostle was a tent maker by profession.
Question asked in 1 Corinthians 9:6 about being in Job while doing ministry:
Or is it only Barnabas and I who have no right to refrain from working for a living? 7 Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard without eating any of its fruit? Or who tends a flock without getting some of the milk?
Answer to this question in 1 Corinthians 9:13th:
Do you not know that those who are employed in the temple service get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in the sacrificial offerings? 14In the same way, the LORD COMMANDED that(S) those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel.
This time THE LORD COMMANDS… its not a concession of St. Paul.
St Paul again says not to put obstacles in the Gospel proclamation (wife, family, children, debt, credits, money, relative, kin, social responsibilities, bank-balances, savings, loans, fights, pride, blah blah blah)
1 Corinthians 9: 13:
“Nevertheless, we have not made use of this right, but we endure anything rather than put an obstacle in the way of the gospel of Christ.
People are not ready to endure these things as St. Paul explains. Rather they pick up verse as per thier choice… As Susan says, Apostles have a CHOICE to remain in marriage. Christianity is not bed of roses… Its a narrow path- NO CHOICES.. But then if you are using HIS word as a tool to find the CHOICES as per YOUR convenience, its up to you all to decide what that wud be called.
St Paul Says again in 1 Corinthians 7:7:
“I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own gift from God, one of one kind and one of another.”
St Paul Says again in Acts 26:29:
And Paul said, “Whether short or long, I would to God that not only you but also all who hear me this day might become such as I am—except for these chains.”
he again says here in 1 Corinthians 9:27
“But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.”
Thats what I tried to explain in my earlier posts too “Walk the Talk”.. Bring into action what you preach…
Its not just about leading a church BUT living CHRIST, LIKE CHRIST, pure and holy, without blemish. And since they are SO, they are more qualified than anyone to lead the church. That’s all.
Concerning John 14:12 and Mark 16:17 Jesus never says that only unmarried apostles can perform miracles. It is ttrue that God wants to use believers to perform miracles for His glory. He even used a donkey to speak to Balaam.
What you say is true. I should not be telling this to you but then… Let me go ahead without mentioning the name and place… one of our pastor, a beautiful man of God, is married, serving in ___ Faith home. He healed a deaf hindu boy last week… The young boy was deaf since his birth. Now the entire kin (some 8-12 individuals) of that boy comes to our church. This is the way we proclaim the word of God through wonders and miracles, adding more and more souls to the Kingdom of God. But what about the Word which tells in Mathew: 19:12??
“For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. HE THAT IS ABLE TO RECIEVE IT, LET HIM RECIEVE IT.
Apostles have a choice, as Susan rightly points out, to remain in marriage as per 1 corinthians 9:5 or be in a job as Paul the apostle was a tent maker by profession.
For your kind information, if you read th entire chapter, you’ll notice that these are mere questions being asked NOT a concession as in case of St Paul, or a commandment.. JUST A FEW QUESTIONS. Answers to these questions are answered in the same passage from 15th verse onwards… READ THEM for yourself CAREFULLY…. I’ve explained a bit in the above lines.. Read on your Bible with prayer…
Brother In Christ,
Jim
Hi Jim,
Dorothy’s mail was pretty reasonable. But it is strange that Jim considers the founders to be mere human beings!!
Are the present lot better than them? No way.
Moreover, Jim has not specified whether Government forced TPM to buy lands and buildings as Dorothy rightly pointed out?
What Dorothy I think means to say that every believer must be taught to desire the gifts of the Holy Spirit (which I start hearing in this blog quite a lot!) and to depend and serve God. Dorothy’s suggestion is good.
Foreign aid refers to money coming from overseas and not all are misused. Many TPM pastors had bank accounts as susan points out and had left with such a lot of money. So misuse happens even in our church nto to speak of the innumerable adultery. TPM needs to be sanctified.
As seen in this blog, 1 Timothy commands workers to be married and knowing home management. As Moses, Aaron, apostles were all married. God uses everyone to accomplish His goal.
In fact as it is pointed out in this blog, more work is accomplised by married ministers worldwide and TPM’s work is relatively very small. We need to think about that. So God can use married and employed people as well greatly.
TPM, as rightly pointed out, should not stipulate celibacy and not to work as there seems to be no such stipulation in the Bible. Even our Founders were married. As Dor pointed out correctly, Paul the apostle worked as a tent maker. (I checked this to be true!!)
As read in this blog, Paul when he talks 1 cor 7, it looks very reasonable to assume that he writes it to common believers and not to full time ministers. In such a case then all believers as per TPM should be unemployed and unmarried!! (which if we have to “walk the talk” have to follow)
Paul calls believers as “virgins for Christ”. So this implies that believers who work and marry can still be virgins for Christ.
Regarding the qualification to lead, I think, it is the Holy Spirit who leads and no human. Ofcourse we need pastors just as kids need mother’s breasts. But if a child does need a mothers breast all thorugh its life then there is something totally funny and wrong!! lol. TPM believers as susan points out need to more depend on the Holy Spirit rather than workers.
As susan points out rightly, (I questioned her), she and me also personally know hundreds of TPM pastors who have never ever done a miracle. Hence as Susan points out, claiming that TPM workers are exhaustively apostles is nonsense.
God likes more to see the believers, in these end times, as per John 14:12, to rise up, desire the spiritual gifts, and be used by God. Only the catholics seem to be more focussed on the priests and popes. As pointed out in this blog, Let us not emulate the catholics.
Let us look to our desire to seek spiritual gifts and our miracles which God does through us rather than talk about something else.
Regarding the eunuch teaching of Jesus, Jesus never stipulated it for workers. He meant that such a gift is given not just for the workers. So connecting eunuch gift to “apostleship” is not seen in the Bible. Even believers can be eunuch’s.
I think as clearly in this blog, GOD IS NOT INTERESTED IN EXTERNAL THINGS OF RELIGION LIKE CELIBACY OR WHITE DRESS. GOD SEEKS EVERY BELIEVER TO SERVE HIM RATHER THAN JUST HEAR SERMONS EVERY SUNDAY.
SO LET US LOOK TO GOD RATHER THAN THE WORKERS AND SEEK THE GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
Hi All,
This will be my last post in this website & Im nt going to come back to see ur stupid discussions. So if anybody want to reply me plz do so in my mail ramrao999@gmail.com with their address. This blog is created by an ethist & everybdy must critisise her views even hindus. Instead u all are fighting each other ( Im nt sure this will come in the blog or will be removed by chitra)
Ramesh
I dnt believe Jesus is Lord. Instead He is the founder of Christainity & was a very good preacher who spread the teachings of Love, Truth, Forgiveness etc.
Susan
Im nt here to hear your evangalism & dnt thnk im searching for that. The knowledge of Bible & Quran I acquired myself. Till nw nobody shws de guts to evagalise me, then he wont do it to anybdy. christians like u who doesnt knw to speak & act are making tensions & it will affect the community as a whole. you are living in Hindustan (place of Hindus) & u r a Hindustani. so please do show little manner to us. otherwise u will suffer in ur near future. u know my best family frnd is a christian & he is frm south india. he is the only non-hindu who has entered my house till nw. our family is like 1. it is nt religion… but relation which will last.
Br. Jim
I liked ur approach very much. de way u talk 2 me shws u r matured. i will surely read de books u told. but u must also knw more abt our religion also.. u must read atleast 2 vedas. keep in touch.
Jai Ram
Hi Ram,
I want to put the things straight forward so that you can understand you pathetic status.
All Hindu godesses on this earth are evil spirits. These so called ‘Hindu gods’ which are evil spirits live in dark places, and they given given different names , which innocently you are worshipping. None of these cursed spirits can come against my LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST.If you do not beleive Jesus , Your eternal destination for the rest of your life is ‘HELL’ burning fire. It’s your choice and you have chosen it.
Every minute atleast one person on this earth , is accepting JESUS as saviour. I have seen many person talking like you, including sadhus and brahmins but finally they have become better christians than us and some even church pastors.JESUS is THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD , WHO IS HOLY AND THE PATH TO ETERNAL GLORY .
Only JESUS spoke about forgiveness on this earth, because He has all the authority and power to forgive sins.
BIBLE clearly says that Jesus did not come to establish a religion but show us the path of salvation, forgiveness and HE is the passport to Heaven.
Again I say, You may be the anyone on this world , but without accepting Jesus you cannot go to Heaven.
With or withour your knowledge, You come to this site because you have already accepted JESUS as your savior, and you want to confirm.
Read BIBLE everyday, all your questions will be answered by the Holy Spirit.
All the ramayana and Mahabarath are only bad stories in Volume , Ram went in search sita, and sita went in search of ram…these are evils spirits have destoyed the Humanity.BUT BIBLE IS HOLY and written by the HOY SPIRIT, those who read are purified, healed, joy and peace abound them . You will delivered from all the curses and finally reach Heaven.
Ram, Thanks for accepting JESUS as your saviour and LORD, you go and evangelise this to you Hindu Friends. Live for Jesus and there is nothings better than this on this world.
Get involved in a church and bring salvation to many souls who does not know JESUS. Praise the LORD.
Brother Ram,
Thanks. I would definitely read vedas as per your advice and I’m sure I’ll learn a great deal about the Indian history, tradition, culture, its greateness, and unique status that it enjoys worldwide. I’m really proud of that fact. But Bro Ram, it will not and never lead me to my creator, salvation, and the eternal life. Religion isnt gospel and Gospel isnt religion. You may remain a Hindu and still follow Christ and His teachings and as you know more and more about Him you’ll feel like theres nothing in this world that is more important than Him including your past faith and customs. You’ll feel the thirst for hearing His voice (“literally”- I mean it and sure you’ll be able to because He LIVES.) and gradually you’ll understand “religion isnt Gopspel” in its true sense.
No where in the Bible it is mentioned that Christ came to this earth for establishing a religion as you mentioned in your posts. Christians are in the true sense is “New testament Jews”, Disciples were mocked by the people as “Christians” first in Antioch and thats how it became a name of religion. In the Middle East, around Israel and Egypt. After Jesus came, died and ascended to Heaven, many Jews converted to a new religion called Christianity because they had seen the long-awaited Messiah that the “Jewish religion” still waits for today. In the Medieval times, Europeans and Catholicism made Christianity what it is today as you can see…
The term religion is used to distinguish rather differentiate people but gospel unites people in Christ. The gospel-revolution that John Wesely brought in England was tremendous. He helped abolish slavery in England and devoted all his energy to the overthrow of African slave trade. England’s stature grew to such an extent, that the history of England is divided into two sects “Before Wesley” and “After Wesely”.
I dont know how wud you take it bro Ram but then as a matter of fact, I must tell you that we strongly disagree with the concept of idol-worshipping as even Catholics do by keeping the idols of Mother Mary and Baby Jesus. Many of our Indian brothers think that Christianity is the religion of whites and its from west. Darn.. Westeners became a blot on Christianity. Jesus Christ was never an American but an Asian just like you and me. He was not white but of an Asian Jew race.
Its not about conversion brother… No one can convert you and no ne should dare to do that… Its about “Change of the Heart” as ‘Pandit Dharm Prasad Sharma’ says and also mentioned in Psalms 51:10. If you go on to read the book of Proverbs in Bible… you wont feel like stopping.. The verses are so beautiful, it will linger in your thoughts while you walk, sleep, work and literally the whole day and the same will reflect in your life… you’ll cherish them for a lifetime.
As for me (I wont say Christians as it encompases those who spread strife and hatred), I have an eternal hope after death. Life for me is not over after my physical death. This is the reason brother.. why Christians are eager and desperate to convey Gospel to every one that comes their way…
Christianity doesnt give importance to materialistic blessings of this world as any other religion does. It talks about the persecutions, sufferings, and walking through narrow way being a true Christian. I would like you to know Swami Vivekananda’s remarks about Christianity. He said “Masihiyat nangi talwar ki dhar men chalne ki manind hai” meaning- “Christianity is like walking on the edge of the bare sword”.
Its not easy to be a true Christian and that is the reason why many Christians themselves doesnt go exactly as per the Word and pick up the verses as per their own CHOICES rather than understanding the Book of Law and they commit sins. They commit adultary saying even the old testament saint Abraham commited extra-marital sins, bare Ishmayeel, they drink saying even Moses drank wine when came out of Israel, they grow hair and walk like backstreet westeners saying all the saints including Jesus grew hair, they wear jewels and strange apparels saying even Rebecca was gifted with a gold ring etc etc…
Since Bible is the “Book of Law”, any ONE doctrine or rule can be bent to any extend as per people’s interpretation and their CHOICES which SUITS their LIFESTYLE. Instead of learning from them who are consecrated servants of God, who are lead by Holy Spirit. People rebel agaisnt the church, and as per their own CHOICES they go and begin thier own church. This is reason why protestants alone are having more than a 100 denominations within themselves and debate about thier beliefs and doctrines as you can see in this blog.
They dont understand the baseline difference between evangelisation and taking care of the sheeps (believers- i.e taking care of the church). Where as its the responsibility of believers to evangellise people, who are equipped with holy spirit, under the guidance of Holy Spirit and bring them to Church for understanding of deeper truth and mysteries about the kingdom of God.
Some facts with a pinch of salt:
More believers of Christ have died for Christ in the 20th Century than in all the other 19 centuries combined. The World Evangelisation Database has calculated that since AD 33 at least 40,724,000 Christians have been martyred. Of those, 26,625,000 were killed FOR THEIR FAITH between 1900 and 1990—most by communist governments. Every day an average of a thousand believers DIE for Christ world-wide— mostly at the hands of Muslim or Marxist persecutors.
Brother Ram, I’m pretty sure, there is definitely a BEAUTIFUL purpose of GOD concerning YOU. Jesus truly loves you.
Looking forward to hear from you. You can reach me at jimkjoy@gmail.com. We’ll talk in the outskirts of this blog, which spreads strifes and divisions rather than spreading gospel to lost souls.
Brother in Christ,
Jim.
Dorothy’s mail was pretty reasonable. But it is strange that Jim considers the founders to be mere human beings!!
Are the present lot better than them? No way.
Moreover, Jim has not specified whether Government forced TPM to buy lands and buildings as Dorothy rightly pointed out?
What Dorothy I think means to say that every believer must be taught to desire the gifts of the Holy Spirit (which I start hearing in this blog quite a lot!) and to depend and serve God. Dorothy’s suggestion is good.
Foreign aid refers to money coming from overseas and not all are misused. Many TPM pastors had bank accounts as susan points out and had left with such a lot of money. So misuse happens even in our church nto to speak of the innumerable adultery. TPM needs to be sanctified.
As seen in this blog, 1 Timothy commands workers to be married and knowing home management. As Moses, Aaron, apostles were all married. God uses everyone to accomplish His goal.
In fact as it is pointed out in this blog, more work is accomplised by married ministers worldwide and TPM’s work is relatively very small. We need to think about that. So God can use married and employed people as well greatly.
TPM, as rightly pointed out, should not stipulate celibacy and not to work as there seems to be no such stipulation in the Bible. Even our Founders were married. As Dor pointed out correctly, Paul the apostle worked as a tent maker. (I checked this to be true!!)
As read in this blog, Paul when he talks 1 cor 7, it looks very reasonable to assume that he writes it to common believers and not to full time ministers. In such a case then all believers as per TPM should be unemployed and unmarried!! (which if we have to “walk the talk” have to follow)
Paul calls believers as “virgins for Christ”. So this implies that believers who work and marry can still be virgins for Christ.
Regarding the qualification to lead, I think, it is the Holy Spirit who leads and no human. Ofcourse we need pastors just as kids need mother’s breasts. But if a child does need a mothers breast all thorugh its life then there is something totally funny and wrong!! lol. TPM believers as susan points out need to more depend on the Holy Spirit rather than workers.
As susan points out rightly, (I questioned her), she and me also personally know hundreds of TPM pastors who have never ever done a miracle. Hence as Susan points out, claiming that TPM workers are exhaustively apostles is nonsense.
God likes more to see the believers, in these end times, as per John 14:12, to rise up, desire the spiritual gifts, and be used by God. Only the catholics seem to be more focussed on the priests and popes. As pointed out in this blog, Let us not emulate the catholics.
Let us look to our desire to seek spiritual gifts and our miracles which God does through us rather than talk about something else.
Regarding the eunuch teaching of Jesus, Jesus never stipulated it for workers. He meant that such a gift is given not just for the workers. So connecting eunuch gift to “apostleship” is not seen in the Bible. Even believers can be eunuch’s.
I think as clearly in this blog, GOD IS NOT INTERESTED IN EXTERNAL THINGS OF RELIGION LIKE CELIBACY OR WHITE DRESS. GOD SEEKS EVERY BELIEVER TO SERVE HIM RATHER THAN JUST HEAR SERMONS EVERY SUNDAY.
SO LET US LOOK TO GOD RATHER THAN THE WORKERS AND SEEK THE GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
Dear Brother Iace,
Let us not bring disrepute to our TPM’s name by writing like ,”they may clean their chappels, kitchen, toilets and cloths of TPM workers.”
Brother, when we discuss with sisters and brothers of other denominations, we need to show love and not hatred.
Moreover, Jim has not specified whether Government forced TPM to buy lands and buildings as Dorothy rightly pointed out?
Why should Jim specify?? Is Jim CEO of tpm or some press-conference representative?? Everyone knows infact it needs common-sense that when the ministry grows, it needs worship places too. Ministry thus far has grown so much.. that harvest is plenteous but laborers are few.
What Dorothy I think means to say that every believer must be taught to desire the gifts of the Holy Spirit (which I start hearing in this blog quite a lot!) and to depend and serve God. Dorothy’s suggestion is good.
I reffered to wht Sister Dorthy said and not what YOU THINK she said. Even if you or Sister Dorothy think that way, then who will teach them to desire the gifts of the Holy Spirit depend on it and server God by evangellising people? Ofcourse those who are ministering God.. Who else do you think will teach… YOU?? Every believer in tpm have the liability to evangellise people far and wide depending and equipped with Holy Spirit and bring them to church where deeper truths and strong doctrines are further taught for strengthening thier spiritual life and to present them perfect in Christ…. that is what we are all taught here in tpm. I dont know who tells you all that crap and wonder how you percieve things.
Many TPM pastors had bank accounts as susan points out and had left with such a lot of money. So misuse happens even in our church nto to speak of the innumerable adultery. TPM needs to be sanctified.
HAD?? Even everyone of us including YOU were born in sin. Do you still discuss about that past failures and sins which has been already forgiven?? when they step into ministry they have to leave all of that. DID YOU KNOW THIS FACT?
Here we were talking about money.. All of a sudden you thought about adultery.. Mind you.. when a worker commits than sin, he’s ex-communicated. And morover.. nyways we are all discussing about the doctrinal differences here.. WHY ARE YOU JUDGING THEM?? WHO ARE YOU JUDGE ANYWAY? LEAVE DOING GOD’S JOB… may be otherwise you’ll find yourself in tears and humiliated in the Lord’s day of Great Judgement.
As Dor pointed out correctly, Paul the apostle worked as a tent maker. (I checked this to be true!!)
That means you are not a regular Bible reader. I knew that St. Paul was a tent maker when I was in kg, studying in Bhutan where my mom was a teacher. No one needs to tell you or so called “rightly pointed out” to know these simple facts about the aposltes at this grown up age !!! I feel shame of myself posting in this blog. Which church did you complete your sunday school from, If it was in tpm who was your teacher?? OR DID YOU EVER EVEN COMPLETE SUNDAY SCHOOL?
In this way, when you are not even partially aware of the Lord’s Word, whatever told to you becomes an ultimate truth for you, without any cross references. btw you never mentioned what I “pointed out” earlier in my posts. I’ve pasted once again FYR.
1 Corinthians 9:13th, 14th (READ 14TH verse CAREFULLY):
13Do you not know that those who are employed in the temple service get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in the sacrificial offerings? 14In the same way, the LORD COMMANDED that(S) those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel.
This time THE LORD COMMANDS… So Jim rightly pointed out or… what do you say about that??
As seen in this blog, 1 Timothy commands workers to be married and knowing home management. As Moses, Aaron, apostles were all married. God uses everyone to accomplish His goal.
I dont know how many times should I “rightly point out” WHAT the Lord’s word says about it and to WHOM?? Here it is again pasted for you if you missed out or if the level of your perception doesnt permit you to digest the truth.
1 Corinthians 9: 12:
“Nevertheless, we have not made use of this right, but we endure anything rather than put an obstacle in the way of the gospel of Christ.”
Again he says in 1 Corinthians 9: 15:
“15But I have not used any of these rights.”
NOT USED THE RIGHT to work, marry (to take a believing wife along with) etc etc…. as mentioned rather asked in 1 Corinthians 9: 1 onwards… BECAUSE IT WILL CAUSE HINDRANC IN THE GOSPEL WORK as mentioned in the same verse. –“But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ.”
People are not ready to endure these things as St. Paul explains. Rather they pick up verse as per thier choice… As Susan says, Apostles have a CHOICE to remain in marriage. Christianity is not bed of roses… Its a narrow path- NO CHOICES.. But then if you are using HIS word as a tool to find the CHOICES as per YOUR convenience, selecting 1 or 2 verses, its up to you all to decide what that wud be called.
St Paul Says again in 1 Corinthians 7:7:
“I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own gift from God, one of one kind and one of another.”
St Paul Says again in Acts 26:29:
And Paul said, “Whether short or long, I would to God that not only you but also all who hear me this day might become such as I am—except for these chains.”
he again says here in 1 Corinthians 9:27
“But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.”
Regarding the eunuch teaching of Jesus, Jesus never stipulated it for workers. He meant that such a gift is given not just for the workers. So connecting eunuch gift to “apostleship” is not seen in the Bible. Even believers can be eunuch’s.
Ofcourse yes.. ur right not just for the workers but also for the believers, then these believers become workers. Is it not seen in Bible in the verse Math 19:12??? “HE THAT CAN RECIEVE IT LET HIM RECIEVE”… It was the teaching of Jesus who himslef wasnt married; this doctrine was simplified further by St Paul and Timothy. Is it not seen in Bible?
As susan points out rightly, (I questioned her), she and me also personally know hundreds of TPM pastors who have never ever done a miracle. Hence as Susan points out, claiming that TPM workers are exhaustively apostles is nonsense.
You know hundreds of tpm pastors?? Eve I dont know that much…!!! and those who have not performed even a single miracle?? You’ll neve HEAR of any miracle being performed here in tpm cos we dont advertise as many churched do. During our conventions, photography, videography etc are strictly prohibited. Diseases like cancer and aids are being cured miraculously. People are getting to know about the wondrous things of the most powerful God and getting to the fold more and more on everyday basis.
As read in this blog, Paul when he talks 1 cor 7, it looks very reasonable to assume that he writes it to common believers and not to full time ministers.
So if it looks reasonable why dont you too feel its written for you? After all you are ignoring saying that it is ONLY for tpm, although its wirtten in the Lord’s Word. Its called “Making sure of your calling” It is written for every believers. Even the workers are believers in Christ.
And about the book of Timothy, about “Bishop should be husband of one wife”, I’ll post it differently so that you can read it carefully not mixed up creating confusions.
Dear Sister Sowmitha,
Let us not bring disrepute to our TPM’s name by writing like….
You are already bringing disrepute to OUR tpm’s name by discussing about their shortcomings rather than looking on to its positive side and LIVE a POSITIVE LIFE. You are creating a havoc here by joining hands with those who advocate AGAINST going to church and are themselves non-church-goers.
Dont try to evade away from my question… I again ask you this…”Which tpm church do you go to”??? And if you want to bring reformation why are you so afraid to talk to the pastor of your church rather than discussing it on the public internet blogs like these?? Are you interested in seeking attention by joining hands with them who think they are smart by quoting some verses here and showing off thier disguest towards tpm church just because of some bitter experience there??
Leme know this first.. “Which church do you go to”?
Untill you tell me this, I’m straightaway going to ignore all your posts ending up in quenching your own thirst of frustation and bitter exp that even you might have tasted in tpm because of its strong and strict doctrines.
When the founders have made a committment God honors the committment by providing places to worship. The successors need not have to grow smart beyond God and their founders.
Deeper truths does not mean false doctrines like celibate apostleship.
Jim seems to be concrened about corruptions in other religious groups and criticises other denominations and when he does so he forgets about the judgement day. At the same time he reminds us of judgement day.
Judgement day is for those who preach false doctrines and calls them deeper truths and those who defend those workers. Judgement is not for those wh stand to speak the truth.
The apostles had a choice to work and marry. But sadly TPM does not give that choice to workers. This as susan rightly points out is unbiblical!!
Eunuch teaching was not given to believers who become workers. Jesus never said so. It was given as a gift to anyone not just workers.
As susan points out rightly, (I questioned her), she and me also personally know hundreds of TPM pastors who have never ever done a miracle. Hence as Susan points out, claiming that TPM workers are exhaustively apostles is nonsense. (The issue thus is not whether miracles happen or not but the claim of exhaustive apostleship for TPM workers!!)
Jim says, “You know hundreds of tpm pastors?? Eve I dont know that much…!!! ” Jim’s statement makes one think whether Jim is a grandfather for all of us??
Jim has accepted finally that 1 cor 7 is for all believers. If so he has to tell TPM to stop getting marriage licenses and stop conducting marriages and stop making TPM buildings as marriage conducting halls.
No one here is a non-church goer. You wrongly assume like that. Your rude statements really has irked many. You bring disrepute to TPM. Stop doing that brother.
Let me ask you Jim. If you try to counter the truth in this blog as if you are very concerned about truth why don’t you accept the truth and tell your pastor to stop conducting marriages as they believe that marriage will lead a person away from Christ’s devotion?
I think Jim has a bitter experience with truth. What TPM has is quite a lot of false doctrines dressed as pharisaic godliness. I was sure not convinced by your replies to Susan and Rachel both in scriptural content and in attitude. You are certainly not from TPM but some outsider pretending to be TPM.
Sister Sowmitha,
Once after salutation, you dont need to mention my name every now and then. it makes you appear highly immature while having a discussion.
Deeper truths does not mean false doctrines like celibate apostleship.
All that I referred from the Word regarding the “celibate apostleship” in all these posts I think wasnt enough for you to understand. Let me paste it up again “just for you”
1 Corinthians 9: 12:
“Nevertheless, we have not made use of this right, but we endure anything rather than put an obstacle in the way of the gospel of Christ.”
Again he says in 1 Corinthians 9: 15:
“15But I have not used any of these rights.”
NOT USED THE RIGHT to work, marry (to take a believing wife along with) etc etc…. as mentioned rather asked in 1 Corinthians 9: 1 onwards… BECAUSE IT WILL CAUSE HINDRANCE IN THE GOSPEL WORK as mentioned in the same verse. –”But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ.”
People are not ready to endure these things as St. Paul explains. Rather they pick up verse as per thier choice… As Susan says, Apostles have a CHOICE to remain in marriage. Christianity is not bed of roses… Its a narrow path- NO CHOICES.. But then if you are using HIS word as a tool to find the CHOICES as per YOUR convenience, its up to you all to decide what that wud be called.
St Paul Says again in 1 Corinthians 7:7:
“I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own gift from God, one of one kind and one of another.”
St Paul Says again in Acts 26:29:
And Paul said, “Whether short or long, I would to God that not only you but also all who hear me this day might become such as I am—except for these chains.”
he again says here in 1 Corinthians 9:27
“But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.”
NOW IF YOU ARE REFERRING TO 1 Timothy 3rd CHAPTER,
“If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer,[a] he desires a noble task. 2Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?)”
It is said, if anyone sets his heart i.e, wants to be a leader of the church if already married. you can check out in any edition of any version (KJV, , NIV, ESV etc..) it is mentioned as “husband of one wife”. No where it is mentioned as a compulsion AS “SHOULD BE MARRIED”.
Timothy is conveying this message to those who are already married and got the calling to serve the Lord.
Let me explain this to you…. For eg:
If I go to a net cafe, I see the board written as “Please leave your footwear out”. According to the instruction, I’ll take out my footwear and go in.
Now suppose I’m not wearing any footwear.. what do you expect me to do?? GO TO A SHOP, BUY A SET OF NEW FOOTWEAR FOR MYSELF, COME BACK TO REMOVE AND GO INSIDE????
The Bible says in 1Timothy 3:2 that bishops and elders should be “husband of ONE wife”. So we see that monogamy is a holier way and spiritual leaders should be exemplary in this. Polygamy thus is the PERMISSIVE and not the perfect will of God as leaders of the church.
After this explanation, if you are not able to digest the truth, if its said that the “bishops should be husband of ONE wife”, does that mean that the believers can have more than one??!!!!
I hope its clear atleast now about the “celibate apostleship”.
YOU ARE AGAIN TRYING TO EVADE MY QUESTION.. WHICH CHURCH ARE YOU FROM??? I DISAGREE WITH YOUR SAYING THAT EVERYONE HERE ARE CHURCH-GOERS… SUSAN HERSELF ADVOCATED AGAISNT GOING TO CHURCH IN MANY OF HER POSTS…
Sister Sowmitha,
The apostles had a choice to work and marry. But sadly
TPM does not give that choice to workers.
CHOICE TO MARRY?? Well… there no CHOICES in the narrow path and strict doctrines… can u digest that?? NO?? leave it.. Many people CANT.. so they are left with no choice than to blabber around accusing and blaming them…
Eunuch teaching was not given to believers who become workers. Jesus never said so.
Jesus never said so??? Is it?? Jesusu said, “HE THAT CAN RECIEVE IT, LET HIM RECIEVE” If you cudnt recieve the meaning of it, then pray to God to open your eyes of understanding or else leave it and remain grudging, blaming and murmuring about it….
If you try to counter the truth in this blog as if you are very concerned about truth why don’t you accept the truth and tell your pastor to stop conducting marriages as they believe that marriage will lead a person away from Christ’s devotion?
You said you ar from tpm. WHY DONT YOU DO THAT??? I ALREADY KNOW WHT THE TRUTH IS.. I DONT HAVE TO ASK ANYONE OR GET THE CLARIFICATION… As far you are concerned, you need an explanatory teaching of Bible when you were not even aware that St. Paul was a tent-maker by profession. And if you think that only Susan can teach you Bible, well… then I dont know what to call that as…
I think Jim has a bitter experience with truth
If you cant digest the truth, its not my problem. Its the issue with your perception-level and rebel-spirit of devil which does not allow you to digest the truth… Truth is always bitter but no truth is sweeter than the fact that “Our Saviour is Soon going to appear in the clouds”.. Again this truth is sweet only for them who are ready for the rapture… Is this truth sweet for you??? ASK YOURSELF… and prepare yourself.
Jim says, “You know hundreds of tpm pastors?? Eve I dont know that much…!!! ” Jim’s statement makes one think whether Jim is a grandfather for all of us??
Well… I didnt really mean that… If you can name 100 pastor of tpm along with thier respective fathhomes, without referring a database, I would admit that you are my grandmother !!! HAPPY???
Jim confuses 1 cor chapter 7 to be meant for workers. Actually it was written to believers.
Neither Paul nor Jesus Christ commanded anyone to separate married couples. Only TPM does that unbiblical thing.
TPM founder Raman Kutty Paul was married and exercised the CHOICE of an apostle to marry.
Paul the apostle also did his work and earned money.
Still Raman Kutty and Paul were called as apostles. But now TPM stipulates celibacy for apostleship which is totally unbiblical.
Paul commands that those who are married only know about a family and so could manage a church effectively. Jim seems to have forgotten that.
TPM believers need to come out of the habit of suckling the workers for spiritual food. They need to learn to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit.
Bible has given choice for an apostle to marry and work. TPM cannot deny that choice. They have no such authority. Even the TPM Founder was married and had children in the faith home.
Jim has to learn to understand the fact that TPM cannot stipulate beyond the scriptures and beyond the TPM founder Pas. Raman Paul.
TPM BELIEVERS NEED TO LEARN TO ENTER THE MOST HOLY PLACE WITH CONFIDENCE AND LISTEN TO THE FATHER OF JESUS.
TPM BELIEVERS NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT THEY ARE ROAL PRIESTS AS PER 1 PET 2:9. EVEN AARON ENTERED THE MOST HOLY WITH FEAR. BUT WE TPM BELIEVERS CAN ENTER WITH “CONFIDENCE”. WE HAVE A BETTER CALLING THAN AARON.
LET US THEREFORE LOOK TO GOD RATHER THAN A BUNCH OF WORKERS WHO MIGHT ANYTIME ELOPE WITH SISTERS OR KICK A PASTOR LIKE PHILLIP CHANDAPILLAI WHO WAS KICKED BY PASTORS AND HE EVENTUALLY DIED. LOOK TO CHRIST!!
Sister Sowmitha,
So the Moderator is on your side to delete all my posts… CONGRATULATIONS !!! I feel so happy, feel like leaping for joy for the reproach in proclaiming the truth.
ANYWAYS.. TRUTH CANT BE HIDDEN… THE MORE YOU TRY TO SUPRESS IT, THE MORE STRONGLY IT WILL REVEAL ITSELF IN ITS TIME.
Hmm…
The “celibate aposteship” is strongly recommended as per Bible for those who really wish to serve the Lord and is the perfect will of God concerning spiritual leaders as I explained in my earlier posts.
1 timothy chap3rd is for them who got the calling after thier wedding; “should be husband of ONE wife” otherwise it would have been a LAW or a COMMAND as “SHOULD BE MARRIED”….
Otherwise, if you say that it should be, then you are looking for the choice. I also percieve it as “if the BISHOP should be husband of ONE wife”, THEN MAY BE…. “THE BELIEVERS IN YOUR CHURCH CAN HAVE MORE THAN ONE WIFE” what do you say ABOUT THAT… GOOD???? You percieve it that way AS PER YOUR CHOICE, and I percieve it as my way…
BUT REMEMBER… ITS NOT MY WAY OR YOUR WAY… ITS THE SPIRITUAL WAY AS PER THE PERFECT WILL OF GOD CONCERNING THE EXEMPLARY SPIRITUAL LEADERS.
Timothy is CLEARLY conveying this message to those who are already married and THEN got the calling to serve the Lord. EVEN TPM HAS MARRIED PASTORS…!!!! BUT THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO KEEP THIER WIFES ALONG WITH THEM. THEY ARE POSTED IN DIFFERENT PLACES. If you ask why so, Read:
1 Corinthians 9: 12:
“Nevertheless, WE have not made use of this right, but we endure anything rather than put an obstacle in the way of the gospel of Christ.”
Again he says in 1 Corinthians 9: 15:
“15But I have not used any of these rights.”
NOT USED THE RIGHT to work, marry (to take a believing wife along with) etc etc…. as mentioned rather asked in 1 Corinthians 9: 1 onwards… BECAUSE IT WILL CAUSE HINDRANCE IN THE GOSPEL WORK as mentioned in the same verse. –
”But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ.”
coming back to the topic: Let me explain again which I’ve alreay explained earlier too… For eg:
If I go to a net cafe, I see the board written as “Please leave your footwear out”. According to the instruction, I’ll take out my footwear and go in.
Now suppose I’m NOT wearing any footwear.. what do you expect me to do?? GO TO A SHOP, BUY A SET OF NEW FOOTWEAR FOR MYSELF, COME BACK and then REMOVE AND GO INSIDE????
IN THE SAME MANNER, IF A PERSON ISNT MARRIED AND WANTS TO SERVE THE LORD, HE/SHE SHOULD STEP INTO MINISTRY BARE FOOTED… IT DOESNT MEAN GO, MARRY AND THEN STEP IN.
SO HERE THE CONCEPT OF “CELIBATE APOSTLESHIP” IS CRYSTAL CLEAR… ANYMORE DOUBTS??? DO LET ME KNOW.
Even I got disturbed when Susan, for the first time, quoted me those verses from the Bible.. I took time, I read those portion, consulted with the senior members of the church and pastors, meditated on it and it was revealed that those were just a few doubts NOT a commandment or a concession “clarifications to these doubts are given in the following verses very precisely”
TPM WORKERS ???
ZION ( Glorious things are spoken of thee)
“And I looked, and Lo, a Lamb stood on the Mount Sion, and with Him an hundred and forty and four thousand, having His father’s name written in their foreheads (Rev 14:1)
Mount Zion, is the eternal dwelling place of God, and the throne of His heavenly kingdom. We are now seeking to answer the age-old question as to who are the 144,000 that will be eternally with God in Zion (Psa 15:1; 24:3). We have considered that their possessing the Father’sname written in their foreheads speaks to us of how the 144,000 are a special possession of the Father. This elite group, in addition to being redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, were also “redeemed from the earth” and also “redeemed from among men.” These 144,000 servants of Gods are servants to all humanity and love of all man kind equally. This is a nature of God Himself, and a nature that we should endeavor to emulate in this prejudicial and divided world in which we live. True servants of God give their first, fullest and highest devotion of God alone before giving it to any man in this world. This applies even to their closest faily members and friends. It can therefore be seen that they are redeemed from among men.
Jesus- The everlasting father
Rev 14:1, it was the Father’s name that was written in their foreheads. This also speaks to us of the godly and noble qualities and natore of a Father that are seen in the lives of the 144,000. God is known as a Father (Jer 3:19; 31:9; Mat 6:9). This is due in part of His being the Creator of all things, and the ultimate Giver of life to all (Acts 17:28-29). His fatherhood reflects His love and care for His creation. Although the expression “God the Father” refers of the first person of Trinity.
Fatherly Interaction —
Some may think that, in order to be devoted entirely to God and attain Mount Zion, one would require nothing short of a complete separation from mankind. There are religious groups known for monastic lifestyles where they seek solitute, remain exclusive, and hedge themselves away from the problems and people of this world. They belive that through such separations they will come closer to God. However, this was not the manner of Jesus’ earthly life, and this is not the way of a true father.
These 144,000 padi the price in order “to follow the Lamb”. they will be found with Him eternally on that glorious mountain of the Lord. “singa, O barren , thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with; for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saih the Lord” (Isa 54:1-10). tn them is perfected the beautiful nature of a father, and that, in part, is why Mount Zion is called :the perfection of beauty,” the most wonderful place in all of heaven.Thre, thoughout eternity, His servants will see Him and His face, and continue their fatherly ministry among the redeemed in the everlasting glory and joyful presence of God (Rev 22:3-4).
Praise the Lord.
hi all praise the lord,
can anyone tell me where i can download messages of pastor don spiers.
can anyone tell me where i can download pastor don spiers messages
Hi all!
First of all it is a shame for Christians to criticise each other!
Now comin to susan
I bet you dont know anything about the true TPM/CPM life.
I bet you even didnt went to any of their meetings!
second it a stupid thing to think, that all the TPM/CPM believers wear onl white clothes. I am a beliver of that assembly in Germany it is called Neue Testament Kirche
And to your surprise i am not a Indian or a Sri- Lankan, I am a german girl who by gods mercy got saved as I was in despair like Rachel. I was an atheist, a smoker a drinker, i went to partys but I never had real pleasure. Satan always keeps his people ( those who are unsaved ) busy, only not to take care and start to think about their eternal purpose caus he know if they are doin he will loose them caus there will come to the thought where I will be in eternity. So the devil will be exposed if thet happens and more people will turn to God.
Apart from that I know workers of TPM and I can tell u that never befor I met people with such a peace. If you speak to them you will get peace automaticaly. It does not mean, that we are worshipping our workers, but God put them into his Glorious ministry to teach us more about Jesus and eternal life and they give us help also to go forth in the spiritual state.
All of their words will comfort you. Who else is praying for you very earnestly if you have a big problem? God made us a big congregation with lot of branches in the entire world. All of us will pray for you. It s not that only workers are praying we as belivers also concerned about every lost soul ( which means all those who didn´t eccept Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour).
another thing was for me it was amazed to see how different they are from other churches I have seen.
First time I entered the meeting the belivers and workers were praying on their knees and speaking in tounges ( which is the evidence of having received the holy spirit ) at first it was funny for me but after a while I myself started to fill in the spirit and speak unknown tounges. The people are so warm and welcoming, I mean in the beginning they didnt knew me but they where so friendly. Some of you will think now, that this is the way they are winning the people but I tell you this was 4 years ago and still they are warm and welcoming.
We do wear simple and live simple. It is not only because of culture the Workers and believers of Tpm Church wear white in white, it is to show the purity which they are desiering. In europe or other non Asien countries. Once a senior worker, who came from India to England was going to viisit a house so she was wearing a whit colour Sari and went on the steet. Next minute a car came stopping next to her and the man inside is asking her to climb in, because she looks like a widow. so that´s the reason in Europe for example we dont wear white in white.
At the same time, i am going through lot of reproaches because non af the days i am going out in trousers
people realise I am different I am always wearing skirt and for me to feel good it mus be over th knees, which means near to the anker bone.
By the way you may think I am a old person but I am just 22 and from my age of nineteen I only wear skirts and blouses.
another point even though I was adicted to the TV God delivered me from it, now 4 yaers I am living without TV.
If you want to know why i can tell you because TV watching is Idolatry because the most of the population of this world spends more timeon the TV than anything else. If you know any TPM churches or their branches you ask for the leaflet ” is TV harmful” there you will find lot of sientific arguementsd why TV is a problem.
I dont want to exhort myself as a better person than you are, I am maybe more worst than you but i know that my Lord will help me and finally take m, when he comes. I dont want to condemn any of you if you thought with some of my talks i did I ask you and Christ for pardon.
Finally I want to end by quoting a bible verse for all those who yearn for acceptance, love and hope “Ask and it shall be given you; seek and ye shall find; knock and it shall be opened unto you” Mathew 7:7 and specialy for you rachel is this one ” I am the way, the truth and the life, no one can come to the father but by me” so soon or later you will aknoledge the crown you have given up by rejecting God, his son, and his holy Spirit
may God bless you and all those who are reading my comments
to say one last thing about workers concerning their opinion for marriage. first of all the workers are dedicating their life by free will, not by forcements. they have decidet to live for the truths and serve full time. can you tell me somebody who can serve full time if he has wife or children? always you will have the need to provide money and food etc. for your children, even for your wife. I am a married person, I know about this life.
So there are couples which are married but they agree with each other to not to life a husband and wife relationship it means they are going to serve maybe in different places but are then no more husband and wife but Brother and sister because they dont maintain fleshable ( sexual ) contacts.
The truth is, all the TPM workers are married, they are married with the heavenly bridegroom Jesus Christ. The church is called the Bride of Christ not the wife of christ, that means we on that glorious day will become his wife, but we need to get ready for the marriage supper of the Lamb/ Christ/ Bridegroom. It meansin eternity I will be married to Christ and will live and reign with him in his glorious Kingdom.
Another thin I want to refer to same writings like TPM workers do seperate marriages. All those who are married and joining the fulltime ministrys have chosen by their own to be no longer called as husband and wife, that I explained up already and by the way Workers doesnt choose the people for the fulltim ministry God chooses them first off all you need a calling from God personally then God will confirm his calling again and again finally those who want to obay the calling fill the formulars to join the fulltime ministry. Pastors are praying for that matter and in a occasion like International Conventions the pastors ( filled with the spirit ) will lay hands upom those ho are choosen, cause God is guiding them, and anointing them for the ministry
the pastor alwin problem was simply to call into one word it was pride.
He was amighty by God used worker until he became proud and coukdnt agree with the doctrines like for example TPM songs singing. The workers are not allowed to sing alone, even if they have the biggest talent in the world because why? because not to get proud. What make the devil and FAllen Angels falling? Pride bacause Satan ( former Lucifer) wanted to exalt himself over the most high God.
Finally as I told pleas dont fight each other or when you as Christians ( Jim ) answer, try to not to get angry within yourself. we know as Gods children we need to fell pitty for the lost souls not anger if it is not so Jim may God forgive me and you as well for accusing you falsly
Okay with Regard to CPM/TPM Teachings, Can someone clarify the following Bible Verses/Questions (I am not a TPM Believer)
1. For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. (Matthew 19:12)
Who are these people : “which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake”
2. Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; 1 Peter 3:3?
3. I have seen and heard in Sri Lanka that some CPM believers have passed away without taking proper medical treatment.
But at the same time can you prove that whoever is taken to a Doctor, will be healed? Why does Hospital have a morgue?
To all the faithfuls of TPM
Read John 7-11
Please stop trying to fight for TPM or for anybody but as Jesus said cry for yourselves and your children. No good will come out of this except that you will lose peace of mind as well as your soul. Please cease all form of communication with this blog as this blog is being created by Christain turned atheist.
To Susan and other Christains Believers
Read Acts 5:26-40
38And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
39But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
I see you have lot of hatred against TPM. Perhaps they might have hurt you or maybe not able to meet your requirements. I ask on their behalf to please forgive us. I hope God will open your eyes to see the anger, hatred and envy in your life against other people or group and take step to rectify it for your good. It will only harm you but will not change anyone else.
If you do not like the teaching or misinterpretation of Bible by the TPM group do not join them but follow your own churches or teaching. If you have questions please have the courage to contact the pastor of the church personally.
To the creator of this blog:
I believe you are happy with the way things are going in this blog (as you expected). You have been successfull with few people by creating division among Christain by pitting them against TPM and thereby creating hatred, anger, envy and all kind of evil thoughts against the Christain community. I am not sure who is responsible for this – whether you or the spirit within you.
One last reference. Revelation 22:11-12
11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be
Hi all,
After sometime I am commenting here.
I want to say Amen to what Bro said.
When I first saw this blog my feelings were gushing that somehow I want to defend the faith that Lord has given me. I am very much blessed by the Doctrines of TPM. That s the reason why I commented before. But as the days went by the Lord asked me to refrain from what I am doing here. Hence I became a silent spectator of this debate.
Even now, I am not defending any of the TPM’s Doctrine. As it is the word of god it will defend itself. I wanted to acknowledge what Bro said. Thats it.
I just re-post what Bro said
“Please stop trying to fight for TPM or for anybody but as Jesus said cry for yourselves and your children. No good will come out of this except that you will lose peace of mind as well as your soul. Please cease all form of communication with this blog as this blog is being created by Christain turned atheist.”
Read Acts 5:26-40
“38And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
39But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
I see you have lot of hatred against TPM. Perhaps they might have hurt you or maybe not able to meet your requirements. I ask on their behalf to please forgive us. I hope God will open your eyes to see the anger, hatred and envy in your life against other people or group and take step to rectify it for your good. It will only harm you but will not change anyone else.
If you do not like the teaching or misinterpretation of Bible by the TPM group do not join them but follow your own churches or teaching. If you have questions please have the courage to contact the pastor of the church personally.”
Dear Susan, Rachel
Can I know, why are you so back of TPM??? There are many other denominations in Christianity!!!!!!
I smell some fishy here.
May be you are inadvertently trying to market TPM and its doctrines!!!!
I am contactable on jacob@patelbrass.com
jacob
The truth is that TPM is a dangerous church. I attended “New Testament Church”, the one in Chicago, back in the early 1980’s. I knew many of them – Bro. Don Spiers, Greg, Carlton, Matthew, Chuck, etc. and other “pastors” who came from the other states, India, and Sri Lanka.
Doctrinally, they are unsound, especially in their views of the Tabernacle and how it depicts where Christians will go (New Earth, New Heaven, Zion). Soteriologically, they are unsound as well, teaching a skewed version of salvation, that separates men from seeing God, unless they are willing to live as “eunuchs” for the kingdom. They misconstrue verses, such as John 3:3,5 to mean something which the early church never taught. The fact is that one can study the writings of the early church fathers, those who were taught by the Apostles to see that none interpreted these verses and others to mean what TPM teaches. What TPM teaches regarding salvation are “doctrines of men” (Matthew 15:9) and not of God.
There are other issues as well.
How they separate married couples, so they can “consecrate” their lives is very unbiblical (1 Timothy 4:1-3). During the time that I was a member, the church decided who could marry and who shouldn’t. Some were arranged marriages (in keeping with Indian customs), but others were advised against it.
Although they do not, expressly, tell their members not to go to doctors, they implant the idea that one isn’t in God’s perfect will if they do see a doctor. They often use 2 Chronicles 16:12-14 to make a case against seeking doctors, saying that one will be “perfect” if they trust the Lord for healing, but they don’t pay attention to good Biblical hermeneutics or exegesis considering Scripture states that Asa’s heart was “perfect all his days” (1 Kings 15:14; 2 Chronicles 15:17). This means that Asa was “perfect” even when he sought the physicians. Evidently, TPM’s view of perfection is different from the Biblical view. Furthermore, they ignore the culture of the times or their history, considering that the “physicians” that Asa sought were not the type of doctors you see today. These were pagan priests who used occultic practices to “heal” people. Yet, TPM fairs no better, considering they induce a subliminal pressure by claiming that those who seek doctors aren’t being completely faithful to God. Their faith isn’t “perfect.” Because many who ascribe to their doctrine compel themselves to have this type of “faith”, as a result, many have died needlessly. All they needed to do was see a doctor. In the New Testament Church located in Franklin Park, IL, I went to the funeral of a dear sister whose family I’ve known for many years. She had died from cancer. All the details that I learned, from speaking to church members, seemed to indicate that she didn’t see a doctor. How does someone who is dying from cancer NOT see a doctor??? Some years back, her husband was dying from encephalitus. I went to their home to see that no one was doing anything about it. I got a friend of mine, a paramedic, to come to the house to examined him. Her husband agreed to go to the hospital only after he was told that he would be dead by morning. All the “Faith Home” ministers who were present acted as if it were a crime for him to go. I couldn’t believe it! The irony of the whole thing is that there are some practicing doctors who attend the church. The hypocrisy of the whole thing is that there are men and women in TPM, who wear glasses. By their own standards, is this an imperfect faith? Amazing!
Back in 1987 my daughter, who was six weeks old at the time, contracted pneumonia. Because I was such a faithful member of the church, I didn’t take her to the doctors. The “Faith Home” came and they prayed, encouraging us to have faith in God, but she got worse. We took her to the emergency room only to find out that she might not make it through the night. I was crushed! Thank the Lord that, in His mercy, my daughter recovered and is now 22 years old. Yet, during that time, because we took her to the hospital, we didn’t even receive a single call to see how she was. Nothing! At church, we were made to feel as if we didn’t do the right thing. Yet, Scripture doesn’t tell us that we can’t see doctors. Luke was a physician. Jesus even said that going to physicians was for the sick (Matthew 9:12). Furthermore, when one sees the advances that medicine has made, one has to wonder Who gave men such great knowledge of the human body. Evidently, it is God who gives us that knowledge.
When I first began attending the church, it was because my fiance was going there. I left the church I was attending so that we could attend church together. When they found out that we had plans to marry, they were completely against it. They claimed that we had a “higher calling” on our lives and advised us not to marry. If God didn’t want us to marry, wouldn’t you think He would have told us first? Whether we married or not was none of their business. They were going against Scripture which allows marriage if a man and a woman consent to be married, yet they were putting so much pressure on us that we stopped going to the church for awhile. So they started visiting our homes and sending other church members, in an attempt to stop us from marrying. The reality is that they were attempting to take the place of the Holy Spirit and controlling the “good thing” (Proverbs 18:22) that God ordained for man. Marriage is a “good thing” and no man is to decide this for you. Even when Paul spoke about remaining single, he said that he spoke by “permission and not of commandment” (1 Corinthians 7:6), meaning that it was Paul’s opinion and not something the Lord was commanding. Yet, they make it seem as if it were a commandment. Back around 1987, the churches in the USA split because due to the marriage issue. The ministers who disagreed with TPM’s views on marriage split from TPM. They saw it as a direct violation of 1 Timothy 4:3.
The “Faith Home” ministers suffer the same deprivations that you would see in other cults. They are deprived of adequate sleep, food, medical help, etc. and are, thus, conditioned to play into emotionalisms. This is why you see such a heightened trance-like euphoria during prayer meetings. This isn’t any different than what you see produced by cults, where these are used as a tool, a technique for brainwashing. The ministers are the catalyst for inducing emotionalistic behavior that are often misconstrued as a “movement of the Holy Spirit.” I feel sad for them.
I have many other things to say about my days with New Testament Church, which is the name of TPM here in the USA, but time doesn’t allow me to. If anyone has any questions about their teachings, please feel free to post here or email me at ekklesia39@yahoo.com
It is my belief that TPM, and its affiliates, is a cult. The church has destroyed many lives and produces a reliance on their ministers, rather than allowing the Holy Spirit to guide the Christian to a true and lasting relationship with Jesus Christ in sincere repentance and trust.
Peace,
Ray
Dear Ray,
I read your post and would like to know more about you and the incidents occured to you. You have written a long story and nothing pointwise. Can you categorically tell me, what you want to prove by this post?
I am Jacob from India and have travelled world wide. Though I am attending TPM Fellowship, I dont banner myself as TPM, though I am believer of that Church. I am a follower of Jesus and I too have lots and lots of differernces and opinion against those typical TPM people. But, I know one thing. I too have the Spirit of God and hence I can discern what is right and what is wrong. I do the things which is within my understanding.
Jesus too said, ” Hear to what they speak, but dont do what they do”
I think with your case, you are not able to understand, what is right and what is wrong. You blindly follow and that is your mistake.
You should apply a thought, pray on that matter personally, seek heavenly intervention and then proceed. I can assure you that you will have nothing to grudge about and hold no-one responsible. I realised this and understood, after a folly happened in my life. I too believed blindly on these TPM Ministers and the result was really a big tragedy in my life.
You know what, I got married to a girl from TPM and these so-called TPM Ministers played folly to hide all wrong things about this girl, whom I married. Now, she is my wife unfortunately. She also said all lie to me and so I have grudge against her and also those workers. But it has nothing to do with TPM or Jesus or GOD. After this incident, I realised not to believe or trust on any human being. Perhaps, I could had avoided this folly, by sitting in the presence of God and asking for his will. I will tell you one more incident. Some years back, I saw a dream about an accident, I saw my bike’s damaged shape, I saw a police station and the place of accident. God showed me a week before this incident. I should had sat and prayed to avoid this, but I didnt do. Eventually, the accident occured and I was in the police lock-up, same place which I saw in my dream. My bike was also damaged exactly the same way, as I saw in the dream. Then I realised my mistake. I should had sat and prayed and this accident could had been avoided. Even about my marriage, I should had done that, which I didnt do, though I saw dreams about my marriage.
So, the bottomline is that, it is you and your God. There is no mediator, no intervener between both of you. So everything depends upon the LOVE and RELATIONSHIP between you and your God. God definetely warns you from the coming danger, also helps to recover from it and avoid it too, if you are willing. But if we dont want to get rid of that problem, what can God do???? It’s our mistake!!!!!
There are 100s of stupid ministers in TPM and at the same time there are 100s of saints. You know what, when I pray or praise about them, I praise this way
Praise God for all the ministers
Prasie God for all Saints
Praise God for all Believers
Praise God for all Faithhomes
I differentiate Ministers and Saints, becuase I know that all of these ministers are not Saints. Don’t look on them. They too are human beings and perhaps even more vulnerable or weaker than us. I personally know many ministers, who dont have even my spiritual standard. But, I understand them as babes. They too are called for a perfection as do I am. They are also in the race, trying to acheive that perfection. I too am trying to achieve that perfection. They also fails, as we do fail. So we and they, we all are trying our best to achieve the perfection, which Jesus has set. When we reach heaven, we shall be compared against Jesus. Our Measure-Scale would be Jesus and not these TPM Ministers!!!
So, when I see a poorer minister than me, I feel very sorry for him and pray more, so that he can come up better. Perhaps, God will see my this attitude and help me to get better than my current state.
THIS IS WHAT I UNDERSTAND ABOUT CHRISTIANITY.
May God bless us.
JACOB
Hi Jacob,
I think I was very clear. I am pointing out that TPM is not orthodox doctrinally, soteriologically, and that their practices, whether matrimonially, medicinally, etc. are byproducts of the heresy they teach. Those who follow TPM and their teachings wind up knowing nothing about what it is to serve God and, sadly, the ministers (Faith Home) and the higher authorities within the church are put in place of the Holy Spirit. Many of these people cannot discern the difference between following Christ and following their church and, thus, are led to follow leaders who tell them how to believe, rather than allow Scripture to guide their path. Again, I was very clear. The very facts that I pointed out, those things I experienced as a member of New Testament Church (as TPM is known here in the states) are not made up stories.
Jacob, I am used to people who exegete Scripture incorrectly and, sad to say, frivolously at times. These people (TPM) use “eisegesis” to determine Scripture. In other words, they take their own preconceived notions and read it back into Scripture. This is what I see in TPM. Even you used a verse out of context. You said…
>>Jesus too said, ” Hear to what they speak, but dont do what they do”
I think with your case, you are not able to understand, what is right and what is wrong. You blindly follow and that is your mistake. <>You should apply a thought, pray on that matter personally, seek heavenly intervention and then proceed. I can assure you that you will have nothing to grudge about and hold no-one responsible. I realised this and understood, after a folly happened in my life. I too believed blindly on these TPM Ministers and the result was really a big tragedy in my life.<>You know what, I got married to a girl from TPM and these so-called TPM Ministers played folly to hide all wrong things about this girl, whom I married. Now, she is my wife unfortunately. She also said all lie to me and so I have grudge against her and also those workers. <>But it has nothing to do with TPM or Jesus or GOD.<>After this incident, I realised not to believe or trust on any human being. <>Perhaps, I could had avoided this folly, by sitting in the presence of God and asking for his will. <>I will tell you one more incident. Some years back, I saw a dream about an accident, I saw my bike’s damaged shape, I saw a police station and the place of accident. God showed me a week before this incident. I should had sat and prayed to avoid this, but I didnt do. Eventually, the accident occured and I was in the police lock-up, same place which I saw in my dream. My bike was also damaged exactly the same way, as I saw in the dream. Then I realised my mistake. I should had sat and prayed and this accident could had been avoided. Even about my marriage, I should had done that, which I didnt do, though I saw dreams about my marriage.<>So, the bottomline is that, it is you and your God. There is no mediator, no intervener between both of you. So everything depends upon the LOVE and RELATIONSHIP between you and your God. God definetely warns you from the coming danger, also helps to recover from it and avoid it too, if you are willing. But if we dont want to get rid of that problem, what can God do???? It’s our mistake!!!!!<>There are 100s of stupid ministers in TPM and at the same time there are 100s of saints. You know what, when I pray or praise about them, I praise this way
Praise God for all the ministers
Prasie God for all Saints
Praise God for all Believers
Praise God for all Faithhomes<>I differentiate Ministers and Saints, becuase I know that all of these ministers are not Saints. Don’t look on them. They too are human beings and perhaps even more vulnerable or weaker than us. I personally know many ministers, who dont have even my spiritual standard. But, I understand them as babes. They too are called for a perfection as do I am. They are also in the race, trying to acheive that perfection. I too am trying to achieve that perfection. They also fails, as we do fail. So we and they, we all are trying our best to achieve the perfection, which Jesus has set. When we reach heaven, we shall be compared against Jesus. Our Measure-Scale would be Jesus and not these TPM Ministers!!!<>So, when I see a poorer minister than me, I feel very sorry for him and pray more, so that he can come up better. Perhaps, God will see my this attitude and help me to get better than my current state.<<
Jacob, once again, where is Scripture in all this? I can understand that you should pray for others. I also understand that you would hope to get better with help from God, but God has left us a source to help us “get better” and it is called “Scripture.” What does it say? It says…
“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works” (2Timothy 3:16-17).
You want to get better? Then read Scripture and follow it. It is God’s Word. The word “inspiration” is “theopneustos” in the Greek. It means “God-breathed.” In other words, God “breathed” these words into men of God and they wrote it. It is the standard by which we judge doctrine and correct those who stray from it. It gives us instruction so that we can be righteous before God. Throughout your letter, you have spoken from personal feelings and nothing more. I am wondering what your view of Scripture is. You emphatically state…
THIS IS WHAT I UNDERSTAND ABOUT CHRISTIANITY.
Jacob, I can’t stress this enough, if you want to truly understand Christianity, it starts and ends with Scripture. You won’t be able to prove anything unless you start with “Thus saith the Lord.” Yes, unless you start with the standard that God left us, that being the Scriptures, you won’t get anywhere except with those who take things at face value, but isn’t that the point? At TPM, many of their people take things at face value. There is no effort to know Scripture and test the doctrines of TPM. I’m sorry, Jacob, but the quickest way to lose your argument is by using your feelings and avoiding Scriptures. Feelings are not the standard God left; neither are they the standard that I live by.
Peace,
Ray
Hi Jacob,
Sorry about that last post. I tried to put your statements within some marks, so that you would know they are your statements, but it misconfigured. The format went bad. The following is what I meant to say. You will just have to read it a bit more carefully to separate what you said from my responses.
I think I was very clear. I am pointing out that TPM is not orthodox doctrinally, soteriologically, and that their practices, whether matrimonially, medicinally, etc. are byproducts of the heresy they teach. Those who follow TPM and their teachings wind up knowing nothing about what it is to serve God and, sadly, the ministers (Faith Home) and the higher authorities within the church are put in place of the Holy Spirit. Many of these people cannot discern the difference between following Christ and following their church and, thus, are led to follow leaders who tell them how to believe, rather than allow Scripture to guide their path. Again, I was very clear. The very facts that I pointed out, those things I experienced as a member of New Testament Church (as TPM is known here in the states) are not made up stories.
Jacob, I am used to people who exegete Scripture incorrectly and, sad to say, frivolously at times. These people use “eisegesis” to determine Scripture. In other words, they take their own preconceived notions and read it back into Scripture. This is what I see in TPM. Even you used a verse out of context. You said…
Jesus too said, ” Hear to what they speak, but dont do what they do”
I think with your case, you are not able to understand, what is right and what is wrong. You blindly follow and that is your mistake.
In context, Jesus is telling his disciples that the Pharisees “rightly” sit on the throne of Moses and that they should follow what they say, but not to do as they do. They were teaching rightly from a doctrinal stance, but they weren’t practicing what they taught the people to do. Yet, if you read Scripture, you find that there were instances where Christ rebuked the Pharisees for teaching falsely and putting burdens that no man could carry. In the case of TPM, their teaching IS the problem. I wasn’t following ministers, blindly or otherwise. I was following their “teaching.” This is the problem. The ministers are just those who enforce bad doctrinal teaching. You keep putting this on the ministers, but it wasn’t the ministers who did anything to me or anyone. It is the TEACHING! The same teaching that everyone in that church is adhering to. It is FALSE teaching that is the problem and not the ministers. Obviously you weren’t paying close attention to what I was saying in the post. In my case, I can judge TPM on the basis of Scripture and experience (considering I attended the church for several years). Yet, you weren’t paying attention and now you judge me without knowing anything about me. Get it right, Jacob. I wasn’t talking about ministers. I was speaking about their teachings. The ministers are only doing what TPM teaches them to do. You said…
You should apply a thought, pray on that matter personally, seek heavenly intervention and then proceed. I can assure you that you will have nothing to grudge about and hold no-one responsible. I realised this and understood, after a folly happened in my life. I too believed blindly on these TPM Ministers and the result was really a big tragedy in my life.
What about Scripture, Jacob? That’s where it truly starts. It doesn’t start with applying a “thought”, it doesn’t change because I “prayed” about it, seeking “heavenly intervention” means nothing if I don’t follow Scripture correctly. It starts and ends with study and properly dividing the Word of God (2 Timothy 2:15) and allowing the Holy Spirit to guide you. Even 1 John 2:20-27 speaks of how one doesn’t need a teacher to teach them IF they are allowing the Holy Spirit to illuminate them. You keep making these false assumptions that I have a “grudge.” I have nothing of the kind. I just want to make sure that those who enter TPM understand that they teach a false gospel, lead people astray, and mistake emotionalism for spiritual experience. As with any other cult, I want people to understand. By the way, I NEVER “believed” on these ministers. I believed on the teachings of the church and I thank God that he delivered me from their false gospel. Now in your next statement, you proved my point. You said…
You know what, I got married to a girl from TPM and these so-called TPM Ministers played folly to hide all wrong things about this girl, whom I married. Now, she is my wife unfortunately. She also said all lie to me and so I have grudge against her and also those workers.
You see what I mean? The first thought that went through my mind is “WHY did Jacob allow TPM to be involved?” TPM shouldn’t be involved in your marital decisions, Jacob. Where are the Scriptures proving that they can? You continued…
But it has nothing to do with TPM or Jesus or GOD.
Oh yes it did and it’s obvious, regardless if you admit it or not. You continue…
After this incident, I realised not to believe or trust on any human being.
You shouldn’t have trusted them from the beginning, especially since they were involved in your personal affairs. You continue…
Perhaps, I could had avoided this folly, by sitting in the presence of God and asking for his will.
And by reading Scripture. You would have found that this matter wasn’t something these ministers were to be involved in. You continue…
I will tell you one more incident. Some years back, I saw a dream about an accident, I saw my bike’s damaged shape, I saw a police station and the place of accident. God showed me a week before this incident. I should had sat and prayed to avoid this, but I didnt do. Eventually, the accident occured and I was in the police lock-up, same place which I saw in my dream. My bike was also damaged exactly the same way, as I saw in the dream. Then I realised my mistake. I should had sat and prayed and this accident could had been avoided. Even about my marriage, I should had done that, which I didnt do, though I saw dreams about my marriage.
I don’t put much value into dreams. Not that I doubt you. Maybe God did give you a dream. However, again, it starts with Scripture and ends with Scripture. You don’t need a “dream” to warn you about a bad marriage. Just use Scripture practically even when seeking a wife. You said…
So, the bottomline is that, it is you and your God. There is no mediator, no intervener between both of you. So everything depends upon the LOVE and RELATIONSHIP between you and your God. God definetely warns you from the coming danger, also helps to recover from it and avoid it too, if you are willing. But if we dont want to get rid of that problem, what can God do???? It’s our mistake!!!!!
Jacob, if you believe that ministers are incapable of leading the flock astray, what Bible are you reading? Sure, we have our responsibilities to follow God in all we do, but what is the standard by which we discern true and false doctrine? I only know of one…SCRIPTURE. Getting rid of the problem is to no avail if you continue to serve under a source of the problem. In other words, if TPM is a problem and teaches falsely, why pretend that it’s your fault? Instead, leave the source of the problem or you’re right…it is YOUR mistake!!! You act as if you aren’t responsible for what you are allowing in your ears and into your heart. YOU ARE!! You said…
There are 100s of stupid ministers in TPM and at the same time there are 100s of saints. You know what, when I pray or praise about them, I praise this way
Praise God for all the ministers
Prasie God for all Saints
Praise God for all Believers
Praise God for all Faithhomes
How about “Praise God for His Scriptures which is able to lead men into truth”? I didn’t see that one there. You said…
I differentiate Ministers and Saints, becuase I know that all of these ministers are not Saints. Don’t look on them. They too are human beings and perhaps even more vulnerable or weaker than us. I personally know many ministers, who dont have even my spiritual standard. But, I understand them as babes. They too are called for a perfection as do I am. They are also in the race, trying to acheive that perfection. I too am trying to achieve that perfection. They also fails, as we do fail. So we and they, we all are trying our best to achieve the perfection, which Jesus has set. When we reach heaven, we shall be compared against Jesus. Our Measure-Scale would be Jesus and not these TPM Ministers!!!
You don’t seem to be able to understand everything I’ve said. At no time did I say that I was looking at TPM ministers. You keep repeating this, but if you read what I stated, you find that this isn’t the case. I am talking about TPM’s doctrinal teachings and their practices. The ministers are only carrying out the doctrines and practices of the church. To claim that I am pigeonholing this to solely the ministers is your misinterpretation of what I wrote. In other words, when the ministers do anything, it is because their church authorities allowed them to do it. Therefore, TPM, as an organization is teaching these “saints” false doctrines and the “saints” are buying into it without question. Of course! Jesus is our only example. He is Who we strive to follow. However, TPM wants their “saints” to follow a false caricature of Christ. In other words, because of their doctrine, the people are, in actuality, following their ministers, rather than Christ. I saw it the entire time that I attended that church. You said…
So, when I see a poorer minister than me, I feel very sorry for him and pray more, so that he can come up better. Perhaps, God will see my this attitude and help me to get better than my current state.
Jacob, once again, where is Scripture in all this? I can understand that you should pray for others. I also understand that you would hope to get better with help from God, but God has left us a sources to help us “get better” and it is called “Scripture.” What does it say? It says…
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works (2Timothy 3:16-17).
You want to get better? Then read Scripture and follow it. It is God’s Word. The word “inspiration” is “theopneustos” in the Greek. It means “God-breathed.” In other words, God “breathed” these words into men of God and they wrote it. It is the standard by which we judge doctrine and correct those who stray from it. It gives us instruction so that we can be righteous before God. Throughout your letter, you have spoken from personal feelings and nothing more. I am wondering what your view of Scripture is. You emphatically state…
THIS IS WHAT I UNDERSTAND ABOUT CHRISTIANITY.
Jacob, I can’t stress this enough, if you want to truly understand Christianity; it starts and ends with Scripture. You won’t be able to prove anything unless you start with “Thus saith the Lord.” Yes, unless you start with the standard that God left us, that being the Scriptures, you won’t get anywhere except with those who take things at face value, but isn’t that the point. At TPM, many of their people take things at face value. There is no effort to know Scripture and test the doctrines of TPM. I’m sorry, Jacob, but the quickest way to lose your argument is by using your feelings and avoiding Scriptures. Feelings are not the standard God left; neither are they the standard that I live by.
Peace,
Ray
I am a Hindu born Brahmin man (late 60s) who came to Christ 27 years ago, and was born again, I follow the word of God and believe in the Infilling, Indwelling and the leading of the Holy Spirit and a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
I was excommunicated from my family long ago, they have all gone, I was the only believer in the Lord Jesus christ. Over the years. That is a bit about my background.
I may not agree with the author’s certain view points and do respect the fact that the Author of this blog is an atheist as she had honestly admitted, I find myself agreeing with some other things she had written about certain pentecostal people.
I have had a life time of abuse and judgements and headaches with Kerala christians.
1. I found them sometimes very controlling and judgemental, twisting the scriptures to suit their own personal agendas or needs, rather than focus on what the scriptures say they give heed to “culture” and put culture above God. Christ came to reconcile all mankind to himself, and all men are created equal. All of mankind that exists today, came from Noah and his three children. They later migrated and transmigrated into new lands, thus eventually populated different parts of the world, developed over time their own cultural values and traditions.
Jesus Christ however, cautions against the “vain traditions of men”, some kerala pentecostal pastors and christians have put this as the all in all.
2. I found them often very harsh to their women, I found them very harsh to people who disagree with them even in small ways, attack them straight, point them as evil, and start praying “inscriptural prayers”, which itself is a form of witchcraft.
eg: “I pray to God, you will become JUST like me, and I will pray day and night” = Is this prayer from God ? Did the Holy Spirit give you burden to pray like that ? or is it because you think you have some form of spiritual authority over others and can invoke God as a stick to beat up other people, you are no different from those who commit witchcraft against others.
3. I found them extremely self confident and arrogant to other Christians, they force smile and force everyone to be “joyful and sing” all the time but inside a lot of these pentecostals are broken people, with broken lives. They just put on a show just to “save face” but many of them in their rooms at night cry out rivers of tears, because no ne asked them “how do you feel and what do you want?”.
Jesus came to one of the apostles and He asked “What do you want? “. Christ often cares about your needs and wants and your values, as long as they are in line with what the scriptures say of a life in Christ.
4. Excessive parental authority and fear being put
When I was excommunicated by my family 27 years ago, I asked for understand and help. Many pentecostal pastors attacked me and blamed me of being “dishonrable and disobidient” to my parents, and used my parents as a means to intimidate and threaten me into submission.
The bible talks about “Honoring your parents”, but take it in a greater context, are your parents Christian? Are they both Filled with holy spirit? are their demands on you reasonable ?
What if your father was a rapist? or a child abuser? What if your mother was a drunk ? and they commanded you to do something against God, would you obeyt hem blindly ? What if you were a convert, and they commanded you to marry a hindu woman which the scriptures forbid ?
Parents are humans too and they are not perfect. God speaks to people directly through the HOly Spirit, we don’t need mediators to decide what God wants , He speaks through His word.
Pastors believe they are the only spokesman of God, and only they can speak on behalf of God.
Each believer in the new testament is equipped to be self sufficient and Christ reliant. It is good to have a community etc, to share things to be edified and to get what God gives you “confirmed by many”. but no where does the scriptures say God only speaks through the pastor and malayalee pentecostals then only it is true.
I found many things in kerala’s church to be childish, at times arrogant, narrow minded, culturally driven and outright dangerous ways to control people.
5. When I married a non indian woman, she was a devout Christian , she really became my only family, she was attacked day and night by Malayalee Pentecostal pastors who condemned us both to burn in hell fire , and would write letters to us saying “they are praying for us to repent of sin for not marrying people of OUR OWN ETHNIC GROUP etc etc, no where does the bible in the new testament say that.
My wife suffered immensly and so did I.
I am 67 years old, I have seen life. I have studied Hinduism in its depth and core and I can identify and pick out any form of hinduism or its practices anywhere, and I have found and identified some this left over garbage in many kerala Christians.
The Kerala pentecostal movement is divided, and wounded and led by arrogant and extremely racist people.
Why are their miracles and stuff? Because God is kind. Book of romans says, God gives his gifts without repentance. God gives it to them because no one else is out there doing this. They do have some good points, but ultimately
Love is important. Love for one another, without compromising God’s word
Let me leave it here
Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, [1 corinthians 13:4]
We are faced with 800 million Hindus who have never heard the gospels or stepped in problems, and the kerala pentecostals are at war with each other, tearing each other down, and drawing each other’s blood out , boasting how holier they are than others.
Defend the Word of God, I am with you but if you attack someone else for thinking differently, you are worse than an Islamic terrorist.
God bless
Ashok
(67 years old), Brahmin to Born again Christian(27 years)
LIFE OF SIMPLICITY. WHAT DOES IT MEAN?
Frequently, Pentecostals use the word “simple-life” to justify certain of their practices. By “simple-life”, they mean the following:
• Wearing white saree, white dhoti, white shirt and white Jibba.
• Abstaining from jewels.
Interestingly, the Buddhists in the Indian sub-continent followed such practices and during the days of Jesus, the Pharisees had similar practices. Pastor Alwin and Paul were probably influenced by the abundance of Buddhists in Ceylon.
Thus by the above practices, the Buddhists and Pharisees brought spirituality to an “external” display.
WERE THESE PRACTICES OF PENTECOSTAL BELIEVERS “CONSISTENT” TO THEIR BELIEFS?
The Pentecostal believers who spoke about simplicity and abstained from jewels also did the following:
1. Got overseas jobs for better salary.
2. Had lakhs of money in their personal account.
3. Immigrated to modern countries for a better living.
4. Got the best education to earn a luxurious amount of money.
5. Purchased the best set of coat, suit, silk sarees and pullovers.
6. Built better houses with the best furnishing.
7. Ate the best food.
Moreover, even the TPM workers have many Millions in the TPM Trust! Land and buildings whose value alone amounts several Billions across the globe!! No more “faith for rice or jeerakam” needed. They have “servants” to wash, cook, massage the legs; their dwelling place has carpeted floors, western closets and toiletries; food includes Chicken-in-coconut-milk Kerala menu; They dress in Cambrique cotton jibbas and sarees; have cars with A/c; they use sunglasses, Singapore towels, VIP suitcases and bags, bathroom slippers, cots with cushion mattresses, fruit juice at regular intervals, regular laundry of curtains, Bed sheets and pillow covers, china dishes and cups, machines for Grinding, mixing and juice-making. The list could continue!
Not satisfied with the above, the TPM believers happily blame the non-TPM pastors of not living “simple” when they have failed to “see’ the above inconsistency!!!
WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY?
However, 1 Samuel 16:7 says, “But the LORD said to Samuel, “Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.”
The above verse sums up God’s nature. Moreover, God is unchanging in His nature. Even now, He looks at the heart and not the external appearance.
In total disregard to the above, even Christians who call themselves Pentecostals and anointed with the Holy Spirit have miserably chosen to “inconsistently” “display” their spirituality and righteousness externally rather than internally nurture the “priesthood calling” that God had given them.
NOW, TO WHOM WAS SIMPLICITY EXHORTED?
A) Firstly, the apostles exhorted the Christians to be simple as they were new in their faith and did not know how to handle prosperity. Those Christians were focusing & bragging about prosperity instead of the “crucified Christ” and thus ended up trusting prosperity and also ended up in sin.
Now, however, God has flooded the church with His knowledge. Thus, God primarily expects us to be strengthened “inside” rather than make an “inconsistent display” of “external piety”.
B) Secondly, simplicity is exhorted in the “evangelistic” context for both workers and believers. Thus, Paul says that we need to adjust our “external” practices, not in holiness, in order to bring unbelievers to salvation. This means eating and dressing, not immodestly, but similar to the unbeliever’s culture. For example, when sharing the gospel among Buddhist monks, refrain from jewels and when sharing the gospel among Hindus, do wear them. Eating pork when among the Chinese and refraining from, when among the Jews and Muslims. Being in a coat and suit when in the west and being in pants when evangelizing the Indians.
CONCLUSION:
1. Why not righteousness & religion be “internal” rather than be displayed on the external in an inconsistent manner?
2. Why not the preaching of the gospel be “externally” seen instead of a “show of piety”. Would the Pentecostals who are taught to listen to stories from pastors on Sundays understand this?
3. Why should “kootaaima” become an excuse to keep the believers as spiritual kids?
HOW DOES SATAN TRAP WORKERS?
If a worker teaches and trains the believers to depend on the Holy Spirit then the believers learn to start depending on the Holy Spirit.
A believer who has learnt to depend on the Holy Spirit will not depend on pastors wholly for spiritual food and encouragement.
However, what happens currently is that believers depend on workers and their Sunday morning sermons and bible studies. The believers find it very difficult to receive the spiritual food from the Holy Spirit directly as per 1 John 2:27.
It is this dependency on workers that has become very easy for satan to deceive the believers with false doctrines. All satan has to do is to induce false doctrines in the mind of the worker. Then when the worker starts to preach that false doctrine all the worker-dependent believers believe that false doctrine to be a word from God.
The next question is how do false doctrines enter the mind of workers? Workers who call themselves as full time pastors start focusing on believers for money and not on God. They start to feel insecure because they do not have a job of their own as Paul the apostle did.
They pretend not to ask for money openly but in their hearts, they start lusting for the tithe money of the believers. They also cover up their lust for money by dressing themselves in white clothing displaying a false humility.
Once they have started focusing on money in their hearts they start to cling on to the believer. How do they do that? They do that by making the believers to cling on to them.
How do they make the believers to cling on to them? By doing the following:
1. By preaching that they are melchizedek priests unbiblically and as to how great their calling is.
2. By preaching about the great sacrifices they did to become a pastor.
3. By preaching about their greatness of being a celibate worker.
4. By speaking ill of other denominations.
5. By creating a set of false doctrines just to show themselves to be superior.
Thus, instead of glorifying Christ they have ended up glorifying themselves just to enslave the believers to themselves. All for money!!
Ray,
I took your points.
All I want to emphasis is that “DONT LOOK ON MINISTERS, THEY ARE MERE HUMAN BEINGS”.
You have your own calling from God. Maintain your personal relationship with God and leave the reward for Him.
Secondly, you said that the Organisation is allowing their Pastors to preach the gospel in their own way. NO, CERTAINLY NOT. There are many strict actions taken against those Pastors who had erred in their speech, action or life. All these things does not come out. If you are not a minister, you will never know the happenings inside. 99% of the believers also don’t know about these incidents.
Let me ask you a straight question? Have you ever heard of a Female Minister, especially a 50 years above aged Sister (basically called as Mother) becoming pregnant and that too delivered the child in the toilet, murdered and dumped in the toilet???? IF NOT, YOU DONT KNOW ANYTHING !!!!
I know even much more worse thing happening. None of those incidents have shook me, because bible says that all such kind would happen in last days; nothing to be astonished about. But we are not suppose to look them. Everyone will receive to what they do.
We should look to our author and finisher of our race, who is JESUS. If Jesus did anything wrong, we too can do. And if He did no sin, we all are suppose not to do.
Hence, I would like to emphasis once again that please don’t look to Pastors and Mothers of any denomination.
Hope this helps,
Regards
JACOB
Hello again, Jacob.
You said…
Ray,
I took your points.
All I want to emphasis is that “DONT LOOK ON MINISTERS, THEY ARE MERE HUMAN BEINGS”.
I say…
You keep repeating this, but I think I’ve already stated that I don’t. The fact is that I am a minister myself and a teacher at a Baptist school and I wouldn’t want anyone to look at me other than an example (1 Peter 5:3), and I pray that God continues to work in me so I can be a better example.
You said…
You have your own calling from God. Maintain your personal relationship with God and leave the reward for Him.
I say…
Yes, I know.
You said…
Secondly, you said that the Organisation is allowing their Pastors to preach the gospel in their own way. NO, CERTAINLY NOT.
I say…
No, I never said that. Again, you seem to be misunderstanding what I was saying. What I said is that the organization teaches the doctrines which the TPM ministers are enforcing. Thus, if they apply pressure not to see doctors it is because the organization has told them so. If they ordain or stop a marriage, it is because the organization allows them to do so. I would dare to say that the Pastors cannot and will not think for themselves. Everything is based on the interpretations of Pastor Paul or other ministers throughout the years. Again, going back to my friend, the one that was dying of encephalitis, when I questioned his Faith Home pastor, Brother Chuck, about his misuse of 2 Chronicles 16:12, he didn’t know what to say. When I showed him that “perfection” isn’t contingent on what man does but what God does and then showed him 2 Kings 15:14 and 2 Chronicles 15:17, he didn’t know how to answer me. He wanted to call New Jersey (the New Testament Church headquarters in the USA), obviously to get an answer. He surely couldn’t think for himself, could he.
You said…
There are many strict actions taken against those Pastors who had erred in their speech, action or life. All these things does not come out. If you are not a minister, you will never know the happenings inside. 99% of the believers also don’t know about these incidents.
I say…
Of course there will be actions, especially if they don’t teach what TPM tells them to teach. And, sometimes, that’s not a good thing.
You said…
Let me ask you a straight question? Have you ever heard of a Female Minister, especially a 50 years above aged Sister (basically called as Mother) becoming pregnant and that too delivered the child in the toilet, murdered and dumped in the toilet???? IF NOT, YOU DONT KNOW ANYTHING !!!!
I say…
Are you talking about that awful movie “Agnes of God”? Or is this something that happened in the TPM movement? I fail to see your point here.
You said…
I know even much more worse thing happening. None of those incidents have shook me, because bible says that all such kind would happen in last days; nothing to be astonished about. But we are not suppose to look them. Everyone will receive to what they do.
I say…
Yes, there are worse things happening. But again, I fail to see what this has to do with the subject at hand. The issue is TPM and its teachings.
You said…
We should look to our author and finisher of our race, who is JESUS. If Jesus did anything wrong, we too can do. And if He did no sin, we all are suppose not to do.
I say…
No one is denying that, but I’m still wondering why you continue to focus on ministers. The issue is TPM and its teachings.
You said…
Hence, I would like to emphasis once again that please don’t look to Pastors and Mothers of any denomination.
I say…
I don’t. Again, the issue is TPM and their teachings.
You said…
Hope this helps,
Regards
JACOB
I say…
Jacob, as I told you in my last post, TPM has teachings that are false, both doctrinally and soteriologically. In my estimation, it is a cult because of its practices. I still don’t understand why you are so focused on the ministers. I don’t follow ministers, but Christ. The TPM ministers are pawns of the systems, just like many of the members are. So, please, let’s be realistic.
Peace,
Ray
Hello Ray,
I fully agree what you are saying here. There are many wrong teachings. And all people (people who can think about what they hear and verify against the word of God) will agree to it. Now there are lakhs and lakhs of uneducated who are just blindly following those wrong teachings, which is very sad.
What can be done about this known problem. Nothing! The only option is stay in the church, hear the teachings and verify against the word of God and listen to the guidance of Holy Spirit or leave the church. But if I leave the church and end up in another church with some other problem then again Iwill have to wander from church to church.
And I know every church is not perfect, it is us who have to be watchful these last days and be prepared to meet the bridegroom. It is us who have to be accountable for our souls and no church or teaching will defend that day when we stand before God. I keep focussing on these things and keep going.
God be glorified.
Hi Jacob,
I agree with everything you said, but I take exception to the following…
**What can be done about this known problem. Nothing! The only option is stay in the church, hear the teachings and verify against the word of God and listen to the guidance of Holy Spirit or leave the church. But if I leave the church and end up in another church with some other problem then again Iwill have to wander from church to church.**
I disagree. Something can be done. I would advise you to read Scripture without the biases many of us impose on it. I grew up in the Roman Catholic Church, lived a very Catholic life within a parish community. I remained a Catholic until my early adulthood. I was a faithful Catholic and believed that Scripture and Tradition (the liturgies, teaching of the fathers, etc.) comprised the “fullness of Truth”, but when I began to study Scripture it left me with a dilemma. I couldn’t figure out why Scripture disagreed and, sometimes, blatantly contradicted was taught to be “Tradition.” Furthermore, there were some historical issues that didn’t seem to support RC distinctives, such as purgatory. As I studied, I realized that I couldn’t submit myself to a system that contradicted the only tangible “theopneustos” (God-breathed) form of truth that we have, Scriptures! It was tough, considering I grew up a Catholic and it was a integral part of my culture (I am Puerto Rican). Not only did I have to leave the RCC, but I was looked down upon by my own family. Yet, the decision I made was to put God first.
Now, did I “wander from church to church.” Yes, for a time I did. During this period I went to New Testament Church (TPM) and, being a new Christian, I didn’t know much and still behaved like a Catholic. In other words, instead of learning my lesson and allowing God to guide my life, I submitted to the teachings of TPM in the very same way that I submitted to the Catholic Church. As I continued to grow in Christ, I started to see that TPM didn’t fair much better, considering that they seemed “godly” but imposed legalisms which left the individual devoid of any assurance from God. There are people there who live in fear of missing the Rapture, others who are – by their own power – trying to be “perfect” in order to attain New Jerusalem. There are people who are, under their own power, “consecrating” their lives, separating from their God-given responsibilities to their wives and children. There are people who cannot discern what is truth and are hanging on every word from an ordained TPM minister, rather than careful study of Scripture and prayer for understanding. There are people who go to TPM prayer meetings and confuse seeking God with heightened emotionalism. A cacophony of noise and involuntary actions are often confused as spirituality or a “move of the Holy Spirit.” All too often, TPM adherents are led down a road that leaves them dependent on TPM ministers and, thus, never know God in a true and meaningful way. Now, would I submit myself to something like this? Would I continue to show my support, however indirect, by going to their meetings? No, never again. And I would advise anyone to do the same.
I know that I can be very direct Jacob, but I don’t do so in a haughty manner. I say these things humbly, knowing that God will hold me accountable for anything done out of self or spite. What I do, I do for the glory of God and don’t hold any personal feelings against people or ministers in TPM, but I do believe that they impose unnecessary burdens on their adherents and, thus, they take away from what rightfully belongs to God.
Peace,
Ray
I’m sorry, Joel. I meant to address the post to you but addressed it to “Jacob” instead. A thousand pardons 🙂
Peace,
Ray
You cannot brand TPM/CPM as a cult.
Celibacy of Full Time Workers
It is their calling. (Matthew 19 – Eunuchs – for the Kingdom of God) If you want to marry, you can leave the Ministry and do so. There is no restriction. I know there are several TPM workers, who have left the ministry and are involved in ministry with other churches.
Divine Healing – James fifth chapter says: If somebody is sick, they have to call the elders of the church.
There are thousands of people die even after taking medicine. Do you blame the Doctor’s for it? So why just blame this church only?
There are thousands of cases (with diseases such as Cancer, Asthma and Diabetes have been healed by God…Still Medical Science is struggling to find permanent remedy/cure for these sicknesses). I have personally met such cases.
Of course nobody should claim, “We are perfect”, “We are Going to New Jerusalem and Zion” “We have the Deeper Doctrines”, because spritual pride may cause you to become a victim of satan.
If somebody can follow God closely (with whole heart) and without being forced by somebody or even by a Church, then God will accept your “Walk with God”
For your info I am not a member of this church or trying to defend them.
We have to just compare the doctrines with Word of God only.
To Joel Joseph,
In reply to your post that you wrote
“You cannot brand TPM/CPM as a cult.
Celibacy of Full Time Workers
It is their calling. (Matthew 19 – Eunuchs – for the Kingdom of God) If you want to marry, you can leave the Ministry and do so. There is no restriction. I know there are several TPM workers, who have left the ministry and are involved in ministry with other churches. ”
Answer : There are some members within TPM /CPM that behave like cults, trying to control other people. Most of them are converts from the lower strata of society, now they have sudden religious power, and religion is often used a weapon to control people, this sense of control is like a drug.
The bible also says,
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. [1 timothy 4:3]
And the bible also says again,
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; [1 timothy 3:2]
As far as staying single is concerned, its more of a “suggestion” by St Paul, because it kind of frees you from other responsibilities associated with having a family. But it is no where a command.
A family person can be an effective Christian witness, and someone THROUGH WHOM Christ works and transform the world.
—–
You said in your post
“Divine Healing – James fifth chapter says: If somebody is sick, they have to call the elders of the church.
There are thousands of people die even after taking medicine. Do you blame the Doctor’s for it? So why just blame this church only? ”
Answer : yes, I agree, very true. Now, God is able to perform miracles, but another miracle God has done, is to create the human brain. God’s creation is man. and Man has been led to discover medicines and other things which are made from plants and other materials found on earth, and its end purpose and intention is to cure the sick and help the people, that are made in the image of God.
God sees the intention of why one takes medicines, it is to help one self get better “the body is the temple of the holy spirit”, take care of this temple well.
There is nothing wrong in taking medicines, and any form of legal doctrine that says don’t take medicine = wrong, twisted theology.
The bible says
Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities. [1 timothy 5:23]
which seems to suggest that wine is a form of medication at times used.
One should moderate one’s life and Christianity is about moderation, and at the same time living in the Spirit and the Word. This is not for some pentecostal screaming pastor to decide who and how one should live, the WORD OF GOD and the HOLY SPIRIT decides that.
If this kind of foolishness and spiritual thuggery by certain pentecostals goes on, I am begining to wonder if some of the “persecution” they face at hands of Hindu gangs, are persecution at all or “induced and provoked persecution” for their “attitudes” and spiritual thuggery ?
makes one wonder…
I DO READ THE POSTINGS HERE AND FEEL THAT SUSAN AND RACHEL DO GIVE AN ACCURATE PRESENTATION BOTH ABOUT THE HISTORY OF TPM AND ABOUT THE FALSE DOCTRINES OF TPM.
IT IS BETTER TO UNDERSTAND THE FOLLOWING REGARDING TPM:
FIRST OF ALL, TPM BELIEVERS DO NOT WANT THE FALSE DOCTRINES IN TPM TO BE EXPOSED. THUS THEY LOVE TO “FEEL GOOD” ABOUT TPM RATHER THAN FACE THE TRUTH AND GIVE UP THEIR FALSE DOCTRINES.
THEY ALSO WANT GLORY TO GO THE WORKERS RATHER THAN TO GOD.
THEY JUST PRETEND TO LOVE TRUTH BUT IN ACTUALITY, THEY CRAVE TO SING PRAISES ABOUT THE CONSECRATION OF THE WORKERS.
TPM CRAVES FOR AN IDENTITY FOR THEIR DENOMINATION. THEY WANT TO PROJECT THEMSELVES AS “SUPERIOR”.
MOREOVER, THEY CRAVE TO KEEP THEIR BELIEVERS TOTALLY DEPENDENT UPON THE WORKERS LIKE SUCKLING BABES.
IT IS THE ABOVE ATTITUDES THAT HAS LED THEM AND FORCED THEM TO FABRICATE MANY FALSE DOCTRINES TO SUIT THEIR “FALSE IMAGE” WHICH THEY HAVE CREATED FOR THEMSELVES.
TPM WILL BE DELIVERED WHEN THEY GIVE UP THEIR CRAVING FOR “SUPERIORITY” AND THEIR CRAVING TO KEEP THEIR BELIEVERS LIKE BABIES DEPENDENT ON WORKERS.
MAY GOD OPEN THE EYES OF TPM BELIEVERS WHO VISIT THIS SITE ESPECIALLY THE YOUNG GIRLS AND BOYS WHO ARE DECEIVED.
DO PASTORS & APOSTLES NEED TO BE CELIBATES?
The TPM denomination claims the following:
1. That apostles and pastors would do better if they remain unmarried.
2. That TPM pastors are superior to pastors from other denominations.
3. Apostles should not be married or in case they are married earlier they should forsake their wives.
WHAT IS THE TRUTH?
Dear Brethren, 1 Timothy 3: 5 says, “(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?)”
Thus, God expects the people, especially those who lead and manage congregations, to be married and be able to manage their family.
Secondly, Jesus never commanded His apostles to remain unmarried. If He had required that apostles should be celibates, He would have selected unmarried people as apostles. However, Jesus chose married people as apostles.
Thirdly, 1 Corinthians 9:5 says, “5Don’t we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas[a]?
The above verse clearly states that apostles never forsook their wives but instead they took them along. Moreover, Paul the apostle claims, in the above verse, that he has a right to marry as the other apostles did.
Fourthly, in 1 Timothy 4: 1, 2 and 3 the Bible warns saying, “The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry…”
Thus, the Holy Spirit warns that in the last days, false teachers will forbid people to abstain from marriage. Beware of TPM which calls marriage as lustful and defiling.
DEAR BRETHREN,
1. IF MARRIAGE TAKES A PERSON AWAY FROM DEVOTION TO CHRIST THEN TPM WORKERS WOULD DO GOOD IF THEY GAVE UP THEIR MARRIAGE LICENSES WHICH THEY GOT FROM THE GOVERNMENT.
(HOPE THEY PRACTISE CHRIST-FANATCISM!! RATHER THAN JUST PREACH)
2. IF INCOME TAX OFFICIALS ARE APPOINTED BY GOD WHO APPOINTS DOCTORS? THERE WAS NO ANSWER TO THAT.
(IN FACT JESUS SAID THAT A SICK MAN NEEDS A PHYSICIAN. SO WHO APPOINTED A PHYSICIAN?)
3. IN TPM FAITHOMES YOU CAN SEE EXCELLENT “GRANDMA POTIONS” BEING PREPARED FOR WORKERS AND BELIEVERS WHEN THEY FALL SICK. PAS. A.C. THOMAS WAS GIVEN PROTEIN SUPPLEMENTS AND WATERBURY’S COMPOUND.
PAS. C. JOHN WAS PROVIDED WITH PORK BECAUSE HE SUFFERED FROM PILES. MAYBE “FAITH” FORGOTTEN DURING THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES.
4. TPM DOCTORS AND NURSES WHO PRESCRIBE MEDICINES (SORCERY ITEMS AS PER JIM) ARE GIVEN COMMUNION IN THE LORD’S TABLE?
IF DOCTORS ARE SIMILAR TO WITCH DOCTORS WHY DOES TPM GIVE COMMUNION TO THEM?
5. IT THE GOD OF THE ISRAELITES (JESUS) WHO SAID, “I AM THE LORD THAT HEALETH THEE” WHO AGAIN SAID THAT A SICK MAN NEEDS A PHYSICIAN. HOPE JIM REMEMBERS THAT!!
PLEASE THINK…AND YOU CAN SEE THE TRUTH.
It is mentioned in bible by sin you are born. Why you did not ask your father? you ask first. Then talk about TPM
Hi Joel Joseph,
You said…
**You cannot brand TPM/CPM as a cult.
Celibacy of Full Time Workers
It is their calling. (Matthew 19 – Eunuchs – for the Kingdom of God) If you want to marry, you can leave the Ministry and do so. There is no restriction. I know there are several TPM workers, who have left the ministry and are involved in ministry with other churches.**
The Bible only speaks of three types of “eunuchs”: Those who were born eunuchs; those who were made eunuchs (in servitude to the king); and those who make themselves eunuchs. Jesus speaks of this in Matthew 19:12 and qualifies His statement by saying “He that is able to receive, let him receive it.” There is nothing in Scripture which teaches that a husband is to conjugally separate from his wife as a norm for ministry. Nothing!! Unfortunately, this is the case with the ministers in TPM. In fact there are strict guidelines in Scripture detailing that a man must attend to the needs of his wife and vice versa. Even within Paul’s discourse in 1 Corinthians 7, he never even implies that a man should separate conjugally from his wife for the purpose of ministry and what he does say, he says by “…permission, and not of commandment” (1 Corinthians 7:6). There is no excuse for TPM to be casting burdens on married couples. There are many married men of God, men who are in complete servitude to God, and yet they are married and fulfill their obligations to their wives as God has called them to do. No one should have to “leave the ministry” to get married. It’s a silly and manmade doctrine that TPM has produced.
**Divine Healing – James fifth chapter says: If somebody is sick, they have to call the elders of the church.**
If we are going to stick to the wooden literality of the verses then that would mean that everyone the elders pray for will be “saved” and all would be “raised up.” Yet, we know this isn’t the case. Although we should all obey this mandate and anoint and pray for the sick, there is nothing in Scripture which even implies that we should refrain from doctors. TPM has caused many well-intentioned people to die due to their misinterpretations of Scripture. Jesus said it clearly, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick.” In other words, if one is not well, one needs a physician. TPM constantly misuses 2 Chronicles 6:12 to implant the idea that one shouldn’t seek medical help to be within God’s perfect will. TPM rationalizes that—for one to be “perfect”—they must trust God and God alone for healing. Yet, they don’t understand that the “physicians” Asa sought were not medical doctors, but pagan priests who used occult methods for healing. Furthermore, they completely ignore that Asa’s “…heart was perfect with the Lord ALL his days” (1 Kings 15:14; 2 Chronicles 15:17). Again, TPM is to fault for the death of many.
There are thousands of people die even after taking medicine. Do you blame the Doctor’s for it? So why just blame this church only?
**There are thousands of cases (with diseases such as Cancer, Asthma and Diabetes have been healed by God…Still Medical Science is struggling to find permanent remedy/cure for these sicknesses). I have personally met such cases.**
God is sovereign. He can do what He wants. If He wants to cure someone, He can. If He doesn’t want to cure someone, He doesn’t have to. Just because God can heal, it doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t see a doctor. I have seen healings and praise God for them, but again, it doesn’t mean that we can’t see a doctor. TPM has no Scriptural evidence to prove that one shouldn’t rely on a doctor. Again, it isn’t those who are well who need a doctor, but those who are sick.
**Of course nobody should claim, “We are perfect”, “We are Going to New Jerusalem and Zion” “We have the Deeper Doctrines”, because spritual pride may cause you to become a victim of satan. **
One doesn’t have to express these verbally to be accused of “spiritual pride.” TPM teaches a standard that imposes a “spiritual pride” via that standard. Yet, through over 2,000 years of church history, no one has taught that this standard is valid. They always preach a standard of “perfection.” They always preach a standard of attaining the “New Jerusalem and Zion.” They always preach a standard where they claim “deeper doctrines.” By doing so, they impose this belief INTO their members, thus producing a “spiritual pride” that is masked by false humility. During my days with New Testament Church (TPM) this was real. This was ALWAYS present.
**If somebody can follow God closely (with whole heart) and without being forced by somebody or even by a Church, then God will accept your “Walk with God”**
Yet, there is still a standard that we must follow, that being the written Word of God, the Scriptures. We don’t follow God via our own righteousness because, according to Isaiah 64:6, our righteousness is “filthy rags” (literally “menstrual cloths”). We follow God in “spirit and TRUTH” (John 4:23-24) and not by a way that seems right to the man (Proverbs 16:25). Besides, the issue isn’t what God will or won’t accept, but TPM’s misinterpretation of Scripture and the unnecessary burdens they put on their members, all done under their misleading concepts of “perfection”, “New Jerusalem and Zion”, and “deeper doctrines.”
**For your info I am not a member of this church or trying to defend them.**
Of which I believe much of it is indefensible.
**We have to just compare the doctrines with Word of God only.**
Which, I believe, I have done.
Peace,
Ray
To Churchmouse
Suppose I agree with you on the TPM philosophy or whatever English word you use.
I have a question for you but please do not answer immediately in the heat of the moment as you know blogging is just as talking and the Bible says that we have to give account of every word and it is written in the book of remembrance.
Suppose you die and go to heaven. While in heaven you come across TPM pastors and believers, what will you do?
I can see the anger, hatred, resentment in the blog that you are writing. Out of the abundance of the heart, word proceed from the mouth is the bible saying. Will you go to heaven, if you have these things in your heart?
Will you be able to live with them?
As you are a minister and a teacher, just think of who has benefitted with all this rhetoric.
I will repeat again
Read Acts 5:26-40
38And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
39But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
I would just say that be faithful unto your calling. If your calling is to be a minister or teacher of the Baptist then so be it.
Couple of wise saying I heard and practice –
Never throw dirt on other people as some of them may fall on you too.
Lead or follow or get out of the way so as not to be a stumblingblock.
Read Romans 14:4
Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
I THINK THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE MINISTERS IN OTHER DENOMINATIONS.
THEY ARE WRITING ALL THESE TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY HAVE SOMEONE JOINED TO THEIR GROUP.
I FEEL THIS IS THE ONLY REASON.
ELSE, WHY SHOULD SOMEONE FALL BACK OF TPM, LEAVING THEIR WORK ASIDE. WHY SHOULD THEY BE OFFENDED BY TPM.
AS A MATTER OF FACT, TPM IS THE LARGEST DENOMINATION IN PENTECOSTAL GROUP. IF SOMEONE AGREE TO THIS, IT ALSO CONFIRMS THAT THESE LARGER GROUP OF PEOPLE HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH WHATEVER THEY ARE TAUGHT AND PRACTISE.
SO, FRANKLY SPEAKING, I DONT SEE ANY REAL REASON BEHIND THIS BLOG AND THOSE WRITERS WHO SIMPLY ADD RUBBISHES.
REGARDS TO ALL
JACOB
**Suppose I agree with you on the TPM philosophy or whatever English word you use.
I have a question for you but please do not answer immediately in the heat of the moment as you know blogging is just as talking and the Bible says that we have to give account of every word and it is written in the book of remembrance.**
I’m not angry. I don’t know how you can determine that it is “heated” from a bunch of typed words. There is no animosity towards TPM, it’s members or it’s ministers.
**Suppose you die and go to heaven. While in heaven you come across TPM pastors and believers, what will you do? **
Rejoice! No one said that they were going to hell. If they make it to heaven, it will be only because of Christ, in spite of their teachings.
**I can see the anger, hatred, resentment in the blog that you are writing. Out of the abundance of the heart, word proceed from the mouth is the bible saying. Will you go to heaven, if you have these things in your heart?**
Hate? Resentment? Again, I don’t see how you can determine this from a blog. Again, there is no animosity towards TPM. I am just carrying out my responsibility as a follower of Christ to expose false doctrine.
**Will you be able to live with them?**
Do you mean in heaven? Of course! I pray that all the ministers and members will be there. However, again, it will only be because God is merciful and in spite of what TPM teaches. Those who knew they were teaching falsely, but negated it, will be held accountable. Overall, I don’t think I would notice anyone else but Christ, once I’m in heaven.
**As you are a minister and a teacher, just think of who has benefitted with all this rhetoric.**
The only “benefit” I see is that someone will be honest and realize that what I say is true. The things which I have spoken of are part and parcel of TPM and those who are members know what I’m talking about. I don’t have to be a minister or a teacher to carry out my responsibility as a Christian. And, by the way, this isn’t “rhetoric.” Rhetoric would entail that I misrepresented TPM. However, everything I’ve said about TPM is true. Nothing speaks better than experience and I was a member of TPM for many years. Now, you seem to have a tendency to judge my actions, but you haven’t attempted to refute what I’ve said. Instead of trying to judge me, when you don’t know me, why don’t you try to disprove what I’ve written about? Otherwise, it seems that the only rhetoric here is yours.
**I will repeat again
Read Acts 5:26-40
38And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
39But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.**
I don’t know what the verse has to do with me or TPM. Gamaliel was defending the Apostles and mention two insurrectionists, Theudas and Judas of Galilee, stating that they both fell. He told the Sanhedrin that—if they weren’t of God—they would fall too. This was the Apostles and not TPM. You cannot compare the two. Using your logic of the verses, why haven’t the Jehovah’s Witnesses fallen? Why haven’t the Mormons? Existence isn’t evidence that a denomination is God-sanctioned.
**I would just say that be faithful unto your calling. If your calling is to be a minister or teacher of the Baptist then so be it. **
If you want me to be faithful to my calling than you would understand why I must call false doctrine “false.” As a minister and teacher, God would hold me accountable if I close my eyes to what others teach.
**Couple of wise saying I heard and practice –
Never throw dirt on other people as some of them may fall on you too.
Lead or follow or get out of the way so as not to be a stumblingblock.**
Isn’t that what you just did? You threw dirt on me, considering you didn’t attempt to prove that what I say is false. You can’t just claim that someone has an agenda against TPM without first proving that what they say is wrong. Bro, take the log out of your own eye. I’m not speaking from non-experience, but FROM experience. I know what TPM teaches. I know the legalism it inundates their believers with. I know their issues with doctors and medicine. I know their issues with marriage. I know how their ministers, whether knowingly or unknowingly, set the dynamics that cause their members to become dependent on them, rather than practice any true spiritual discernment. And, most of all, I know how they misconstrue Scripture, reading their own preconceptions back into Scripture. Again, you seem to judge me, but you don’t attempt to prove that what I say is wrong.
**Read Romans 14:4
Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand**
Which is in the context of weaker brothers and how one’s liberty can cause him to be offended. Using your logic, I guess that I should not critique Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc. because, again using your logic, I shouldn’t judge what they teach, especially if they have a form of godliness. Using your logic, I guess the early church really got it wrong when they exposed the Arians, Pelagians, Gnostics, etc. and Paul got it wrong too when he rebuked the Galatians for falling away from the true gospel.
Bro, if you are going to judge my heart in the matter, make sure you know what you’re talking about.
Peace,
Ray
**I THINK THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE MINISTERS IN OTHER DENOMINATIONS.**
I said that I was a Baptist. There is nothing to think about.
**THEY ARE WRITING ALL THESE TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY HAVE SOMEONE JOINED TO THEIR GROUP.**
I write what I write because truth is important to me. I am not trying to get anyone to join my “group.”
**I FEEL THIS IS THE ONLY REASON.**
You mean that “truth” isn’t a reason?
**ELSE, WHY SHOULD SOMEONE FALL BACK OF TPM, LEAVING THEIR WORK ASIDE. WHY SHOULD THEY BE OFFENDED BY TPM.**
I’m on a two-week “Spring” vacation from school. TPM doesn’t offend me. It is their “TEACHINGS” which I find odd and not representative of orthodox Christianity.
**AS A MATTER OF FACT, TPM IS THE LARGEST DENOMINATION IN PENTECOSTAL GROUP.**
Maybe in India, but worldwide it is the Assemblies of God. They are the largest Pentecostal group. The size of a church doesn’t prove that they teach doctrine correctly.
**IF SOMEONE AGREE TO THIS, IT ALSO CONFIRMS THAT THESE LARGER GROUP OF PEOPLE HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH WHATEVER THEY ARE TAUGHT AND PRACTISE.**
Wrong! A church can be large and STILL teach falsely to a LARGE number of people. I don’t know how you would reason that size matters.
**SO, FRANKLY SPEAKING, I DONT SEE ANY REAL REASON BEHIND THIS BLOG AND THOSE WRITERS WHO SIMPLY ADD RUBBISHES.**
Frankly speaking, I don’t know why you posted this post. It proves nothing other than someone who judges without giving any reason why he judges. To make the claims you do without substantiating why you did it, says more about you than the people you judge.
Peace,
Ray
To Christian,
Moreover, even the TPM workers have many Millions in the TPM Trust! Land and buildings whose value alone amounts several Billions across the globe!! No more “faith for rice or jeerakam” needed. They have “servants” to wash, cook, massage the legs; their dwelling place has carpeted floors, western closets and toiletries; food includes Chicken-in-coconut-milk Kerala menu; They dress in Cambrique cotton jibbas and sarees; have cars with A/c; they use sunglasses, Singapore Towels, VIP suitcases and bags, bathroom slippers, cots with cushion mattresses, fruit juice at regular intervals, regular laundry of curtains, Bed sheets and pillow covers, china dishes and cups, machines for Grinding, mixing and juice-making. The list could continue!
“Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and all these things shall be added unto you”
This applies to everyone not just for so called “tpm workers”.
The above verse sums up God’s nature. Moreover, God is unchanging in His nature. Even now, He looks at the heart and not the external appearance.
Why dont you then, wear a banyan-torn jeans and goto office or preach the gospel?? Anways God looks within your heart?? Why arent you comfortable with the woman folks of your family wearing latest fasion clothes or even bikinis and move around?? Anyways God looks within your heart….??
Brother, “What you are from within reflects outside too, not only the behaviour but also the way you appear”
And the bible also says again,
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; [1 timothy 3:2]
1 timothy chap3rd is for them who got the calling after thier wedding; “should be husband of ONE wife” otherwise it would have been a LAW or a COMMAND as:—
“SHOULD BE MARRIED”….
Otherwise, if you say that it should be, then you are twisting the scriptures for the CHOICE. I also percieve it as “if the BISHOP should be husband of ONE wife”, THEN MAY BE…. “THE BELIEVERS IN YOUR CHURCH CAN HAVE MORE THAN ONE WIFE” what do you say ABOUT THAT… GOOD???? You percieve it that way AS PER YOUR CHOICE, and I percieve it as my way…
BUT REMEMBER… ITS NOT MY WAY OR YOUR WAY… ITS THE SPIRITUAL WAY AS PER THE PERFECT WILL OF GOD CONCERNING THE EXEMPLARY SPIRITUAL LEADERS.
As far as staying single is concerned, its more of a “suggestion” by St Paul, because it kind of frees you from other responsibilities associated with having a family. But it is no where a command.
A family person can be an effective Christian witness, and someone THROUGH WHOM Christ works and transform the world.
I think I explained about celibate-apostleship very well in my previous posts which you might have missed out. Even you agree that it was just a suggestion not a command and at the same time you also agree that St. Paul was highly zealous for Christ that he decided to live LIKE Christ. You also know that Christ remained celibate untill His crucifixion (unless u blive in the stupid story of Dan Brown). So whats wrong if someone has decided to live like christ as a celibate apostle just like St. Paul did???
To Mohan,
Thirdly, 1 Corinthians 9:5 says, “5Don’t we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas[a]?
Mohanji,
Read 1 Cor 9:5 again, THIS IS ONLY a question-“Dont we…??” NOT a command, NOT an order, NOT an advice, NOT even a suggestion. Do you need answer to this question which was answered??
Read on the following lines.. the entire chapter for the answers.
1 Corinthians 9: 12:
“Nevertheless, WE have not made use of this right, but we endure anything rather than put an obstacle in the way of the gospel of Christ.”
Again he says in 1 Corinthians 9: 15:
“15But I have not used any of these rights.”
NOT USED THE RIGHT to work, marry (to take a believing wife along with) etc etc…. as mentioned rather asked in 1 Corinthians 9: 1 onwards… BECAUSE IT WILL CAUSE HINDRANCE IN THE GOSPEL WORK as mentioned in the same verse. –
”But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ.”
To Rajan,
PLEASE THINK…AND YOU CAN SEE THE TRUTH.
Rajanji,
By saying “please think”, you are trying to convince. This reminds me of the IT Marketing Exec who often say “try and think”, “please try to percieve”, “if you think deeply, you can indeed…” You cant THINK and know the truth. Yes this is possible for those who try and study or analyse gospel as they do in the Bible Colleges. They study the gospel as they study Physics, Biology or any other subject. They come up with criticism and debates. They, like fools STUDY and ANALYSE the the Holy Word ending up in arrogance, dirty attitude towards fellow Christians, pointing fingers at others and NO PERSONAL-RELATIONSHIP with God.
PLEASE READ THE WORD CAREFULLY AND PRAY TO GOD THAT HE MAY OPEN YOUR INNER EYES OF UNDERSTANDING.
Cheers,
Jim
To Jim,
I am not the same guy named Christian who wrote about the singapore towels and fruit juices etc (heck who doesn’t use that these days in India?)
I say to you onething, You should have read from my post that I am not a reader of Dan Brown and I never said Jesus married, Do not make such blasphemous accusations on me.
If you wan’t to marry or not marry it is your choice, you can free up more time for full time ministry (dont’ end up sleeping with one of the women in the ministry if you can’t control your urges), or you can marry and serve God with your family. It is up to you.
It is faith in Jesus Christ, and grace of Jesus Christ that saves a person, not wether he wears a white shirt and white pants, and does not marry.
Not marrying wont make you a more holier person or give you “Extra heaven” than those who marry. It is your choice.
Don’t get too legalistic about it, and tell your screaming pentecostal pastors who like to control their folks instead of letting holy spirit control their folks, use cunningness, manipulation, spiritual blackmailing to keep them under their control.
Pentecostalism in kerala is a TOTAL WRECK and 70% of itis nothing but fake. The Baptist, Evangelical and Even some of the born again Catholics etc got better gentless and faith than you have.
You are the taleban of Christianity. Let me tell pentecostal mullahs like you once again, JESUS CHRIST IS LORD, AND ONLY FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST AND HIS WORD WILL SAVE YOU, NOT TPM KERALA period. I bow my knee before Jesus Christ, not before your Pentecostal Taleban Mullahs.
Bro Christian,
You are taking it in the other way round. You want to get offended so its that way. I never said you are a Dan Brown Reader… I said “unless you…”
and tell your screaming pentecostal pastors who like to control their folks instead of letting holy spirit control their folks, use cunningness, manipulation, spiritual blackmailing to keep them under their control.
Why should I tell them?? why dont you tell them?? As far as I know they dont control and blah blah whatever you mentioned up there. Infact to my amazement, a pastor who had come from Saudi Arabia last Tuesday, in Ville Parle Church (Mumbai), told not to clap hands and disturb others… but rather fill in the spirit… “you dont need to be clapping hands to get filled in the holy spirit”
They even scold us when we go to them for getting prayed again and again. They just blatanly tell us GO HOME and pray yourself with faith and grab the blessings from the Lord. They even tell us to go and preach the gospel and win the souls for His kingdom.
Pentecostalism in kerala is a TOTAL WRECK and 70% of itis nothing but fake.
I fully agree with that. Its all about show offs. They have got a Bible college there somewhere in a place called “Kumanatta” where young boys go and train their brain to exercise against the new soul’s perception and and all that which I mentioned up there.
“They, like fools are made to STUDY and ANALYSE the the Holy Word ending up in debates, arrogance, dirty attitude towards fellow Christians, pointing fingers at others and NO PERSONAL-RELATIONSHIP with God”
If you come across a Panjabi or a Himachal fellow Christian, they are far superior in faith than any other so called malayalee “Pastors” and malayalee Bible-college student. I have greater respect for North Indian and Maharastrian believers even though they have not read Bible as a whole from beginning to end. Its thier faith as a “mustard seed” which reflects BEAUTY in thier life and not so called KNOWLEDGE. We have so much to learn from them.
Even I am a malayalee, born in Kerela but brought up in Pune and now in Mumbai. Its since almost 7 yrs I’ve been away from Kerela now. But I never indulge too much into malayalee pentacostal discussions as I know its all show-off of thier pride of knowledge but reflects NOTHING in thier life.
TO ALL BLOG READERS AND WRITERS
WHOSOEVER BLAME A PERSON, AN INSTITUTION, A NATION, A RELIGION, A COMMUNITY, FINALLY IS AN ACCUSER.
AN ACCUSER HAVE NO PLACE IN HEAVEN. SATAN IS AN ACCUSER, WHO ACCUSES CHILD OF GOD, DAY AND NIGHT BEFORE GOD.
ALL YOU PEOPLE WHO ACCUSE ALSO FOLLOW SATAN’S PATH IN ACCUSING TPM’S DOCTRINE, TPM’S MINISTER ETC
NOW YOU MAY CLAIM, WE ARE HIGHLIGHTING THE WRONG DOINGS OF TPM (AS YOU CLAIM). BUT OPEN YOUR BIBLE AND SEE WHAT JESUS DID
A WOMEN WAS BROUGHT TO HIM CAUGHT IN WRONG DEEDS. ALL THE PHARISEES AND SADUCEES WANTED TO KNOW WHAT JESUS THOUGHT ON THIS. JESUS SAID, ” LET THE MAN THROW THE FIRST STONE, WHO HAS DID NO SIN”. NONE OF THEM COULD THROW. ALL OF THEM HAD SOME WRONG THINGS IN THEIR LIFE.
SIMILARLY, ALL OF YOU WOULD HAVE SOME SINS IN YOUR LIFE FOR SURE… SO …….I HOPE YOU UNDERSTOOD……
ALSO, JESUS KNEW THE WRONG THINGS OF THIS WOMEN’S LIFE. HE DID NOT HIGHLIGHTED IT. HE DID NOT PUBLISHED IT. NIETHER HE WANTED TO CORRECT HER BY TELLING HER THAT YOU DID WRONG. HE ONLY SAID ” GO IN PEACE, DONT DO IT AGAIN”.
SO, IF YOU GUYS ARE REAL FOLLOWER OF JESUS, YOU SHOULD NOT ACCUSE THEM OR HIGHLIGHT THEIR SINS AND MISTAKES (EVEN IF THEY HAD), RATHER PRAY FOR THEM THAT YOU TOO MIGHT BE SAVED.
I HOPE THIS BLOG HAVE NO FURTHER REASON TO CONTINUE AND NO READER OR WRITER HAVE ANY BETTER CLARIFICATION, BASED ON THE ABOVE MATTER.
REGARDS TO ALL
JACOB
Jacob,
You continue to prove my point. I don’t know if you are a member of TPM or not, but your behavior isn’t any different than their’s. Rather than give a defense, you appeal to emotions. You employ a fallacy, an appeal to pity.
Secondly, you misuse Scripture by bringing up something which has nothing to do with the issues. The woman was about to be stoned by sinners. This was Christ’s way of bringing attention to their hypocrisy. However, my intention has nothing to do with hypocrisy, but with false teaching. The Scriptures that apply are…
I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! (Galatians1:6-9)
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their OWN DESIRES, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. (2 Timothy 4:3-4)
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for REPROOF, for CORRECTION, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:16-17)
preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; REPROVE, REBUKE, EXHORT, with great patience and instruction. (2 Timothy 4:2)
And one that I would encourage everyone to do…
STUDY to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. (2 Timothy 2:15-16)
I would only encourage you to put aside your “feelings”, open your eyes and look at what’s going on around you. Look at the what is being taught and practice good hermeneutics and exegesis when interpreting Scripture. Don’t put your brain aside and rationalize “Well, these people are holy and know more than I do; therefore I must submit to their teachings.”
For we walk by faith, NOT by sight. (2 Corinthians 5:7)
Peace,
Ray
Jacob,
God bless you, PASKHE, namalku idu discussion cheyanum. So thanks to Rachel Chitra, we are going to discuss this deeper and so deeper, adondu orakam kanlchu poya, we are really for this.
And now we are not the satan here, but YOU definitely are the Taleban of Christianity, and workers of INIQUITY, learn what love is.
I have been involved in the T P M.
Dear ChurchMouse,
Dear Churchmouse,
I did not appreciate that you say ministers can’t think for themselves. I especially did not appreciate that you used Psa. Chuck as an example! First of all I would like you to know that th bible says that in the multitude of council ther is safety…so that my dear churchmouse is why he wanted to check w/ NJ! Not b/c he can’t think for hmself….You should appreciated the fact that he wanted to be able to give you the best answer so you wouldn’t be more confused!!! Also withe the ancient there is wisdom..so others who have been in the Lord could help..with the answer…When someone asks my son a question he does’t know…its only natural for him t ask me for my input,b/c I am older would be able to help. not b/c e can’t think for himself !!! So please don’t use peoples names on here & have people think wrong of them…
Dear Rachelchitra,
Well well….Hi there my Girl, My little Indian Atheist .
How r u doing? …. ha ha ha….ha ………..ha !!
U r indeed amazing. I had underestimated ur talents, but i’d have to agree that HE was the one who gave u that. Well all i had to was just change ur focus..
Huh silly Mortal woman, did u not read n learn ….in the creation of the world I did.. take the precious couple DOWN. By the time i was done with them, he who was made by the very hand’s of Love, turned rotten, stale & pail. ha ha ha …. Yes he lived for 900 yr, not knowing what if felt to be alive.
Tell me some thing, do u think Adm was a believer or an atheist after his epic saga…..
Do u think i would spare u?….u shadow of his former cell.
When i did not leave him, who was created by HIS hands.
u are not an asset to me, but yes a tool.
I have repeated history many times… once when the earth was new. & now in ur life. turning the creation against the creator.
I has told HIM, that it was all in vain to put efforts in to the dust of the earth & create. For what HE shall create i shall rule over.
Look…for 20 years… u looked at HIS face, but ;0) i was the one who stood before ur eyes, watching u fall a sleep..every night, feeding u with anger, nurturing u with HATE for HIM.
Hah u R ..the craft of my fingers, ur heart beats for me & me alone, that blood that runs in ur veins scream my name..
speaking of it…..Do u know what is my NAME ? .. ask ur
heart. in the beauty of silences…. .. u will hear a reverberation of my name.
I long to perfect u in my stature, my little Girl Daddy is biG bad n E**L.
Ur next state to do my will is ….. that u will feel that ur r just an multi- celled-organism, created by me formula of natural selection.. & have evolved. u r just an animal with the gift of speech & ****.
I abide in u & u in me… every time u look @ the mirror its not ur reflection but mine. Ur heart is my drawing board.. & ur body is my instrument. Oh what can i say.. but .. I’m in-Love with u.
HE still thinks that HE could take u away for me precious. but i promise Daddy is here to say…….ha .. ha ..HA.. HA..
i wont give u up… with out a FIGHT…
well even if i did loose u.. what does it matter ur still a multi- celled-organism created by Natural selection.
{Well… i just want to say a few lines to HIM..
hey U up there … if u want her come n her ….get her…}
Well my love,
have NO fear cos Daddy (evil) is hear(beside u 4 ever).
sign
(Hades)..
A.K.A – Daddy
PS: I’m an atheist too. ;0)
**I did not appreciate that you say ministers can’t think for themselves. I especially did not appreciate that you used Psa. Chuck as an example! First of all I would like you to know that th bible says that in the multitude of council ther is safety…so that my dear churchmouse is why he wanted to check w/ NJ! **
What is there to check with NJ about? Scripture is very clear on this. It states that Asa was perfect ALL of his life. That means when he sought the physicians, he was STILL perfect. Chuck had no REASON to check with NJ regarding something which Scripture was so clear about. He should have submitted to the Scriptural evidence rather than try to find an excuse from NJ. I was involved in TPM long enough to know that EVERYTHING is filtered through their upper authorities and, unfortunately, that means that they CANNOT decide for themselves. There is no allowance for the Holy Spirit to “illumine” them if they are only going to submit to these authorities without question.
**Not b/c he can’t think for hmself….You should appreciated the fact that he wanted to be able to give you the best answer so you wouldn’t be more confused!!! Also withe the ancient there is wisdom..so others who have been in the Lord could help..with the answer…**
And WHERE, pray tell me, is the INDIVIDUAL allowed to interpret Scripture for himself? There is nothing wrong with seeking godly men, especially those who have a proven track record of proper interpretation and advice, but this isn’t the case with TPM, considering their issues with doctors and marriage. Again, if Scripture is clear regarding Asa’s perfection, what is there to ask?
**When someone asks my son a question he does’t know…its only natural for him t ask me for my input,b/c I am older would be able to help. not b/c e can’t think for himself !!! So please don’t use peoples names on here & have people think wrong of them…**
That’s a bad analogy. A father and son’s relationship is vastly different than a minister and church member. Yet, in both instances, a father or a minister can be WRONG. The issue isn’t whether someone wants advice on a certain matter, but if something is being taught properly, truthfully, and without inflicting the preconceived bias they were taught. In this instance, Chuck saw that Asa was “perfect before the Lord ALL the days of his life.” Considering TPM’s stance on “perfection” and how this plays into one’s relationship with God, it becomes very clear that the “perfection” TPM teaches ISN’T the “perfection” Scripture teaches because Asa was “perfect” even when he sought the physicians. Chuck had no excuse.
In ending, “Chuck” is a first name. Many of the readers here won’t recognize him because there are many “Chucks” in this world. I forgot Chuck’s last name, but I will guarantee you that if I ever DO remember, I will post his last name also. I am not a compromiser and I will NOT play games with people who teach wrongly. I will expose false teaching for what it is and I will name those who teach them. Just like Jesus exposed the Pharisees and the Apostles expose the heretics, I will do the same. You shouldn’t allow your emotions to downplay what was evidently a WRONG situation.
Peace,
Ray
Dear Rachelchitra,
Well well….Hi there my Girl, My little Indian Atheist .
How r u doing? …. ha ha ha….ha ………..ha !!
U r indeed amazing. I had underestimated ur talents, but I’d have to agree that HE was the one who gave u that. Well all i had to was just change ur focus..
Huh silly Mortal woman, did u not read n learn ….in the creation of the world I did.. take the precious couple DOWN. By the time i was done with them, he who was made by the very hands of Love, turned rotten, stale & pail. ha ha ha …. Yes he lived for 900 yr, not knowing what it felt to be alive.
Tell me some thing, do u think Adam was a believer or an atheist after his epic saga…..
Do u think i would spare u?….u shadow of his former cell.
When i did not leave him, who was created by HIS hands.
u are not an asset to me, but yes a tool.
I have repeated history many times… once when the earth was new. & now in ur life. Turning the creation against the creator.
I has told HIM, that it was all in vain to put efforts in to the dust of the earth & create. For what HE shall create i shall rule over.
Look…for 20 years… u looked at HIS face, but ;0) i was the one who stood before ur eyes, watching u fall a sleep..Every night, feeding u with anger, nurturing u with HATE for HIM.
Hah u R..The craft of my fingers, ur heart beats for me & me alone, that blood that runs in ur veins scream my name..
speaking of it…..Do u know what is my NAME ? .. ask ur
heart. in the beauty of silences…. .. u will hear a reverberation of my name.
I long to perfect u in my stature, my little Girl, Daddy is biG, bad n E**L.
Ur next state to do my will is ….. that u will feel that ur r just an multi- celled-organism, created by me formula of natural selection.. & have evolved. u r just an animal with the gift of speech & ****.
I abide in u & u in me… every time u look @ the mirror its not ur reflection but mine. Ur heart is my drawing board.. & ur body is my instrument. Oh what can i say.. but .. I’m in-Love with u.
HE still thinks that HE could take u away for me precious. but i promise Daddy is here to say…….ha .. ha ..HA.. HA..
i wont give u up… with out a FIGHT…
well even if i did loose u.. what does it matter ur still a multi- celled-organism created by Natural selection.
{Well… i just want to say a few lines to HIM..
“hey U up there … if u want her, come n ….get her”…}
Well my love,
have NO fear cos Daddy (evil) is hear(beside u 4 ever).
sign
(Hades)..
A.K.A – Daddy
Dear Rachelchitra,
Well well….Hi there my Girl, My little Indian Atheist .
How r u doing? …. ha ha ha….ha ………..ha !!
U r indeed amazing. I had underestimated ur talents, but I’d have to agree that HE was the one who gave u that. Well all i had to was just change ur focus..
Huh silly Mortal woman, did u not read n learn ….in the creation of the world I did.. take the precious couple DOWN. By the time i was done with them, he who was made by the very hands of Love, turned rotten, stale & pail. ha ha ha …. Yes he lived for 900 yr, not knowing what it felt to be alive.
Tell me some thing, do u think Adam was a believer or an atheist after his epic saga…..
Do u think i would spare u?….u shadow of his former cell.
When i did not leave him, who was created by HIS hands.
u are not an asset to me, but yes a tool.
I have repeated history many times… once when the earth was new. & now in ur life. Turning the creation against the creator.
I has told HIM, that it was all in vain to put efforts in to the dust of the earth & create. For what HE shall create i shall rule over.
Look…for 20 years… u looked at HIS face, but ;0) i was the one who stood before ur eyes, watching u fall a sleep..Every night, feeding u with anger, nurturing u with HATE for HIM.
Hah u R..The craft of my fingers, ur heart beats for me & me alone, that blood that runs in ur veins scream my name..
speaking of it…..Do u know what is my NAME ? .. ask ur
heart. in the beauty of silences…. .. u will hear a reverberation of my name.
I long to perfect u in my stature, my little Girl, Daddy is biG, bad n E**L.
Ur next state to do my will is ….. that u will feel that ur r just an multi- celled-organism, created by me formula of natural selection.. & have evolved. u r just an animal with the gift of speech & ****.
I abide in u & u in me… every time u look @ the mirror its not ur reflection but mine. Ur heart is my drawing board.. & ur body is my instrument. Oh what can i say.. but .. I’m in-Love with u.
HE still thinks that HE could take u away for me precious. but i promise Daddy is here to say…….ha .. ha ..HA.. HA..
i wont give u up… with out a FIGHT…
well even if i did loose u.. what does it matter ur still a multi- celled-organism created by Natural selection.
{Well… i just want to say a few lines to HIM..
“hey U up there … if u want her, come n ….get her”…}
Well my love,
have NO fear cos Daddy (evil) is hear(beside u 4 ever).
sign
(Hades)..
A.K.A – Daddy
PS: I’m an atheist too. ;0)…..Happy Easter… i’ll c u @ home
I do not write to judge anyone. I never intended to judge you too. I am sorry if I gave you the impression. When I am quoting from something from the Bible it is not because TPM is referenced over there. Those are allegory which can be connected to any church / denomination. If you cannot see the parallel I am sorry I cannot help you there.
From what you are saying in this blog I get the impression that there is only one church that is true and perfect. I just want to know which church is that – is it Baptist?. Do you know why are there so many churches in the world? The teaching and the rules of each and every one of them is different. By your standard, all the other churches including Pentecostal are teaching false doctrines. And God has raised you as teacher so you can pin point their false teaching.
There is a reason God did not setup as single church as a perfect church. I do not think any churches has any wrong teaching even the Jehovah Witness. Do you think Jehovah Witness people will go to Hell? God raises up new churches by giving them a specific revelation about himself. If he reveals everything about himself to one church then they will become proud like the fallen angels.
Certain group of people believed on the Acts 2 chapter experiences and began receiving the Holy Spirit. This group were called the Pentecostal and the whole church world at that time began to criticize them and call them all kind of name including cult. If you read Acts properly you see all the (heightened trance-like euphoria during prayer meetings- your phrase). It was this same trance that Peter had before he went to Cornelius and Paul said the same thing about 3rd heaven. Because these Pentecostals believed and began to pray so that others too may have this experiences, now you see that somebody in every church is experiencing the power of Holy Spirit. When the Apostle’s received the anointing of the Holy Spirit, they made so much sound that people began to crowd around. (you can read it in the books of Acts). There are other same instances in the book of Acts. So there is nothing new in calling TPM or Pentecostal cult or other names.
If the TPM believes in the doctrine of Divine healing rather than Doctors then it their teaching. If you call these a false teaching then I will say that you have never experienced the power of God. You did not have the faith at the time of you child’s sickness because you were new and never knew about the God’s healing power. If you read the Gospel, most of the time, Christ went about healing people. Even after having so many examples about Christ’s power of healing, people are reluctant to trust him for healing of their bodies. That is ok. Everybody cannot trust in God for healing especially when they bodies hurt and the pain is unbearable. But TPM teaches it believer to trust in GOD for healing. There are few people in TPM who trust in God for healing and there are people also who do not trust in God for healing. Faith in God is your individual experience. Just because you do not have faith to experience God power of healing in your life does not give the authority to say that what TPM is teaching is false doctrines. Hebrew chapter 11 is all about Faith. In that chapter upto verse 35 it talks about how God helped them in every way but from verse 36 onward it talks about how people did not get their prayers answered but they received a good report. Some people get healed some don’t that is totally in the hands of God. He is a respector of no person.
Bro,
Somewhere in this exchange—what is being lost—is the reason why I decided to post what I have posted. There is no “personal” feeling involved; neither am I on a vendetta against TPM. All too often, people are too “protective” and cannot see past their own “feelings” to determine when something is wrong. Yet, as Christians, especially those of us who hold to Sola Scriptura, we must let the Scriptures weigh what is right and what is wrong. Yet, this is the problem here! That some are determined to defend TPM rather than understand why others feel negatively towards their doctrines and practices. Some argue with emotions rather than allow Scripture to weigh truth. Scripture becomes a byproduct and subservient to their emotions. But isn’t this also a problem with TPM? All too often, emotionalism is mistaken for a work of the Holy Spirit. Why do I say this? Because when one is more interested in defending a church, it is very probable that they would not be able to understand the issues brought up. Emotion rules the day and what really matters is lost.
No, there is no “perfect church.” The church is made up of imperfect people, so how can a church be perfect? Only Christ is perfect. Yes, I am a Baptist and I would never claim that Baptist theology is perfect. Yet, you are in error when you judge me as someone who is pointing out false doctrines amongst TPM and other Pentecostals. Let me tell you that if a Baptist church is teaching falsely (against Scripture) I would be the first to point it out. You don’t seem to understand that it isn’t about “churches” but about what Scripture teaches.
What separates you and me is that I believe there is only one standard for the Christian and that standard is the Bible. Paul the Apostle thought that the Gospel was very important. It was so important that he rebuked the Galatians when they fell into a “false gospel.” He said…
“I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!” (Galatians1:6-9)
Do you see how important truth is, bro? It is so important that Paul said that even if he or an angel preaches something other than the true gospel than LET HIM BE ACCURSED!! You asked about the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Well, let me ask you: Do they teach a true gospel? But you say that they are not teaching wrongly. Well, they don’t believe that Jesus is God, but a created being. Now is that true or false? Evidently, it is a false gospel and one that—like Paul said—is ACCURSED.
Don’t make this a “Pentecostal” issue. In critical thinking, that is called a “red herring.” I have many dear brothers and sisters who are Pentecostals and godly examples of Christianity. I am speaking, specifically, of TPM and their errors and not Pentecostals. I am speaking of the issues TPM has with medicine and doctors (which has caused many deaths amongst their members) and the issues with enforced celibacy and marriage. I have issues with TPM’s view of ministry, especially when it dehumanizes a believer and impedes their relationship with the Holy Spirit. This is nothing but legalism and brainwashing. Many TPM members cannot exercise their liberty in Christ and are completely dependant on their ministers. There is NO excuse for this.
I don’t know what Bible you’re reading but there is no “trance-like euphoria” on the part of any of the Apostles. I would dare you to show me any early writings corroborating your claim that the “3rd heaven” is a trance-like euphoria. The third heaven is just “heaven” (the first being the “sky”, the second being “space”, and the third being abode of God). This is further supported by vs. 4 which says he was in “Paradise.” Furthermore, it was a “vision” that Paul had and not some “trance-like euphoria.” I don’t know if this is what you are trying to say, but when Paul speaks of “inexpressible words, which is not lawful for a man to utter”, I hope you aren’t saying this is “speaking in tongues.” It can’t be considering that it is wrong for a man to “utter” (say) them. Thus, it must be that Paul was forbidden to repeat them.
Acts 2 does not say that they made so much “sound’ that people began to surround them. It says that they were speaking in “known” tongues because those who surrounded them UNDERSTOOD what they were saying. The miracle was in the fact that they were speaking in languages that were unknown to them before the miracle. This is nothing like a TPM meeting. The fact is that Paul wanted “order” in the church and wrote about it in 1 Corinthians 14. TPM goes directly against it because everyone is emotional, loud, everyone is speaking in tongues, etc. Again, it seems that you are reading your beliefs INTO Scripture rather than allow them to speak for themselves.
You said…
**If the TPM believes in the doctrine of Divine healing rather than Doctors then it their teaching. If you call these a false teaching then I will say that you have never experienced the power of God.**
So, if a person submits to the doctrine of TPM and dies there is nothing wrong with it because it is THEIR teaching??? Are you kidding me? Sorry, but it is a FALSE teaching and one that is based on a misinterpretation of Scripture and history. The Bible does not say that we cannot go to doctors and TPM misinterprets the pagan priests and their occult healing methods as medical doctors. The hypocrisy of the whole thing is that there are practicing doctors who attend TPM. Why doesn’t TPM stop them from practicing?
You said…
**You did not have the faith at the time of you child’s sickness because you were new and never knew about the God’s healing power.**
That’s ridiculous! I had faith, but I also knew that God gave doctors the knowledge to heal and that I could save my daughter’s life through those he gave the knowledge of healing to.
You said…
**If you read the Gospel, most of the time, Christ went about healing people. Even after having so many examples about Christ’s power of healing, people are reluctant to trust him for healing of their bodies. That is ok.**
That’s right! CHRIST heals people and Christ can continue to do so if He wills it. However, for TPM to instill false faith, contingent on “perfection”, is another part of a FALSE gospel. Only GOD can grant that kind of faith. This is why so many TPM members have died because they were basing their faith on TPM’s teaching rather than on Christ himself. TPM is wrong for urging believers “stand in faith” so that they can be “perfect” and creating a false faith that kills.
You said…
**Everybody cannot trust in God for healing especially when they bodies hurt and the pain is unbearable. But TPM teaches it believer to trust in GOD for healing. There are few people in TPM who trust in God for healing and there are people also who do not trust in God for healing.**
But the overall pressure, coming from TPM, is to practice a false faith that usually leads to the death of an individual. Let’s put that in the proper perspective.
You said…
**Faith in God is your individual experience. Just because you do not have faith to experience God power of healing in your life does not give the authority to say that what TPM is teaching is false doctrines.**
No, I say that TPM’s teaching on this matter is false because people are dying for no reason. Many attempt to attain a perfection with a false faith bred by TPM’s teaching when, in reality, their faith is a false one. Tell me, bro, where does Scripture teach that one can tempt God that way? Where does Scripture say that we should not go to doctors? Even Jesus said that it isn’t those who are well who need a physician, but those who are sick (Matthew 9:12). Give me examples throughout early church history where Christians neglected doctors for the sake of attaining a “perfect” faith. I’ll be waiting for your answer.
You said…
**Hebrew chapter 11 is all about Faith. In that chapter upto verse 35 it talks about how God helped them in every way but from verse 36 onward it talks about how people did not get their prayers answered but they received a good report. Some people get healed some don’t that is totally in the hands of God. He is a respector of no person.**
Hebrews 11 speaks nothing of physical healing, but of the faith of the Old Testament saints, including the trials they endured. It says nothing about their prayers not being answered, but only that they didn’t receive “the promise”, which is the atoning work of Christ on the cross. Christ had not yet come, thus they remained in Abraham’s Bosom until after His resurrection. Again, you are misinterpreting these things to mean what TPM teaches.
Peace,
Ray
The talibanization of Christianity has already been going on in western countries, go to small town america, you find screaming pastors like him
who do preach from the Word, but with the intention to demean, control, scream and demonize you if you dare to disagree with the pastor or don’t do what he says.
In America, they scream in churches against arab countries, and islam 24/7, glorify guns and army and death penalty etc etc, list is endless. Women get together, in groups and attack another woman in the group who disagrees, call her devil , and demon possessed etc.
Kerala has also begun this infection.
Its no longer the holy spirit, it is the Talebans within the Pentecostals who attack baptists, and catholics, where did Jesus say to attack others ? You follow your life and faith, and let other christians follow Christ also, you don’t impose your lifestyle or choice on others
They live by word and Spirit, but no, Pentecostal pastors have now begun to sharpen their swords, the Mullahs got their bibles ready and will declare you the SON OF SATAN , if you dare dare dare dare even…..display a hint of “independance”.
ShalomAlyeikum to the Mullah Pastors, do grow a nice long beard too and yeah don’t forget the headdo and an ak47. Bring some kerosene too, to pour it over your enemy so they can burn in hell more harder for disagreeing with you.
To the so called “helldaddy” Atheist, you are a disgusting invidual picking on a woman who has done nothing wrong to you, and has written her views without harming anyone else. You sound like a bitter TPM worker.
I DO READ THE POSTINGS HERE AND FEEL THAT SUSAN AND RACHEL DO GIVE AN ACCURATE PRESENTATION BOTH ABOUT THE HISTORY OF TPM AND ABOUT THE FALSE DOCTRINES OF TPM.
IT IS BETTER TO UNDERSTAND THE FOLLOWING REGARDING TPM:
FIRST OF ALL, TPM BELIEVERS DO NOT WANT THE FALSE DOCTRINES IN TPM TO BE EXPOSED. THUS THEY LOVE TO “FEEL GOOD” ABOUT TPM RATHER THAN FACE THE TRUTH AND GIVE UP THEIR FALSE DOCTRINES.
THEY ALSO WANT GLORY TO GO THE WORKERS RATHER THAN TO GOD.
THEY JUST PRETEND TO LOVE TRUTH BUT IN ACTUALITY, THEY CRAVE TO SING PRAISES ABOUT THE CONSECRATION OF THE WORKERS.
TPM CRAVES FOR AN IDENTITY FOR THEIR DENOMINATION. THEY WANT TO PROJECT THEMSELVES AS “SUPERIOR”.
MOREOVER, THEY CRAVE TO KEEP THEIR BELIEVERS TOTALLY DEPENDENT UPON THE WORKERS LIKE SUCKLING BABES.
IT IS THE ABOVE ATTITUDES THAT HAS LED THEM AND FORCED THEM TO FABRICATE MANY FALSE DOCTRINES TO SUIT THEIR “FALSE IMAGE” WHICH THEY HAVE CREATED FOR THEMSELVES.
TPM WILL BE DELIVERED WHEN THEY GIVE UP THEIR CRAVING FOR “SUPERIORITY” AND THEIR CRAVING TO KEEP THEIR BELIEVERS LIKE BABIES DEPENDENT ON WORKERS.
MAY GOD OPEN THE EYES OF TPM BELIEVERS WHO VISIT THIS SITE ESPECIALLY THE YOUNG GIRLS AND BOYS WHO ARE DECEIVED.
SUSAN AND RACHEL, KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK.
CAN CPM PASTORS AND APOSTLES MARRY ???
Firstly the founder Pastor Paul was a married man and
had children when in a faithhome. The celibate type of
ministry was introduced by Pastor Alvin, a sinhalese,
whose ancestors were Catholics. He changed
Paul’s vision into a catholic style ministry. Finally
this Alvin fell in adultery in France Faithome and was excommunicated
from CPM.
Secondly, Pastor Freddy Paul, son of the founder (Paul) had got many Pastors married. A leading example is Pastor
Manohar who is now in Jaipur faithhome. He has four
children. His wife is Sis. Lilykutty. Similarly the
founder Paul also got 10 Pastors married and they
lived in a marriage when in CPM ministry. The CPM
Pastors suppress these facts from the believers.
Thirdly, 1 Cor 9 vs 5 states that the apostles had the
authority to be married and that was why Pastors like
Manohar, Founder Paul, Pastor Joseph (Composer Sis.
Glory’s dad), Mother Arthur etc., were all in marriage
during their ministry. Celibacy was promoted to create
an identity for TPM and thereby preserve their
believers from leaving the denomination.
Fourthly, Moses who was a married man also was able
to see God face to face. All our dedication are as filthy rags before the Most Holy God. Hence let us brag about Christ and not about the TPM dedication. God can use a donkey for his ministry. Num 22:28. God wants someone who obeys Him and not our man-made dedication.
Fifthly, Pas. Raman Kutty Paul never had a vision of
buying lands and buildings for the church or in the name of a Trust. Their vision was to live in rented places and that was why they called it a faithhome. But now the same name is
used absolutely meaninglessly as people do not know
the earlier committment.
But now all rationalisations are provided but they do not want to part with the name “faithhome”.
I wish you are enlightened with the above and not fall a trap to the TPM’s self glorification of their consecration.
I encourage you to minister as you are a priest as per 1 Peter 2:5,9. There is only one High Priest who is Jesus. The 12 tribes of Israel had a calling to be a kingdom of priests as per Ex 19:6.
CPM Pastors will brag about their melchizedek consecration in their songs and sermons and will not reveal that you are a priest.
Brother Philip and John,
Posts you have posted are pretty old and copied. Many of them have repeated and repeated this very posts word to word ditto many times at many different occasions, eventhough I’ve clearly explained why “Celebate Apostleship” is the “Perfect will of God” as per the Holy Scriptures… I think you are ignoring all of them and diverting other’s attention.
Anyways you cant suppress the truth. This “pas. Ramankutty’s vision and blah blah has been already explained in response to which there were no posts. These posts are copied and are being pasted again and again. I dont know why. May be they are same people (Susan and Varghese girl) posting them posing as Philip and John.
Be reasonable. I dont understand why you say “CPM Pastors will brag about their melchizedek consecration in their songs and sermons and will not reveal that you are a priest.“. Is it an innovative way to start a new religion of your own?? Many people are doing it. You can also start a new church for sure in this evil way..
We always had been taught the other way round that we are all priests and should pray ourself for any need.
Again you are quoting “1 Cor 9 vs 5 states that the apostles had the authority to be married” for NO reason at all.
Can you please point me where is it mentioned??? Where is it mentioned that the Bishop “SHOULD BE MARRIED”??? Read my earlier posts for a precise understanding of 1Timothy 9th Chapter.
Cheers !!!
Jim
Hi Jim,
I hope that you don’t mind my butting in, but there are some things you mentioned that peaked my curiosity as to the way you interpreted them. For instance, you assumed that the “perfect will of God” is a “celibate apostleship.” Well, if that is the case, wouldn’t you be assuming that Peter, and the other married Apostles, practiced celibacy so as to remain in His “perfect will”? If yes, where is the Biblical evidence that this was the case. Furthermore, where is the Biblical evidence that God sees celibacy as part of His “perfect will” for ministers?
You mentioned that Scripture doesn’t say that a bishop should be married. This is true. It doesn’t. However, Scripture doesn’t say that they cannot be married and it surely doesn’t say that ministers should “consecrate” their lives by practicing celibacy. Rather, Scripture states that husband and wives can separate for a time in servitude to God, but they are to come back together again per 1 Corinthians 7:5. And Scripture NEVER put authorities in the position of enforcing celibacy as the rule for ministry, as they do in the “Faith Home.”
Peace,
Ray
To Churchmouse,
What is going on here is anti-TPM people all trying to interpret according to their own understanding. You are trying to prove that your thinking is correct what the believers (in millions around) of TPM are wrong. The words of wise Solomon “in the multitude of counselor there is safety.”
“Let me tell you that if a Baptist church is teaching falsely (against Scripture) I would be the first to point it out.” This is what every Christian will say about their churches so there is no value to that sentence.
I do not believe in the doctrines of Jehovah witness but I am not the one to judge them. It is like the Jews or any other religion who does not believe in Christ. They believe in the Jehovah God and they are willing to lay down their life for their faith. You are calling their devotion to their God accursed by simply bringing in the St. Paul in the middle. You employ the same tactics that all Christian employ to protect their views. I always hear the saying that Heaven will be full of surprises.
“What separates you and me is that I believe there is only one standard for the Christian and that standard is the Bible.” You are correct about this. But the Bible speaks to each individual differently unless you read and accept them as it is. When the Holy Spirit comes he will teach you all things. So according to your understanding and your ability to accept things the Holy Spirit will teach each one. So if you go with a preconceived notion before God you will not learn anything new that will take you to higher experience.
“That’s ridiculous! I had faith, but I also knew that God gave doctors the knowledge to heal and that I could save my daughter’s life through those he gave the knowledge of healing to.” Yes I have that statement a lot of time. You had faith but you decided to trust in the knowledge of man. The psalmist says that it is better for me to trust in the Lord than to trust in man. I am really sorry that you feel that it is better to trust in the knowledge of the doctors and die in the hospital waiting for bodily deliverance then for a person to die waiting on the lord for healing. Even if I am not able to stand for healing I will definitely encourage people who are standing for healing from whether it is in TPM or any other church.
“No, I say that TPM’s teaching on this matter is false because people are dying for no reason.” If you call people who die because of waiting on God for healing as dying for no reason then I do not know what you will call the people who die as martyrs for Christ. If I am not mistaken all the Pentecostal have the same understanding about divine healing.
You are correct this is what separate you and me and not only us but also our churches – Faith in God not only for my spiritual need but also for physical and bodily need. This has nothing to do with perfection. This shows how little your knowledge about TPM is. A famous saying –Little knowledge is dangerous. This is just a small portion about our differences. We have the same principles about everything. When we trust God for something we try to be consistent and not pick and choose like some people do. Many people are experiencing the power of healing in various places of the world and many people (not TPM) are willing to trust in Christ for their bodily healing. So your not believing in God the creator but in the knowledge of the creature and trying to demean them is pathetic (sorry for the strong word).
The Bible says that the people that do know their God shall be strong and do EXPLOITS. You say you know about TPM but you are trying to take bits and pieces of what you heard during your short time and make it into a snowball effects.
I do not see any consistency in your argument. First you call us cults and then you say that you never said that they will not go to Hell and willing to treat them as buddies in heaven. “There is no “personal” feeling involved; neither am I on a vendetta against TPM.” But I see the old wounds coming out.
There is a common proverb that a man who does not know how to dance will blame the unevenness of the ground. Since you will not understand how it relates to TPM. I will explain that people like you (and others few selected) who cannot understand TPM’s doctrine, leave the church and then start accusing them always blames the institution rather than acknowledge their own lack of understanding.
To bro,
I can’t speak for everyone but I know that I speak from my experience as a TPM member, so you really can’t downplay what I stated. I do understand TPM because I experienced TPM and, unfortunately, everything I stated is true. I am very use to TPM members decrying my statements and extolling TPM, but when all is said and done, those who are members will have to admit that there are problems in TPM’s doctrinal teachings. To misuse Proverbs 24:6 (…multitude of counselors…) is unwise considering many cults would do the same. You need to quit misusing Scripture and, instead, be a faithful Berean, comparing TPM’s doctrines to what Scripture teaches.
You said…
“This is what every Christian will say about their churches so there is no value to that sentence.”
You’re kidding me, correct? Has it ever occurred to you that Scripture calls us to reveal false doctrine? This would mean that if any church, Baptist, Pentecostal or otherwise, taught heresy, we are to expose it and condemn it. So, please, don’t be flippant about this.
You said that you won’t judge what Jehovah Witnesses believes. Again, I wonder what Bible you’ve been reading. Have you read Galatians 1? If someone is teaching a false gospel, they fall under the condemnation of Paul’s words in Galatians 1. Paul stated that—even if he were teaching a gospel other than the original one—let HIM be accursed. Yet, you want to ignore the false gospel of the Jehovah’s Witnesses? You really don’t know Scripture do you.
You said…
“You employ the same tactics that all Christian employ to protect their views. I always hear the saying that Heaven will be full of surprises.”
It seems to me that you are the one protecting YOUR views, considering I’m not defending anything Baptists teach, but only my negative experiences with TPM and the lies perpetuated by some of their ministers. The views regarding marriage and doctors are things which Scripture doesn’t teach; neither did the earliest church promote it.
You said…
“But the Bible speaks to each individual differently unless you read and accept them as it is. When the Holy Spirit comes he will teach you all things. So according to your understanding and your ability to accept things the Holy Spirit will teach each one. So if you go with a preconceived notion before God you will not learn anything new that will take you to higher experience.”
So, what you are saying is that God is the author of confusion, correct? Because, according to you, the Holy Spirit can lead us into differences that do not harmonize with the rest of Scripture. Even though Scripture tells us to “rightly divide the word of truth” (2 Timothy 2:15) and commends the Bereans for “searching the Scriptures daily” (Acts 17:11), you believe that Scripture should be accepted at face value. Well, if that is the case, then I guess I should accept 1 Timothy 4:1-3 at face value and condemn TPM’s teaching on marriage as a “doctrine of devils.” Again, it seems that you want to throw caution to the wind and this only proves to me that you really don’t know what you speak of.
You said…
“Yes I have that statement a lot of time. You had faith but you decided to trust in the knowledge of man. The psalmist says that it is better for me to trust in the Lord than to trust in man. I am really sorry that you feel that it is better to trust in the knowledge of the doctors and die in the hospital waiting for bodily deliverance then for a person to die waiting on the lord for healing. Even if I am not able to stand for healing I will definitely encourage people who are standing for healing from whether it is in TPM or any other church.”
Your statement here proves to me that you are ignorantly indoctrinated into what TPM teaches as “faith.” You ignore verses such as Matthew 9:12 and ignore facts such as Luke being a physician himself. You parallel “faith” and “perfection” as walking hand in hand, but ignore that Asa was “perfect” in God’s eyes, even though he sought the physicians. You ignore that, historically, the “physicians” Asa sought were not doctors, but pagan priests who used occult practices for healing. You ignore that Paul, who was full of faith, had a “thorn in the flesh” (2 Corinthians 12:7) and was never healed. You ignore that he told Timothy to use “wine” as medicine “for thy stomach’s sake” and for his frequent “infirmities” (1 Timothy 5:23). I guess Timothy and Paul just didn’t have the “faith” for healing as well. Again, don’t use Scripture flippantly, as you did again here, but “rightly divide” it. I’m sure the reader can see that I use Scripture to prove what I speak of rather than use it as an emotional tool. Do you have a Scriptural answer to counteract anything I’ve stated? So far, you haven’t provided anything.
You said…
“If you call people who die because of waiting on God for healing as dying for no reason then I do not know what you will call the people who die as martyrs for Christ. If I am not mistaken all the Pentecostal have the same understanding about divine healing.”
This is a false comparison. People who die when they could have gone to a doctor for healing CANNOT be compared to those who died for proclaiming their faith in Christ. And, yes, you are mistaken because the majority of Pentecostal churches DO NOT teach that going to doctors shows a lack of faith. Neither do they teach that perfection is contingent on proving your “faith” by inviting death. No, TPM, as well as some other cults, are alone in this.
You said…
“You are correct this is what separate you and me and not only us but also our churches – Faith in God not only for my spiritual need but also for physical and bodily need. This has nothing to do with perfection. This shows how little your knowledge about TPM is. A famous saying –Little knowledge is dangerous. This is just a small portion about our differences. We have the same principles about everything. When we trust God for something we try to be consistent and not pick and choose like some people do. Many people are experiencing the power of healing in various places of the world and many people (not TPM) are willing to trust in Christ for their bodily healing. So your not believing in God the creator but in the knowledge of the creature and trying to demean them is pathetic (sorry for the strong word).”
Again, either you are not familiar with TPM’s teachings or you are misrepresenting them. TPM teaches that “perfection” is contingent on faith. If one is dying of cancer and “trusts in God for his healing” and then dies, TPM claims that this is accounted as a perfect faith. And, no, TPM is not consistent. When they stop brushing their teeth, having faith that God will not let them decay and keep them white, they aren’t truly having “faith” in God. Until TPM’s ministers stop wearing glasses and trusting their astigmatism, myopia, etc. to God’s healing, they truly aren’t practicing “faith” in God. Consistency is NOT a TPM strong suit. It is hypocrisy. No one is trying to “demean” TPM, but rather exposing their false and inconsistent teachings. It seems to me that you spend more time defending TPM rather than defending what Scripture teaches.
You said…
“The Bible says that the people that do know their God shall be strong and do EXPLOITS. You say you know about TPM but you are trying to take bits and pieces of what you heard during your short time and make it into a snowball effects.”
You keep saying these things, but you don’t say where the Bible says what you claim it says. Furthermore, I know that you will probably toss a Scripture in that has nothing to do with the subject at hand. I was with TPM for more than a “short time”, so please don’t attempt to demean what I’m saying. Furthermore, I keep on pressing the point that I have EXPERIENCE with their false teaching, not only with my daughter, of which the Faith Home tried to impress that I not take her to a doctor, but when they attempted to stop my marriage, claiming that it wasn’t God’s will. Well, just to show you how “off the track” they were, we will be celebrating our 25th anniversary this October and we’ve had 4 wonderful children. Again, it is EXPERIENCE that counts and not emotional appeals, justifying their actions.
You said…
“I do not see any consistency in your argument.”
Actually, my argument has been very consistent, scripturally and experientially. You, on the other hand, have yet to prove that TPM isn’t guilty of these practices and Scripture is just a frivolous tool to you, used to demean your opponent rather than to support your argument. That’s become very evident.
You said…
“First you call us cults and then you say that you never said that they will not go to Hell and willing to treat them as buddies in heaven. “There is no “personal” feeling involved; neither am I on a vendetta against TPM.” But I see the old wounds coming out.”
It seems that you spend so much time misrepresenting my argument that you can’t understand that God calls us to expose false doctrine, using the time-tested proven methods of Scriptural exegesis and hermeneutics. There is nothing “personal” here. There are no vendettas. I am just a servant of God exposing the false doctrines of TPM. How do I know about these false doctrines? Because I’ve grown as a Christian and realize that my past experience with TPM anchors my firm stance in orthodoxy. I can do what God calls me to do or I can ignore God in this matter. I chose the former. I will do what God calls me to do.
You said…
“There is a common proverb that a man who does not know how to dance will blame the unevenness of the ground. Since you will not understand how it relates to TPM. I will explain that people like you (and others few selected) who cannot understand TPM’s doctrine, leave the church and then start accusing them always blames the institution rather than acknowledge their own lack of understanding.”
Instead of appealing to proverbs and demeaning our experiences with this cult, why don’t you exegete Scripture and prove me wrong. As I stated before, Scripture is above all and, if you cannot use it to refute my position or my claims, then all you have is emotion and that will not get you very far.
Peace,
Ray
Bloody hypocrytes !!!! All of them.. Gandhiji was so right, Christianity is a religion of hypocrytes, with all of them trying to showoff as better than others.
who is following Christ here?? If anybody here comes in front of me face to face and says “I follow”.. I would smash the head of that bloddy hypocryte.
This blog is not only nonsense but also the biggest stupidity and a blot on ‘wordpress blogging community’. There are many reasons for this. First of all, the blog owner is an athiest; some rachel chitra whatever and there are others who say they are good christians than others. And some others who are advocating they are better Christians than others. And some of them, who advocate that they are the best. funny indeed… !!!
Most of all, this is still a confusion for me, why the hell an athiest set up such a blog???? Its crystal clear that the cause of the owner of this blog being an athiest is because of this church tpm (seemingly very much traditional conservative church of jewish christians). And that bitterness and hatred for this church led this Rachel Chitra to create such a blog. And then as I mentioned earlier, a bunch of foolish hypocryte christians putting up masalas and garlic to this foolish blog.
You all hypocrytes will die, and must die from the hands of true hindustanis. You all dont deserve to be even breathing on the land of India.
As I stated before, Scripture is above all and, if you cannot use it to refute my position or my claims, then all you have is emotion and that will not get you very far.
Brother Ray ,
Why dont you approach a TPM pastor and ask him for those scripture… If you think they are the source of all this cult, why dont you ask thm directly?? why us?? I’m very sure a day in discussion with any TPM pastor will change your perspective and perception about TPM church for a lifetime.
Next thing you do.. meet a tpm pastor and discuss. If you have not, then I would say you are showing off your spiritual knowledge come out of pride to a bunch of fools here rather than talking to experts. You know they say “a man with literacy is king in the land of illiterate”.. So here we admit.. all of us from TPM are illiterate and fools.
Cheers !!!
Jim.
Hi Jim,
You said…
**Why dont you approach a TPM pastor and ask him for those scripture… If you think they are the source of all this cult, why dont you ask thm directly?? why us?? I’m very sure a day in discussion with any TPM pastor will change your perspective and perception about TPM church for a lifetime.**
I’ve already done that. I’ve gotten various responses, but all seem to center on some form of Christian mysticism that relies on verses pulled out of their context. All too often, if I try to correct via Scripture, they want to get on the phone or look at me as if I have frogs coming out of my ears. It is hard to correct an indoctrinated individual who relies on “feelings.” The ironic thing is that TPM encourages that we don’t rely on feelings, yet the overwhelming majority of their meetings are emotionally-based. Yet, the bottom line is that I have spoken to various “Faith Home” ministers here in the USA and they have only strengthen my belief that many cannot think for themselves and the enforced “lifestyle” they follow only leads to emotional dependency.
You said…
**Next thing you do.. meet a tpm pastor and discuss. If you have not, then I would say you are showing off your spiritual knowledge come out of pride to a bunch of fools here rather than talking to experts. You know they say “a man with literacy is king in the land of illiterate”.. So here we admit.. all of us from TPM are illiterate and fools.**
To say that TPM as “illiterate and fools” comes off as false humility considering their stance regarding the heirarchy of believers and their status in the afterlife. In other words, it boggles my mind that one would use such words to describe themselves and then commit to teaching an eschatology that puts themselves high above the “average” Christian in the kingdom. No one is “showing off”, but rather OBEYING the command of Galatians 1 in preaching a pure, unadulterated gospel. Why is this so hard to understand? And why is it that much of the responses from TPM supporters center on subliminal personal attacks rather than Biblical interaction? It surely doesn’t look good for TPM if this is the only way their members respond.
Peace,
Ray
Amit,
The only thing I can say is that any religion can have hypocrites in their ranks, including Christianity. However, judging by the tones of your post, I would rather be a Christian, a million times over, than someone who spews out the hate you exude in your post. You can say what you want about Christianity, but regardless of the people, Christ STILL sits on the throne and you WILL meet Him someday. I can only hope that you will come to know Him while you are here, rather than have to face Him when you meet Him there. I’m sure you will have many hypocritical “Christians” keeping you company on the way down.
Hi Friends,
I am not a born TPM believer but my parents started going to TPM church when I was studying 7th standard. And from now on God id providing everything as per his glory to our family. Still i am not a TPM believer(but my parents are), but i belive in christ and appreciate the pastors and believers to live a different life amidst this bad world. There might me some guys in church who are bad but its not all guys(after all we are all human being and not living in heaven). So rather commenting on some church ,just try to understand where you stand in christ. try to check are you and ur heart is good and close to God. Honestly I am not.But i pray to God to make me a good child of him. Whereever we are and whichever church we go….just read the bible and try to atleast not comment on another people will n wish as you have lot more things to do on ur life to make u better in christ.It should be just u and ur god and ur bible. I think that will force you to pray and build relationship with God almighty,so all these words of hatredness against anyone or any denomination will not even blink in you mind or in this blog..I love christianity and just wish to live in the doctrines of god which i am not doing right now. But i will try and i am trying…………Keep trying guys……..God Bless you…..
HOW DOES SATAN TRAP WORKERS?
If a worker teaches and trains the believers to depend on the Holy Spirit then the believers learn to start depending on the Holy Spirit.
A believer who has learnt to depend on the Holy Spirit will not depend on pastors wholly for spiritual food and encouragement.
However, what happens currently is that believers depend on workers and their Sunday morning sermons and bible studies. The believers find it very difficult to receive the spiritual food from the Holy Spirit directly as per 1 John 2:27.
It is this dependency on workers that has become very easy for satan to deceive the believers with false doctrines. All satan has to do is to induce false doctrines in the mind of the worker. Then when the worker starts to preach that false doctrine all the worker-dependent believers believe that false doctrine to be a word from God.
The next question is how do false doctrines enter the mind of workers? Workers who call themselves as full time pastors start focusing on believers for money and not on God. They start to feel insecure because they do not have a job of their own as Paul the apostle did.
They pretend not to ask for money openly but in their hearts, they start lusting for the tithe money of the believers. They also cover up their lust for money by dressing themselves in white clothing displaying a false humility.
Once they have started focusing on money in their hearts they start to cling on to the believer. How do they do that? They do that by making the believers to cling on to them.
How do they make the believers to cling on to them? By doing the following:
1. By preaching that they are melchizedek priests unbiblically and as to how great their calling is.
2. By preaching about the great sacrifices they did to become a pastor.
3. By preaching about their greatness of being a celibate worker.
4. By speaking ill of other denominations.
5. By creating a set of false doctrines just to show themselves to be superior.
Thus, instead of glorifying Christ they have ended up glorifying themselves just to enslave the believers to themselves. All for money!!
1) Firstly, the High Priesthood status of the Old Testament temple was passed down only to the “firstborns” in Aaron’s family.
Hence, Aaron and his first son Eleazer who is alive and then Eleazer’s first son and so on and on would ONLY get the High priesthood position. No other descendents in Aaron’s family are eligible for that position. Only the “Firstborns” get that position.
Similarly, Jesus became THE firstborn by being raised from the dead as per Acts 13:33. He is also the High Priest in the heavenly temple as per Heb 4:15.
Jesus is the ONLY firstborn as per Romans 8:29 which says, “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.”
2) Secondly, the High Priesthood position in the Old Testament did not belong just to one person but instead was indeed passed down to the next generation. Why?
Because the High Priests are humans and they died.
But the High Priesthood status of Jesus is not passed down to anybody as He is the
Immortal Son of God as per Hebrews 7: 23, 24.
CPM’S STRANGE CLAIM:
But CPM presumptuously and falsely call themselves as descendents of such a High Priest!! Jesus does not pass his High Priest position to anybody, as He is the “ONLY firstborn” as per Romans 8:29. Only the Old Testament High Priests passed down their position as they died.
3) Thirdly, TPM workers say that they are high priests after the order of Melchizedek and therefore they are very special. However, what does the Bible say?
a) Heb 7:17 says, “You (Jesus) are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.”
b) Heb 6:20 says, “…He (Jesus) has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.”
c) Even in Psalms 110:4 we read, “You (Jesus) are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”
WHAT IS THE TRUTH? Thus, the above verses clearly state that it was Jesus who alone is the High Priest and there is absolutely not a single verse in reference to celibate workers or anyone else being called as Melchizedek Priests. TPM presumptuously propagates a lie without quoting any verse in particular.
susan monkey turns to grace monkey
Doctors do not heal. Instead, they just provide treatment. TPM does not understand this basic difference.
Because of TPM’s ignorance of this basic truth, they have ended up confusing the whole issue.
Remember, the truth is that going to a doctor for treatment is not lack of faith. Instead going to a doctor for healing amounts to lack of faith.
So instead of preventing people from going to doctors altogether, teach people to go to doctors for treatment and not for healing.
For healing, a person has to set his / her relationship right before God.
The problem with TPM is that they took their “identity” creating fabricated doctrines from Pas. Alwin and not from Raman Kutty to whom God gave the vision of TPM.
Such false doctrines fabricated to create an identity for TPM are the following:
1. False interpretation of divine Healing.
2. Melchizedek-calling-for-workers.
3. Celibate apostleship.
4. TPM celibate workers belong to 144,000.
5. Women and marriage defiles a person.
6. Misinterpretation of Matthew 19:29.
7. Calling TPM buildings as “faith homes”.
8. Sunday school teachers and workers compulsorily prevented from wearing jewels whereas lately as a compromise other believers are allowed to wear jewels.
U bloddy Churchmouse..
Do u even knw who am I ?? I wish the law permitted me to finish you 1st for your extra smart reply … If you think ur smart, sorry I cudnt find u so… I was actually googling for TPM (Total Productivity Mgmt) and bumped into this foolish piece of shit. I’m trying to wash off the shit but then the stain of this hypocratic-shit is so strong, I’m unable to.
My stance is still the same… I think this Rachel Chitra should b sent to some assylum for a break. She is sure to have some kind of pscycological disorders. And what is this?? I happen to read some Susan’s posts earlier and the same is being copied and pasted by some1 else called this grace… Is that a tradition or some kind of copyright overruling or plagaurism here??.. both seem to be Christians again among which there was born, the sense of bitteress and that bitterness and hatred for some church led this Rachel Chitra to create such a blog. And then as I mentioned earlier, a bunch of foolish hypocryte christians putting up masalas and garlic to this foolish piece of shit and interestingly all of them deny to be called as athiest.
Do you know wht is it like to be an athiest?? Do u knw the philosophy behind it?? Even Vedas and other hindu scriptures are against one being a nastic (athiest). And you like a fool and telling me that the Christ is sitting on the throne. First tell ur moderator to clean her a** den get bak to other’s. Same instruction applies to u too.. 1st u clean ur shit and get back to other’s if that is your job.
And ur telling me that ur sure i’ll have have many hypocritical Christians on my way?? YOU ARE THE 1st ONE. then this susan, then this grace, then this jim, and i dunno wht to call this rachel athiest. And i also dunno WHAT to call this phenomenon of getting a bunch of so called “true christians” together in an athiest’s blog to encourage WHAT?? I have no idea of wht exacly you people are looking for?? its funny rather your good luck that the law isnt in my hand.
Okays Bro Ray..
Its very clear that you have read Bible a lot but learnt no inner truths. 1 Corinthians 7:5 which you quoted for supporting anti-celibacy apostleship is purely for a husband and wife and not for a consecrated servant of God. I have heard about this being taught in the pre-marital counselling. Concluded. ur a better Christian..!!! btw which church do u goto?? Baptist?? leme know that.
Cheers!!!
Jim.
Bro Amit,
Request you to please lower ur harsh tone. Its doesnt appear gud from a traditional hindu. You see there are many who are hyprocrytes and esp those who think they possess inner depth of the scriptures without having personal realtions with God. This increases spiritual pride which triggers many people to talk “christianity” in “philosophical” way. As Sadhu Vasvani said about religion “Speak less, practice more”. There are many among Chrstians as well as in all other faiths who do the talking but no walking.
People who blame and accuse others dont understand one simple fact and that the “Gospel is very simple for a child to understand but yet so very complex and deep for a philosopher percieve” This applies mainly to our athiest moderator here.
When a person goes to Ashram or say “Bible College”, they STUDY scripture which makes them feel spiritually superior to others. This is the same case with Brahmins which caused the whole Indian population to get divided in to castes. People got divided, hatred was born, followed by untouchability and even blood-shed. Was there any use of the scriptural knowledge?? NO.
Same is the scenario with Christianity. Best example is this blog where the moderator is an athiest i.e nastic and all others “believing in God”. A lot of discussions, blaming, accusations and hatred resulting in no +ve results. They say its “eye-opening”. The eys which has been opened thus far; very sure of being bugged up with strong doctrines which this church holds which they cant follow. So to find excuses they read books, bring out choices from scriptures to suit thier own personality as they do in Gita also.
Eg:- In Hinduism, they say adultary is sin but then again to suit thier own choice, some say “karm karte raho but fal ka asha na rakho”. They twist the meaning as “have sex as and wen u want with anyone but dont alow that taste to overcome you or cause you do it again. Refrain from the pleasures and attraction”.
Similarly, there are many such examples which can be quoted from Koran which resulted in forming “Khwaja Muslims”, who follow “prophet and His excellency King Aga Khan” and dont goto Mosques but Jamatkhanas.
In similar fashion, Bible is the ultimate book of divine law, which can be twisted to suit one’s choice as and when they like. As they do it in the court where case is one, book of penal code is one but if there are 10 lawyers, there will be 10 view points referring to the same book of “Indian penal code”.
This is the only sense behind it brother… but the truth remains same. Jesus will appear on clouds. HE WILL COME.. His 2nd coming is very near. Are you ready for someone who beated death (like none.. like no other gods or any human being) and rose up to come again for U??
Cheers !!
Jim.
Dear Jim,
Your reply to Amit was superb!!!! I am very much pleased to read it….Keep it up..
Yar Amit, you should understand the purpose of you coming to this blog. Its not co-incidental!!!! God has a plan for you.
Cheers to all
JACOB
Hi Jacob, and… literally ALL,
That reply was not just for Amit but all of those “philosophical Christians” here who advocate thier so called opinions and calling it as “revelation of Holy Spirit” and proclaiming themselves to be spiritually superior, surprisingly by accusing and playing blame games.
People must reallise that the devil is very subtly using this blog-section to create havoc and hatred among Christian bretheren. And most ironically his instrument is so perfect–“an Athiest” !!!
neways… Do remember in prayer for the new goverment and all the political leaders. Its going to be crucial. His coming is very near !!! No one is perfect.. not even me. Pray for all those who are like me, short of glory and with sin.
Cheers !!!
Jim
To anyone who are against unmarried pastors, I want to tell you only one verse from the Bible which Jesus Himself said.
Jesus said,
“IF ANY MAN SERVE ME, LET HIM FOLLOW ME”
DID JESUS MARRY ?
IF ANYONE’S ANSWER IS YES, LET HIM FOLLOW HIM.
To prepare a Church as a bride for Christ which is spotless, blameless & glorious, a servant of God should separate himself for the cause of Christ and His Church.
Jim,
Where are you from?? Which city I mean?
Also, if you dont mind, can I know which church do you attend for sunday services??
Regards
JACOB
Hi Jacob,
I was in Santacruz (W), Mumbai for last 10 months on a project assignment. While being in Mumbai, I attended TPM Ville Parle (Mum-Center). Now back in Pune, got a new job, attending the services in Shantinagar. Will be going to Bangalore next week for 3 months for a company sponsored training on some new technology related stuff.
What about you, what do you do??
Rgds,
Jim.
Amit,
As I stated before, I feel sorry for you. Your worldview is built on hate and it shows. You must lead a very sordid life, but it’s okay. Everyone is free to live life as they please. Sooner or later, you will meet Jesus Christ and let’s see what you will tell Him when that time comes. As for the rest of your nonsense, it isn’t worth the time to read it as it took to type it. Your vitriol is misguided and can be said from the comfort of your room and your computer. I really doubt if you would say it to someone on a “face to face” basis. Talk is cheap.
Ray
Jim, you said…
**Its very clear that you have read Bible a lot but learnt no inner truths.**
This assumes that TPM is truly teaching “inner truths.” You haven’t proven that they are. Furthermore, you assume that there are “inner truths” that have escaped the church universal, but has somehow been revealed to the originators of TPM. Doesn’t this strike you just a tad bit odd?
You said…
**1 Corinthians 7:5 which you quoted for supporting anti-celibacy apostleship is purely for a husband and wife and not for a consecrated servant of God. I have heard about this being taught in the pre-marital counselling.**
You’re putting in your own accepted (TPM’s) interpretation while reading the verse. Did you forget that it states..
“But since there is so much immorality, each man SHOULD have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. The husband SHOULD fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and LIKEWISE the wife to her husband. The wife’s body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband’s body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. DO NOT deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. THEN COME TOGETHER AGAIN so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. I say this as a CONCESSION (by permission), NOT as a command.” (1 Corinthians 7:2-6)
Paul is NOT teaching that husbands and wives should “consecrate” their lives and cease to have marital relations, but that they are to do it “for a time” and then “come together again.” You will find NO such command from Paul that the married or the unmarried are to become “consecrated” in the way TPM teaches. Even in these verses, Paul speak by “permission”, meaning that he is only speaking as “Paul”, and not of “commandment”, meaning that there is no command that believers must be celibate in order to achieve some type of consecration. Let’s face it, TPM separates their ministers from their wives in complete opposition to what God intended for marriages.
You said…
**Concluded. ur a better Christian..!!! btw which church do u goto?? Baptist?? leme know that.**
This isn’t a muscle-flexing competition for who is the better Christian. I am just a man who once attended New Testament Church (TPM’s sister church in the USA) and speaks from his experiences with TPM. God knows me and He knows my heart. A good study of Scripture will only reveal TPM’s doctrinal deficiencies and the unnecessary burdens they place on their believers. The one thing that stands out amongst the conversations on this blog, is the constant appeal to emotions and the lack of Scriptural evidence or understanding.
I am a Christian who attends a Reformed Baptist church. However, labels aren’t what defines me but only what Scripture teaches. So, please, don’t make this a “my denomination vs. yours” issue, but stick to the truth of Scripture. Denominations aren’t the issue here, but only what Scripture teaches regarding TPM’s distinctives.
Peace,
Ray
Ray,
isn’t a muscle-flexing competition for who is the better Christian
This is what is being proven by you. Every posts of yours reflects hartred and blame. To a post addressed to Amit too you call his posts as “nonsense” when you know he isnt saved. Then again you tell him that his talk is cheap, which emphasises your image as spiritualy much more superior than him or everyone else. Amit’s speach, in a condition as he is in, reflects his ignorance. Instead of you trying to explain him things the way he can understand, you are blaming him by telling him directly:
“Sooner or later, you will meet Jesus Christ and let’s see what you will tell Him when that time comes”
This is true but have you realised one thing that this comment on him has ignited more fire within him against you, me and the entire Christian bretheren?? IS that the way Reformed Baptist Church teaches you to preach Gospel?? I doubt.
You even tell Amit “I really doubt if you would say it to someone on a “face to face” basis”.
This tells me you’ve got infuriated with his comments and you are provoking him to fight with you (face to face basis yea??). Where as I’m very sure that this good man if comes face to face with you would knock ur nose beyond your head and atleast Indian-law would be cripple to handle this case with majoriy of them here. This is not USA.
Ray, be sensible and graceful while telling gospel to anyone esp in India.
The one thing that stands out amongst the conversations on this blog, is the constant appeal to emotions and the lack of Scriptural evidence or understanding.
This is not about emotions. This is about having personal RELATIONS with God rather than having too much knowledge leading to philosophical understaning of the same; which again sprouts confusions leading to a lot more questions and a bunch of more confusions and spirit of rebellion. Man looks at the ‘face’ and ‘level of knowledge by the way you write and talk’ but God looks at heart.
IF that is your experience with TPM, then you looked around for choices as I mentioned in my earlier post. But as for me and many more believer’s experience are positive. I’ve been to many churches. They, as I see are filled with politics, corruptions and conspiracies. I’ve seen churches as “dirty business houses” than a “place of worship”. No church could give me the level of spiritual food as tpm has given me and I bet no church in the whole world can give you the level of spiritual guidance that tpm gives.
I was so very right. You and many here who are playing the blame-games are the same ones who once upon a time were a part of tpm. btw, New Testament Church in USA isnt sister church of TPM with its administration entrusted to someone else, but TPM itself.
And as for your following statements: please take some time to scroll-up and read my posts which explains you “Why Celibacy in serving the Most High??”
Paul is NOT teaching that husbands and wives should “consecrate” their lives and cease to have marital relations, but that they are to do it “for a time” and then “come together again.” You will find NO such command from Paul that the married or the unmarried are to become “consecrated” in the way TPM teaches. Even in these verses, Paul speak by “permission”, meaning that he is only speaking as “Paul”, and not of “commandment”, meaning that there is no command that believers must be celibate in order to achieve some type of consecration. Let’s face it, TPM separates their ministers from their wives in complete opposition to what God intended for marriages.
May be I have explained all these a hundred times over. I’ve no time to even copy-paste for every new face here as susan varghese and others do….
Ray,
I wish you would ignore what Jim says. I have long stopped commenting on this post, as I find the discussion lacks substance – its high on emotions but with little appeal to the intellect.
I for one found your arguments rational, logical and very level-headed 🙂
This assumes that TPM is truly teaching “inner truths.” You haven’t proven that they are.
I’m NOT interested in your assumptions and I dont need to prove anything here by wasting my precious time. I’m just here on check having fun with all you guys, trying to convey you all a very simple message as Jesus told His desciples when they came running telling Jesus “what shall we do to them who are doing the ministry in YOUR name by casting out demons in YOUR name??” Jesus said “Those who are doing MY work in My Name are not agaisnt ME”. Hmmm.. but here people are stuck up to something “styoopid” and wasting thier time; and Ray, “you being the latest”.
I wonder if all you (totured X-TPM members) have got a community on orkut too… Very nice. keep up the GOOD4Nothing work… I mean discussion….
Shalom,
Jim.
Hi Rachel,
Looong time no c…
As for ur comments, wish you would ignore what Jim says. I have long stopped commenting on this post, as I find the discussion lacks substance – its high on emotions but with little appeal to the intellect.
My posts contains the highest level of substance that even bro. Ray cant deny that “God exists”. If today you IGNORE what Jim says to be true, n the most intelligent fact with the highest level of intellect that God exists there for me and you, you’ll be in shame and tears in the days to come. Its high time, repent and be baptized.
Cheers !!!
Jim.
Rachel,
I for one found your arguments rational, logical and very level-headed
To find Ray’s arguments to be rational, LOGICAL, and very blah blah, you must have a minimum perception level to understand spirituality and existence of ‘God the supreme’ connected to it. Otherwise, you should find the entire page of this blog to be something “styooopid”.
But since you are an athiest, your findings are worth a laugh. Gud joke !!!
Cheers !!!
Jim.
Everyone.. .. its 2330 hrs in my clock. I dont know about “USA-people”; may be around 1400 hrs : Dont waste ur time here for having a late night sleep full of hatred and gnashing of teeth.
Spread love and be Loved (Now.. is that something emotional and lack intellect?? Yess… thats the way Jesus always preached and proclaimed wonders but yet remained in complete humility. Jesus said,
“IF ANY MAN SERVE ME, LET HIM FOLLOW ME”
Question is… DID JESUS MARRY ?)
To know more, read my older posts…
Hmmm.. And yesss.. have a lot of “substance and intellect” in your posts (masalas and garlic.. n a bit of soya sauce tooo)… have lot of them to make it more aromatic to attract more anti-TPMs and rebbelions (so called free thinkers and stupid spiritual autodidacts)!!!
Cheers !!!
Jim.
Dear Jim,
Praise the Lord
You can contact me on jacob@patelbras.com . I am from Jamnagar TPM
What is your contact?
JACOB
To all who had some discussion on celebacy
Can anyone tell me, why did paul said
” 1 Cor 7:29 But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none;”
and then he says
“7:38 So then he that giveth her in marriage doeth well; but he that giveth her not in marriage doeth better.”
you can also use himself instead of her. Why did Paul say like this??
This is in addition and a supporting to the previous question
1) Why did Jesus didn’t marry?
I add one more question
Mark 10:028 Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.
10:029 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or
father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel’s,
10:030 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
Why did Jesus said to leave mother, father, wife etc..???
Regards to all
JACOB
Well Jacob, u can contact me at
jimkjoy@gmail.com
CRUCIAL QUESTIONS TO EXPOSE THE FALSE TEACHERS OF THE LAST DAYS
TPM, IN FEAR TRIES TO DELIBERATELY AND HURRIEDLY HIDE THEIR FALSE TEACHING. THEREFORE, ASK THEM THE FOLLOWING QUESTIONS. DO NOT LET THEM ESCAPE:
1) WHY DO TPM PASTORS CONDUCT MARRIAGES IN FAITH HOMES IF MARRIAGE BY ITSELF TAKES A BELIEVER AWAY FROM THE LOVE OF CHRIST?
2) DOES PAUL WRITE 1 CORINTHIANS 7:34 AS A SUGGESTION TO THE WORKERS OR TO THE BELIEVERS?
(TPM WRONGLY TEACHES THAT THIS VERSE IS MEANT AS A COMMAND FOR WORKERS. THE TRUTH IS PAUL GIVES HIS OPINION OF ABSTAINING FROM MARRIAGE TO BELIEVERS AND NOT TO WORKERS AND NOT AS A COMMAND BUT JUST AS A SUGGESTION)
3) WHY DO TPM PASTORS GET GOVERNMENT MARRIAGE LICENSES TO CONDUCT AND REGISTER MARRIAGES IF MARRIAGE LEADS A PERSON AWAY FROM CHRIST?
ASK THEM THESE QUESTIONS. THEIR FALSE TEACHING WILL BE EXPOSED. BEWARE OF LAST DAYS FALSE TEACHERS!!
As a result of the above misinterpretation hundreds of CPM youth get brainwashed and end up in the celibate ministry and many fall in sins also.
TPM PASTORS GET MARRIAGE REGISTRATION LICENSES FROM THE GOVERNMENT TO REGISTER MARRIAGES IN FAITH HOMES AND CONTRADICTORILY CLAIM THAT MARRIAGE REDUCES A PERSON’S DEVOTION TO CHRIST?
THE APOSTLES NEVER CONDUCTED MARRIAGES LIKE TPM MARRIAGE BROKERS.
THE TPM WORKERS DISPLAY THEIR RELIGION AND PIETY LIKE THE PHARISEES AND BUDDHISTS BY WEARING WHITE DRESS WHILE THEIR HEARTS ARE FILLED WITH LIES AND MISINTERPRETATIONS?
TPM PASTORS CONDUCT MARRIAGES IN FAITH HOMES AND ALSO CLAIM CONTRADICTORILY THAT MARRIAGE BY ITSELF TAKES A BELIEVER AWAY FROM THE DEVOTION TO CHRIST?
TPM SAYS THAT MARRIAGE IS SINFUL. MARRIAGE IS CARNAL. THEY ALSO CLAIM THAT MARRIAGE DEFILES A MAN.
AT THE SAME TIME TPM CONDUCTS MARRIAGES FOR BELIEVERS IN THEIR FAITH HOMES. IT MEANS THAT TPM CORRUPTS THE BELIEVERS WITH DEFILEMENT AND ALSO LEADS A PERSON FROM THE DEVOTION OF CHRIST.
IN 1 CORINTHIANS 7:34, PAUL THE APOSTLE WRITES ABOUT
ABSTENTION OF MARRIAGE AND CELIBACY FOR BELIEVERS.
BUT TPM WORKERS TWIST THE MEANING OF THE VERSE AND CLAIM THAT WORKERS HAVE TO ABSTAIN FROM MARRIAGE?
THE TPM FOUNDER RAMAN KUTTY WAS MARRIED AND HAD CHILDREN IN THE FAITH HOME BUT NOW THE TPM WORKERS DECEIVE THE PEOPLE BY STIPULATING THAT WORKERS MUST BE CELIBATES JUST LIKE THE CATHOLIC PRIESTS.
A) Matthew 19 vs 29 says, “And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother[a] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.”
WHY DOES JESUS SAY THE ABOVE ? Because the Jews feared the following…
a) As per John 9 vs 22 the Jewish authorities threatened the jews with being sent off the synagogue (ex-communication)if they confessed that Jesus is the Christ or Messiah.
b) Moreover as per Mat 19 vs 22, the Jews who confessed that Jesus is Christ also lost their jewish birthright and their father’s property which would make them suffer poverty. Apostle Paul mobilised money among the gentile churches for such christian jews in Judea.
TO WHOM DOES JESUS ADVISE TO FORSAKE PARENTS ?
To the fear-filled Jews who were threatened with excommunication, loss of property and isolation by the family and whose UNBELIEVING parents & relatives hindered them from believing in Jesus as Saviour and thereby be saved.
WHAT DO CPM PASTORS TEACH ABOUT MATTHEW 19 VS 22 ?
CPM Pastors command the innocent youth to forsake their SAVED AND ANOINTED parents and relatives and come to the celibate ministry.
COMPARISON:
1) Jesus talks about “eternal life” whereas CPM Pastors talk about “coming to ministry”.
2) Jesus talks about forsaking UNSAVED relatives whereas CPM Pastors erroneously talk about forsaking SAVED relatives.
Hope you now understand the gross misinterpretation of Mat 19 vs 29 done in CPM.
B) Secondly, CPM Pastors often quote 1 Corinthians 7 vs 33,34 and say that married men and women are concerned for their spouses and not about Christ. They say that marriage takes a man away from the love of Christ.
MY REPLY:
1) If so why do CPM Pastors conduct such marriages in the faithhomes if marriage by itself takes people away from Christ ? I think they conduct marriages to avoid losing people and their tithes to other churches.
2) Secondly, Paul writes 1 Cor 7 vs 33,34 to believers and not to workers and also as a personal opinion and not as a command from the Lord.
3) Thirdly, why do CPM pastors get Government license to conduct marriage in the faithhome if marriage leads a person away from Christ’s love ?
As a result of the above misinterpretation hundreds of CPM youth get brainwashed and end up in the celibate ministry and many fall in sins also.
A PLEA: Pls send this to as many CPM believers & Workers as possible so that the youth are not cheated with a false interpretation. Let us stand for truth and not be Pastor-pleasers. As you know CPM promotes Pastors as Idols.
This is the latest strategy being used to malign my name..
this Jim is not me…
This is the latest strategy being used to malign my name..
this Jim is not me…
This is a matter is of shame to both the moderator of this blog and the one whos using this dirty strategy…
These are just another dirty old posts by Susan and Rachel Varghese by someone else or who knws.. they themself..
This is how devil wants all of us to be engaged in these kinds of hatred, confusions and finally divisions among ourselves….
and for this, devil’s best instrument… “an athiest”.. he is using an athiest for all these dirty plans of his. Be careful.. the end times are near.. watch and pray…
Hi Chitra,
Theres no doubt that all these filthy minded creatures are your friends…
They, the so called free thinkers and stupid spiritual autodidacts, whos got fed up of life and killing thier time here for no reason and the reason they give is “exposing the fault”
To All,
“Proclaiming the Truth, the Gospel” is one thing and digging out nonsense and saying that something or someone is wrong and repeated futile discussions on the same rugged topic is another thing. That would be called as something as as outcome of “spiritual pride”, which even caused the fall of Lucifer..
Its upto you to think and decide on whats better for you.. and opt for the best.
Cheers!!!
Jim
yes jim
you are right!!!
this is the wicked device of satan….
whosover has done this is an instrument of his wicked father….
Hi All,
Its since long time I’m appearing here… I’ve been a silent spectator for a loong time. It feels nice to read the same old dirty posts surpricingly by “Jim”. But I understodd witha little cross-examination that its nt “Jim”. Whoever it is, I would say, “beta pichwade men danda padega..phir rona nahi”
This debate is groing stronger. And one can make out that whatever Jim speaks, is strongly by his own experience of telling gospels to lost souls and thats how an evangelist is supposed to be like Jesus who was amist of sinners all his time.. I wonder if hes even read vedas and gita. And one more thing is clear.. that hes not being emotional as ray.. or churchmouse or even moderator comments. Hes rather being highly “humble” in his statements when scriptural truths are concerned. But ironicaly, by anymeans Jim’s statements wud never make any sense to our moderator who an athiest.
Now this page looks intresting (minus) those 3 posts posted by some “pakistani” (word used instead of “coward ” among my friends). Why I say interesting because, earlier, this blog had only blames and no one resisted because of which there was freedom in typing away nonsense… But now since Jim has come up with strong but yet humble points, people like to label it as “emotions”, or “without substance” etc.. fearing “losing the ground”. Good Job Jim !!!.. Keep up the gud work.
I’m not a tpm church believer.. I wish I could be one but actually the faith home which Jim told me is quite far… I’ve visited the place a couple of times or so, I found it to be extremily wonderful !!! Actually I wud have never gone there or even known about it.. Its this blog which created the curiosity within me to know and reallise that such wonderful churchs even exists.. Thats my experince. I dunno about its past or present but the worship, testimonial service, speach.. it was just worth going there changing two local trains.
And all these rotten posts which explains about its past and all that crap is gud for nothing as far as they are doing a gr8 job now.
By the way, a post here reminded me about my olden days.. I went to church on a fine Sunday morning, I saw a “MOUSE” under the “CHURCH’s carpet”… This same “mouse” was creating a chaos since so many months. Finally in the later hours, this “mouse” was pulled out with a looong broom and beaten to death. I wish I could clean all such mouse which thinks they are supreme and superior and creates such havoc in the church (body of Christ). Because even I’m a “convert”, with strong zeal for Christ and not for any church… mind it.
Regards,
Anil.
I am from a family that attended CPM. After living life for 40 years or so, in different countries, jobs, situations, churches and ministries, I can safely say that inspite of all the restriitions and strange rules and interpretations, CPM/TPM is a place where a good spiritual atmosphere prevails. It is those people who are attracted by this world and its pleasures and who cannot stand up to scrutiny – constantly try and find fault with the church – because their inadequacies in leading a spiritual life makes them depressed and hence they have to find a scapegoat. STOP BLAMING THE CHURCH. IT IS YOUR FAULT AND YOUR SINNING THAT NEEDS TO CHANGE. STOP BLAMING CPM/TPM for your failure to lead a solid Christian life. God gave us brains and the freedom to choose. use it and stop finding fault with CPM/TPM. It is one of the fastest growing most international and most effective and powerful churches.!!
Hi Brother Anil,
Looong time no c…
Thanks for ur appreciation but you are too much.. Now c’mmon I am not the way that humble amd meek as u said.. u can read some of my posts which reflects my anger and anxiety over these attrocities being posted here… wht can I do.. devil is too tempting these days.. its makes you do what you dont want to…
But ofcourse I do have grace to proclaim gospel wherever I go, may be its in the office or anywhere I make it sure that whoeve is in my network is “aware of Jesus the Saviour”.
Cheers !!!
Jim.
Hi Jim
I really appreciate your efforts to defend the truth in the name of Jesus.
God bless you
John
Hello Rachel,
Yes, you’re right. To attempt a chat with Jim is futile, considering he doesn’t see the hypocrisy of his ways. When I attempt common ground (Scripture), he deviates. But isn’t that the way it is with some TPM members. They cannot refute anything Scripturally and must resort to ad hominem (as we see with some of the other TPM sympathizers). What makes it more laughable is when he attempts to chastize me for my post to Amit, but doesn’t bother taking the log out of his eye when he makes the very personal remarks he’s made against you. Let me just say that, in the name of Christ, I apologize for him. He isn’t representative of what a true Christian should be and his false humility is compromised by the very words he states. I would dare to venture that if his own TPM ministers saw his remarks on this blog, he would be thoroughly rebuked by them. At least I can give them credit for this. Needless to say that it is an embarassment to Christ and what He taught. I will not continue any interactions with Jim unless he attempts to use Scripture falsely, but as long as he shows his ineptitude, I will let sleeping dogs lie. Jim seems to be doing a better job of showing the hypocrisy of TPM then I can ever do myself.
Peace,
Ray
To everyone,
I will show how Jim misrepresents the Scriptures in a few days. I am a teacher and we are closing out the school year soon, thus I am very busy. However, I do encourage everyone to follow this blog. I am a former New Testament Church (the USA offshoot of TPM) and am very familiar with their misinterpretations and will prove it.
Until then…
Peace,
Ray
dear ray,
finally you agreed that you are an ex-tpm!!!! this is what i wanted to know even at the early stages, and i had a doubt too….
now, coming to your blame on jim, if he is mis-interpreting scriptures, point out categorically and i shall try to reply as clear as possible.
also, if you people have any mis-conceptions about TPM and its doctrines, come pointwise and we shall debate point to point. dont mix up things like you people had done in the past.
take one point and debate only on that subject. we will debate it from the scriptures. once we both agree on that point, close it and then switch over to another point. we shall not cover two issues at a single time.
it would nice to discuss in this way, without any emotion or misinterpretation.
hope you agree.
regards
jacob
dear ray,
fortunately, i am not an ex-tpm. still a tpm believer and love Jesus and his commandments…
neither i am been thrown out, nor i have quit myself.
first thing only happens when someone is caught in sin and outcasted from TPM.
and second thing happens when someone finds the tpm doctrines to be hard to sustain, so they quit on their own.
one of the thing has happened with you,
either you are been thrown out or you could not digest the doctrines.
anyway, our further communications and debate, may either change my thinking or yours.
regards
jacob
“and second thing happens when someone finds the tpm doctrines to be hard to sustain, so they quit on their own.”
.
Jacob, you are right, TPM doctrines are hard; hence, they are not the doctrines of Jesus.
Mat. 11:29-30 “Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. ”
The word yoke is used figuratively to indicate the teachings and doctrines of Jesus. Jesus said His teachings or doctrines are easy, but TPM says their doctrines are hard. Thus, it appears that TPM is not teaching the doctrines of Jesus.
Dear Spectator
I think you are still a babe in spritual things.
First came John, who taught repentence
Then came Jesus with a better doctrine
Then Peter, Paul and other disciples came with even more harder doctrines.
And times have passed, spiritual requirement has reached higher levels.
As the coming of our Lord is nearing, spiritual level needs to be most higher, equalling the glory of Jesus.
Please read bible carefully and you will find that Jesus said” A Comforter shall be send to you and he shall teach you all things”
Even Saint Paul said, ” You cannot eat hard foods, as you are just babes. Only milk is appropriate. Hard foods are for the mature people”
These are not scriptural words, but mine own words. You can refer Bible for original words, but meaning is unchanged.
So, bottomline is that Jesus initiated the way to this Spiritual Life, which his apostles highlighted little more in detail. All the books written by Paul is through Holy Spirit. Majority of those are not taught by Jesus.
Even today, there are saints who are teaching new spiritual heights, through Holy Spirit, which even Jesus didn’t taught to his disciples.
Those who have high calling from God can understand whether these teachings are from God or not. As the Holy Spirit will Himself teach that person about this subject.
This is the reason, why Jesus said, ” He who believes in me can do greater things than me”.
This is a growing process. In bible it is also written that many things which Jesus did is not written in the scriptures.
Come back to me if you have any doubts.
Regards
JACOB
TPM PASTORS GET MARRIAGE REGISTRATION LICENSES FROM THE GOVERNMENT TO REGISTER MARRIAGES IN FAITH HOMES AND CONTRADICTORILY CLAIM THAT MARRIAGE REDUCES A PERSON’S DEVOTION TO CHRIST?
THE APOSTLES NEVER CONDUCTED MARRIAGES LIKE TPM MARRIAGE BROKERS.
THE TPM WORKERS DISPLAY THEIR RELIGION AND PIETY LIKE THE PHARISEES AND BUDDHISTS BY WEARING WHITE DRESS WHILE THEIR HEARTS ARE FILLED WITH LIES AND MISINTERPRETATIONS?
TPM PASTORS CONDUCT MARRIAGES IN FAITH HOMES AND ALSO CLAIM CONTRADICTORILY THAT MARRIAGE BY ITSELF TAKES A BELIEVER AWAY FROM THE DEVOTION TO CHRIST?
TPM SAYS THAT MARRIAGE IS SINFUL. MARRIAGE IS CARNAL. THEY ALSO CLAIM THAT MARRIAGE DEFILES A MAN.
AT THE SAME TIME TPM CONDUCTS MARRIAGES FOR BELIEVERS IN THEIR FAITH HOMES. IT MEANS THAT TPM CORRUPTS THE BELIEVERS WITH DEFILEMENT AND ALSO LEADS A PERSON FROM THE DEVOTION OF CHRIST.
IN 1 CORINTHIANS 7:34, PAUL THE APOSTLE WRITES ABOUT
ABSTENTION OF MARRIAGE AND CELIBACY FOR BELIEVERS.
BUT TPM WORKERS TWIST THE MEANING OF THE VERSE AND CLAIM THAT WORKERS HAVE TO ABSTAIN FROM MARRIAGE?
THE TPM FOUNDER RAMAN KUTTY WAS MARRIED AND HAD CHILDREN IN THE FAITH HOME BUT NOW THE TPM WORKERS DECEIVE THE PEOPLE BY STIPULATING THAT WORKERS MUST BE CELIBATES JUST LIKE THE CATHOLIC PRIESTS.
Hi
Moses was married and he saw God face to face.
Raman Kutty is the founder of TPM and he was married.
Joseph had dreams and revelations and he was married.
TPM PASTORS GET MARRIAGE REGISTRATION LICENSES FROM THE GOVERNMENT TO REGISTER MARRIAGES IN FAITH HOMES AND CONTRADICTORILY CLAIM THAT MARRIAGE REDUCES A PERSON’S DEVOTION TO CHRIST?
THE APOSTLES NEVER CONDUCTED MARRIAGES LIKE TPM MARRIAGE BROKERS.
THE TPM WORKERS DISPLAY THEIR RELIGION AND PIETY LIKE THE PHARISEES AND BUDDHISTS BY WEARING WHITE DRESS WHILE THEIR HEARTS ARE FILLED WITH LIES AND MISINTERPRETATIONS.
TPM PASTORS CONDUCT MARRIAGES IN FAITH HOMES AND ALSO CLAIM CONTRADICTORILY THAT MARRIAGE BY ITSELF TAKES A BELIEVER AWAY FROM THE DEVOTION TO CHRIST?
TPM SAYS THAT MARRIAGE IS SINFUL. MARRIAGE IS CARNAL. THEY ALSO CLAIM THAT MARRIAGE DEFILES A MAN.
AT THE SAME TIME TPM CONDUCTS MARRIAGES FOR BELIEVERS IN THEIR FAITH HOMES. IT MEANS THAT TPM CORRUPTS THE BELIEVERS WITH DEFILEMENT AND ALSO LEADS A PERSON FROM THE DEVOTION OF CHRIST.
IN 1 CORINTHIANS 7:34, PAUL THE APOSTLE WRITES ABOUT
ABSTENTION OF MARRIAGE AND CELIBACY FOR BELIEVERS.
BUT TPM WORKERS TWIST THE MEANING OF THE VERSE AND CLAIM THAT WORKERS HAVE TO ABSTAIN FROM MARRIAGE.
THE TPM FOUNDER RAMAN KUTTY WAS MARRIED AND HAD CHILDREN IN THE FAITH HOME BUT NOW THE TPM WORKERS DECEIVE THE PEOPLE BY STIPULATING THAT WORKERS MUST BE CELIBATES JUST LIKE THE CATHOLIC PRIESTS.
What Raman Kutty has written is very true.
1 Corinthians 7: 34 was not written for workers. Rather that whole epistle was written for believers of the corinthian church.
TPM wrongly uses the verses written for believers and claims that workers need to be celibates. Such is their poor understanding of scriptures!!
THE INFORMATION THAT TPM WORKERS GET GOVERNMENT LICENSES TO CONDUCT MARRIAGES IS ALSO SURPRISING. TPM CLAIMS THAT MARRIAGE DEFILES AND THAT MARRIAGE MAKES A PERSON STRAY AWAY FROM THE LOVE OF CHRIST.
WHY THEN DO THEY CONDUCT MARRIAGES? THAT TOO IN THE FAITH HOMES!!
Hello Jacob,
“Come back to me if you have any doubts.”
What are some of the “hard to sustain doctrines of TPM”?
PASTOR PHILLIP CHANDAPILLAI WAS KICKED IN HIS GROIN.
WHEN?
DURING THE GENERAL BODY MEETING ASSEMBLED TO DISCUSS THE CHANGE OF NAME FROM CPM TO TPM.
WHO KICKED HIM?
THE SO-CALLED APOSTLES OF TPM WHO HAD COME TO ATTEND THE GENERAL BODY MEETING IN KERALA.
WHY THEY KICKED HIM?
BECAUSE THEY OPPOSED THE CHANGE OF NAME FROM CPM TO TPM.
WHAT HAPPENED TO PASTOR PHILLIP?
HE DIED A FEW MONTHS LATER AS HIS GROIN HAD GOT SWOLLEN AND INFECTED.
WHY DID THE TPM APOSTLES KICK PASTOR PHILLIP?
BECAUSE THE TPM APOSTLES HAVE A BURNING ZEAL TO PROTECT THE IDENTITY OF THEIR DENOMINATION RATHER THAN HAVE ZEAL FOR CHRIST.
Dear Spectator,
First of all come with your name. Dont be an anonyms writer. Bible is strictly against this.
Secondly, I replied to Ray, who said he/she had quit TPM. So, if someone is leaving, it should be for this reason.
I find no TPM doctrines as hard to sustain.
Hope this clears your doubts
regards
jacob
Dear Sharon,
Jesus was also beaten, kicked and finally hanged to death. Bible says that he was beaten in such a way that it was even difficult to identify him as a human being, or a flesh of a man. Read Isaiah 53.
The pictures what we see today of Jesus hanging on cross is 99% artistic but not real.
Coming to the point, they who killed him thought that everything would be finished by His death. Same they did with all apostles. All of them died a terrible death. They wanted to crush their doctrines and teachings. But look to the world today, Christianity is the world’s largest religion.
Similarly, can you let me know whether the name CPM prevails or TPM?? They who kicked Pastor Philip Chandapillai thought they can acheive what they want. Unfortunately they could not.
Also, do you think, they who did this, would be anywhere in heaven???
It might be the will of God in Pastor Philip to die in such a way. God knows the intentions and imaginations of every people. Neither you know nor I know the thoughts of Pastor Philip and those who kicked him.
Neverthless, the truth is TPM name has prevailed. CPM is nowhere heard…..!!!!
If you see a SHIP, 50% is only seen outside. Rest is inside the sea. Similarly there might be lot of wicked people in TPM at the same time there are best ones too.
Dont look on those which is seen outside. Look for this things which are hidden and unseen. This is what Bible teaches.
Regards
JACOB
DEAR TPM BELIEVERS,
THE PEOPLE WHO KILLED JESUS WERE PAGANS.
BUT THE PEOPLE WHO KILLED PASTOR PHILLIP WERE THOSE WHO CALL THEMSELVES AS APOSTLES.
ALL OF THOSE APOSTLES WHO DID THAT ARE STILL IN TPM!! AND PEOPLE LISTEN TO THEIR DOCTRINES.
A TREE IS KNOWN BY ITS FRUITS. TPM IS KNOWN BY ITS APOSTLES DOING THE FOLLOWING:
HAVING SECRET ILLICIT RELATIONSHIPS.
TWISTING THE VERSES OF THE BIBLE TO GLORIFY THE TPM WORKERS.
ENSLAVING THE BELIEVERS BY MAKING THEM DEPEND UPON THE WORKERS JUST LIKE CATHOLICS ARE TAUGHT TO DEPEND UPON THEIR PRIESTS FOR INTERCESSION.
STIPULATING WORKERS TO REMAIN CELIBATES BASED ON 1 COR 7:34 WHEN ACTUALLY AS IT WAS POINTED OUT EARLIER BY JOSE THAT 1 COR CHAPTER 7 WAS WRITTEN FOR BELIEVERS AND NOT FOR WORKERS.
CLAIMING THAT MARRIAGE MAKES A PERSON STRAY FROM CHRIST AND CONTRADICTORILY CONDUCT MARRIAGES!!
BELIEVERS JUST BEWARE OF THE FALSE DOCTRINES OF TPM WHICH THEY HAVE FABRICATED TO GLORIFY THE TPM WORKERS!!
DEAR MAHIMA
JUDAS ISCARIOT WAS NOT A PAGAN….HE WAS ONE OF THE 12 APOSTLES AND ALSO HANDLED THE MOST IMPORTANT DEPARTMENT…. FINANACE DEPARTMENT!!!!!!!
THIS IS FOR YOUR INFORMATION
I THINK, YOU NEED TO READ AND LEARN BIBLE AGAIN……….
JACOB
FINANCE DEPARTMENT
SORRY,
TYPING MISTAKE
DEAR JACOB,
YOU ARE RIGHT. TPM IS FULL OF JUDAS ISCARIOTS WHO CALL THEMSELVES AS APOSTLES AND WHO LUST TO DO THE FOLLOWING AS MAHIMA POINTED OUT VERY NICELY:
– HAVING SECRET ILLICIT RELATIONSHIPS.
– TWISTING THE VERSES OF THE BIBLE TO GLORIFY THE TPM WORKERS.
– ENSLAVING THE BELIEVERS BY MAKING THEM DEPEND UPON THE WORKERS JUST LIKE CATHOLICS ARE TAUGHT TO DEPEND UPON THEIR PRIESTS FOR INTERCESSION.
– STIPULATING WORKERS TO REMAIN CELIBATES BASED ON 1 COR 7:34 WHEN ACTUALLY AS IT WAS POINTED OUT EARLIER BY JOSE THAT 1 COR CHAPTER 7 WAS WRITTEN FOR BELIEVERS AND NOT FOR WORKERS.
– CLAIMING THAT MARRIAGE MAKES A PERSON STRAY FROM CHRIST AND CONTRADICTORILY CONDUCT MARRIAGES!!
Dear Brethren,
Hope in Christ that the following short message edifies you and your friends.
TOPIC: WHO HAS TO FORSAKE HIS WIFE?
THE COMMANDMENT TO FORSAKE THE WIFE WAS NEVER GIVEN ONLY TO WORKERS. IT WAS GIVEN TO ALL WHO ARE WILLING TO BELIEVE IN JESUS AS SAVIOUR.
NOWHERE OUR LORD JESUS COMMANDED THE PEOPLE TO FORSAKE THEIR WIFE AS A PRECONDITION TO COME TO FULL TIME MINISTRY. INSTEAD, THE COMMANDMENT TO FORSAKE THE WIFE WAS GIVEN AS A PRECONDITION FOR GAINING ETERNAL LIFE.
THE TRUTH WAS THAT THE JEWS WERE HESITATING TO ACKNOWLEDGE JESUS AS SAVIOUR BECAUSE THEY FEARED THAT THEY WOULD BE THROWN OUT OF THE SYNAGOGUE.
MOREOVER THE JEWS FEARED TO ACKNOWLEDGE JESUS AS SAVIOUR BECAUSE THEY WOULD LOSE THE PROPERTY SHARE OF THEIR PARENTS. THE PARENTS ALSO REFUSED TO GIVE THE PROPERTY SHARE WITH THEIR SONS WHO BELIEVED IN JESUS BECAUSE THE PARENTS DID NOT WANT TO LOSE THEIR RESPECT IN THE SYNAGOGUE.
IN TODAY’S CONTEXT, IF THE WIFE, PARENTS OR ANY RELATIVE HINDERS A PERSON FROM ACCEPTING JESUS AS SAVIOUR, THEN THE WIFE, PARENTS AND THEIR PARENTAL PROPERTY HAS TO BE FORSAKEN. AFTER FORSAKING, THAT PERSON HAS TO ACCEPT JESUS AS SAVIOUR. ONLY THEN THAT PERSON CAN GAIN ETERNAL LIFE.
BEWARE OF TPM WORKERS WHO WRONGLY CLAIM THAT A PERSON SHOULD FORSAKE HIS WIFE AND PARENTS TO BECOME A FULL TIME WORKER.
TPM DOES MISINTERPRET THE SCRIPTURES JUST TO SHOW THEMSELVES AS SUPERIOR AMONG THE VARIOUS DENOMINATIONS. THAT IS HOW THEY ENSLAVE THE INNOCENT BELIEVERS TO THEMSELVES.
Thanks for your time. Pls pass it to others who seek true sanctification.
DEAR ALL,
I AM A BELIEVER OF JESUS AND ATTENDING TPM CHURCH.
I HAVE NEVER BEEN ENSLAVED NOR BEEN ASKED TO FORSAKE MY WIFE.
TPM SAYS, IF YOU WANT TO COME TO MINISTRY, YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE A DESIRE EVEN TO GET MARRIED. YOU SHOULD HAVE NO DESIRE FOR MONEY, WORLD AND ITS THINGS. THIS IS JESUS’S DOCTRINE AND NOT OF TPM…
THIS IS ALL BLAME GAME, WHO ACTUALLY DOESNT KNOW AT ALL THE TEACHINGS OF TPM AND THEIR WORKERS
THOSE WHO COME TO MINISTRY WITHOUT A HIGH CALLING AND WITHOUT A DESIRELESSNESS, THEY FALL IN TEMPTATION AFTER FEW YEARS OR MONTHS OF SERVICE. AND THEY ARE THOSE WORKERS WHO ARE ENGAGED IN UNWANTED THINGS.
HOWEVER, IF YOU SPIRIT OF GOD AND IF YOU TRUST ON GOD, NO TPM WORKER OR EVEN SATAN CAN SHAKE YOU.
IF YOU HAVE NO FAITH, HOPE, LOVE OF GOD IN YOU, EVEN IF YOU ARE NOT IN TPM, YOU CAN BE CHEATED BY SATAN AND HIS WORKERS
DONT LOOK TO PEOPLE, LOOK TO JESUS.
GOD BLESS
JACOB
IF JACOB SAYS THAT HE WANTS TO GO FOR FULL TIME MINISTRY IN TPM THEN TPM WILL STIPULATE THAT JACOB HAS TO FORSAKE HIS WIFE. THIS IS UNBIBLICAL.
NOWHERE OUR LORD JESUS COMMANDED THE PEOPLE TO FORSAKE THEIR WIFE AS A PRECONDITION TO COME TO FULL TIME MINISTRY. INSTEAD, THE COMMANDMENT TO FORSAKE THE WIFE WAS GIVEN AS A PRECONDITION FOR GAINING ETERNAL LIFE.
TPM DOES NOT KNOW THE TEACHINGS OF JESUS AND INSTEAD HAVE FABRICATED THEIR OWN UNBIBLICAL DOCTRINES.
TPM WORKERS WHO HAVE COME WITH A HIGH CALLING AND HAVE FORSAKEN THEIR WIFE COMMIT ADULTERY AND HAVE ALSO KILLED PAS. PHILLIP CHANDAPILLAI.
TPM IS CHEATED BY FALSE DOCTRINES. BEWARE OF TPM. LOOK TO THE HOLY SPIRIT AND NOT TO TPM WORKERS.
TPM IS A SELF GLORIFYING GROUP.
SPIRITUAL TITLES
Jesus commanded not to call spiritual leaders using titles as we see in Matt 23: 8-10 which says, “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called ‘teacher,’ for you have one Teacher, the Christ.”
Why did Jesus say this?
Because God’s plan as per Exodus 19:6 was for every Christian to become a Priest as per the following verse.
Exodus 19:6; “And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou (Moses) shalt speak unto the children of Israel .”
Remember, the call to be a Priest was given not just to the Levites but also to all the 12 tribes of Israel.
However, that plan could be fulfilled only until after Jesus tore the veil by His blood and opened a way for us to the Father in heaven.
And now, we all know that Jesus has already done that. He has opened the way to His Father.
Therefore, every one of us now has access to the Most Holy Place where the Father dwells as per Hebrews 10:19 and Hebrews 4:16. Remember, even Aaron’s sons who were Priests were never allowed to enter the Most Holy Place.
So all Christians including the pastors are brothers and priests. There is no difference between clergy and lay.
Nevertheless, strangely and highly ignorant of the above scriptural truth, many leaders advertise themselves as Doctors, Pastors and Chief Pastors etc. God gave leaders but never allowed anyone to use such titles in their magazines or cassettes.
By craving for titles, they have forced & threatened the Christians to address themselves as Pastors, which has now become a cult. Thus, they violate the command of Jesus Christ.
Hence, in obedience to the command of Jesus let us call them as brothers rather than Pastors or doctors. The Pastors do not want you to know that you have access to the Most Holy Place. Why? because they want to act as middle agents and take your money.
Remember, we all are brothers and priests. Only Jesus is our High Priest.
Dear Friends,
The above mail of Glory Samuel was very interesting. I was confused about TPM doctrines because the TPM workers’ activities contradicted what they preached.
Sis. Glory Samuel has clarified VERY CLEARLY. Now I understand that TPM has fabricated many wrong doctrines just to glorify their establishment and their pastors.
Let us glorify Christ and not the TPM workers who have indulged in many secret sins and THE killing of Pas. Phillip Chandapillai.
Bro. David Paul was the founder of the Voice of Pentecost in TPM. He has written a book by name “To TPM with Love” exposing the false doctrines of TPM. You can mail to him and receive your free copy at:
fgsfii@yahoo.com
Moreover, Bro. Sam Alangaramoney was one of the pastors in TPM during the times of the TPM founder Pastor. Freddy Paul. Bro. Sam has very good knowledge about the origins of TPM AND who knows that the Founder Pas. Raman Kutty Paul was a married PASTOR and not a celibate. You can mail to him at:
Sam Alan
KNOW THE TRUTH AND THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE FROM THE BONDAGE OF TPM’S FALSE DOCTRINES. PREPARE FOR THE LORD’S COMING WITH TRUE SANCTIFICATION AND NOT WITH A FALSE HUMILITY WITH A DISPLAY OF WHITE DRESS LIKE THE PHARISEES.
Sorry, the email ID of Bro. Sam Alangaramoney wasmissed out:
Moreover, Bro. Sam Alangaramoney was one of the pastors in TPM during the times of the TPM founder Pastor. Freddy Paul. Bro. Sam has very good knowledge about the origins of TPM AND who knows that the Founder Pas. Raman Kutty Paul was a married PASTOR and not a celibate. You can mail to him at:
samalan720@hotmail.com
While going across these posts from top to bottom. I’ve clearly understood something which speaks out rather screams out. There are some people who have had a very tough time going to tpm church and many more who have been blessed to many fold.
Those who have had a tough time with these tough doctrines, never wanted to be the way Almighty wants us to be in “His perfect will”, opting out from them by creating and following their own perceptions and twisting the doctrines as they see thmeselves to be and as they want to live thier life.
There are many useful things people can engage in other than these futile discussions here. All of you go home and pray for our dear moderator who has not only twisted the doctrines but also advocats the fact that God doesnt exist. Which clearly speaks of her character which demands self-will without having anybody to be given accountability for any of her moral act and thoughts.
Dear Christian friends, I appeal to all of you to boycott this evil-blog and carry on with your normal life.
Mist.
DEAR FRIENDS,
WHEN I WENT THROUGH THIS BLOG SITE WHAT I UNDERSTOOD WAS THIS:
THIS IS A VERY USEFUL BLOG SITE TO EXPOSE THE FALSE DOCTRINES OF TPM.
TPM WAS ALL ALONG PRETENDING TO BE VERY RELIGIOUS AND RIGHTEOUS.
BUT MANY MAILS IN THIS BLOG SITE HAS PROVED BEYOND DOUBT THAT TPM HAS TOO MANY KINGSIZE FALSE DOCTRINES.
I AM A BELIEVER IN TPM CHURCH. HOWEVER, I HAD MANY QUESTIONS FOR MANY YEARS. MANY OF THEM HAVE BEEN ANSWERED IN THIS SITE.
IT IS VERY TRUE THAT TPM WORKS FOR THE GLORY OF THE WORKERS THROUGH ITS DOCTRINES FABRICATED SPECIALLY FOR THAT PURPOSE. TO GLORIFY WORKERS.
MOREOVER THEY USE SONGS, CONVENTIONS TO BRAINWASH THE BELIEVERS TO GLORIFY THE WORKERS SO THAT THE BELIEVERS DO NOT LEAVE THE DENOMINATION.
THUS I UNDERSTAND THE GREATER GOAL OF TPM IS TO PROMOTE THE TPM KINGDOM RATHER THAN WORK FOR THE GROWTH AND UNITY OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
HENCE BEWARE OF TPM AND TRUST THE HOLY SPIRIT AND ASK THE HOLY SPIRIT TO LEAD YOU.
DO NOT TRUST IN THE DOCTRINES OF TPM WORKERS WHO CLAIM THAT THEY HAVE GOD’S REVELATIONS. THESE TPM WORKERS READ BOOKS OF PREACHERS FROM OTHER DENOMINATIONS AND THEN CLAIM THAT THEY RECEIVE GOD’S REVELATION. JUST BE CAREFUL OF TPM!!
TPM WORKERS ARE WOLVES SEEKING GLORY FOR THEMSELVES AND DRESS THEMSELVES AS SHEEP’S CLOTHING (WHITE JIBBAS) LIKE THE PHARISEES.
Dear Friends in Christ,
What Suresh has written is very true. Moreover,
Bro. David Paul was the founder of the Voice of Pentecost in TPM. He has written a book by name “To TPM with Love” exposing the false doctrines of TPM. You can mail to him and receive your free copy at:
fgsfii@yahoo.com
Moreover, Bro. Sam Alangaramoney was one of the pastors in TPM during the times of the TPM founder Pastor. Freddy Paul. Bro. Sam has very good knowledge about the origins of TPM AND he knows that the Founder Pas. Raman Kutty Paul was a married PASTOR and not a celibate. You can mail to him at:
samalan720@hotmail.com
Brethren, do look to the welfare of your spiritual growth. TPM seeks to brainwash you to seek the TPM’s welfare.
I believe Jacob and samuel might be the member of a perfect church who teahes and practice as per Bible. Can you please expose your identity. let everyone see your holy church. I just challenge you, if you can……….
I can clearly see that the same people are using different computers and different names like Suresh, Clarence, Christina etc. They are trying to show that lot of people share their views.
How I found is that in the earlier posts, complete sentences were found matching in three different names. This clearly states that the owner of all these three post is same.
This is also a trick of Satan.
Coming to the point, TPM is a pentecostal church. It has its own rules and regulations. Like any school or college have its own rules which are not similar, but the teachings are more or less same. The difference is the mode teaching. Some schools teach in a better way due to their better infrastructure and knowledge, while some dont. Some people like the school, while some hate those schools.
But whether they like the school or hate the school, there is no loss or gain to the school. Its your life, your future and your career being either spoiled or made. Better stop thinking about schools, start thinking about your life.
Similarly, whether TPM is bad or good, it has nothing to loose. Its your life, your faith, your holines which is counted. Look to Jesus and run your race. He who has called you is capable to make you worthy for His kingdom, whether you are in TPM, YPM, or any other PM.
Read 1Cor Chapter 2 completely. Verse 15 says, he that is spiritual judgeth all things. No TPM or YPM can brainwash him.
If you read Chapter 3, there were groups of people who created such differences. One group were of Appollos and others were of Paul. But read down and you will see that Paul condemns such groupism. He is concerned about the lives of those who believed JESUS.
I too am attending TPM Church. There are lot of workers in TPM who are poorer in spiritual things and they need your prayers and support. They too are learning and running the race like you all.
LAST 30 YEARS, NO ONE HAS BRAIN WASHED ME NOR I HAVE HEARD ANYONE BRAINWASHING. IF YOU HAVE NO PROPER UNDERSTANDING, DONT BLAME THE DOCTRINES.
AS THE WORD OF GOD SAYS, IF YOU HAVE THE SPIRIT OF GOD, YOU CAN EASILY UNDERSTAND WHAT IS RIGHT AND WHAT IS WRONG. NO ONE IN THE WORLD CAN BRAINWASH YOU.
IF ANYBODY HAS ANY DOUBTS, PLEASE CALL ME ON MY CELL NUMBER ANY TIME. 0091 FOR INDIA, 9978912850 IS MY MOBILE NUMBER.
ALSO I AM CONTACTABLE ON JACOB@PATELBRASS.COM.
REGARDS TO ALL
JACOB
Jacob seems to be zealous for TPM rather than for Christ. Thus he is deceiving people with TPM false doctrines. I read the above blog and found the following article very true. Read and be blessed.
Just beware of TPM false doctrines.
CAN CPM PASTORS AND APOSTLES MARRY ???
Firstly the founder Pastor Paul was a married man and
had children when in a faithhome. The celibate type of
ministry was introduced by Pastor Alvin, a sinhalese,
whose ancestors were Catholics. He changed
Paul’s vision into a catholic style ministry. Finally
this Alvin fell in adultery in France Faithome and was excommunicated
from CPM.
Secondly, Pastor Freddy Paul, son of the founder (Paul) had got many Pastors married. A leading example is Pastor
Manohar who is now in Jaipur faithhome. He has four
children. His wife is Sis. Lilykutty. Similarly the
founder Paul also got 10 Pastors married and they
lived in a marriage when in CPM ministry. The CPM
Pastors suppress these facts from the believers.
Thirdly, 1 Cor 9 vs 5 states that the apostles had the
authority to be married and that was why Pastors like
Manohar, Founder Paul, Pastor Joseph (Composer Sis.
Glory’s dad), Mother Arthur etc., were all in marriage
during their ministry. Celibacy was promoted to create
an identity for TPM and thereby preserve their
believers from leaving the denomination.
Fourthly, Moses who was a married man also was able
to see God face to face. All our dedication are as filthy rags before the Most Holy God. Hence let us brag about Christ and not about the TPM dedication. God can use a donkey for his ministry. Num 22:28. God wants someone who obeys Him and not our man-made dedication.
Fifthly, Pas. Raman Kutty Paul never had a vision of
buying lands and buildings for the church or in the name of a Trust. Their vision was to live in rented places and that was why they called it a faithhome. But now the same name is
used absolutely meaninglessly as people do not know
the earlier committment.
But now all rationalisations are provided but they do not want to part with the name “faithhome”.
I wish you are enlightened with the above and not fall a trap to the TPM’s self glorification of their consecration.
I encourage you to minister as you are a priest as per 1 Peter 2:5,9. There is only one High Priest who is Jesus. The 12 tribes of Israel had a calling to be a kingdom of priests as per Ex 19:6.
CPM Pastors will brag about their melchizedek consecration in their songs and sermons and will not reveal that you are a priest.
I happened to find this very long posting concerning the TPM.
I was a TPM worker… traveled to India in 1978 and again in 1988. Pastor Jacob Ratnasingum installed me as the worker in charge of beginning the NTC in Puerto Rico. When I left the organization in 1988, it was because of this critical doctrine — which they do not admit to in the USA (they are open about it in India however)
TPM WORKERS AND PASTORS ARE EXPECTED TO LIVE A CELIBATE LIFE… THEY MAY ACCEPT A MARRIED COUPLE INTO THE MINISTRY (IN THE USA) BUT THEY ARE EXPECTED TO SEPARATE AND LIVE AS CELIBATES (IT IS NOT “FORCED” BUT “STRICTLY ENCOURAGED”) THOSE WHO CONTINUE LIVING AS MARRIED ARE PLACED IN INSIGNIFICANT PLACES AND MADE TO FEEL AS THOUGH THEY ARE NOT FULFILLING THE “HIGHEST CALLING” OF CELIBACY.
THERE ARE A NUMBER OF WORKERS / PASTORS IN THE USA BRANCH OF THE TPM TODAY WHO WERE MARRIED AND ARE NOW LIVING SEPARATELY…. CARLAND WRIGHT…. BOB AND MARG WHITEWAY — MOST SADLY GARY DANT AND CLABE RAY WHO WERE BOTH MARRIED AND DIED VERY YOUNG BELIEVING IN DIVINE HEALING… THEIR WIDOWS ARE STILL WITH TPM … I WOULD BE INTERESTED IN KNOWING HOW THEY ARE BEING CARED FOR AND WHAT IS THEIR FUNCTION IN THE MINISTRY THAT THEY SACRIFICED SO DEARLY FOR.
DAVID BARLOCK — FEEL FREE TO FIRE OFF YOUR COMMENTS TO ME AT clmdavidb@hotmail.com
I am married — my ministry has grown significantly since I left TPM…
Hi David Barlock,
Not to mention the countless TPM (NTC) believers who died trusting in their version of divine healing, most notably, at least to my recollection, considering it hit home for me, Rosemary Flores (Peter’s wife), whose funeral I attended at the NTC in Franklin Park, IL. Brothers Greg and Chuck were there as were other TPM representatives and all were praising “her” decision to be “faithful unto death.” The sad thing is that she didn’t need to die and left a husband who loved her (who has since remarried), children, and others, all for the sake of a superficial “faith” instilled by the TPM (NTC) workers she submitted herself to. Cancer riddled her body, leaving her body emaciated and bruised. Subsequently, her body was waxed to hide the evidence of her suffering. It is sad indeed, considering that Peter was a good friend of mine, a kind individual, who continues to be blindsided by this organization.
Yes, David. You may not remember me, but I remember you. I was a NTC member for many years, until the split, when Mark England, the pastor at the time, and our congregation left TPM. We have some mutual friends in Wilfredo “Wolfie” Dominguez and his wife, Margaret, which I understand a part your “concilio.”
Blessings,
Ray
Dear Rajan, David, Ray etc etc
Can any of you answer the following.
Revelation 014:003 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
014:004 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Read again the 4th verse slowly and carefully.
1) WHAT IS YOUR EXPLANATION ON THIS VERSE? PARTICULARY NOT DEFILED WITH WOMEN; FOR THEY ARE VIRGINS!!!
other questions
2) WHY DID JESUS DID NOT MARRY??
3) JESUS DISCIPLES WERE MARRIED. JESUS ASKED THEM TO LEAVE EVERYONE, FORSAKE THEMSELVES AND FOLLOW JESUS. WHY DID JESUS SAID LIKE THIS TO PETER, JOHN etc..???
——————————————————–
Dont bring Ramankutty or Freddy Paul in between. They did not write any epistles of Bible, niether their teachings are there in Bible.
Let’s talk from Bible only….
Dear Rajan, I am not zealous for TPM, but for truth. If you praise TPM or criticise TPM, it has nothing to loose nor gain. Its ur life which would be either in Hell or Heaven. TPM will neither be in Heaven or Hell. Its just like a school or a college.
There are many believers, workers in TPM who are workers of inqiuity but that doesnt mean that all are same. Even if all were same, what has it to do with your personal life.
You are suppose to look to Jesus. If Jesus did all these rubbish things posted here, if his initial apostles did all these things, you too are allowed to do. If Jesus, Peter, John, Paul went to doctors for healing, you too can go. If Jesus, Peter, John, Paul were more interested in doing ministry after marriage or with a lady, you all have the permission.
Rajan, you need to read Rev 14:4 verse again and again. If you get any better revelation, please share with me. I will be happy to share with our TPM Guys, provided your revelation make sense.
Hope this is fair.
Regards
JACOB
Jacob said…
“Revelation 014:003 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
014:004 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Read again the 4th verse slowly and carefully.
1) WHAT IS YOUR EXPLANATION ON THIS VERSE? PARTICULARY NOT DEFILED WITH WOMEN; FOR THEY ARE VIRGINS!!!”
I respond…
The first thing you must realize is that the 144,000 are Jewish evangelists. We find this in the seventh chapter of Revelation, 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. It is NOT those who “consecrated” their lives in TPM. Secondly, ask yourself this question: Do you believe that marriage is “defiling”? According to Scripture, marriage was instituted by God (read Genesis 2:18-25), where He declared “It is NOT good for man to be alone.” Thus, when Scripture speaks of those who are “not defiled with women”, it must mean something else. Considering that the book of Revelation contains much allegory, the word “women” could refer to apostate churches or religious groups. A good example is the “woman” of Revelation 12 which doesn’t seem to be an actual woman. Throughout church history, the “woman” was considered to be Israel or the church, from whence the manchild (Christ) came. Again, for you to think that this verse points to the celibate, would demand that you also think that marriage “defiles” which is anti-Biblical.
Jacob said…
2) WHY DID JESUS DID NOT MARRY??
I respond…
Why are you asking that question? Jesus is GOD, the second Person of the Trinity. Why would God marry His creation? I doubt if any of the TPM workers would ask that question. If they do, they should be rebuked and taken out of ministry. To indulge the possibility seems almost heretical.
3) JESUS DISCIPLES WERE MARRIED. JESUS ASKED THEM TO LEAVE EVERYONE, FORSAKE THEMSELVES AND FOLLOW JESUS. WHY DID JESUS SAID LIKE THIS TO PETER, JOHN etc..???
Jesus DID NOT ask His disciples to leave everyone. I don’t know where you read that He did. If you are referring to Mark 10:28-30, Christ is making no such command, especially regarding those HE joined together (again read Genesis 2:18-25). Later, we find that Peter took his wife on his trips (1 Corinthians 9:5). This is AFTER Christ had already ascended. Another assumption you make is that leaving “everyone” must mean “celibacy.” Where do you make that connection?
Jacob said…
1. Dont bring Ramankutty or Freddy Paul in between. They did not write any epistles of Bible, niether their teachings are there in Bible.
I respond…
You are correct about the latter. There teachings (Ramankutty and Freddy Paul) are NOT in the Bible. Maybe it’s irony that you say this.
Jacob said…
Let’s talk from Bible only….
I respond…
Of course! That’s what I have been using.
Jacob said…
Dear Rajan, I am not zealous for TPM, but for truth. If you praise TPM or criticise TPM, it has nothing to loose nor gain. Its ur life which would be either in Hell or Heaven. TPM will neither be in Heaven or Hell. Its just like a school or a college.
I respond…
If you are truly seeking truth than you should question your interpretations and how you inflict such things as “celibacy” into these verses. If you read them carefully, you will find nothing of the sort.
Jacob said…
There are many believers, workers in TPM who are workers of inqiuity but that doesnt mean that all are same. Even if all were same, what has it to do with your personal life.
I respond…
I don’t know if anyone is getting personal regarding the ministers. With me, this isn’t the case. I am only interested in the truth of their TEACHINGS and NOT their behavior or Christian walk.
Jacob said…
You are suppose to look to Jesus. If Jesus did all these rubbish things posted here, if his initial apostles did all these things, you too are allowed to do. If Jesus, Peter, John, Paul went to doctors for healing, you too can go. If Jesus, Peter, John, Paul were more interested in doing ministry after marriage or with a lady, you all have the permission.
I respond…
Jesus did not degrade doctors; neither did he endorse celibacy after marriage. One can do what one wants within the grace God has given them. But if they marry, they have not sinned (1 Corinthians 7:28). And if they marry, they are not to practice celibacy. They are only to separate for a time, for fasting and prayer, and then they are to come together again so that Satan doesn’t tempt them for lack of self-control.
Jacob said…
Rajan, you need to read Rev 14:4 verse again and again. If you get any better revelation, please share with me. I will be happy to share with our TPM Guys, provided your revelation make sense.
Hope this is fair.
I respond…
On the contrary, YOU should read the passage again and realize that it isn’t speaking of celibacy at all, but only that they weren’t “defiled with women.” They could be married and still not be “defiled.” That is unless you believe that marriage “defiles” and I don’t think you want to do that.
Peace,
Ray
Hi Everyone,
The response of Bro. Ray to Jacob is very clear and Biblical.
Jacob, Jim, Anil, Robinson are just another group of TPM fanats with no decent knowledge of the scriptures.
Regarding Rev 14:4 the following needs to be considered:
1. IF AS TPM CLAIMS THAT WOMEN DEFILE THEN TPM SHOULD ABSTAIN FROM TAKING WOMEN INTO FULLTIME MINISTRY.
BUT STRANGELY, THEY TAKE WOMEN AS FULL TIME WORKERS TO CLEAN VESSELS, LAVATORIES, SWEEP FLOORS, RUN ERRANDS FOR ELDERS ETC. THUS TPM HAS CONTRADICTED THEMSELVES.
2. SECONDLY IF AS TPM CLAIMS THAT MARRIAGE DEFILES A MAN THEN TPM SHOULD ABSTAIN FROM CONDUCTING MARRIAGES IN THE FAITHOME.
BUT TPM CONDUCTS MARRIAGES IN THE FAITHOMES AND THEREBY DEFILES THEIR BELIEVERS. THIS IS THEIR OTHER CONTRADICTION.
3. JESUS NEVER STIPULATED ANYWHERE THAT APOSTLES SHOULD BE EUNUCHS (UNMARRIED).
BUT IN A FUNNY MANNER TPM STIPULATES THAT APOSTLES SHOULD BE UNMARRIED. (THIS FALSE DOCTRINE IS JUST TO PROJECT THAT THEY ARE SUPERIOR)
4. JESUS NEVER COMMANDED ANYONE TO FORSAKE WIFE IN ORDER TO COME FOR FULLTIME MINISTRY. INSTEAD JESUS COMMANDED TO FORSAKE THE WIFE IF THE WIFE OR ANYONE HINDERED A PERSON FROM FOLLOWING JESUS AND GAINING ETERNAL LIFE.
BUT TPM FALSELY CLAIMS THAT FULLTIME WORKERS NEED TO FORSAKE THEIR WIFE.
5. 1 CORINTHIANS CHAPTER 7 WAS WRITTEN BY PAUL TO BELIEVERS AND NOT TO WORKERS. PAUL (PERSONALLY AND NOT AS A COMMAND OF THE LORD ) COMMENDS BELIEVERS NOT WORKERS TO LIVE AN UNMARRIED LIFE.
BUT TPM TWISTED THE VERSE IN 1 CORINTHIANS OUT OF ITS CONTEXT AND COMMANDS FULLTIME WORKERS IN TPM TO BE UNMARRIED.
REMEMBER, FRIENDS, TPM SHOWS EVERY SIGN OF THE END TIME FALSE TEACHERS. THEY DO ALL THESE DISTORTIONS OF THE VERSES IN THE SCRIPTURE JUST TO SEEK GLORY FOR THE WORKERS.
THE BRAINWASHED BELIEVERS ALSO GLORIFY THE WORKERS RATHER THAN GLORIFY JESUS.
BEWARE OF TPM!! SEEK THE HOLY SPIRIT NOT TPM WORKERS.
DEAR BRETHREN,
FIRSTLY ACTS 6:2 SAYS:
SO THE TWELVE GATHERED ALL THE DISCIPLES TOGETHER AND SAID, “IT WOULD NOT BE RIGHT FOR US TO NEGLECT THE MINISTRY OF THE WORD OF GOD IN ORDER TO WAIT ON TABLES.
SECONDLY LUKE 6:13 SAYS:
WHEN MORNING CAME, HE CALLED HIS DISCIPLES TO HIM AND CHOSE TWELVE OF THEM, WHOM HE ALSO DESIGNATED APOSTLES:
NOTE:
ALL FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST ARE DISCIPLES. JESUS CHOSE 12 AMONG THE DISCIPLES AND CALLED THEM APOSTLES.
HOWEVER TPM FALSELY TEACHES THAT ONLY THE APOSTLES ARE DISCIPLES. BE VERY CAUTIOUS OF THE TEACHINGS OF TPM.
GOD BLESS YOU ALL.
I READ THE FOLLOWING ILLUSTRATIONS WHICH WERE VERY TRUE:
ILLUSTRATION 1:
STATEMENT 1: MALLUS ARE A PART OF INDIANS.
STATEMENT 2: INDIANS SHOULD SING THE NATIONAL ANTHEM.
TRUE CONCLUSION: MALLUS SHOULD SING THE NATIONAL ANTHEM.
FALSE CONCLUSION: ONLY MALLUS SHOULD SING THE NATIONAL ANTHEM. (THIS IS TPM STYLE INTERPRETATION)
BIBLE TRUTH:
STATEMENT 1: APOSTLES ARE SELECTED FROM JUST A PART OF DISCIPLES. (LUKE 6:13)
STATEMENT 2: ALL DISCIPLES SHOULD HATE THEIR RELATIVES (IF RELATIVES ARE A HINDRANCE TO GAIN ETERNAL LIFE.) (LUKE 14:26)
TRUE CONCLUSION: ALL DISCIPLES INCLUDING THE APOSTLES SHOULD HATE THEIR RELATIVES (IF RELATIVES ARE A HINDRANCE TO GAIN ETERNAL LIFE.)
FALSE CONCLUSION: ONLY APOSTLES SHOULD HATE THEIR RELATIVES. (THIS IS TPM INTERPRETATION)
TPM MAKES THE FALSE CONCLUSION AS MARKED ABOVE AND THE INTERESTING THING IS THAT THEY ARE VERY PROUD OF THEIR LOUSY INTERPRETATIONS.
APOSTLES ARE JUST PART OF DISCIPLES. ALL DISCIPLES ARE NOT APOSTLES.
Dear Ray,
First let me reply you. And then to Margret
Who told you that 144000 in Rev 14 Jewish evangelists??? Is this your realization?? How??? I dont need to realize…. and that too realize???? What do you mean by realize??? Biblical things are not something to realize. It can only be undersood by the knowledge of God through Holy Spirit.
I thought you are an Ex-TPM and so you would be having such minimum knowledge about bible, if not enough!!! I was wrong. It is unfortunate that you dont know these basic things from bible.
You also said that it might be something else?? what is that something else?? You deny it as something and you say that it is something else when you too dont know what it is??? When you say it is not, you should have an answer about what it is?
I would also teach you one more thing that when one is anointed with Holy Spirit, he is not alone!!! For this understanding you need a greater revelation!!! But unfortunately your post shows, you dont have even the basic knowledge.
I am not blaming you or accusing you. If you feel that sort, please forgive me in the name of Lord Jesus. While writing this, I am praying that God help you to understand higher things!!!
Did you ever met any Israelian or went to Israel?? I have and with my personal experience and knowledge about them during interactions with them, and FOR YOUR INFORMATION , JEWS EVEN TODAY, DO NOT BELIEVE IN JESUS!!!!!THEY DONT ACCEPT HIM AS SON OF GOD. THEY ARE STILL WAITING FOR A MESSIAH!!!!
If so, how can the name of the Lamb would be written on their forehead???? Lamb here shows Jesus. I hope you would know this at least!!!!
Dear, Ray, before commenting on TPM and its doctrines, or ministers, or even celebacy, My Humble and Kind request to you is to please go to any Bible College or read Bible asking Holy Spirit to give you understanding about these things!!! Dont realize anything, let Holy Spirit explain you or teach you….
Second part,
My understanding about marriage is 1Cor 7:9. If marriage was that much necessary, Jesus too should had married. I take your point, “Why should He marry his creation?” Okay. Then God could had incarnated in a female version and Jesus could had got a bride!!! No need to marry humans, which He created.
Dear Ray, marriage is not a heavenly principle.. God is not married, Angels are not married….Please understand this…Even if you are married here, you will not be a married person in heaven, provided you are there in Heaven, by God’s grace.
Third point, you said, Jesus did not degrade doctors.
I ask, did Jesus sent all those to doctors who came to him for healing?? i.e. If you were a known doctor to me in my city and still if I go to a different doctor, is it not a degrade/shame to you….What more degradation of doctors you wanted Jesus to do??
Dear Ray, Kindly pray to God that He may give you a better and higher understanding in spiritual things. I too pray for you. Please pray for me too….
Regards
JACOB
Dear Ray,
First let me reply you. And then to Margret
Who told you that 144000 in Rev 14 Jewish evangelists??? Is this your realization?? How??? I dont need to realize…. and that too realize???? What do you mean by realize??? Biblical things are not something to realize. It can only be undersood by the knowledge of God through Holy Spirit.
I thought you are an Ex-TPM and so you would be having such minimum knowledge about bible, if not enough!!! I was wrong. It is unfortunate that you dont know these basic things from bible.
You also said that it might be something else?? what is that something else?? You deny it as something and you say that it is something else when you too dont know what it is??? When you say it is not, you should have an answer about what it is?
I would also teach you one more thing that when one is anointed with Holy Spirit, he is not alone!!! For this understanding you need a greater revelation!!! But unfortunately your post shows, you dont have even the basic knowledge.
I am not blaming you or accusing you. If you feel that sort, please forgive me in the name of Lord Jesus. While writing this, I am praying that God help you to understand higher things!!!
Did you ever met any Israelian or went to Israel?? I have and with my personal experience and knowledge about them during interactions with them, and FOR YOUR INFORMATION , JEWS EVEN TODAY, DO NOT BELIEVE IN JESUS!!!!!THEY DONT ACCEPT HIM AS SON OF GOD. THEY ARE STILL WAITING FOR A MESSIAH!!!!
If so, how can the name of the Lamb would be written on their forehead???? Lamb here shows Jesus. I hope you would know this at least!!!!
Dear, Ray, before commenting on TPM and its doctrines, or ministers, or even celebacy, My Humble and Kind request to you is to please go to any Bible College or read Bible asking Holy Spirit to give you understanding about these things!!! Dont realize anything, let Holy Spirit explain you or teach you….
Second part,
My understanding about marriage is 1Cor 7:9. If marriage was that much necessary, Jesus too should had married. I take your point, “Why should He marry his creation?” Okay. Then God could had incarnated in a female version and Jesus could had got a bride!!! No need to marry humans, which He created.
Dear Ray, marriage is not a heavenly principle.. God is not married, Angels are not married….Please understand this…Even if you are married here, you will not be a married person in heaven, provided you are there in Heaven, by God’s grace.
Third point, you said, Jesus did not degrade doctors.
I ask, did Jesus sent all those to doctors who came to him for healing?? i.e. If you were a known doctor to me in my city and still if I go to a different doctor, is it not a degrade/shame to you….What more degradation of doctors you wanted Jesus to do??
I also want to add here, that Jesus died for our Sins, Curse and Sicknesses. If he had to die for our sins, there was no reason for Him to be thrashed by Jews. They could had simply hanged Him. The word of God says, “By His stripes, we are healed”. You are degrading Jesus’s death by your disbelief.
During Jesus’s time on earth, disciples of Jesus tried to heal a sick son, but could not. The father of that son came to Jesus, complaining that your disciples could not heal my son. He was more interested to see whether the disciples could heal him, else he would not had complained about this. The healing could not take place due to two main persons.
1) The person getting healed was not having belief
2) The person who healed also had no belief.
Both had doubts. Even today there are many Pastors, Believers and people who doubt this. If Pastors have faith to heal and believers not, the thing would not work. If believer have a perfect faith and the healer not, it would not work. Unfortunately, we dont have Jesus in person to heal right away even after the disbelief of either side.
Dont blame God for your disbelief.
Dear Ray, Kindly pray to God that He may give you a better and higher understanding in spiritual things. I too pray for you. Please pray for me too….
Regards
JACOB
Sorry, by mistake, it got pasted twice. Neverthless, kindly reach the last portions of second post, which are not in first posts..
sorry again.
JACOB
Sorry, by mistake, it got pasted twice. Neverthless, kindly read the last portions of second post, which are not in first posts..
sorry again.
JACOB
Dear Margret,
You said, “Jacob, Jim, Anil, Robinson are just another group of TPM fanats with no decent knowledge of the scriptures.”
You called us FANATS!!!
Read Mathew 5:22.
I think you would be in Hell Fire!!! Fanats is equivalent to Fool, Stupid etc.
We could had discussed on your points through Word of God, if you were a part in Kingdom of God. As of now, I see, you are not. My advice is kindly repent, perhaps God may have kindness and forgive you. I too pray for you.
Regards
JACOB
Dear John Kurien,
What do you want to say here??
I doubt even Ray, Margaret or other TPM Opposers would had understood you!!!
We are not talking here about Mallus or Indians,,, for your kind information..
Dont jump on to a running train!!!!
Regards
JACOB
Dear Ray, Margaret
Also read Mathew 22:29,30, which is a proof that there is no policy of marriage in heaven.
Read the above verses and you read that Jesus was asked, ” Therefore in resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven??”
Read 31,32 Did you notice any answer from Jesus?? Instead, Jesus takes the matter to another point and ends the discussion by Living and Dead.
Dont you see here that Jesus was not interested in such marriage related questions??? He seemed to side track from the original question???
Read verse 33 – “And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine”
why becuase, like you, they too could not understand the doctrine of celebacy or no-marriage method in heaven.
Similarly, in TPM, we are less interested in Marriage and Marriage related things. THIS IS ONLY APPLICABLE TO THOSE PEOPLE WHO STRICTLY LOVE GOD AND GOD ONLY. Frankly speaking I am not interested in women, marriage or that sort of things.
With this, I also accept that there are people and workers who are interested in marriage, women, sex, etc etc. But none of them are worthy for heaven, unless they sincerely repent.
The idea behind Celebacy in TPM is to practise a life on earth without a wife or a husband, so that you are more comfortable in heaven without a wife or a husband!!!! Nothing else!!!
For Margret’s better understanding, please read the verse again. Rev 14:4. for they are VIRGINS. This word Virgin is normally referred to females. So, this applies to both Male and Female. Practically it means that they maintained their sexual purity and practising absolute obedience to Jesus, referred in 1Cor 7:31,32,33.
Kindly refer to “SPIRIT FILLED LIFE BIBLE, KING JAMES VERSON, PAGE 1930, TRUTH IN ACTION THROUGH REVELATION, POINT NUMBER 5:- KEY TO MORAL PURITY and its Action Revalation Invites….second line
Regards
JACOB
I will skip all the added posts you submitted because they are repetitive. Everything you brought up in them are answered in this post.
Jacob said…
Who told you that 144000 in Rev 14 Jewish evangelists??? Is this your realization?? How??? I dont need to realize…. and that too realize???? What do you mean by realize??? Biblical things are not something to realize. It can only be undersood by the knowledge of God through Holy Spirit.
I respond…
Are you reading what I sent you? It isn’t my “realization” but what Scripture plainly teaches. I gave you the Scriptural evidence in my last post. It is found in Revelation 7:4…
“Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 FROM ALL THE TRIBES OF ISRAEL.”
As for “something to realize”, sorry but do you know how many religions claim to know the “knowledge of God through the Holy Spirit” and, yet, DISAGREE on the very things they claim as that knowledge. The bottom line is SCRIPTURE under the illumination of the Holy Spirit and not some mystical “revelation” as TPM ministers teach.
Jacob said…
I thought you are an Ex-TPM and so you would be having such minimum knowledge about bible, if not enough!!! I was wrong. It is unfortunate that you dont know these basic things from bible.
I respond…
I don’t know what it is that you are saying here, but I can tell you that my knowledge of Scripture has increases dramatically since I left TPM. When I was a member of TPM, I accepted what they taught as God’s revelation to THEM and I didn’t weigh it like a faithful Berean. I rationalized that they were men of God, had deeper knowledge, and who was I to say differently. When I left TPM, I studied Scripture for myself, along with church history, only to find that the “revelations” of past founders and other TPM ministers weren’t taught by the community of believers, from Pentecost onward. Do yourself a favor and listen to some true men of God: John MacArthur, John Piper, Ravi Zacharias, etc.
Jacob said…
You also said that it might be something else?? what is that something else?? You deny it as something and you say that it is something else when you too dont know what it is??? When you say it is not, you should have an answer about what it is?
I respond…
I already answered that. It is allegorical and “women” are apostate churches and beliefs, which these men never tainted themselves with. I am also saying that your interpretation doesn’t fit. You equate being “defiled with women” with being married, this you are saying that marriage is defiling (as the verse states). Furthermore, you equate “virgins” with those who don’t marry, which means that those TPM men who “consecrated” their marriage cannot qualify considering that aren’t “virgins.” They have already consummated their marriages, some even having children. Therefore, your (or TPM’s) interpretation of the verse doesn’t make any sense, especially when God created marriage and called it “good.” Nowhere do you read that God asks anyone to “consecrate” their marriages and become celibates. Do you see how many holes there are in your interpretation? By the way, are you going to answer my question? Do you believe that marriage “defiles”?
Jacob said…
I would also teach you one more thing that when one is anointed with Holy Spirit, he is not alone!!! For this understanding you need a greater revelation!!! But unfortunately your post shows, you dont have even the basic knowledge.
I respond…
Let’s see: I answer you with Scripture and you answer me without it. All you give me is the same TPM-generated buzzwords about “greater revelation.” And then you add some ad hominem in the form of subtle insults. It seems to me that you are the one who needs to think for himself instead of casting your lots with TPM. It is YOUR responsibility to study and it if leads you away from TPM, consider that being the Holy Spirit leading you towards truth.
Jacob said…
I am not blaming you or accusing you. If you feel that sort, please forgive me in the name of Lord Jesus. While writing this, I am praying that God help you to understand higher things!!!
I respond…
I don’t get it. You insult me in your prior paragraph and then you ask for forgiveness in the next. And then you pray that God helps “ME” to “understand higher things.” I would fathom to ask you to pray that God helps you understand sound doctrine and that you would recognize that Scripture has already revealed “higher things” and that it isn’t hidden.
Jacob states…
Did you ever met any Israelian or went to Israel?? I have and with my personal experience and knowledge about them during interactions with them, and FOR YOUR INFORMATION , JEWS EVEN TODAY, DO NOT BELIEVE IN JESUS!!!!!THEY DONT ACCEPT HIM AS SON OF GOD. THEY ARE STILL WAITING FOR A MESSIAH!!!!
I respond…
The prophecy of Revelation 7 is a future event. These Jews will be saved in the end times. The fact is that Jews are being saved in droves every day. There are many Messianic Jews, such as Jews for Jesus, who believe that Christ is the Messiah. You, on the other hand, seem unable to understand that Jews can be saved.
Jacob said…
If so, how can the name of the Lamb would be written on their forehead???? Lamb here shows Jesus. I hope you would know this at least!!!!
I respond…
Again, read the verses in Revelation 7. The 144,000 are sealed on the forehead are 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. These are Jews and not Gentiles and they add up to 144,000. You really need to open your Bible and read. It proves my point very plainly.
Jacob said…
Dear, Ray, before commenting on TPM and its doctrines, or ministers, or even celebacy, My Humble and Kind request to you is to please go to any Bible College or read Bible asking Holy Spirit to give you understanding about these things!!! Dont realize anything, let Holy Spirit explain you or teach you….
I respond…
It is the Holy Spirit Who compels me to teach against false doctrine. You keep “requesting” but you don’t seem to understand what Scripture teaches. If you cannot understand then pray that God will illumine you through His Spirit. I give you Bible, but you give me words.
Jacob states…
My understanding about marriage is 1Cor 7:9. If marriage was that much necessary, Jesus too should had married. I take your point, “Why should He marry his creation?” Okay. Then God could had incarnated in a female version and Jesus could had got a bride!!! No need to marry humans, which He created.
I respond…
Sorry, but this makes no sense. Again, you have to put Paul’s teaching in context. He spoke by permission and not of command. He obligated no one to live a celibate life. He only states his opinion. He is very careful not to command something which God does not command. This is very clear in the chapter. If you can’t understand it, I don’t know what else to do.
Jacob said…
Dear Ray, marriage is not a heavenly principle.. God is not married, Angels are not married….Please understand this…Even if you are married here, you will not be a married person in heaven, provided you are there in Heaven, by God’s grace.
I respond…
Heaven is NOT earth. What God ordained for here is NOT what He ordained above. However, there WILL be a marriage in heaven. The Bride of Christ, remember? The Marriage Supper of the Lamb, remember?
Jacob said…
Third point, you said, Jesus did not degrade doctors.
I ask, did Jesus sent all those to doctors who came to him for healing?? i.e. If you were a known doctor to me in my city and still if I go to a different doctor, is it not a degrade/shame to you….What more degradation of doctors you wanted Jesus to do??
I respond…
You are using human reasoning regarding doctors to make a very weak case for divine healing. Luke was a physician. Paul told Timothy to drink wine, medicinally, for his stomach. In a roundabout manner, Jesus tells that it isn’t those who are well who need a doctor, but those who are sick. Each of these passages acknowledge what doctors and medicine are for, they are for healing. When Christ healed the sick, it was to prove who HE is. Yes, Christ can heal even today, but he has also authorized physicians as well. Can you prove that doctors are “degrading” to Christ using the Scriptures? I really, really doubt it, Jacob.
Jacob said…
Dear Ray, Kindly pray to God that He may give you a better and higher understanding in spiritual things. I too pray for you. Please pray for me too….
You keep saying this, but you have given nothing to ponder upon. You keep appealing to the things that, evidently, TPM has taught you. You won’t get anywhere with this, especially with someone who knows Scripture AND has been a TPM member. If you are going to make an argument, then do so with SCRIPTURE. Yes, I will pray for you, but as to what you want me to believe, I am way beyond that. I recognize it for what it is—false teaching. The way I see TPM is as a denomination that’s blended Hindu-esque philosophy and practice with Christianity, thus resulting in an amalgamation of beliefs that over-spiritualizes what God had intended. Thus, they seek “deeper truths” that are nonexistent and, subsequently, are simply a creation of men. I know that the truth may hurt and that it may sound offensive to you, but I can’t help that. The legalism and false doctrines within TPM are as clear as the hand in front of your face. If you can’t see it, I’ll pray for you, but it’s up to you to accept it or reject it.
Peace,
Ray
Dear Ray,
I think you lost the ground for debating.
Either you have no understanding or you dont want to understand. Read Rev Chapter 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 and then 14. You will realize (as per your method) that those 144000 mentioned in Chapter 7 are not the same which are mentioned in Chapter 14.
You said, ” The 144,000 are sealed on the forehead are 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. These are Jews and not Gentiles and they add up to 144,000. ”
I ask, Where did you find that, those in chapter 7 are sealed on their forehead? I am very much disappointed becuase of your poor knowledge.
You said, “but I can tell you that my knowledge of Scripture has increases dramatically since I left TPM.”
I say, “Yea, I can see that drama here”. Your knowledge should had increased graciously and not dramatically… DRAMATICALLY?????
You asked me the question again. Do I believe marriage defiles? I already answered you through scriptures. My answer is NO. But the aftermath of marriage defiles him completely and takes away him or her from the LORD.
Do you still think and believe that Marriage is a principle in Heaven??? You referred the marriage of LAMB? My Dear, this is just an illustration or reference.
There would not be any practical marriage of Lamb and Bride, as you think. There would not be any sexual relation thereafter nor any childrens out of this marriage. Neither this marriage is between a literal man and woman. Neither they have any sexual attraction to each other as with the earthly marriages.
The marriage of LAMB and BRIDE is an illustration to explain the relation of a husband and wife. Christ will be our head (Husband) and we (those who are worthy) shall be his Body (Bride or Wife)
Had your knowledge not increased dramatically, you should had understood this.
for example, if a child is studying in 5th standard and dramatically put to 10th standard, he would hardly understand anything. But if he had gone through 6, 7, 8, 9, periodically he could had gained knowledge.
Brother Ray, I dont want you to go to TPM.
Luke 9:62. You have looked back went out of TPM. So I would never wish you to come back.
I am happy whereever you are , but at least learn bible properly, not dramatically.
Regards
JACOB
Jacob said…
I think you lost the ground for debating.
Either you have no understanding or you dont want to understand. Read Rev Chapter 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 and then 14. You will realize (as per your method) that those 144000 mentioned in Chapter 7 are not the same which are mentioned in Chapter 14.
I respond…
I didn’t know that I was in a “debate.” Rather, I thought I was in a discussion regarding TPM. Yet, it doesn’t matter how you label it, the reader will note that you really have no basis for claiming that there are two different groups. You claim that they are; you just can’t PROVE that they are. However, in both chapter 7 and 14, the groups are distinguished and flow well one to the other. I’m sorry, friend, but it seems that it is YOU who seem to be losing ground with your arguments, considering you never substantiate the claims you make.
Jacob states…
You said, ” The 144,000 are sealed on the forehead are 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. These are Jews and not Gentiles and they add up to 144,000. ”
I ask, Where did you find that, those in chapter 7 are sealed on their forehead? I am very much disappointed becuase of your poor knowledge.
I quote…
Revelation 14:1—“Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name WRITTEN ON THEIR FOREHEAD.”
The reader will notice the past tense “had” meaning that the Names were ALREADY “written” on their foreheads. Now, let’s backtrack to Revelation 7:3-4…
“Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a SEAL ON THE FOREHEADS OF THE SERVANTS OF OUR GOD.” Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from ALL THE TRIBES OF ISRAEL.”
It is what it is. Both of these groups are one and the same. In chapter 7, these Jews are given the seal (with the Son and Father’s name). In chapter 14, they already have the seal (with the Son and Father’s name). Jacob, instead of saying something is different, why not PROVE that something is different.
Jacob states…
You said, “but I can tell you that my knowledge of Scripture has increases dramatically since I left TPM.”
I say, “Yea, I can see that drama here”. Your knowledge should had increased graciously and not dramatically… DRAMATICALLY?????
I respond…
Once again you trade insult for substance. Sorry, friend, but that isn’t going to get you anywhere. Again, let the reader decide who is speaking God’s truth.
Jacob states…
You asked me the question again. Do I believe marriage defiles? I already answered you through scriptures. My answer is NO. But the aftermath of marriage defiles him completely and takes away him or her from the LORD.
I respond…
You’re kidding, right? Let me see if I got you correctly: Marriage doesn’t defile, but it defiles later, correct. I’m sorry that you view it that way, but I’m married and my wife hasn’t defiled me. If anything, she is a part of me and supports me in my walk with Christ. There is no neglect towards God because we know that He comes first. Again, you really don’t seem to know what you are talking about.
Jacob states…
Do you still think and believe that Marriage is a principle in Heaven??? You referred the marriage of LAMB? My Dear, this is just an illustration or reference.
I respond…
Says who? Jacob?
Jacob states…
There would not be any practical marriage of Lamb and Bride, as you think. There would not be any sexual relation thereafter nor any childrens out of this marriage. Neither this marriage is between a literal man and woman. Neither they have any sexual attraction to each other as with the earthly marriages.
I respond…
In critical thinking, this is what is known as a red herring fallacy. The issue was if there was going to be a marriage in heaven. I proved that there is. You conveniently pull away bringing up other things. Yet, Scripture speaks about a “MARRIAGE” in heaven regardless of how you attempt to sidestep the issue. Sorry, you lost this one too.
Jacob states…
The marriage of LAMB and BRIDE is an illustration to explain the relation of a husband and wife. Christ will be our head (Husband) and we (those who are worthy) shall be his Body (Bride or Wife)
I respond…
The marriage of the Lamb and the Bride isn’t mere “illustrations”, but a distinction of how Christ loves the Church. He loved the Church so much that He gave His life for it, just like we are to love our wives so much that we would give our lives for them. Christ doesn’t separate Himself from the Bride but loves her and nurtures her. Haven’t you ever read Ephesians 5? Again, you need to stop reading in your own interpretations and let Scripture speak for itself.
Jacob states…
Had your knowledge not increased dramatically, you should had understood this.
I respond…
Again, insults do not make you “correct.” I stand by my words, ever since I left TPM, my understanding of Scripture has increased dramatically. This seems to bother you. Is it possible that you know that what I speak is the truth?
Jacob states…
for example, if a child is studying in 5th standard and dramatically put to 10th standard, he would hardly understand anything. But if he had gone through 6, 7, 8, 9, periodically he could had gained knowledge.
I respond…
And yet if a child had already gone through 6, 7, 8, and 9, that would mean his knowledge had increased “dramatically.” You are playing on jots and tittles and it doesn’t look well for you.
Think of me as someone who has already run the full gamut and isn’t confounded by TPM’s strange doctrines. Think of me as someone who realized that—before TPM ever existed—there was a 2,000 year old church that NEVER taught the distinctives TPM does. There was a 2,000 year old community of believers, from Pentecost onward that would decry what TPM teaches. Yet, you choose to follow a group, started by a Hindu convert, who wasn’t satisfied with traditional Christianity and introduced ascetic practices to indigenous people, in the form of Christianity. I really wish you would stop with these strange analogies and prove your statements.
Jacob states…
Brother Ray, I dont want you to go to TPM.
Luke 9:62. You have looked back went out of TPM. So I would never wish you to come back.
I respond…
Er…nice twisting of Scripture, Jacob. In CONTEXT, the passage speaks about the urgency of following Christ. That no man can go back to bury their dead or say goodbye to family, but follow Christ. You made it sound as if this applies to TPM. Again, nice twisting of Scripture.
Jacob states…
I am happy whereever you are , but at least learn bible properly, not dramatically.
I respond…
My life is one that is devoted to the study of Scripture. I suggest you do the same and quit relying on what others tell you. Harboring on tedious, opportunistic insults which have no value isn’t going to get you very far, Jacob. It will just prove what I’ve been saying for quite some time—that TPM adherents build their Christianity on emotionalism and dependence, rather than on sincere study under the illumination of the Holy Spirit, thus insults become a defense.
By the way, I did point out some things to you that you’ve ignored, such as married couples who practice celibacy, especially those who have children. Evidently, they are not “virgins” anymore. How does that fit in with your interpretation of Revelation 14:4? Did they miraculously become “virgins” again? Or do you concede the point.
Peace,
Ray
Jacob,
I am a TPM believer living in Canada. I accidentally stumbled upon this blog. Whenever, I come across a blog or article that discusses the doctrines/practices of TPM, I just read it out of curiosity to know what others think of us, but never respond or comment, for I know it will only lead to ungodly arguments not serving any divine purpose. It would be far better to spend ones time and energy for God in other fruitful ways like praying, evangelizing, etc. rather than stooping down to very cheap debates which will never save a single lost soul.
Yet, I respond to your comments this time, mainly to address a few grey areas in your postings, just to make sure others don’t get TPM wrong.
You said:
“Similarly, in TPM, we are less interested in Marriage and Marriage related things. THIS IS ONLY APPLICABLE TO THOSE PEOPLE WHO STRICTLY LOVE GOD AND GOD ONLY. “
My response:
Being a TPM member, I disagree with your statement that we (believers) are less interested in marriage. In fact, in all the faithhomes all over the world married believers out number the unmarried ones by a vast majority. Only 2 percent of the believers of marriageable age remain unmarried, very few by choice, the others because they could not find a suitable match. I always rejoice and thank God for the many children in our Sunday schools….for we need more Godly children in this wicked generation to sustain HIS work till the appearance of Jesus.
If everyone remains unmarried like you, we will not have workers in the future to run the church (should the Lord’s coming tarry). As I know, TPM is not against marriage and TPM pastors gladly and cheerfully conduct marriages and bless the couple.
You said:
“Frankly speaking I am not interested in women, marriage or that sort of things”
My response:
This is your personal choice and this does not make you better than other believers. If you believe, your un-married status makes you a better believer or qualifies you to heaven, then you are relying on your works and not on the grace of God. God ordained marriage and Jesus performed His first miracle in a wedding reception….and so, no one can speak against marriage.
Interestingly, even the antichrist has no desire for women (Daniel 11:37)!
You will be surprised to see more people in Heaven who were married in this world than those who were unmarried in this world.
You said:
“With this, I also accept that there are people and workers who are interested in marriage, women, sex, etc etc. But none of them are worthy for heaven, unless they sincerely repent.”
My response:
You make it appear that ‘sex’ is wrong. I very strongly disagree with you. Sex within marriage is not wrong or sin. You seem to confuse ‘sex’ with ‘lust’. God created man with sexual desire and devil twisted that into lust. Sex within marriage is not a sin, whereas, lustful activities (adultery, fornication, homo sexuality…) are sin. That is the reason God ordained marriage so that man will not sin by falling into lust. This is very clearly outlined in the scriptures.
Why anyone saved by the blood of Christ should be considered not worthy of Heaven just because they are married or have sex within marriage….and, why should they sincerely repent for having married. This is totally unscriptural and none of our pastors will agree to this. If they do, then why do they conduct marriages in our faithhomes?
For your information, I am a married believer and my marriage was ordained by a center pastor in a faithhome in India. I have a God fearing daughter who is a witness for Jesus in the University she attends. My marriage (or family life) was never a hindrance to my spiritual life nor did my love for Jesus diminish because of it. To be fair, my wife is a strong source of encouragement in my walk with God during my times of trials.
You said:
“The idea behind Celebacy in TPM is to practise a life on earth without a wife or a husband, so that you are more comfortable in heaven without a wife or a husband!!!! Nothing else!!!”
My response:
This is complete nonsense and unscriptural. To believe those who were married in this world will be less comfortable in Heaven is absurd. By the same token, people who were unmarried in this world will be more comfortable in Heaven…eh…sounds funny. This is very clearly Jacob’s doctrine and not TPM’s. My friend, whoever makes it to Heaven will be very very comfortable there irrespective of their status in this world. You don’t have to make extra effort in this world to be comfortable in Heaven.
This clearly shows that some people want to attain Heaven by their works and not by grace. You don’t earn salvation by your works…it is a gift given to the most unworthy! I know of some TPM workers who go the extra mile (things not commanded in the Scriptures) like advising the believers to shave off their mustache, abstaining from any physical relationship with their spouse and treating them as sisters, wearing white clothes even to work (by the way workers in North America don’t wear white clothes even for Sunday worships), etc. These are works and such people have clearly fallen from Grace, be it TPM or any other denomination. Such TPM workers bring disrepute to the church and are stumbling blocks to others from knowing the truth.
Whether one is married or unmarried, all human beings are sinners in the eyes of God and not worthy of Heaven. It is only by the work of Jesus on the cross and His boundless mercies that we become worthy of Heaven, not by our works.
To conclude: Marriage does not defile.
I was compelled to respond to this posting just to clear the misgivings about marriage in TPM to other fellow believers in Christ.
Let the Name of Jesus be glorified.
Dear Ray,
First lets clear the Rev 7 and Rev 14!!
I will come on marriage and celebacy later. Unfortunately some TPM People are also having no better understanding on this. So, I will come to this point later.
On 144000 referred in Rev 7 & 14, kindly have a look at this website. They share another story.
http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/604-who-are-the-144-000-of-revelation-7-and-14
So, now who is correct?
Jacob
Dear Abas,
Can you please tell me what is your age? How long had you been attending TPM Church in Canada?
If your marriage is being conducted by a Centre Pastor, it doesn’t mean you are a special person. Co-incidently all marriages in TPM are conducted by Centre Pastors only…. for your information.
Let me ask you this, ” DID THE CENTRE PASTOR ASK YOU BEFORE MARRIAGE AT ANY POINT OF TIME….”IS THIS MARRIAGE NECESSARY”??? IF HE HAD ASKED YOU AND AT THAT TIME IF YOU HAVE NODDED YOUR HEAD WITH SHAME AND SUBMISSION, CONSIDER THE EVENT. THINK OF IT AGAIN. YOU WILL FIND YOUR ANSWER. If your Centre Pastor had not asked you this question, he ____________________. I dont fill it. Any TPM Guy can fill this blank.
I have attended a number of marriages of relatives and I have heard many of them asking to the bride and groom, whether this marriage was necessary…..
If there are any other TPM members reading this blog and are married or unmarried, I ask you all, did you ever notice this question during marriage???
Dear Abas, Do you also think, all of these TPM Workers, if counted worldwide would be in millions, are having no understanding??? Unlike in the old times, the people who enter to ministry now-a-days are highly educated and also from well-to-do families. I have a serious doubt whether all of them can be brain-washed together!!!! And all of them have no understanding concerning marriage and celebacy!!!!
Dear Abas, it seems, since you are married, you want to defend yourselves.
You want all the people to be married just to produce children for Sunday Schools??? For Future Workers?? What a great Idea!! It would be better to convert those who are already in darkness and lost in this better, rather than to produce childrens and make them follow Jesus. Jesus has not come for the childrens of TPM Father Mother or Christian Father Mother. He came for the lost ones. Your future children and future workers cannot be these lost ones!!!
Read Luke 3:8 last portion. God will think of future workers and future sunday school childrens. Dont produce children for this purpose.
You also said, “GOD MADE MAN WITH SEXUAL DESIRE”
O God, what a bizzare statement and that too from a TPM Guy…Please forgive him…..
I had heard and read that God made man in His own image and likeness, which means externally and internally. Can you define the word LIKENESS… If you say man was created with sexual desire, God too should have sexual desire, since He made him in his Likeness..
Then you say, Sex in marriage is not wrong nor sin. So if take it reverse it is good, pure and edifying thing??? What a great understanding you have!!!!
You then teach me the difference of LUST and SEX… Let me use worldly language to explain you. Every human being in the earth can only do sex, if they have lust. Unfortunately, God has not created man with an erect penis. (I am sorry to all female blog readers, but I had no other option to explain this to Mr Abas). No man in this world had been able to do sex without an erected penis, and for an erection if you say you do not lust, but pray (as you claim that sex is not sin but pure thing), you are a strange creature on earth.
Dear Abas, you better read blogs and learn from it. Stop writing posts like this. Dont show your filthy knowledge …which I understand from your post that GOD HAD SEXUAL DESIRE, AS HE MADE MAN IN HIS OWN IMAGE AND LIKENESS WITH SEXUAL DESIRE…..come on….
Regards
JACOB
Dear Abbas,
I beg you pardon for the word “creature” used in the previous post. This is not the correct word. I am sorry, please forgive me.
I should had wrote,” you are a strange creation”
Regards
JACOB
To All Blog Readers,
See the below statement from Mr Abas. You can read it in his post dated June 12 – 2009 at 6:21PM
“You don’t have to make extra effort in this world to be comfortable in Heaven.”
He mean to say, WALK-IN Christian Life. Just like Walk-In interview. Come with hands free and go hands free.
All through the New Testament, we can see the labour and pain taken by our Lord Jesus to spread the gospel, Peter, John, Paul etc… I dont know anywhere it is written that all had their life on earth without any effort or pain.
Do anybody agree to Mr Abas’s statement???
Hello All,
I am recently converted from a Hindu Background.
I am greatly shocked to see such a statement from Mr Abas that God created man with sexual desire.
I think he need to learn bible from Genesis itself.
Ramesh
Hello All,
I am recently converted from a Hindu Background.
I am greatly shocked to see such a statement from Mr Abas that God created man with sexual desire.
I think he need to learn bible from Genesis itself.
Ramesh
Jacob said…
First lets clear the Rev 7 and Rev 14!!
I will come on marriage and celebacy later. Unfortunately some TPM People are also having no better understanding on this. So, I will come to this point later.
On 144000 referred in Rev 7 & 14, kindly have a look at this website. They share another story.
http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/604-who-are-the-144-000-of-revelation-7-and-14
So, now who is correct?
I respond…
Certainly not you; neither the position you hold. By the way, sending me others opinions will be viewed as such “opinions.” There is nothing wrong with an opinion. As the author of the article states, it is dangerous when one pigeonholes their own positions DOGMATICALLY (the example he uses is the Watchtower, Jehovah’s Witnesses). The same goes for you, who doesn’t seem to represent what TPM teaches, and are showing yourself to be incorrectable, regardless of how much you claim to want to know truth.
Peace,
Ray
Ramesh said…
Hello All,
I am recently converted from a Hindu Background.
I am greatly shocked to see such a statement from Mr Abas that God created man with sexual desire.
I think he need to learn bible from Genesis itself.
I respond…
Ramesh, as with any convert, especially from one who is new to the Christian faith, I would advise you not to comment. Because you are new, there is much that you do not know.
God DID create man with sexual desire. I’m shocked that you would think otherwise. Before the fall, God told Adam and Eve…
God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground.” (Genesis 1:28)
How do you think that God intended them to “be fruitful and multiply”? By magic? By osmosis? It was via the act of sex. Thus, God gave man sexual desire.
I don’t mean to sound offensive, but please, don’t overstep your bounds. Learn Scripture BEFORE attempting to comment.
Peace,
Ray
Jacob said…
Let me ask you this, ” DID THE CENTRE PASTOR ASK YOU BEFORE MARRIAGE AT ANY POINT OF TIME….”IS THIS MARRIAGE NECESSARY”??? IF HE HAD ASKED YOU AND AT THAT TIME IF YOU HAVE NODDED YOUR HEAD WITH SHAME AND SUBMISSION, CONSIDER THE EVENT. THINK OF IT AGAIN. YOU WILL FIND YOUR ANSWER. If your Centre Pastor had not asked you this question, he ____________________. I dont fill it. Any TPM Guy can fill this blank.
I have attended a number of marriages of relatives and I have heard many of them asking to the bride and groom, whether this marriage was necessary…..
I’m sure Abas wouldn’t mind if I correct you.
I respond…
This has got to be one of ODDEST things I have EVER read. Where does it say in Scripture that one has to ask the question: “Is this marriage necessary?” Rather, Scripture tells us…
Whoever finds a wife finds good and gets favor from Jehovah. (Proverbs 18:22)
Jacob states…
Dear Abas, it seems, since you are married, you want to defend yourselves.
I respond…
I didn’t know that people who marry needed to defend themselves.
Jacob states…
You want all the people to be married just to produce children for Sunday Schools??? For Future Workers?? What a great Idea!! It would be better to convert those who are already in darkness and lost in this better, rather than to produce childrens and make them follow Jesus. Jesus has not come for the childrens of TPM Father Mother or Christian Father Mother. He came for the lost ones. Your future children and future workers cannot be these lost ones!!!
I respond…
This is what God said, “Be FRUITFUL, and MULTIPLY, and REPLENISH the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. (Genesis 1:28)
In other words, DON’T listen to Jacob’s odd reasoning, but do as God asked.
Jacob states…
Read Luke 3:8 last portion. God will think of future workers and future sunday school childrens. Dont produce children for this purpose.
I respond…
Jacob, once again, twists Scripture. The verse has NOTHING to do with our subject, but about the Jews who thought they were saved by virtue of being the children of Abraham. Christ reminds them that they were a “brood of vipers” and they needed to bring “fruits worthy of repentance.” Christ uses an analogy saying that God can produce children of Abraham from stones. I hope that Jacob doesn’t think that every Christian should remain celibate so God can raise children from stones 🙂
Jacob states…
You also said, “GOD MADE MAN WITH SEXUAL DESIRE”
O God, what a bizzare statement and that too from a TPM Guy…Please forgive him…..
I respond…
If anything, you should plead with God for forgiveness. To think that you can equate what God has rightfully created for marriage, to be fruitful and multiply (Genesis 1:28), with sin, is going BEYOND what Scripture teaches.
Jacob states…
I had heard and read that God made man in His own image and likeness, which means externally and internally. Can you define the word LIKENESS… If you say man was created with sexual desire, God too should have sexual desire, since He made him in his Likeness..
I respond…
This is just silly reasoning. If what Jacob states is true then that would mean that we should all have God’s internal and external attributes. In other words, according to Jacob’s interpretation, we would ALL be omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent. In other words, we will all be gods. I have yet to meet anyone who has these three attributes. No, being created in God’s image and likeness does not mean that God would function as His creation. God created us with sexual desires and we are to be faithful to our spouses with these desires. It doesn’t mean that God has these same desires. Jacob, you are really off the deep end and you really need to stop speaking about the things you know NOTHING of.
Jacob states…
Then you say, Sex in marriage is not wrong nor sin. So if take it reverse it is good, pure and edifying thing??? What a great understanding you have!!!!
I respond…
SCRIPTURE states: Marriage is HONOURABLE IN ALL, and the bed UNDEFILED: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge. (Hebrews 13:4)
Again, it is strange that Jacob would think otherwise when God states, very clearly, that the marriage bed (the sexual act between a man and wife) is HONOURABLE and UNDEFILED. God will judge only those who fornicate and/or adulterate.
Jacob states…
You then teach me the difference of LUST and SEX… Let me use worldly language to explain you. Every human being in the earth can only do sex, if they have lust. Unfortunately, God has not created man with an erect penis. (I am sorry to all female blog readers, but I had no other option to explain this to Mr Abas). No man in this world had been able to do sex without an erected penis, and for an erection if you say you do not lust, but pray (as you claim that sex is not sin but pure thing), you are a strange creature on earth.
I respond…
There is NOTHING wrong with one LUSTING for his wife or vice versa. WITHIN marriage it is ACCEPTABLE. Lusting OUTSIDE of marriage for OTHERS is WRONG. I really wish you would give me your Faith Home phone number, so that I can call them and point them to this website. So they can correct you.
Jacob stated…
Dear Abas, you better read blogs and learn from it. Stop writing posts like this. Dont show your filthy knowledge …which I understand from your post that GOD HAD SEXUAL DESIRE, AS HE MADE MAN IN HIS OWN IMAGE AND LIKENESS WITH SEXUAL DESIRE…..come on….
I respond…
There is nothing in Abas’ post that can be labeled “filthy and, Jacob, you are the only one who is off-base. You, obviously, have no real Scriptural knowledge and seem to contradict TPM’s teachings at this point, but then again, this is one of the issues that I always had with TPM, the fact that it breeds people like you who speak what they DON’T understand. Please, give me your Faith Home’s phone number. You are in dire need of correction and I will let them speak to you. Again, you seem very uncorrectable.
Again, I find it odd that even a TPM believer can’t correct you, Jacob.
Peace,
Ray
Jacob,
At the outset, let me be clear that I was not surprised by your response to my posting and I was expecting one such. I have seen your earlier responses to others and if I should sum it up in one sentence “your postings sound very immature, arrogant, full of insults to others, twisting the facts, writing totally out of context, passing quick judgments, and more importantly without scriptural support”. The readers of this blog very well know that.
The purpose of my posting was to make it clear to my other fellow Christian believers that TPM does not condemn believers marrying. Your posting appeared to convey the opposite of this and hence my clarification. You had mentioned “Similarly, in TPM, we are less interested in Marriage and Marriage related things” and I wanted to convey to the others outside the TPM fold that this is not true.
Instead of proving your point that TPM condemns or discourages marriage amongst believers, you have in your reply chosen to side track this singular issue that I had raised, and twisted my statements completely out of context.
Here is my response:
You said:
“Can you please tell me what is your age? How long had you been attending TPM Church in Canada?”
My response:
Is this question relevant to my posting? Whether I am young or old, it should not matter to you and does not change or influence the central issue of my comments regarding marriage in TPM. For your information, I have been a member of TPM both in India and Canada long enough to comment on this issue. The readers of this blog don’t care how long either of us are members of TPM, they rather would want to know what is TPM’s stand on marriage. Just focus on this issue and don’t side track.
You said:
“If your marriage is being conducted by a Centre Pastor, it doesn’t mean you are a special person. Co-incidently all marriages in TPM are conducted by Centre Pastors only…. for your information.”
My response:
I never said that I am a special person because my marriage was conducted by a centre pastor. I only mentioned this to state that TPM does accept/recognize the need to get believers married (as per scriptures) and they willingly conduct marriages as outlined by the church rules. If this is not true, how do you explain the thousands of marriages taking place in TPM churches all over the world every month?
You said:
“Let me ask you this, ” DID THE CENTRE PASTOR ASK YOU BEFORE MARRIAGE AT ANY POINT OF TIME….”IS THIS MARRIAGE NECESSARY”??? IF HE HAD ASKED YOU AND AT THAT TIME IF YOU HAVE NODDED YOUR HEAD WITH SHAME AND SUBMISSION, CONSIDER THE EVENT. THINK OF IT AGAIN. YOU WILL FIND YOUR ANSWER. If your Centre Pastor had not asked you this question, he ____________________. I dont fill it. Any TPM Guy can fill this blank.”
My response:
Honestly, this is news to me. I have never come across a single instance in the many marriages I attended in TPM (and including my own marriage) this question ever being asked. I even telephoned other married TPM believers just to make sure I am not writing in a haste just to prove a point, but they all deny that such a question was ever asked to them in their marriage by the ordaining pastor.
FYI, the actual question being asked by the ordaining pastor is “Do you agree to marry this person?” This question is posed to both the groom and the bride and on their confirmation in the affirmative the wedding ceremony continues. This is a practice not only in the TPM church but also in other Christian denomination churches. This is just to ensure that the groom or bride is not forced into a marriage without their consent.
Then a question is asked to the general congregation “If anyone has any valid reason why this marriage should not take place, let him/her announce that now”. Again, on the acceptance of the congregation, the pastor declares “Since no one has raised any objection to this marriage, I continue to solemnize this marriage and no one in the future should talk against this marriage” and with this the marriage ceremony continues.
No pastor ever asks “IS THIS MARRIAGE NECESSARY?” The pastor, the marrying couple, and the congregation all know that this marriage is taking place only because it is necessary and not otherwise. Even then, why should this question be asked at the time of marriage? If a pastor or a worker sincerely thinks that marriage is unnecessary, it will make more sense for them to council the bride or the groom before the marriage, especially before the three banns being published in the groom’s and bride’s churches. Your statement is completely wrong.
Why would the groom or the bride “NOD THEIR HEAD WITH SHAME AND SUBMISSION” as per your statement. Marriage is a joyous occasion for both of them (and their families) and there is no shame in this.
P.S. I thought you were an unmarried person, but reading your earlier posts I found out you are married. In fact, you have stated that you were tricked into marrying the wrong person by TPM workers. If you admit “Frankly speaking I am not interested in women, marriage or that sort of things”, why did you agree to marry in the first place? You could have at least answered in the negative at the time of marriage when the question “Do you willingly and whole heartedly accept this woman in marriage?” was posed to you by the officiating pastor. You could have at least saved the agony of that poor woman. Now, a woman’s life is ruined because of your mistake. How sad! You have brought shame and disrepute to God’s Name. It is an irony that a person who admits failure in his own married life crows about marriage and celibacy with his half baked knowledge of the scriptures. First, set right your own life before writing on this blog.
I quote below an extract from your post dated April 5, 2009:
“You know what, I got married to a girl from TPM and these so-called TPM Ministers played folly to hide all wrong things about this girl, whom I married. Now, she is my wife unfortunately. She also said all lie to me and so I have grudge against her and also those workers. But it has nothing to do with TPM or Jesus or GOD. After this incident, I realised not to believe or trust on any human being. Perhaps, I could had avoided this folly, by sitting in the presence of God and asking for his will.”
Because marriage did not work out in your case, and because of your sour experience, don’t make sweeping statements about Holy Matrimony that are unscriptural. There are millions of others who were united by God in Holy Matrimony and are living a Godly, happy and contended family life (not a dissatisfied married life like yours). No wonder you vehemently support/recommend celibacy to everyone just because of your hatred towards marriage. Even the devil hates marriage and all the time works to separate the married couple, just because it was instituted by God.
You said:
“Dear Abas, Do you also think, all of these TPM Workers, if counted worldwide would be in millions, are having no understanding??? Unlike in the old times, the people who enter to ministry now-a-days are highly educated and also from well-to-do families. I have a serious doubt whether all of them can be brain-washed together!!!! And all of them have no understanding concerning marriage and celebacy!!!!”
My response:
The issue here is not about TPM workers but about the believers who want to marry and TPM’s stand on this. I never questioned about the celibate status of the TPM workers. I acknowledge and admire their decision to remain celibate in order to give their very best to God’s work. Indeed, this is a supreme sacrifice and I am not against any individual believer also taking this step by choice if they have the grace to remain so. But, celibacy is not thrust upon every one and I mentioned that the majority of the TPM believers worldwide are married. The celibate workers solemnized these marriages in obedience to God’s commandment, and how can you say TPM discourages marriage of believers when the facts point out otherwise.
You should also understand that there are not millions of TPM workers worldwide as claimed by you. The total of all the full time workers from the time of founder Pastor Paul has not touched 20,000 yet. You could verify this with the international head quarters administrative office at Irumbuliyur, Chennai (Sis. Kalyani could help in this regard). Whereas, it is the believers who number much more than the workers and a vast majority of these believers are married in obedience to God’s commandment and lead a Godly life (a few exceptions could be there like yours….failed marriages).
It may perhaps come as a shock to you to know that TPM in the western countries (NTC) ordain both married and unmarried persons to full time ministry. In July of 2006, 7 single persons and 2 married families from our churches in the Americas were ordained into the full time ministry by our chief pastor from India, Pastor Wilson. In July of 2007, Pastor Wesley ordained a young family (with 3 children) into the full time ministry.
Besides, there are many married workers in North America who minister with their families in various faithhomes. Do you mean to say Pastor Wilson, Pastor Wesley, and Pastor Michael Thomas (head pastor for the west) have no knowledge about celibacy? They certainly do and practice, but at the same time very well know that marriage does not defile a person and he could still serve God. After all, most of the early apostles were married and ministered with their wives (I Corin. 9:5) and our beloved founder Pastor Paul was a married person. If marriage is a hindrance to God’s work, God would have certainly revealed to him about this.
Your claim TPM is less interested in marriage and marriage related things cannot be substantiated. The facts overwhelmingly point the other way. Most blog readers know that you are trying to sustain a dry, unscriptural argument without any proof or substance. It will not benefit anyone spiritually.
You said:
“Dear Abas, it seems, since you are married, you want to defend yourselves.”
My response:
I am not trying to defend my marriage, I don’t have to and it is also not necessary. I am trying to defend the Word of God regarding holy marriage. I provide some scriptural references below:
It is our holy God who declared right at the beginning “It is not good that man should be alone” (Gen 1:8). It is to be noted that our God did not make this statement AFTER the fall of man but before his fall. It is before the fall of man that God said, “I will make a help meet for him”. Not only our Lord said it, He also made Eve and took her and gave her as Adam’s wife (Gen 2:22). Therefore, it would be an awful blunder to think of married life as an inferior life.
In Mathew 19:6 we see that when two people are united in marriage, it is God who unites them. “So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate”. It says “God has joined together”. Remember our God is a holy God and there is absolutely no impurity in Him. Such a pure God will never unite two of His children as husband and wife in order to make them lead a life of defilement.
The Bible declares “Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled” (Heb 13:14). When the Bible categorically states the marriage bed (sex between husband and wife) is undefiled, how can anyone say that married life defiles those who are engaged in it and therefore such people cannot enter Heaven (or is it they will be uncomfortable in Heaven!).
Our holy Bible compares the love between husband and wife to the love that exists between Christ and the Church. “Husbands, love your wives, EVEN AS Christ also loved the Church” (Eph. 5:25). When the Word of God compares the love between husband and wife to that of our heavenly bridegroom and bride, how dare any one could call it a relationship of defilement? The Bible does warn us saying “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean” (Acts 10:15).
The miracle of Jesus turning water into wine was Jesus’ first miracle (Jn. 2:11). Jesus chose to perform this miracle in a marriage reception. What more proof do we need that Jesus accepts marriage. If Jesus accepts marriage, who are we to preach against it?
As I was writing this, I notice that Ray has posted his reply to other comments made by Jacob. As Ray’s reply and scriptural references are exactly in line with what I was planning to write, I am not going to repeat the same again, but instead request the readers to refer to the previous posting.
Finally you said:
“He mean to say, WALK-IN Christian Life. Just like Walk-In interview. Come with hands free and go hands free.
All through the New Testament, we can see the labour and pain taken by our Lord Jesus to spread the gospel, Peter, John, Paul etc… I dont know anywhere it is written that all had their life on earth without any effort or pain.
Do anybody agree to Mr Abas’s statement???”
My response:
You are again trying to divert the issue. We are talking about marriage here. When you say “labour and pain” here, you must certainly mean the apostles mentioned by you were celibate. But, Peter and John were married. So what are you trying to convey?
Let the blog readers decide whether marriage defiles or separates man from God or makes him uncomfortable in heaven. Any person with even a rudimentary knowledge of the scriptures will disagree with your view.
Let the Name of Jesus be Glorified.
DEAR TPM FRIENDS,
BRO. RAY AND ABAS GAVE A SOUND THRASHING TO THOSE WHO STUBBORNLY PROPOGATE THE TPM LIES!!
1. TPM DOES NOT GIVE COMMUNION TO THOSE WHO TAKE MEDICINES OR THOSE WHO HAVE UNDERGONE SURGERY.
2. THE REASON IS THAT TPM BELIEVES THAT TAKING MEDICINE AND UNDERGOING SURGERY ARE SINS.
3. HOWEVER, TPM GIVES COMMUNION TO THOUSANDS OF DOCTORS, NURSES AND PHARMACISTS WHO PROVIDE MEDICINE TO THE PATIENTS AND WHO CONDUCT SURGERY FOR THE PATIENTS.
4. THIS IS LIKE GIVING COMMUNION TO A PERSON WHO SEVES ALCOHOL IN A BAR.
5. IT IS A WELL KNOWN FACT THAT DRINKING ALCOHOL IS NO GREATER A SIN THAN SERVING ALCOHOL.
THUS TPM CLAIMS THAT CONSUMING MEDICINE IS A SIN AND AT THE SAME TIME GIVES COMMUNION TO DOCTORS WHO PRESCRIBE THOSE MEDICINES.
THOSE TPM DOCTORS, NURSES AND PHARMACISTS ARE NOT COMMANDED TO RENOUNCE THEIR PROFESSION.
YOU KNOW WHY?
BECAUSE TPM IS ACTUALLY AFTER PEOPLE’S MONEY AND PRETENDS TO BE VERY PIOUS AND SIMPLE ACTING LIKE PHARISEES IN WHITE DRESSES!!
GOOD NEWS AT LAST!!
Bro. David Paul was the founder of the Voice of Pentecost in TPM. He has written a book by name “To TPM with Love” exposing the false doctrines of TPM. You can mail to him and receive your free copy at:
fgsfii@yahoo.com
Moreover, Bro. Sam Alangaramoney was one of the pastors in TPM during the times of the TPM founder Pastor. Freddy Paul. Bro. Sam has very good knowledge about the origins of TPM AND he knows that the Founder Pas. Raman Kutty Paul was a married PASTOR and not a celibate. You can mail to him at:
samalan720@hotmail.com
Brethren, do look to the welfare of your spiritual growth. TPM seeks to brainwash you to seek their welfare.
FOCUS ON TRUTH AND NOT ON THE FALSE DOCTRINES OF TPM!!
ABAS!!!!!!!
The name itself suggest, that this person is either Muslim or some other background.
I am amazed to see him talking so foolishly.
Though, Jacob has written a lot of non-sense here, there is some sense in what he said.
But I dont understand, what ABAS speaks about.
Jacob, you need to improve. You might be writing the truth, but need to put in a proper way. Your words are extremely poor.
Peace to you all
Susan
You bloody Churchmouse,
you are already a mouse kicked out of this TPM. I dont who this TPM groups are from.
but i now understand the reason, why they threw you out of their church.
is this what your religion teaches and behaves with a new comer????
Ramesh
Susan,
You can’t be that naive. Not that I believe that Abas is or was ever a Muslim, but let’s say for the sake of argument that a Muslim named “Abas”converts to Christianity and joins TPM. Would he have to change his name after he converts? Or can he remain “Abas”?
I hope this goes to show you just how illogical your assertion is.
Peace,
Ray
Ramesh,
I would suggest that you start with the basics, beginning with *repentance.* You claimed that you are a new convert to Christianity, but judging by your tone and language, where is the repentance? One cannot be a Christian without first repenting. Secondly, a true Christian is one who practices humility, esteeming others better than themselves (Philippians 2:3) and accepting correction from those who know more than you, due to their many years in the Lord. Thirdly, just for the record, I was NOT “kicked out” of TPM. Our church “split” from TPM because of their false doctrines regarding celibacy and medicine.
Peace,
Ray
By the way Susan, I do agree with you. Jacob seems to have a hard time articulating his thoughts correctly. His English is very “broken.” But, moreso, it seems that his marital problems are defining what should be doctrine for him. Just because he had problems with a woman he married doesn’t mean that EVERYONE who gets married has problems too. I feel sorry for him and his marital problems, but personally, I am married as well to a WONDERFUL wife who I have had four WONDERFUL children with. I know that in India the majority of marriages are arranged and, for the most part, these marriages work out just fine. However, I don’t know if this was the case with Jacob, but regardless, he cannot allow his life experiences to dictate what he should believe (doctrine). Scripture is Scripture and nothing that he’s experienced will ever change God’s Word into Jacob’s word.
Peace,
Ray
I think the following is true of TPM. Read and be blessed.
EXPECTING SYMPATHY AND PITY FROM THE BELIEVERS, THE TPM WORKERS SAY WITH TEARS, “WE PRAY CONTINUALLY FOR YOU. WE HAVE GIVEN UP OUR MARRIAGE AND WE ARE HERE TO SERVE YOU FULL TIME”.
THE ABOVE SHOWS THAT THEY TREAT ANOINTED BELIEVERS AS SPIRITUAL KIDS. THEY ARE RELUCTANT TO LET THE BELIEVERS GROW UP AS PRIESTS AND USE THE PRIVILEGE OF A GOD-GIVEN CONFIDENT ACCESS INTO THE MOST HOLY PLACE AFFORDED BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.
THUS, THE CONSECRATION OF WORKERS HAS BEEN GREATLY GLORIFIED INSTEAD OF GLORIFYING THE POWER IN THE BLOOD OF CHRIST. JUST BEWARE BRETHREN. GOD DOES NOT LIKE SUCH AN IDOLATRY OF WORKERS AND BELIEVER-CHILDISHNESS.
THE TPM BELIEVERS DO NOT EVEN KNOW TO SAY “PRAISE THE LORD” TO OTHER CHRISTIANS. SUCH IS THEIR PRIDE. AND THEY CALL IT SEPARATED-LIFE!!
JESUS SEPARATED HIMSELF FROM SIN NOT FROM SINNERS. BUT THESE TPM WORKERS SEPARATE THEMSELVES FROM OTHER SAVED CHRISTIANS. SUCH SEEMS TO BE THEIR HAUGHTINESS. REMEMBER, GOD RESISTS THE PROUD.
DO NOT BE CARRIED AWAY BY THE BLESSINGS THAT TPM PEOPLE HAVE. JESUS SAID THAT HIS FATHER BLESSES EVEN THE WICKED WITH RAIN. SO BLESSING IS NO TEST FOR TRUTH.
TPM TALKS ABOUT “SEPARATED-LIFE” ONLY TO PREVENT THEIR BELIEVERS FROM MINGLING IN UNITY WITH OTHER DENOMINATIONS. AND ALSO TO PROTECT THEIR SUPPLY OF REVENUES!!
JESUS DID NOT SUFFER AND DIE TO CREATE “TPM IDENTITY” BUT TO KEEP ALL DENOMINATIONS “UNITED”. BEWARE OF TPM WHICH TRIES TO SPLIT THE “UNITY” IN THE UNIVERSAL BRIDE CHURCH. THEY WILL BE ACCOUNTABLE.
BTW. who the hell is this so called Rachel I meant the auther who posted this article. What she think abt herself.. She is just showing her feminist views, thats about it
Ray,
I have heard a few TPM unmarried youths making the assertion that marriage relationship defiles a person and would disqualify him from being caught up in the second coming of Christ. Some married TPM believers even try to consecrate their marriage by ceasing to be intimate so that they can go in the rapture.
Although I have never heard any pastor explicitly preach that marital relationship is defiling, I think some rightwing pastors in TPM implicitly teach these faulty doctrines. How else would some of the TPM believers get the idea that intimacy in marriage is sin?
I would like to put this article for the reminder of our friends:
1. TPM DOES NOT GIVE COMMUNION TO THOSE WHO TAKE MEDICINES OR THOSE WHO HAVE UNDERGONE SURGERY.
2. THE REASON IS THAT TPM BELIEVES THAT TAKING MEDICINE AND UNDERGOING SURGERY ARE SINS.
3. HOWEVER, TPM GIVES COMMUNION TO THOUSANDS OF DOCTORS, NURSES AND PHARMACISTS WHO PROVIDE MEDICINE TO THE PATIENTS AND WHO CONDUCT SURGERY FOR THE PATIENTS.
4. THIS IS LIKE GIVING COMMUNION TO A PERSON WHO SEVES ALCOHOL IN A BAR.
5. IT IS A WELL KNOWN FACT THAT DRINKING ALCOHOL IS NO GREATER A SIN THAN SERVING ALCOHOL.
THUS TPM CLAIMS THAT CONSUMING MEDICINE IS A SIN AND AT THE SAME TIME GIVES COMMUNION TO DOCTORS WHO PRESCRIBE THOSE MEDICINES.
THOSE TPM DOCTORS, NURSES AND PHARMACISTS ARE NOT COMMANDED TO RENOUNCE THEIR PROFESSION.
YOU KNOW WHY?
BECAUSE TPM IS ACTUALLY AFTER PEOPLE’S MONEY AND PRETENDS TO BE VERY PIOUS AND SIMPLE ACTING LIKE PHARISEES IN WHITE DRESSES!!
Hi Jonny,
What keeps floating around in my head is being a NTC member (TPM in the USA), falling in love with my wife, and being told that we couldn’t get married because it wasn’t God’s will for us. I remember avoiding the church because they had members coming to our homes, attempting to stop what we planned to do. I remember getting married, going back to church, being called upstairs with my wife, and being told that we disobeyed God’s perfect will. Being a new Christian at the time, I felt ashamed and wondered if God was going to bless my marriage. Well, to make a long story short, God blessed my marriage abundantly and, as I grew in Christ, I began to realize how TPM was just plain WRONG in their teachings. And not just the marriage piece, but also in their teachings on doctors and medicine. TPM’s hold on their members is so overwhelming, that they control them through the mask of “humility.” I thank the Lord for taking me out of a very flawed system.
It doesn’t surprise me that you would hear young people speaking this way. If one is living under the teaching that celibacy is God’s “perfect” way and that one should listen to ministers, rather than what God is saying through His Holy Spirt in regards to one’s life, I would imagine that marriage begins to resemble a quasi-sin.
When our churches split from TPM (and there were quite a few here in the USA), the ministers who broke off told us that many of the churches didn’t outrightly speak against marriage, but some did, Chicago being one of them. However, they also told us that the authorities from India and Sri Lanka were very adamant that ministers were to be celebate, the married living “consecrated lives”, and that members were to be encouraged TOWARD a celibate life and discouraged against marriage. That equates to playing God in my opinion.
Peace,
Ray
Hebrews 13:4 Marriage honourable in all, and the bed undefiled.
Marriage, and sex within the confinement of marriage is not a defilement. Did Jesus attend a wedding which was going to be followed by ‘defilement.” (honeymoon) Only a heratic like
Pastor Alwin can come up with such a doctrine.
The bible says that we the Church are already in Zion!! Heb.12: 22. The veil has been rent and access to the holiest of holies is open to all. It is a gift of God to his children. We do not get anything from God because of what we do. It is not of works of righteousness, but by his grace alone. Alwinism and his personal revelations are from the pit. This is what pastor Freddy Paul, told me personally.
Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled.
Marriage, and sex within the confinement of marriage is not a defilement. Did Jesus attend a wedding which was going to be followed by ‘defilement.” (honeymoon) Only a heratic like
Pastor Alwin can come up with such a doctrine.
The bible says that we the Church are already in Zion!! Heb.12: 22. The veil has been rent and access to the holiest of holies is open to all. It is a gift of God to his children. We do not get anything from God because of what we do. It is not of works of righteousness, but by his grace alone. Alwinism and his personal revelations are from the pit. This is what pastor Freddy Paul, told me personally.
Sam Alan,
When you read the “Biography of Pastor Paul and Other Chief Pastors”, what you notice is that the book says Pastor Paul died in 1945, and then it immediately jumps to 1962 and says the following:
“The year 1962 was a critical period for the Ceylon Pentecostal Mission. In the midst of opposition, storms and winds, he [Freddy Paul] was found with humility and great calmness. He was prepared to meet any kind of danger. Many marvelled, witnessing his manner and sweet nature by which he obtained a great victory when a strong wind of trials blew fiercely in those days. During this period of conflict he revealed many extraordinary virtues. That same year he was ordained to be the Chief Pastor of this Mission with an unanimous approval. Having accepted this esteemed post, he had to shoulder heavy burdens on several occasions.”
Conspicuously, the book is eerily silent on what happened between 1945 and 1962. It does not even mention the name of the Pastor Alwin, who was the cofounder and architect of CPM, even once. Thus, most TPM believers today do not even know the real history of TPM during those silent years. Since you appear to have first hand knowledge, perhaps you can write a brief impartial account if you have the time and interest for the benefit of many.
Dear Jonny,
TPM IS VERY CUNNING IN SUPPRESSING INFORMATION SO THAT THE TPM BELIEVERS DO NOT KNOW THE FULL HISTORY.
TPM IS VERY CONCERNED TO GIVE GLORY TO THE WORKERS. AND FOR THAT THEY WILL GO TO ANY LENGTH AND DISTORT THE MEANING OF VERSES.
THEY WILL ALSO THREATEN THE BELIEVERS WITH CURSES IF THEY SPEAK THE TRUTH. TPM WANTS ALL BELIEVERS TO SING PRAISES OF THE WORKERS.
TPM CAREFULLY HAS COMPOSED MANY SONGS WHICH GLORIFY THE WORKERS AND THEY ALSO CONDUCT SPECIAL BIBLE STUDIES TO GLORIFY THE WORKERS AND THEIR CONSECRATION.
SO WE MUST BE VERY CAREFUL OF TPM AND THEIR SERMONS AND INSTEAD BE TUNED TO GOD.
I WISH AND PRAY THAT BRO. SAM ALAN, WHO WAS AMONG THE TIME OF THE TPM FOUNDERS, TO WRITE A BOOK ON TPM EARLY HISTORY SO THAT THE TPM BELIEVERS ARE WELL AWARE OF THE DOCTRINAL AND HISTORICAL MISREPORTING OF TPM.
A SECRET FROM THE LORD!! (PLEASE READ IT PATIENTLY)
YOU KNOW VERY WELL THAT PROPHET ELIJAH HAD A MANTLE. WHILE HE WAS TAKEN UP, HIS MANTLE FELL ON ELISHA. WHO GAVE THAT MANTLE TO ELIJAH? JESUS CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD.
SIMILARLY, BEFORE THE SECOND COMING, OUR LORD JESUS DESIRES TO PLACE THE MANTLE OF ELIJAH UPON MILLIONS OF ANOINTED BELIEVERS. OUR LORD PLANS TO USE THE ORDINARY ANOINTED BELIEVERS ACCORDING TO THE FOLLOWING VERSE:
JOHN 14: 12: “I TELL YOU THE TRUTH, ANYONE WHO HAS FAITH IN ME WILL DO WHAT I HAVE BEEN DOING. HE WILL DO EVEN GREATER THINGS THAN THESE, BECAUSE I AM GOING TO THE FATHER.”
REMEMBER, THIS PROMISE IS NOT YET FULFILLED. JESUS IS GOING TO FULFILL THIS IN THE END TIME.
MANY PENTECOSTAL BELIEVERS SAY, “I DO NOT HAVE BIBLE WISDOM”, “I AM UNABLE TO PREACH”, “I DO NOT HAVE REVELATION TO PREACH”, “I DO NOT HAVE THE SPIRITUAL GIFTS TO HEAL OR PROPHECY”.
HOWEVER, WHAT DOES THE LORD SAY? “I WILL GIVE YOU THESE. JUST HAVE FAITH. PETER WAS AN ILLITERATE. PAUL WAS TAUGHT JUDAISM NOT THE TRUTH. HOWEVER, I TOOK THESE INSIGNIFICANT WEAKLINGS AND USED THEM. I WILL LIKEWISE USE YOU IF YOU ADMIT YOUR WEAKNESS AND TRUST ME AND MY BOUNTY”.
WILL YOU HEED TO THIS CALL OF THE LORD? THE ISRAELITES DESPISED CANAAN BECAUSE THEY DID NOT HAVE CONFIDENCE IN GOD. WILL YOU ALSO DESPISE THE LORD AND HIS MANTLE?
CONTENTEDNESS:
YOU MAY REST CONTENT WITH YOUR MATERIAL AND FINANCIAL BLESSINGS. HOWEVER, NEVER REST CONTENT WITH SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS. ASK FOR MORE. ASK & WAIT FOR THE GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. JESUS LONGS TO GIVE YOU THE MANTLE.
MOST PASTORS ARE VERY INTENT IN KEEPING YOU “DEPENDENT” ON THEM AND THEIR DENOMINATION JUST FOR YOUR MONEY TO FURTHER PROMOTE THEIR DENOMINATIONS. EXTERNALLY ALL THEIR “TALK” WILL APPEAR “GODLY” BUT DO NOT BE DECEIVED BY THEIR “TALK”.
HENCE, INSTEAD OF FEELING SPIRITUALLY “INFERIOR” LOOK TO JESUS AND HIS MANTLE, WHICH HE LONGS TO GIVE YOU. WALK INTO THE MOST HOLY PLACE WHERE THE FATHER DWELLS. THE HOLY SPIRIT WANTS TO TALK TO YOU DIRECTLY. ASK & LEARN TO LISTEN TO HIM. AVOID TRUSTING IN MIDDLE AGENTS AND BROKERS WHO CRAVE TO MAKE YOU SPIRITUALLY “INFERIOR” TO THEM.
Dear friends,
I have been asked by many to write about Pastor Alwin R de Alwis who was a co Founder of CPm, with Pastor Paul.
I am now seventy one years old. I was brought up in CPM. My late father Pastor Alangaramoney, joined CPm when I was an infant. Since I grew up in Cpm, I am one of the very few, alive, who personally knew him. (Alwin) I was his favourite ‘Blue eyed boy.’
I am refering to Pastor Alwin. When I was 21 he sent me to England, to help Sis. Dorothy in the ministry in England.
I worked there for about six years, and held the fort during the
Great Crisis, after which Pastor Alwin was excommunicated from CPM. I left CPM when I was 27 on my own. Was given a one way ticket to Sri Lanka, with the hope that I will be quiet, and will not cause any problems. They did not like me questioning, or challenging them on any issue.
As a teenager growing up in SL, I began to doubt Alwin. Was he a sincere man or was he a wolf in sheeps clothing?
Pastor Alwin was from a middle class family. A trained teacher, who had a motor cycle. He also claimed to be a boxer. He was the only man who spoke English, among the the ealrly CPMites. Thus he was respected.
Pastor Paul was just a simple man, and he heavily relied on Pastor Alwin.
Pastor Alwin, what kind of a man was he? Was he a saint, or a man who had total victory over all sexual feelings like he claimed. Having known him personally, behind the scenes, I have come to the conclusion that he was a totally defeated man, who tried hard to supress his feelings. He even challenged some saying, that he can never get an ‘errection.’
He got his thrills from reading the book ‘ The woman, the priest and the confessional. He got the Latin sexual terms which he did not understand translated into English, by a Latin Scholar in Sri Lanka. His name was Dr. Bulath Singhala. What for??
Alwin Loved to get confessins from women. I have seen women, sisters, and girls kneeling at his bedside, confessing all their sins. He used to tell me when he asked me to confess my sins and thoughts, ” I dont want head lines, I want details.”
Alwin had the best of food before him 24/7. I used to go personally and buy food for him from Chinese resturants, when the people in Faith homes most of the time did not even get a peice of bread and sambol. He never at like the common worker. As matter of fact no pastors or senior people in CPm to this day sit and eat like the average worker, except in the west.
During the early days Alwin came out with a revelation of “Edenic perfection.’ He was able to convice a few, that once you are saved you are restored to Enenic Perfection. So we can be naked in front of each other and not feel bad about it. He took a few youg men and women and practiced this. Laeer when Pastor Paul came to know about it, he stoped this and warned Alwin not to practice this again. I was told this when I was about twenty in Jaffna. Apparantly a sister who practiced ‘Edenic Perfection.’ confessed this on her death bed. Who would have believed me, had I told this to anyone?
While in England, Alwin got me to install two dead bolts on the inside of doors’ in two different faith homes. One in London and the other in Betchworth, Surrey. He told me that he wanted to pray through to victory, against the troubles in the cpm church. He set the Singhalese against the Tamils, and ordered all the Tamil scripture verses and banners to come off the walls. But in reality, he was ‘Santifying sisters’ behind the doors. I remember Sis Dorothy crying the next day, because she felt violated, and guilty, after what went on the night before. He is guilty of rape. This is the CROOK who came out with the twisted revelaion on Zion, For those who were not defiled by women!!! What a hippocrite.
Pastor S.B Ernest told me how Alwin tried to ‘santify’ a teenage French girl. She told her ,”Pastor I am a virgiN”, to which he replied, ” virginity is in the spirit.” Can you Imagine this coming out of the man who had all the revelations and practices of CPM??
I was in Madras CPM for a few months. Pastor Thambiraja
starved us almost every day. He was another big proponent of Alwins revelation on Zion, CPM style. There were children, young brothers and sisters who were literally living on Kanji, (plain rice with water) for days. One day Thambirajaha called me and told me that, he has lots of money given in trust by Alwin, which he is not permitted to use to buy food for the Faith homes. Will those of you reading this ever do a thing like this if you had children, and brothers and sisters.? All these big pastors were all crooks, power hungry men, who did not have a heart, or basic sympathy. Heart less creatures.
Were these guys worthy to be a Pastor. Thambiraja would tell us not to use perfumed soap, but every time Alwin came to Madras he had the best perfumed soap for Alwin. These guys were Alwin pleasers and not God’s servants. THESE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO SAY ‘WE PREACH THAT WE MAY PRESENT EVERY MAN PERFECT IN CHRIST” Hog wash!!
He put us in a school where we were starved, while Awlin was flying all over the world, and spending thousands on cars. In the school were were sexually molested, and beaten at will by the teachers. There was nobody to defend us or question the teachers. Thank God for men like Frank Williams who challenged Alwin on many issues, and threathened to shut down the school . I have scars on my body from one of the beatings by S.B Ernest. He beat the daylights out of some of us. Alwin, one day grabbed a teenage girl, by he hair and threw her on the floor, for writing a love letter to a boy.
Some people, prophets, and seers, saw a Mansion being built for Alwin. May be the Mansion was remodeled and given to TU
Thomas, who ramed down the throats of the simple people all Alwins Doctrines.
Alwin did not like anybody challenging him on his docrines and personal revelations. When Pastor Freddy Questioned him he was banished to the US. Other people were put of of the Church or silenced, by demotions Etc.
Did Alwin really have great revelations? When Pastor K E Abraham wrote a book on the seven Paradises, Pastor Alwin was taken by surprise, because Alwin had a revelation of only three. New Earth, New Jerusalem, and Zion. Since he could not figure it out, he called one of the prophetess in Sri Lanka, and asked her to pray and find out what the seven paradises were. His personal revelatios were nothing but a figment of his immaginations, and perverted mind.
I was massaing him at that time. Alwin like to be massaged all the time when he was in bed, and even when he was driving long distances.
My Brother used to be one of Alwins Chauffers. He spent a lot of time in the sisters training center in Mattaluliya SL. He brought a whole bunch of sisters and brothers from Kerala and Tamil Nadu to all the daily chores. Cpm in Sl could not at that time function with out the indian workers. Some of these indian workers were like servants to the Singhalese workers. Alwin probably was like a rooster among trhe chicken!!!! He was a crook all the time. He had poweruful men who covered up for him like Thambirajaha,AC Thomas, C John. They could have been sincere men. I will give them the benifit of the doubt.
If I as a teenager knew for Certain That Alwin was a crook, how come these so called men of God did not. These guys were experts in brainwashing, power hungry men who lived the ‘good life. Unlimited power, money, and authority.
Why would you rock the boat when everthing is going good?
All the Pastors have a great life even in the west. Did you guys know that 95% of the CPM people are from the third world?
Finally, my friends and relations who read this, try to understand me, and dont blackmail, and talk and spread rumours. Face the facts.
DONT BE LIKE THE MAN WHO SAID ” DONT DISTURB ME WITH FACTS BECAUSE, I HAVE MADE UP MY MIND.”
Get in touch with me samalan720@hotmail.com
The truth shall make you free!!!!!!
Sam.
To all the brainwashed TPMites world wide.
So you think that God’s blessings, and stamp of approval is
upon you because you have spread Alwinism all over the world.
The Mormans grow faster than you guys. Sai Baba has a bigger and better Convention center, than your Flagship in Irumbulya. More people gather there from all over the world.Is this a sign that this is of God?
The Jehovahs wittnessses and the Seventhday adventists, and many cults are all over the world.
Ask your Pastor if he ate like the most junior worker. Your pastors are dieing of over eating. Check it out.
Get out of the CULT. Freedom is there for those who want.
A former brainwashed member of TPM.
Sam
Hi there !!.. I read all d comments u all ve posted !!…
M not here to judge d atheists fr GOD alone has RIGHT to do it ….
There may b shortcomings in the TPM pastors …n sum of the doctrines. But u cant criticize d whole lot coz of it … here r sum of the points or rather questions dat I wanna ask
Do any of the churches or do u all know that the lord is going to come to earth three times???? …. Dats TPM
Do u all know dat the prophecy of sounding of seven trumpet n pouring of seven vials in seven years will happen simultaneously ???….. Dats TPM
Do u know dat the whole world will not see the lord at rapture …but will see HIM only the 2nd tym after first 3 ½ years tribulation when he TAKES THE MATYRS …. Dats when d jews .. his own people will believe n repent and they will b saved after 3 ½ yr?? … Dats TPM …
Do u know the mystery of the women who stands on the moon having 12stars on head is the mother of two sons ??.. elder one is the martyr church n younger the man-child who will be caught up at rapture?? … does any church preach this??..Dats TPM
Do u know dat anyone who believes in the our Christ n acknowledges him dat he is the son of most high is bound to go to paradise ?? ….. doe any CNI or CSI preach this ???… that’s TPM
Has ANY one of you n specially the ‘ATHEISTS’ ATTENDED any of the YOUTH CONVENTIONS organized ??? …. Has any one of you seen the CHILDREN n so called ATHEISTS jumping n dancing in the fire of the lord ?????
N this Is specially to the science lovers and Darwin’s disciples …..can you EVER explain how the fire [holy spirit] … can shake a believer so violently and make him speak FIERY TONGUES??????
For those who don’t believe dat there’s a soul ……. Can you answer dat if I die this very moment were will I go ????.. whether I will be sleeping in the mud or sitting in the mud watching movies in the mud ??? After bacteria degrades me then wot ??. .. wot will happen to the I dat is asking me ?? wot will happen to this I ????… dear ATHEISTS …. This very “ I” is Your SOUL ….. its your soul dat actually thinks n seess …
N about your comment on WHITE DRESSES !!!…… have u ever tried going to sum church in “PARTY WEAR” .. or any of the COLOURFUL CASUALS …. N pray to the lord with a BROKEN HEART ?????….. does not your mind keeps saying .. u r very good looking… does not ur heart rejoice over ur appearance…. The very purpose dat our saints recommend whites is just to make you have a broken heart !! have u not read in old testament dat GOD REMOVED curse frm Ahab since he put on a SACKCLOTH on Elijah’s rebuke???????? Its this SACKCLOTH DAT TPM RECCOMMENDS ….for our GOD Is a JEALOUS GOD…… he alone shud be d first n second n the third place in your life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!……….. this is wot TPM teaches …… rather than pin pointing its weaknesses …see sum of the great saint god has given ..
Pas.T U Thomas..once said ..Dont see the TINY devil but see the GREAT GOD !!!..
IT was this … saint who had a DREAM n changed my entire life :
‘ In my dream he saw dat people were crucifying Jesus n a particular man full of hatred for the Christ was driving the nails so fiercely into our lords hand …as he was striking wid so much hatred … Christ said, “ child , I love you ”.. hearing this the young man striked Jesus even more vigorously … but Jesus was crying n said , “ child, I STILL love you ” seeing this .. Pastor’s heart was so much angry with dat young man dat he too started crying …. He wanted to kill dat young man to have inflicted so much grief on the lord!! AS he came forward to take hold of that man …Much to his own SHOCK …. He discovered dat dat man was HE HIMSELF !!!!!!!’……. Dats TPM …. HUMILITY !!!
CONVICTION !!!1 .. BROKENESSS!!!!! …. Jugde urselves .. I cud not find true peace in any of the churches….. in any CNI any CSI .. any CHURCH OF GOD .. any JESUS CALLS …. Any FOREIGN churches !!!…………
There no church dat preaches deep doctrines .. hard mysteries !!!!!! god bless all!!!!
Dear All,
I am JACOB again. I was on a tour for nearly a month and so could not respond. When I came back, I see lot of posts which are on my name!!!! This is strange!!!! I read the whole passage which took 3 full hours to find that my name has been used to spread venomous doctrines.
This is perhaps, I posted my email address to Jim, so that he can contact me but someone has used it. Though I have not written anything of that sort, I accept 25% of the things expressed by the so-called-JACOB, whosoever he may be. But 75% is not acceptable to me. I could not understand whether he was defending TPM Doctrines or opposing TPM Doctrines.
So, please identify this logo which appears on the right side. Henceforth my all posts shall have this logo. THIS CAN AVOID ALL CONFUSIONS.
By the way, Dear Mr Ray, I read your post in which you were asking about TPM Phone Numbers so that you can call them and inform. Inform about what??? I STRICTLY OBJECT TO THIS, SINCE YOU ARE NOT A TPM MEMBER. I WOULD RATHER USE THE SO-CALLED-JACOB’S STATEMENT THAT YOU WERE ONCE IN TPM AND NOW YOU ARE NOT. I dont want to know how you are out of TPM and what is your current state!!! I am happy to know that at least you are happy after going out of TPM. May God bless you in your current state.
God Bless Us All
JACOB
Jacob states:
**By the way, Dear Mr Ray, I read your post in which you were asking about TPM Phone Numbers so that you can call them and inform. Inform about what??? I STRICTLY OBJECT TO THIS, SINCE YOU ARE NOT A TPM MEMBER. I WOULD RATHER USE THE SO-CALLED-JACOB’S STATEMENT THAT YOU WERE ONCE IN TPM AND NOW YOU ARE NOT. I dont want to know how you are out of TPM and what is your current state!!! I am happy to know that at least you are happy after going out of TPM. May God bless you in your current state.**
Sure, I want to notify them of some of the things you’ve stated here about marriage. It seems that you need to be corrected and I’m confident that they will set you straight regarding the nonsense you’ve posted here. I’m sure they will be very surprised at your very “unChristian” views regarding marriage and how your bitterness with your wife has led you to such an unbiblical state. Please, post the phone number so that you can see how wrong you are. I would be more than willing to call. You are definitely off the mark.
Peace,
Ray
Dear Mr Ray,
I dont know, who you are?? I have never been in any confrontation with you.. I already said that, by mistake I disclosed my email address and someone has used it to post messages by my name. I was not on this website for last 1.5 months!!! I was on a business tour. When I came back, I saw all these rubbish exchanges.
If you give me your email id, I can also become you and then post messages on your name!!!!
IS THIS CLEAR TO YOU???
YOUR HATRED TO THAT JACOB (whoever he may be) IS SO THICK AND DENSE THAT YOU DIDNT READ THE WHOLE POST. PLEASE HAVE PATIENCE AND UNDERSTANDING.
Dont come to any conclusion without proper understanding.
By the way, (I repeat), you have no right to teach any TPM Member or TPM Church about its doctrines or about their members!!! Please keep this in your mind…
If you are happy where you are, congrats to you. But this does not mean or proove that you are in a good place!!!!
JACOB
Dear Ray,
This Jacob is not that Jacob.
I think you need to read his post again.
Susan
Hey Ray
I can clearly see your HATRED.
You cannot be a real christian….
Bible doesn’t teach about hatred….
Johnson.
I really doubt if this is the Twilight Zone, but regardless of “which Jacob is the right Jacob” the point is that there is a “Jacob” who carries very unorthodox, unbiblical views against marriage. That is the “Jacob” who should be reported to his TPM elders because his views are completely misconstrued and unbiblical. He needs to be corrected by his church. I find it to be the height of hilarity that some folks interpret my motives as “hatred” when, in reality, I am only doing what Scripture commands me to do. Revealing false doctrine. It’s time for those who claim to be Christians here to stop acting like children, read the Scriptures and obey them. Do not bear false witness by claiming “hatred” when you don’t know my motives. Grow up, Jacob, whichever Jacob you may be.
Ray
Johnson, you don’t know my motives and I don’t know how you can “see clearly” when there is nothing to see. Rather, you are being judgmental based on your own biases. Any thinking Christian with a good grasp of Scripture can see that I’m practicing Matthew 18:15-17. If you can’t see that then I suggest you study your Bible and stop allowing your emotions to guide your sensibility.
Ray
Dear Hazel Caroline,
I read your blog with great intrest. I too once thought that CPM had the greatest of Doctrines. Most of them have been taught and believed in many cults for centuries.
All these doctrines were the personal revelations of the Co. Founder of CPM Pastor Alwin, who was kicked out of CPM, for gross immorality.Count youself fortunate, that you joined CPM after his time. You could have been his prey, like many innocent sisters were.
Tu Thomas was a sincere brainwashed man like the rest in CPM. No wonder the Lord took him. He preached Alwinism, and not the pure word of God. He forbade a young man wearing a dark suit for his wedding in India, but he always wore dark suits in the West. Mother Theresa wore a saree which cost less than a $ all over the world in the presence of the leaders of the world, and heads of state. Yet she will not be in Zion according to CPM. (only men) Only those who were not defiled by women. The CPM teaching on Zion, is nothing but Satanic Revelation, because it teaches what is holy and undefiled, a defilement.
Why do you have to shake violently, to come out with fiery tounges? Any scripture to support it?
Will continue later.
Sam
Pastor Alwin’s doctrine of “Edenic Perfection” was that once a person has been saved, he is restored back to the way things were in the Garden of Eden. In Eden, Adam and Eve did not wear clothes; thus, Alwin’s “revelation” was that if TPM workers were truly holy, they would not need to wear clothes either. They would not be ashamed of their nakedness and would not have any sexual desires because of seeing the nakedness of the opposite gender. More specifically, male TPM workers would not have an erection because of seeing naked female workers.
It has been reported that Pastor Alwin used to practice this Edenic Perfection doctrine by staying in his room in the faith home naked. He conducted “holiness test” on CPM workers by having young men and women get naked in front of each other. If the male workers had the “physical reaction” as a result of seeing naked female workers, Pastor Alwin concluded that they failed the “holiness test”. He used to sexually molest female workers in Sri Lanka and other places under the auspices that he was testing their holiness. When pastor Alwin’s younger sister was alive, she used to keep close tabs on him to protect the female CPM workers shipped to Sri Lanka from Kerala and Tamil Nadu because she knew her brother was a sexual predator.
Many CPM pastors in the 1960’s used to confess that Heb 10:26-29 applied to Pastor Alwin. Since all TPM doctrines originated from the ungodly imaginations of Pastor Alwin, every sincere TPM member is forced to concede that TPM doctrines at best are suspect, and at worst are from the pit of hell as Chief Pastor Freddy Paul openly admitted.
DO ANY OF YOU HAVE ANY PROOF OF ALL THESE THINGS???
YOU SAY AND REPEAT AGAIN AND AGAIN DO NOT MEAN THAT IT IS TRUTH.
CHECK THE INTERNET AND YOU WILL FIND LOT OF WEBSITES SAYING “JESUS WAS MARRIED WITH MARY (LAZARUS’S SISTER) AND HAD CHILDRENS”
SOME WEBSITES SAY, HE HAD MANY WIVES AND CHILDREN.
DOES IT MEAN, THIS IS CORRECT??? DO YOU BELIEVE THIS???
IF YOU WANT LINK TO THESE WEBSITES, PLEASE LET ME KNOW.
JACOB
SAM SAID THAT Pas T U THOMAS FORBADE A YOUNG MAN FOR WEARING A DARK SUIT IN HIS WEDDING, WHEN HE HIMSELF WEARS DARK SUIT IN WESTERN COUNTRIES.
DEAR SAM, YOU YOURSELF REPLIED TO YOUR ARGUMENT.
EVERY COUNTRY HAS A RULE AND THEY ARE NOT BOUND TO BE SAME.
IN INDIA DRIVING RIGHT HAND ON LEFT SIDE OF ROAD IS OKAY, WHEREAS IN WESTERN COUNTRIES, THIS IS A CRIME.
IF THIS YOUNG MAN HAD WORE A DARK SUIT IN WESTERN COUNTRIES AND IF Pas T U HAD FORBID HIM, THERE WAS A POINT. BUT IN INDIA, TPM HAVE A DIFFERENT RULE. PLEASE UNDERSTAND THIS.
JACOB
It is not fair to compare Pastor Alwyn with our Saviour Jesus. Devil constantly works against our Lord and perpetrates total lies against HIM all the time. That is why we find so much false material and fabricated stories about our Lord in this world and unfortunately many believe them.
But in the case of Pastor Alwyn, one thing is absolutely sure, that he was ex-communicated from TPM. I have heard this from many senior TPM Pastors (a majority of whom are not alive today). Pastor Alwyn is the only Chief Pastor in the history of TPM to be thrown out of the church. Considering he was the co-founder of TPM, he should have committed a very grave sin to deserve this. Demanding proof for Pastor Alwyn’s immorality only goes to show how much a person is biased. Please ask any senior pastor in TPM today and you will get the truth.
In the early seventies I used to attend Sister Sarah Navoroji’s church. I was a very young boy at that time accompanying my parents to her meetings in Kellys, Madras. She ministered in TPM Srilanka before coming out of TPM to start this church. I very clearly remember Sister Sarah Navaroji mentioning to my mother one day that she had to come out of TPM because of the unsafe situation prevailing in the faith homes in those days for sisters due to the atrocities of Pastor Alwyn. I have also heard from many TPM Pastors about Pastor Alwyn’s doctrine and practice of Edonism as mentioned by Sam Allan. I fully believe Sam Alan’s statements about Pastor Alwyn to be true. If they are not true, what is the reason for his ex-communication from TPM?
It is true that every country has its rules and similarly every church has its rules. Any church should have just one set of rules for all its members throughout the world. But only TPM practices two sets of rules, one for the east and the other for the west. Many find this hard to accept. White is the dress code for the east (even for marriage), whereas, no one wears white in the west (including pastors) and every one comes dressed in dark suit and tie for the Sunday worship. While the governments in the west enforce driving on the right side of the road, no government enforces dark suit for any occasion for any of its citizens. Thus, the reason pastors should wear only suits and ties in the west, does not bode well to a church that enforces strict dress code for its members in the east.
Pastors/Evangelists from other church denominations visiting the west wear the same type of dress both in India and the west (mostly pants and shirt and not dark suits like TPM Pastors). TPM stresses simplicity in dressing and that is the reason for white dress in the east. If this is true, its members and pastors in the west should wear simple dresses (pants and shirts), and no one even in the west will accept dark suits and ties personify simplicity. Pastors and members in the AG church and many other churches in the west don’t come dressed in a suit for the Sunday worship. Perhaps, TPM should learn from them.
There are other inconsistencies too. TPM allows married people in the west to wear wedding rings (this is not done during the marriage ceremony but allowed afterwards), whereas, the same TPM does not allow this (wedding ring or mangal sutra) to its married members in the east! About 99% of the TPM members in the west are from third world countries like India and Sri Lanka (mostly Tamils and Malayalis). If the very same people can live without wedding rings or go to church in simple attire in their home country, what is the need for such drastic change when they move to a different country? TPM in the west accepts married people for the ministry, whereas, this is a strict no…no… in the east! Because of these and other inconsistencies, TPM in the west is not able to attract the local white population. Only less than 2% of the church population is white and in many churches only the pastor and the workers are white and the members are Indians or Sri Lankans. TPM’s growth in the west is mostly due to immigration and not by winning the local white population. Indeed a very sad state.
Let the Name of Jesus be Glorified.
Wow Abas !, Two thumbs up !
I don’t’ want to haste to say “You are right !” as there may be reasonable answers for “rules being differently practiced”. I can’t judge what you said is right or wrong for it’s God’s work! But at this point I strongly believe that what you said is rightly said. I have been puzzled by the SAME EXACT inconsistencies you are talking about!
I remember a ZEN story …
It’s been a good Buddhist story for generations. In olden days man was close to nature and it was easy to dissolve into silence.
One day two Buddhist monks were returning back from town to their monastery which was in a jungle. They were silent as they were walking, watching each step and witnessing everything.
Walking slowly, meditatively they came to cross a river; usually there is a boat man to help anybody cross the river, but they found nobody.
But one beautiful young woman was waiting for the boat man to help her cross the river. The Sun was about to set and darkness was spreading its kingdom.
They waited for a while for the boat man and eventually decided to cross the river on their own. The young woman could not cross, the Younger monk helped her by carrying her on his shoulder and three of them crossed the river. On the other side of the river they younger monk dropped the woman, she thanked the monks and went on her way and two monks started walking towards their monastery meditatively.
Meditation is the very breath of their actions. They walked a long way and were about to reach the monastery in a few seconds, the Old monk broke the silence “I will tell everything to master”
The Young Monk asked surprisingly “what will you tell to master” (he totally forgot the fact that he touched and carried a woman)
Old Monk said ” you are spoiled , you have carried the woman on your shoulders, it’s sin to touch a woman for a monk”
Young Monk paused for an instance and replied “I had dropped her at the river bank.”
But I think you still carry her! “(In your mind)
As long as you carry the TPM-black-suit or the TPM-wedding-ring, you are talking about, on the shoulder, I think it is ok. If it is in your mind, you sure are a spoiled monk, and I strongly believe almost all the western-tpm ministers drop their black-suit on the river. I know when they go to India for convention, they dress just like the Indian pastors, and I haven’t heard any pastor being adamant to wear the same black-suit they used to wear in their country. I think, it’s just like trying to be Roman when in Rome.
You are right, for about 98% the immigrant Malayalis, Tamils and Srilankans make the western-TPM church. They wear black-suit not to decorate themselves but to be friendly-looking when natives walk into the church, a woman in an Indian costume (Saree) might give them a repulsive or unfriendly feeling… I don’t know; wearing black-suit is just to avoid that, at least that’s what I know. If you think it’s not a reasonable reason please let me know why, I would love to ask these questions when we have seminars in our church.
and as you said
Let the Name of Jesus be Glorified.
And for Sam Alan:
I am sorry for the trouble you had to go through as an young TPM minister. Thank you for the information about Pastor Alwyn. I believe you.
A TPM Member.
DEAR ABAS, ANYTHING TO DEFEND NOW!!!! WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO PROOVE HERE????
DEAR BIJU, NICE POSTS!!! KEEP IT UP!!!
TO ALL BLOG READERS INCLUDING SAM ALAN
I TOO PERSONALLY KNOW THAT ALWIN WAS EXCOMMUNICATED FROM TPM IN ADULTERY. I ALSO KNOW THAT THERE WERE MANY BROTHERS AND SISTERS WHO HAD SUFFERED THIS HUMILIATION OF “HOLINESS TEST” FROM ALWIN……SO.. WHAT….???…
DID ALWIN CALLED YOU??? ARE YOU RUNNING YOUR RACE LOOKING TO TPM MINISTERS???? IF THE ANSWER IS YES, THERE IS A POINT IN THIS DEBATE.
I DONT THINK ANYONE WOULD DARE TO SAY THAT HE OR SHE WAS NOT CALLED BY JESUS…..BUT BY TPM MINISTERS OR ALWIN, OR EVEN Pas T U THOMAS, OR TAKE CURRENT Pas WILSON…
WHY DO YOU LOOK THIS INCIDENT FROM ALWIN’S PROSPECTIVE? WHY CAN’T YOU LOOK FROM THOSE INNOCENT BROTHERS AND SISTERS WHO SUFFERED THIS HUMILIATION, CONSIDERING IT AS A GLORY IN ETERNAL LIFE. I BELIEVE SOME OF THOSE WOULD STILL BE IN TPM, DOING THEIR GLORIOUS MINISTRY…AT THE SAME TIME, I FEEL SORRY FOR SAM….
HATS OFF TO ALL THOSE PEOPLE WHO SILENTLY SUFFERED EVERYTHING, SOMETHING SIMILAR TO OUR LORD JESUS.
SINCE IT WAS A WRONG THING, THE INVENTOR OF IT WAS ROOTED OUT COMPLETELY WITH ALL HIS FOLLOWERS, CALL IT KICKED OUT OF TPM, LEAVING NOTHING OF SUCH KIND.
EVEN NOW THERE ARE A FEW INCIDENTS OF ADULTERY. BUT NOT ALL OF THEM ARE INVOLVED. ITS NOT FAIR TO COUNT EVERYONE AND WEIGH EVERYONE IN SAME CATEGORY.
I KNOW A CENTRE MOTHER BECOMING PREGNANT, DELIVERED THE CHILD IN TOILET AND THEN THE BIGGEST SIN, KILLED AND DUMPED IT IN THE SAME TOILET!!!..AGAIN I ASK….SO…WHAT….?
YOU ARE BEING CALLED WITH A HIGH CALLING FROM YOUR LORD, WHICH WOULD BE DIFFERENT FROM OTHERS. EVERYONE DO NOT HAVE THE SAME CALLING. HEARKEN HIS CALLING TOWARDS YOU AND CONSIDER YOURSELVES. AND THEN YOU WILL FIND ALL THESE NONSENSE INCIDENTS WHETHER IN TPM OR ANYWHERE ELSE, CHEAP AGAINST YOUR HIGH CALLING
JACOB
BY THE WAY, I GOT CHANCE 3 TIMES TO VISIT CENTRE FAITHHOME IN LONDON ON SUNDAY SERVICES.
I WAS ASKED TO COME IN BLACK COAT, BLACK TROUSER, WHITE SHIRT WITH ANY COLOR TIE AND WITH SHOES ON,,,,,,
EVERYTHING WAS FINE TO ME AT THAT TIME EXECPT SHOES ON….BECOZ, I HAD NEVER BEEN INSIDE THE FAITHHOME WITH SHOES OR SANDLES…
BUT STILL, IT WAS THE NEED OF THE HOUR AND I DID SO…WITHOUT ANY MURMERING OR ARGUMENT WITH ANYONE THERE!!!!!.
JACOB
The Mist
While going across these posts from top to bottom. I’ve clearly understood something which speaks out rather screams out. There are some people who have had a very tough time going to tpm church and many more who have been blessed to many fold.
Those who have had a tough time with these tough doctrines, never wanted to be the way Almighty wants us to be in “His perfect will”, opting out from them by creating and following their own perceptions and twisting the doctrines as they see thmeselves to be and as they want to live thier life.
There are many useful things people can engage in other than these futile discussions here. All of you go home and pray for our dear moderator who has not only twisted the doctrines but also advocats the fact that God doesnt exist. Which clearly speaks of her character which demands self-will without having anybody to be given accountability for any of her moral act and thoughts.
Dear Christian friends, I appeal to all of you to boycott this evil-blog and carry on with your normal life.
Mist.
While going across these posts from top to bottom. I’ve clearly understood something which speaks out rather screams out. There are some people who have had a very tough time going to tpm church and many more who have been blessed to many fold.
Those who have had a tough time with these tough doctrines, never wanted to be the way Almighty wants us to be in “His perfect will”, opting out from them by creating and following their own perceptions and twisting the doctrines as they see thmeselves to be and as they want to live thier life.
There are many useful things people can engage in other than these futile discussions here. All of you go home and pray for our dear moderator who has not only twisted the doctrines but also advocats the fact that God doesnt exist. Which clearly speaks of her character which demands self-will without having anybody to be given accountability for any of her moral act and thoughts.
Dear Christian friends, I appeal to all of you to boycott this evil-blog and carry on with your normal life.
Mist.
Biju, I am not against TPM pastors or members wearing dark suits to Sunday service. In fact, I firmly believe God will not judge anyone by what they wear and I personally prefer to dress in suits, be it to church or work. But, this is one of the questions I get asked often by my other Christian friends whenever I take them to our TPM church.
When I used to live in India, it was very easy for me to answer this question on dress. I usually tell my friends that we wear white dress to church as a sign of simplicity and humility. Expensive and colourful clothing will divert the attention of others to the person wearing such dresses rather than to focus on God and HIS presence.
But here in Canada, when my white friends pose the question “Why do TPM members get dressed in dark suits to church service?” I have no convincing answer to provide. If I answer “we do not want to give our native friends a REPULSIVE and UNFRIENDLY feeling when they visit our church”, they laugh at me saying “we do not wear suits in our everyday life or to church and so we will not be offended in seeing your members (men) in pants and shirts”. It is true, in the Americas suits are not the regular wear for ordinary people. They are not considered simple clothing and are only worn for special occasions like weddings, parties, and so on. Have we deviated from our Eastern TPM principle and value of putting on simple clothing? Do we have a dual set of rules, simple white dress for the East and expensive dark suits for the West?
The argument “we are trying to be Romans in Rome” will not cut ice here as suits are not the regular wear for the Romans of this Rome. I frequently attend the PAOC (Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada) church which belongs to the AG church group, and I don’t see any member (including the pastor) attending Sunday service in suit. They all come dressed as normal people, in pants and shirts. I feel their clothing symbolize simplicity and humility more than us. I again stress the fact that I am not questioning the TPM dress practices (dress is a trivial matter compared to the inner man growing in Holiness); it is just that I am unable to provide a convincing answer to my other white Christian friends on this matter.
The other point is, in more than 50 years of TPM existence in the west, we have not succeeded in winning even 2% of the white population as our church membership. If the purpose of “be a Roman in Rome” is to win a lot of white people to our fold, you will agree we have failed in our mission. I am very concerned about not being able to attract and win a significant number of whites and other races to our fold in spite of claiming to have a higher and glorious doctrine. You will agree that this glorious doctrine is not revealed to just the Malayalis, Tamils and the Sri Lankans, and hidden to all the other races. Our God is an impartial God. We are lacking something somewhere and that’s why we are not able to reach the other races and still continue to be a closed church (Indians & Sri Lankans) everywhere even after so many years.
In fact, 20 years back we had more white people in our churches in the Americas than it is today. Over the years we are steadily losing this population (fine people like Ray the Churchmouse and ministers like David Barlock) and very soon we will be a 100% Eastern Church in the Western world with only the western dress culture to boast of. This is something even our late Pastor Don was very concerned about till the end. Whenever I attend the PAOC church, I see people from more than 50 nationalities worshipping our Lord in oneness of spirit, what a great sight and what a great feeling! No dark suits, no stiff necked people, but people in ordinary clothing freely worshipping the Lord with a great filling of the Holy Spirit.
I have raised the question of dual rules within the church between the East and the West regarding dress, wedding ring, married ministers, and other issues with many pastors. No one could give me a satisfactory answer with scriptural references. Almost everyone said that these rules were instituted by the saints and we have to follow them without questioning. I cannot give this answer to my white Christian friends. I especially cannot answer questions like “why TPM people in the West are allowed to wear wedding ring when the same is prohibited in the East?” or, “why married people are not taken for the ministry in the East when this is allowed in the West?”
Notwithstanding any of the above, I liked your post with the short story. I could also see the sincerity from the tone of your message and I appreciate that. We owe an answer to our other Christian friends on matters of controversies in order to win them to this glorious gospel. If you get sound answers to these questions with scriptural references from any of your pastors/ministers, please post them here. It will be of great help to me.
Have you read the book “To TPM with love” by Bro. David Paul? Bro. David Paul was the founder editor of TPM’s magazine “Voice of Pentecost”. I have heard many good things about him as a small boy growing up in TPM. He was very close to the TPM leadership and has a very sound knowledge of the TPM doctrines. The book is an interesting read and has several challenging questions/answers relating to many of TPM’s unique doctrines. You can get this book free by emailing Bro. David Paul at fgsfii@yahoo.com.
Cheers!
I am a TPM member who is convinced from the Bible that the Alwinism that is taught in our church today is “another Gospel”(Gal 1:7)—a performance based righteousness. TPM was able to force Pastor Alwin out of the church; however, we were not able to force Alwinism out of TPM. Chief Pastor Freddy Paul, son of Pastor Paul, tried to reform the church, (starting with retracting the unscriptural stipulation of forbidding pastors/sisters to marry,) but most of the brainwashed senior TPM pastors withstood him.
I am glad to hear rational and scriptural comments from current TPM members such as Abas and Biju. Most of the information provided by Sam Allen has been kept private for almost 50 years. Today, 99% of the pastors are not aware of the details surrounding Pasto Alwin’s excommunication simply because those pastors who were alive in the 50’s are no longer alive.
The unfortunate fact was that Pastor TU Thomas was a new comer to TPM—he was not from a traditional TPM family. Thus, he did not have first hand knowledge of the perversions that went on in CPM during Pastor Alwin’s reign. Hence, when he became the Chief and found the old books written by Pastor Alwin in the archives, he started reintroducing Alwinism to innocent young people who did not even have a basic understanding of the scriptures.
Let me explain where the so-called “tough doctrines” and “deeper revelations” of TPM originated. When the peons like former Pastor Sam Allan and others were starving, Pastor Alwin was purchasing expensive doctrinal books from United Kingdom and United States. He was simply taking what had already been written by various European theologians (e.g. Catholics and Jehovah’s witnesses among others) and incorporating his ungodly imaginations to create TPM’s so called “hard doctrines”. Pastor Alwin had forbidden CPM pastors and believers to read any non CPM books or to attend any non CPM meetings because he was systematically turning CPM into his personal cult. Pastor Alwin was an expert in Jehovah’s witness’s doctrine because he wrote a book arguing that they are a cult. Jehovah’s witness claim that the 144,000 are Jehovah’s witness elders. What Pastor Alwin did was to take their claim and argue that the 144,000 are TPM celibate workers. In other words, he took the doctrines of one cult (All Christians consider Jehovah’s witness to be a cult) and created another pseudo-cult (TPM) and said CPM doctrines are direct revelation given to him from God and the uneducated CPM people in the 40’s believed it. Of course, he came up with the doctrine that the chief pastor is the oracle of God and he must be obeyed unconditionally. This is a catholic teaching that younger ministers must obey the older ministers without question because the elder pastors’ words are from God. Pastor Alwin established all of CPM’s “hard doctrines and deeper truths” with this general format of taking false doctrines from books he purchased from USA and UK and incorporating his two cents into them. Because he was a bully and most CPMite were uneducated in the 1940’s, he had a field day.
Dear Johnny,
I agree with you a hundred %. Yes Alwin had a library. He had volumes of books from Dallas Theological Seminary. None of the other Pastors had no access to this library.
Some body blogged mentioning about a mother getting pregnant in one of the Faith Homes. She apparently delivered the baby in the tiolet, killed the baby, and flushed it down the toilet. I just cant believe this!! Is this true, or here say?
When things like this happen, it is kept away from the seniors Pastor in the west, like Michael Thomas Etc. When a senior Pastor in Tuticorn, was behaving like a rooster in the chicken coop, and had, lakhs of rupees, which he used as hush money, Michael Thomas did not know this until I
sent him an E mail. He immediatly called Wesley, for verification. If This is true Michcael Thomas should be informed about this. So please let me know if this is absolutley true.
Lets fight for the Faith once delievered to the saints.
Are these the people who say we preach’That we may present every man perfect in Christ?’ This is nothing but Hog wash!!
Sam.
ACTUALLY, I AND RACHEL STARTED THIS FOR KIDDING.
NOW IT HAS TURNED SERIOUS WHICH WE NEVER EXPECTED!!!
NEEDS SOME CORRECTION HERE!!!! SHALL SEND LATER
SUSAN
I REGRET FROM ALL THE ABOVE POSTINGS AND HEREBY DECLARE THAT I REPENT FROM ALL THE PAST POSTS.
PLEASE PRAY FOR ME THAT GOD FORGIVE MY SINS.
I WOULD NEVER BE ENGAGED IN SUCH THINGS EVER NOWAFTER.
SUSAN
WOW….
FINALLY ONE OF THEM WHO ACCUSED OUR BRETHERN IS DOWN. I WAIT FOR ALL REMAINING OTHERS.
SUSAN, I WILL PRAY FOR YOU…..REST IS IN GOD’S HAND. HE IS A FORGIVING GOD…
ONE MORE THING…..
THERE ARE FEW BLOGGERS HERE, DECLARING THEMSELVES AS TPM MEMBERS. I AM 100% SURE THAT ALL OF THEM ARE FRAUD TPM MEMBERS.
THEY DECLARE THEMSELVES AS TPM MEMBERS AND THEM BLAME TPM!!! ISN’T IT FUNNY…..THEY ALSO TAKE THE PRIDE TO BLASPHEM THEIR OWN CHURCH (provided they were TPM)
…. ISN’T IT A STUPIDITY……
NO……. ITS NOT…… IT’S A CLEVER PRESENTATION… FIRST THEY PRETEND TO BE TPM MEMBER AND THEN START THEIR BUSINESS…..
BEWARE OF THESE PEOPLES…..
JACOB
Jacob,
Do you have anything of value to say? You act as if anything said about TPM is blasphemy. This goes to show that you really don’t know much about Scripture and, thus, all your comments come off based on the emotionalism we’ve seen thus far. You make these strange assumptions, as if you had the power to determine what is in a person’s heart. If someone states he was a member of TPM or New Testament Church, you excuse it by implying that they are liars or stupid. Well, God knows that I was a member and there are some here who, evidently, seem to have been members themselves. Yet, you continue on with the rambling and incoherent rants that show nothing but a very ignorant man. You have even misrepresented the teachings of TPM at points and my offer still stands–if you cannot receive correction from me than I am more than willing to talk to ANY of your TPM ministers so that they can correct you. I will even show them where you said it. Yet, you seem to be scared of facing them so you use the excuse that, because I’m not a TPM member today, I cannot talk to them. It seems to me that this isn’t a matter of TPM anymore, but the foolish ego of one who can’t be corrected, namely YOU.
Ray
Jacob,
You seem to be blinded by your biases. How else could you say that I am not a TPM member? Don’t you realize you become a liar when you so boldly declare a TPM member as “FRAUD TPM MEMBER” just because that person raised some genuine questions about certain inconsistencies seen in TPM church? The reward for a liar is eternal hell, you should exercise more caution in the choice of your words.
Instead of choosing to engage in a healthy debate and provide answers to my genuine questions and thereby clear the misunderstandings of many about TPM, you have chosen to cleverly side track the issues at hand by calling all those TPM members as fraudsters. People can very clearly see through your evil design. I am very ashamed that you are a TPM member and you certainly need correction from your workers.
Even earlier you had written all kinds of nonsense regarding TPM’s position on marriage. If you are a sincere TPM member, you would not have said all that you did which are completely against what TPM preaches and practices. You made many non-TPM Christians believe that TPM is against marriage for its members. At this point I had to step in and clarify TPM’s position on marriage. Tell me, who is a true TPM member, you or me?
Again, when you found yourself cornered on your stupid unscriptural position regarding marriage, you declared that these were not your posts but someone else’s who unfairly used your name “Jacob”. You did not send in your denial immediately on the appearance of these postings, but chose to send it much later. The reason you gave, you were on a business tour for about a month and a half. It is very hard to believe that you did not have access to internet even once during this period. How were you in touch with your office during this period? I frequently travel all over North America and Europe on business trips and I never have any problem accessing the internet from any of the hotels I stay. The tone and language of these posts unmistakably appear to be yours, don’t hide behind another fictious “Jacob”, you appear to be a liar again. You say, you agree to 25% of what this fictious “Jacob” wrote. By this you admit you are still 25% against TPM’s position on marriage.
Stop acting like a self-appointed guardian of TPM. You have hurt the feelings of many genuine TPM members by calling them “fraudsters”. If you cannot engage in a healthy debate, please step aside and let the others have a meaningful interaction. Don’t be a hindrance to truth.
Dear Abas,
Read the post from “THE MIST” on July 11. There are few others also who said to shut all these nonsense and pray for all those who are in such a state, including me and you. Many left silently after few posts, discerning that this is just a futile discussion. They all would be possibly reading or watching all these posts to see the end of this episode. They are niether Blaming like you nor Defending like me. ALL THESE PEOPLE ARE TRUE TPM MEMBERS!!!!!! All those who blame are Satan’s group since blaming is his prime business…
You asked who is a true TPM Member? You or me?
My Answer:- Neither you nor me. If you were a true TPM Member, you too would had been in the above category, either silently watching or just leaving. If I had been a true TPM Member, I too had been in that category. Not simply answering to your questions…(I would not use the word STUPID QUESTIONS here, like you did)
The common thing between us is that we both know many wrong practises of TPM. As I wrote in my previous last post about a centre mother’s case, I know many such cases. So perhaps, I know more wrong things about TPM than you. But the difference between us is that you highlight them to criticise and blame whereas I highlight them to say that all these things should happen in End Times. All of us are weak, with mistakes etc. We should look our Lord and His calling and not all these rubbish things….
Dear Abas, You are just one step behind of Mr Ray, who went out of TPM. You are having lots and lots of complaints, lot of greivances in your heart. You had seen a lot of wrong practises, which may be true or correct in TPM. As you said in your past post, you are having no answers for your questioning freinds and here on this website you are trying to find answers….And all these things had filled your heart with grief and sorrow. All your posts screams out your inner pain….. You are trying to get some consolation from a similar heart broken TPM Member and a ex-TPM Member regarding all such inconsistancies of TPM. Your posts clearly show your inclination towards them.
I can surely say that if you move forward like this one day you will be like Mr Ray, Mr Sam, etc more happier and perhaps you will find answers for your freinds…..by going out of TPM. You might now give excuse of correcting all these wrong doctrines of TPM, as you stated in your past posts. Dont think of what outsiders think of TPM, if you do, sorry to say, you will end up with them…. You will find their things nicer, better and tastier…
Regarding my foreign tour, I visited 8 countries and 19 companies. All of my time was busy in finding train routes, flight details, getting appointments, booking hotels, etc. etc. I have stayed in 12 Hotels during these days… Forget internet, I have not checked my mails also….which I had auto-forwarded to my collegue. I had never reached to my room before 10-11 night, completely tired. Anyway, I dont find any need or reason to justify on this….
But if you have some brain, think on this. I had read those posts again and again and that’s why I can say this.. Don’t you feel that those posts should had been written by someone who is unmarried??? Just see the grammer and the tone used….
Secondly, you said, I had played this double JACOB game, just because I felt being cornered… TELL ME, WHAT COULD YOU HAVE DONE TO ME AFTER CORNERING??? WILL YOU KILL ME??? OR DO YOU THINK YOU CAN COMPLAIN ABOUT ME TO TPM..OUR CHURCH OR OUR CENTRE OR EVEN TO CHEIF PASTER, AND GET ME PUNISHED??? You cannot do any of these….. Then why should I be afraid….????? Cant you see my Guts from this post…..
Dear Abas, I love you as I love anyone else in this world, as a human. I have no grievances against you. I wrote this post directly to you, since I felt you are being too much personal and have much pain in your heart regarding the inconsistancies seen in TPM.. Just leave it as it is….Dont try to correct it…The more you try to correct it, you will become incorrect….
You also wrote about my marriage issue in the some past post. I would like to clarify some more things here that, not only the TPM Workers including sisters and that Centre Pastor played folly, my wife also told 80% lie about her and her family, which I knew after my marriage. I was completely shaken on this incident. Eventhough, I treat her as my wife in a better way. She even do not know that I am shaken..But she definetly have a guilt feeling on that which I see in some of our conversations. But I have no greivance against her, nor those TPM workers who all were the part of this folly. Read my same post again….What I wrote was, it was my mistake that this happened to me. I hope you understand now.
JACOB
Dear Abas, you said
I frequently attend the PAOC (Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada) church which belongs to the AG church group, and I don’t see any member (including the pastor) attending Sunday service in suit. They all come dressed as normal people, in pants and shirts.
I feel their clothing symbolize simplicity and humility more than us.
It is just that I am unable to provide a convincing answer to my other white Christian friends on this matter.
————-
See what you write here!!!! As I said in the above post, you have already felt AG Group better in simplicity and humility. And you also attend their sundary services frequently!!!!
You are already half AG and half TPM!!!!!
I am 30 year old. Till now, I have never even entered any of the gates of IPC, AG, Church of God, etc, etc churches. Nor even walked from that streets…..Forget entering inside….
And you still ask me, who is a true TPM Member? You or me????? Any blind can answer this????
JACOB
Dear Friends
The following message is very true of TPM.
1. TPM DOES NOT GIVE COMMUNION TO THOSE WHO TAKE MEDICINES OR THOSE WHO HAVE UNDERGONE SURGERY.
2. THE REASON IS THAT TPM BELIEVES THAT TAKING MEDICINE AND UNDERGOING SURGERY ARE SINS.
3. HOWEVER, TPM GIVES COMMUNION TO THOUSANDS OF DOCTORS, NURSES AND PHARMACISTS WHO PROVIDE MEDICINE TO THE PATIENTS AND WHO CONDUCT SURGERY FOR THE PATIENTS.
4. THIS IS LIKE GIVING COMMUNION TO A PERSON WHO SEVES ALCOHOL IN A BAR.
5. IT IS A WELL KNOWN FACT THAT DRINKING ALCOHOL IS NO GREATER A SIN THAN SERVING ALCOHOL.
THUS TPM CLAIMS THAT CONSUMING MEDICINE IS A SIN AND AT THE SAME TIME GIVES COMMUNION TO DOCTORS WHO PRESCRIBE THOSE MEDICINES.
THOSE TPM DOCTORS, NURSES AND PHARMACISTS ARE NOT COMMANDED TO RENOUNCE THEIR PROFESSION.
YOU KNOW WHY?
BECAUSE TPM IS ACTUALLY AFTER PEOPLE’S MONEY AND PRETENDS TO BE VERY PIOUS AND SIMPLE ACTING LIKE PHARISEES IN WHITE DRESSES!!
Dear Sam,
I went through your blog. It is real good and true and beautifully penned. May God continue to use you for HIS glory.
D. Manickam
Dear All,
Those who need more solid information on the teachings and practices of TPM please read the book'” TO TPM WITH LOVE, by contaction the following:
Dr. David Paul
Post Box 3454
Anna Nagar West
Chennai , T. Nadu.
India
Its sent free and post paidfor all those who ask for it.
Jacob,
I am astonished to see your post!!!!
How could you write such nice??? I can see a real humbleness in your post, allowing oneself not be called as a TPM.
GREAT POSTS!!!!
And sorry for your marriage life. But I am sure, God will bless your marriage life as you have a great understanding.
Susan
JACOB,
WHERE ARE U FROM?? KERALA???
WHERE ARE U CURRENTLY LOCATED??
SUSAN
Jacob,
You are sick as Abas has said. It is strange that you are a TPM!!!
Ray
Just to clarify that the post by “ABAS” dated July 17 is not mine. Apparently there is another “ABAS” and the two of us could be identified with the logos appearing on our posts.
I agree with Rachel that the focus should be on TPM and its doctrines and not on individuals. It is very easy to stray away from the central issue and get entangled into peripheral ones.
Whatever was the reason for Rachel’s starting this thread, my desire is that TRUTH should prevail and innocent people should not be misled by strange doctrines that have no scriptural basis.
As Sam Alan said in his post “Lets fight for the Faith once delievered to the saints”.
This is a test message
This is a test message
Dear Jacob,
Is it true that a TPM mother got pregnant, delivered the baby and then flushed the baby down the toilet? This is what you mentioned in your blogg.
Sam.
This is Rachel Chitra, I am the owner of the blog. Recently someone has started posting using my name. I had to delete those comments. Even though they were silly, harmless comments they were certainly not my views and I could not permit them. I believe in freedom of expression, but underhand-stuff like this is very irritating. I might have to activate comment moderation, if people continue playing such silly pranks.
I also noticed that all of Jacob’s posting come from one IP address, so he cannot claim that someother “Jacob” posted in his stead.
Sam Alan,
I have to sit-down and reply to your long mails. Your letters were very warm. I was on a long break – i.e. working out of internet range so I couldn’t reply to ur mails.
Thanks so much for the concern and the interest.
Jacob,
I am sincerely sorry to hear that the TPM workers DELIBERATELY gave some false information about your wife before your marriage. They just gave good report about a bad girl and got her married to you.
No wonder you write belittling the glorious married life. I call it glorius because when two believers get married it is our Lord Himself who joins them together. ( Mt.19: 6) Also, because the Bible calls it ” honorable unto ALL” ( Heb. 13: 4) . It is our HOLY GOD Himself who solemnized the first wedding , BEFORE the fall of Adam and EVE when they both had such an intimate relationship with our Holy God in the garden of Eden. Because it so holy and honorable our Lord CHOSE to first miracle in a wedding day. Christian marriage is so holy and pure because the love between believing husband and wife is compared to that of the Christ and the church.
Your talking low of Christina marriage makes me think of the story attached to the sour grapes.
I do not think that our Lord wants you to have fellowship with such evil people who have virtually destroyed your married life. How could you accept and practice the doctrines of such heartless people ( I mean TPM workers) . How could you ever trust them for your spiritual leadership? ( You want to contact me ? dmanickam8@gmail .com
My dear brother in the Lord pl. pray about this and then BOLDLY decide to step out of such an evil church. You have only ( me too) life to life. Are you going to keep trusting such leaders for your spiritual welfare. In Jesus I pray that our Lord will give you the courage to step out and then expose them to the whole world.
D. Manickam
Jacob,
Here is my response to your blogs dated July 14, 2009.
You said:
“The common thing between us is that we both know many wrong practises of TPM. As I wrote in my previous last post about a centre mother’s case, I know many such cases. So perhaps, I know more wrong things about TPM than you.”
I respond:
I am not here on a bragging contest as to who knows more evil things about TPM. I concede defeat on this. You have repeated this incident (a mother getting pregnant…..) many times. I don’t know what purpose it serves when the discussion here is about TPM doctrines and not about TPM workers. Please stay focused on the issues at hand rather than straying into unrelated things. Either prove scripturally the TPM doctrines and practices are correct or stay away to let the others discuss.
You said:
“But the difference between us is that you highlight them to criticise and blame whereas I highlight them to say that all these things should happen in End Times. All of us are weak, with mistakes etc. We should look our Lord and His calling and not all these rubbish things….”
I respond:
I am not highlighting the TPM practices to criticize or blame as you claim. The difference between the two of us is, I focus on the institution TPM and question the inconsistencies within the church (between east and west), whereas, you focus on individuals (mother getting pregnant, etc….). The real purpose of my questioning is to know the truth, whether the TPM practices are scriptural or manmade. I have touched upon only on the practices of TPM and not on its doctrines yet. I have also questions on the scriptural validity of some of TPM’s doctrines (Celibacy, Divine Healing, Zion, 144,000, etc. etc.). But these are for some other time.
Some will say “it’s not my place to judge.” I would say that not only are you called to judge the fruits and teachings of those that would teach you, but you are also called to warn others about false prophets. Would you let a blind person walk off a cliff without giving a shout of warning?
Bible encourages believers to examine doctrinal matters. All things are to be examined and only the right and good ones are to be entertained. Contrary to this spirit of examination and evaluation, the CULTS control people by indoctrinating them. IF YOU TELL A LIE ENOUGH TIMES, IT CAN START TO SOUND LIKE THE TRUTH. They indoctrinate people to accept the pronouncements of their leaders and hierarchies blindly, without examining, but emotionally. This opens the way for the leaders to manipulate and control people.
As Christians, we are called to test those who bear the title of apostle or prophet (1 John 4:1). We are also called to be like the Berean believers who were commended for searching the scriptures to see if what they were being taught was true (Acts 17:11). Blindly accepting a church’s teachings or blindly submitting to a church’s leadership is not a mark of spiritual maturity. In fact, the Bible says that mature Christians exercise their ability to discern right from wrong (Heb 5:14). God gave us our minds and our reasoning capacities; He has also given us numerous warnings in the Bible about false prophets and apostles. Anyone who tries to make you feel guilty for looking into the truth should be treated as suspect.
False prophets, teachers, and apostles, have been around since the beginning of the New Testament church and will even increase in the last days (2 Peter 2:1-2, 1 Tim 4:1, 2 Timothy 3:12-17). One of the problems with false teachers is that they are deceptive by nature, making them hard to identify. The Bible says they will appear as ministers of righteousness (2 Cor 11:13-15), making them even more difficult to recognize. The apostle Peter said that they will “secretly bring in destructive heresies” (2 Peter 2:1).
The way these false teachers respond to criticism is very revealing. Many of them will claim that if you examine them or scrutinize their teachings, you are in rebellion, unbelief, or sin. Remember though, that if their doctrines are biblically sound and their practices align with Christian ethics, they would have nothing to fear upon examination—the reality is, they would encourage it. False teachers don’t tolerate those who stand on God’s word and challenge their doctrines. They will try to discredit and disparage all those whom they cannot manipulate.
You said:
“Dear Abas, You are just one step behind of Mr Ray, who went out of TPM……..Your posts clearly show your inclination towards them…..I can surely say that if you move forward like this one day you will be like Mr Ray, Mr Sam, etc more happier and perhaps you will find answers for your freinds…..by going out of TPM.”
I respond:
I am not just one step behind……..for your information, I left TPM last week to become a member of PAOC church now. I am not ashamed to be counted amongst people like Ray, Sam Alan and others who examined TPM doctrines in the light of the scriptures and made bold decisions to come out of this false church. My loyalty is not to a church but to God and His Word (Scriptures).
You said:
“Dont think of what outsiders think of TPM, if you do, sorry to say, you will end up with them…. You will find their things nicer, better and tastier…”
I respond:
More than the question of what outsiders think of TPM, I am concerned about my own views about TPM being unscriptural. I find PAOC teachings true and in line with the scriptures and their leaders provide sound Biblical answers to my questions unlike the TPM workers who say “these were revealed to our saints (leaders) and we should follow them without questioning”. So, it is not a question of PAOC teachings being “nicer, better and tastier…”, rather it is about their teachings being true to the Word of God in every sense.
You said:
“Regarding my foreign tour……….But if you have some brain, think on this. I had read those posts again and again and that’s why I can say this.. Don’t you feel that those posts should had been written by someone who is unmarried??? Just see the grammer and the tone used….”
I respond:
You still deny that the other Jacob is not you, but I am convinced that both the Jacobs are the same. To check this, I posted a “test message” with your name and your email address (July 17 at 10:29 pm). I got a different logo than your earlier ones. I again tried this with my daughter Carol’s email (July 17 at 10:43 pm) to check another feature and I realized that the logos generated are a result of computer IP addresses and email addresses. No one can generate the same logo that you used to get earlier just by using your email alone; they will have to use the same computer also to get this. How can the other Jacob have access to your computer? Please explain!
A little later, Rachel’s posting confirmed that both the Jacob’s postings originated from the same IP address. I was 100% sure of this from the beginning just from the similarities in the tone (arrogance) and language (poor English) of all postings with the name “Jacob”. What do you want to achieve by being a liar Jacob? This is certainly not going to help TPM’s cause.
You said:
“I wrote this post directly to you, since I felt you are being too much personal and have much pain in your heart regarding the inconsistancies seen in TPM.. Just leave it as it is….Dont try to correct it…The more you try to correct it, you will become incorrect….”
I respond:
You are wrong…..the more I try to correct it, I don’t become incorrect, rather TPM gets exposed as an incorrect (false) institution.
You said:
“See what you write here!!!! As I said in the above post, you have already felt AG Group better in simplicity and humility. And you also attend their sundary services frequently!!!!
You are already half AG and half TPM!!!!!
I am 30 year old. Till now, I have never even entered any of the gates of IPC, AG, Church of God, etc, etc churches. Nor even walked from that streets…..Forget entering inside….”
I respond:
Even I was like you once, a hardened TPM supporter refusing to see the short comings of TPM in the light of the scriptures – in other words, a blind supporter of TPM at any cost. It was after moving to Canada about 9 years back that I started noticing the inconsistencies within TPM and this made me scrutinize the other unique doctrines of TPM also in the light of the scriptures.
I live in a place that is 200 kms away from the nearest TPM church. Winter road conditions are very harsh and unsafe for long drives in Canada and that is the reason I started attending the local PAOC church whenever it was not possible to drive to the TPM church. This is how I got exposed to the false teachings of TPM initially. I never planned it this way, but I strongly believe God allowed this to happen in my life to know the truth. When I was getting more of my spiritual questions answered at the PAOC church than the TPM church, I increased my attendance to the PAOC church to the point of becoming its member today.
I am 50 years today and I was 14 when I first started attending the TPM church in the Madras center. My experience in TPM is more than your age. You are still young at 30 years and you cannot deem yourself a Bible scholar at your age to blindly approve TPM doctrines to be correct – you still need to substantiate your findings with scriptural support. If I may make a guess, Sam Alan should be in his seventies. TPM members have a lot to learn from him and cannot easily sweep aside his experiences and remain blind folded in their unscriptural beliefs. The loss is not for TPM but for the individuals. So don’t boast of not even walking on the streets of other churches, but instead have thirst and be open to accepting the truth from anywhere/any source if it is supported by the scriptures.
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17).
Hello to all bloggers,
Pastor Alwin was speaking to a group of young people at a youth camp, about Zion, and the qualifications of those who will get there. One young man aksed Pastor Alwin, if a man born a Eunuch will go to zion. This poor guy will not be,
not be able to have sexually perform. If Zion is only for those who were not ‘defiled by women’ this guy should be on top of the list! Pastor Alwin’s reply went some thing like this, ” You should pray and heal him, and then he should overcome all sexual temptations, to get to Zion.” Alwin had a reply for every question.
I was at that time only about thirteen years old,there was no ring of truth in this. There were many senior Pastors at this meting, none questioned Pastor Alwin.
So what do you brainwashed TPM guys, and gals think of this.
Pastor Alwin was devil inspired, like Joseph Smith of the Mormans, Mary Baker Eddy, and the other leaders of cults .
May the Lord deliver you from TPM doctrines. You have some wonderful people in your churches, even many good Pastors and workers. But the sad fact is that they are all brainwashed, by what I call Alwinism. You are not beyond redemption. Your deliverence will be nothing short of a miracle!
Comment moderation has been activated because someone is using my name
To all bloggers
PLEASE READ MY BLOG@ SAMALANS BLOG AT WORD PRESS.
THANKS.
Dear Jacob,
You have to have a name change, just like the old Jacob. You have become Israel.
You have not answered my Question about the TPM mother having a baby and then flushing it down the toilet. Please do not write on serious matters if you are not sure of it. Do not accuse people of serious crimes. You will be answerable to God. Besides it is not becoming of a child of God. TPM should flush down the toilet All of Alwinism and his practices. The senior Pastors should come off their pedestals, and be come a servant, even to the least, and most vulnerable. Hoping to hear from you.
I am an ex TPM who was brainwashed as a kid until I was 27 years old. Thank God for deliverence, freedom, and Joy. I sincerly thought that God was OUT TO GET ME, every time I sinned. The emphasis was on dont do this and dont do that. I never knew what the grace of God is.
My opinion is that all those who oppose TPM doctrines on ground of its Alwinic introduction (and argue that Freddy’s opinions has to be accomodated) must drop the books of Proverbs, Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes etc. from their Bibles written by someone who was a worshipper of the abominable Sidonian goddess and instead include the Book of Nathan, Book of Gad the Seer or at least Paul’s letter to the Laodecians as these are written by great men of God.
If not, you must come to the proper understanding that the revelations of a person doesn’t all become automatically false because he fell and the doctrines of another man doesn’t become automatically true because he didn’t fall.
God bless.
Dear Gsi,
Eenic perfection was also Alwins revelation.
You should practice this too.
Sam.
I wonder if Germans today are leaving Germany for the fact that it was once ruled by an autocratic leader, although most of them are aware of the horrific holocaust incident. I believe Americans still trust their country and march towards their dream, but it doesn’t mean that the Iraq war was a good decision.
I bet, it’s not just recently that the light is shed upon what is “Alwinism” according to this blog. Nobody practices Edenic perfection at TPM now. I am sure and it’s so evident that people have been aware of what is wrong, It’s apparent that some ignorant people in the beginning showed obedience to Alwin and some of the legalistic leaders from the very core of their being, which is biblically not necessary. If this is defined as “being brain washed”, I would like to mention that people evolve and institution change, Please stop scapegoating, and don’t sweep the whole community to the trash-can because few among them breached the trust. Legalism has been identified and for the most part removed from here and I consider this as part of revolution. For the sake of uniformity still there are certain legalized practices, I accept that.
Now, I am more curious to know about a church or community where people behave just like software, actions as per command no mistakes whatsoever.
Like Abas found a new way of worshiping our God, many left TPM for acceptable reasons. None of them were legally or forcefully brought back as far as I know, they were absolutely at their proposal to embrace the freedom. While nobody is forced to stay, I don’t understand the meaning of “CPM captives”.
A TPM member
“Dear Gsi,
Eenic perfection was also Alwins revelation.
You should practice this too.
Sam.”
Then why don’t you imitate Solomon in worshipping the Sidonian goddess while happily reading his Proverbs and Songs. Why can’t you understand the basic logic that a person’s fall won’t automatically invalidate his teachings?
Isn’t it childish to accuse a faith with something that it has never endorsed? Edenic perfection was never accepted by TPM as its doctrine.
(NB: growing old is inevitable; growing up is optional)
God bless.
BIJU PHILIP
Any honest member of TPM will accept that it is the anti scriptural system of unmarried men and women living under the same roof was invented by the late Pastor Alwin. The founder Raman kutty Paul led a good Christian family life even after he started the CPM church. He and his wife lived did not live in two separte homes and two children were born to him after he founded the CPM church. It is pastor Alwin who brought this faith home system and it was his own invention.
We do not read anywhere in the Bible that unmarried men and women lived in same ‘homes’. We do read any evidence of such a kind of unscriptural life led by any Christian group.
No one can refute that the kind of life style ( unmarried men and women living togeter , I am not meaning it in a bad sense ) has no trace at all either in the Bible or in the church history . It was invented by Pastor Alwin . Now, may I ask you , my dear TPM members, why should you support this faith home system that was invernted by Pastor Alwin after the church has excommunicated him?
Why Dont They Leave?
That is your question. My answer is how could they? Where could they go to? When they joined the TPM ministry they were forced to sell there all and give it to the TPM ‘ apostles’. They were made paupers by the church. It usually takes some time for them to realise what kind of trap they have fallen into and the kind of blunder they had made. By then it is too late for them to go.
Biju, Please think with some human sympathy. When you work for a secular company for , lets say for 15 years , and if you want to leave the company those Hindu bosses of that complany will give them a substantial amount and nice send off party.
But here in TPM they have worked for years – not 8 hours a day but 24hours of a day , ‘serving the saints’. But if they want to leave they are asked to leave without any remuneration. When I was in CPM it was poor. Now they are sitting on millions. Why not be generous to these people who leave for their own personal reasons. ( most of them want to go because they want to get a married and start a good Christian family. When the hindu organisations of the world treat those who want to leave so maganimously , you call yourselves Pentecostal should so much more.
“Except your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees and Saducees , YOU WILL NO WISE ENTER the Kingdom of God.
Those who leave they deserve a big booty from you. why not give them atleast a small part of what they deserve. Those ‘saints ‘ have enjoyed THEIR SERVICES FOR YEARS. Pentecost ,what has happened to your BASIC Christian love. You do not even allow the children of the workers more than tenth standard unless they happen to be in the West.
D. Manickam
There is someone who posted in my name. I don’t know who it is, but it seems that the nonsense continues and, even if we don’t find out who it is, God knows and will deal with the deceiver accordingly.
Ray
Jacob,
I don’t know why you continue to compare others to yourself, as if you were the true TPM member and myself, Sam Alan, etc. weren’t, well, you don’t reflect the teachings of TPM. When we attended TPM, we were obedient. When God began to deal with us regarding false teachings within TPM, we submitted to God and left TPM. However, you seem to believe things which aren’t in accordance with TPM and its teachings. Your views on marriage are especially askewed. Yet, you don’t seem to be correctable and continue to misrepresent TPM. Therefore, my offer still stands. If you would give me a number to your faith home, I would be more than willing to speak to your pastor and let him correct you, considering you can’t receive it from me or anyone else on this blog.
Let me know.
Ray
To
ALL THE TPM brothers and sisters,
Greetings to you all in the name of OUR Lord.
If you want to obtain a soft copy of Dr. David Paul’s book
‘TO TPM WITH LOVE’ please go to
http://www.fgsfi.blogspot.com
For those who would like to get a copy of the printed book please contact fgsfii@yahoo.com
Make sure you give your mailing address. It will be sent to you free and post paid.
THIS BOOK IS MUST READ FOR ALL TPM WORKERS AND BELIEVERS.
Daniel Manickam
Dear Abbas,
I am also an ex CPM ite. In one your letters you have mentioned that you used to go 48. Main Road faith home in Rayapuram , Chennai. I too used to go there for years and I would very much like to connect with you. I do love the way you write.
Please contact me:
dmanickam8@gmail.com
Thanks
Daniel Manickam
Biju Philip,
I am sorry that my blog about TPM is not very pleasing personally to you. I too once defended Alwinism, and all that CPM stood for, even as a teenager. I did not know anything better. Alwin instilled in our minds that he preached the ultimate truth. He used to tell us that no one else
taught anything like him, any where in the world!
He was right, because it was from the pit of hell.
You seem to be offended, that I used the terms
‘Brainwashed, and CPM Captives.’ The fact of the matter is that once you are brainwashed, you are a captive for ever, unless for divine intervention and deliverence.
I have dog. His name is Chico. A MIN. Pin.
When he was a puppy, I ‘brainwashed’ him with
repeted commands, and controlled him with a leash. Now after five years, he will not go anywhere, unless I command and have the leash round his neck! It is sad that thousands of sincere TPM are like Chico. It was the same with me. Although I left CPM, CPM and Alwinism was part and parcel of my total being, that I had to cry out to the Lord for deliverence. Thank God, I am free of Alwinism!!
It was Pastor Alwinism, who printed CPM letter heads with ‘We preach that we may present every man perfect in Christ. Col1:28.. It is still carried on to this day. What did Alwin preach?
He preached his personal revelations, as Gospel Truth. Is it any wonder that severe judjment came upon him. His last days on earth, even in his death, he was surrounded by drunks, smokers,and drug addicts. They even carried his casket to his grave!!!
What did Paul mean, when he said ‘ we preach that we may present every man perfect in Christ.’
He preached the ‘Great Mystery’ which is Christ in you the hope of glory!! Col:1 :27. Legalism, and Alwinism does not bring us to perfection. It is only our union, and knowledge of the the Christ who is in us, can bring us to perfection.
Cults do not preach Christ, they preach one mans personal revelations, like the Mormans, Jw’s Etc.
Is there anything in TPM besides Alwinism, where doctrines are concerned?
Ecclesiatical Enslavement and exploitation.
Multitudes of sincere and trusting believers are caught in a virtually invisible web of religious captivation
in Charismatic and other Neo-Pentecostal Churches and don’t even know it!!!!!!!!
Recently on my visit to India I attended a Sunday morning service, of one of the prominent Pentecostal
Churches in India. The Pastor in his sermon, commanded the believers not to attend any other service but theirs. He also mentioned that they would like to know which church they attended, in case they did. It was a surprise to me.
Just a few minutes back, I opend my Philips translation of the Bible, and my eyes fell on Isaiah 10:1″ Shame on you who make unjust laws, and publish burdensome decrees, depriving the poor of justice, robbing the the weakest of my people of their rights.” Many burdens and laws have been heaped on
unsuspecting people who are led like sheep to the slaughter, all under the guise of holiness, and subimission to those in spiritual authority.
Judaism built a wall arround itself for two reasons:
1. To keep people out.
2. To keep people in.
The misuse of spiritual authority in a church setting is most of the time to keep people ignorant of the word of God, so that they would believe and follow their beliefs and doctrines of their particular interpretation, and thereby control people. Peter warned against this in 1 Peter 2-5.(Philips) Tend the flock of God whose shepherds you are, and do it not under compulsion, but of your own free will, as God would have it: not for gain but out of sheer devotion. not Tyrannizing over those who are allotted to your care, but setting an example to the flock!!!!!!!!
Holiness in any form or in any context cannot be legislated. It has to be the out working of Christ in you who is the hope of glory. Legalism, might sound and look good, but it breeds hate, dissention and spiritual death in the end. Each person has to grow to the extent he lets the Grace of God work in his life.
No one is justified by keeping the law.
Horrow stories of authoritarian abuse and exploitation and psychological enslavement in certified Christian Churches abound. Eccesiastical enslavement and exploitation is widespread in many churches. These groups are not radical fringe religious sects and cults, but well-respected church groups espousing orthdox Christian, beliefs, whose membership is comprised of a cross section of Americans, individuals and families, of every race, education level, and station of life.
The mechanisms of psychological manipulation, domination and control employed in these groups are virtually identical, to those employed by certified cults. Indeed the stark truth is that many of the groups and churches who employ these techniques, and mechanisms are themselves at the very minimum quashi-cults, and in some cases bona fide cults.
So what are the consequences and effects we are talking about here, a scant few disllusioned people with their feelings little hurt? Far from it!! We are talking about an immense number of broken and destroyed families, marriges, friendships, multitudes of sincre, trusting people are spiritually shipwrecked, potentially for life, and dont know it!! Added to these are a number of break downs, ( This happened to my mother, who was seperated from her young children and our father in her late twenties.)
health maladies, suicides, premature deaths due to related causes, and the like, just to name some of the consequences experienced by victims. Indeed the havoc and decimation wreaked upon victims are far too extreeme and frankly, morose to possibly able to relate here. but suffice it to say it is sweeping, mind boggling; and sadly in some cases barring the miraculous, irreversable!!!!!!!
Let us stand fast in the Liberty, whereby we have been set free. Let us not be bound by man made doctrines, and practices. Let us come under the Lordship of Jesus our blessed redeemer and Gracious Father, Jesus Christ, who gave his Life for our redemption and freedom. If the Son has set you free you are free indeed!! Let God be glorified in our lives, and our freedom.
Ray,
Someone is mis-using my name. If you can tell me which comments are not yours, I can delete them. I suspect Jacob might using your name, because the IP nos match.
Hello Rachel,
You can be sure that I am not using your name.
Sam Alan
Sam,
I never even thought of you. I think it must be some kid trying to act funny…
Rachel,
Somebody mis-used my identity to post a message on July 17 at 6:16 pm. I immediately issued a clarification that this was not me (July 17 at 9:17 pm). The same day, Ray’s identitity was also violated (July 17 at 6:37 pm).
I have a hunch that these two messages were posted by the same person. You mentioned that the IP address of the person that mis-used Ray’s name matches with Jacob’s. Could you please verify if it is from the same IP address in my case too?
It is an irony that some TPM supporters resort to cheating and lying to fight for their church’s doctrines. These people should understand such unethical means will not help TPM’s cause. They are only deceiving themselves in the end.
ABAS,
Its actually disgusting the levels some people stoop to.
Do you remember that message from Susan that she has repented of her sins? Well those messages were fake (someone misused Susan’s ID. I correspond with Susan so I know for sure) – and those messages posted in my name and Ray’s name are also fake.
I’ll check ur messages. But then if u told me which message it would be easier to check. The archives on my wordpress are long.
Hi guys, I am back. So how is life???
You can do nothing to TPM, ha, ha ha. You fellows will die but TPM will remain.
Regards
Jacob
Rachel,
The following message posted on July 17, 2009 at 6:16 pm is not mine.
QUOTE:
on July 17, 2009 at 6:16 pm ABAS
Jacob,
You are a systematically brain washed TPM. Even you dont consider your marriage (which you say was conducted wrongly) as a wrong practise, how else you could be corrected?? You are sick. I have no other words…
ABAS
UNQUOTE:
Cant you all stop these unfruitful works and do something worth???
There are millions of people blessed and many are offended. This depicts the personal standard and not of any organisization.
ABAS,
I have deleted the comment. The IP address is
114.31.145.59 same as the other fake messages
Submitted on 2009/07/17 at 6:16pm
Actually all TPM fellows are bullshit peoples… They are clearly brainwashed hogs, pastor pleasors and deep horizons…
They think that they are great and better christians, which is actually wrong.
I know one TPMite, a brainwashed fellow, here with me and he is sick of his TPM.
All TPMites are like this….SICK……SICK OF EVERYTHING…
Suprisingly Jacob’s IP address currently is 114.31.130.153 but earlier it was 114.31.145.59 ….I think he’s mailing us from two different locations
Yes, Rachel
Someone is using my name.
I have nothing to do with the above posts…
Susan
POSTS FROM ABAS, RACHEL AND OTHERS ON THE IP ADDRESS POINTS OUT THAT SOMEONE IS SENDING POSTS FROM MY PLACE!!!! UNFORTUNATELY THIS IS OUR COMPANY LIBRARY AND I AM USING LIBRARY PC. THERE ARE THREE MALLUS WORKING WITH US IN OUR COMPANY AND ALL OF THEM ARE CHRISTIANS OF VARIOUS DENOMINATIONS!!!
I LEFT THIS BLOG WITH MY REPLY TO ABAS, ABOUT WHO IS TRUE TPM!! I TOLD HIM THAT HE IS ALREADY HALF AG AND HALF TPM.
I SAW HIS REPLY AND AM YET TO RESPOND.
ALSO SAW POSTS FROM RAY, SUSAN, ABAS, MANIKAM, SAM ETC
I RESPOND TO ALL OF YOU THAT IT WOULD BE GOOD IF YOU KNOW ME AS JACOB AND FROM INDIA. I AM SORRY THAT I CANNOT DISCLOSE MY LOCATION, PLACE OR NATIVE FURTHER. ALREADY THERE ARE LOT OF ALLEGATIONS!!!
TO RAY,
IT SEEMS YOU DONT UNDERSTAND WHAT I SAID. YOU ARE AN EX-TPM AND SO PLEASE, FOR GOD’S SAKE, DONT WORRY ABOUT WHAT AND HOW TPM BELIEVERS ARE LIVING. ITS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS!!!
YOU JUST THINK AND BE WORRIED OF YOUR CURRENT CHURCH AND ITS MEMBERS….
TO MANIKAM,
WHATEVER HAPPENED TO ME WAS GOD’S WILL. IF GOD WOULD NOT HAD ALLOWED IT, NO TPM MINISTER OR EVEN MY CURRENT WIFE COULD HAD DONE THIS TO ME. IT WAS GOD’S WISH TO SCREW ME UP.
AS JESUS SAID TO PILATE, UNLESS THERE IS A PERMISSION FROM ABOVE, NOBODY COULD HAD HARMED ME. THANKS FOR YOUR KINDNESS TO ME.
EVEN IF I HAVE BILLION RUPEE LOSES IN TPM, I WOULD NEVER DESERT MY CHURCH, THOUGH THEY TEACH WRONG OR DO WRONG. I AM NOT SUPPOSE TO LOOK TO THEIR PERSONAL LIFE.
I AM VERY MUCH CLEAR ABOUT MY OPINION ON TPM. NOTHING IS ENFORCED ON ME NOR I AM IN ANY BINDINGS. I HOPE THIS IS CLEAR TO YOU. ALL THOSE WHO LEFT TPM IN THE NAME OF WRONG PRACTISES, WRONG DOCTRINES ETC ETC WERE CHEAP BELEIVERS!!! SORRY TO SAY, BUT IT IS FACT!!! THEY DID NOT LOOKED TO THEIR OWN LIFE & CALLING, BUT TO THE TPM MINISTERS, THEIR LIFE, THEIR ACTS AND SPEECHES…..
IF THEY WERE TRUE BELEIVERS, THEY WOULD HAD LOOKED TO JESUS, STAYED HERE AND CORRECTED THE WRONG DOINGS, THEMSELVES BEING UNSHAKEN OR UNMOVED BY THE THINGS HAPPENING AROUND!!!
TO SAM
WHAT I WROTE IN MY PREVIOUS BLOG ABOUT A CENTRE MOTHER IS TRUE. I DONT WRITE ANYTHING WHICH IS UNKNOWN TO ME. AND FOR YOUR INFORMATION, THAT PARTICULAR WOMEN IS THROWN OUT OF MINISTRY AND SHE HAS MARRIED THE PERSON BY WHOM SHE WAS MOTHERED AND TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE THEY ARE ATTENDING IPC CHURCH. THE BEST PLACE FOR EX-TPM’s.!!!!
THE PREVIOUS LAST FEW POSTS ARE NOT MINE. THIS CAN BE CLEARLY IDENTIFIED BY THE LOGO ON THE RIGHT SIDE.
JACOB
Dangerous Pentecostalism
1=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-RC1MuF634&feature=channel
2=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFHwkCbyUxQ&feature=channel
3=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPR8MrPaH8Y&feature=channel
4= http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fE_fdmjkck =This man is leading this movement
5=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3qrCUw_yqE&feature=related = I am sad this dangerous man has made his inroads into India and deluding Indian Christians
6=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N8izKEfbaE&feature=related
7=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIl0jviHoq0
Hello sister,
Thanks…your words are very nice.. thanks for ur testimony abt TPM….through ur comments people know abt the TPM people’s faithness and their holyness….lord jesus christ is using you to publish abt his children..praise the lord.. you are the witness….
Hi Friends,
I am not a born TPM believer but my parents started going to TPM church when I was studying 7th standard. And from now on God id providing everything as per his glory to our family. Still i am not a TPM believer(but my parents are), but i belive in christ and appreciate the pastors and believers to live a different life amidst this bad world. There might me some guys in church who are bad but its not all guys(after all we are all human being and not living in heaven). So rather commenting on some church ,just try to understand where you stand in christ. try to check are you and ur heart is good and close to God. Honestly I am not.But i pray to God to make me a good child of him. Whereever we are and whichever church we go….just read the bible and try to atleast not comment on another people will n wish as you have lot more things to do on ur life to make u better in christ.It should be just u and ur god and ur bible. I think that will force you to pray and build relationship with God almighty,so all these words of hatredness against anyone or any denomination will not even blink in you mind or in this blog..I love christianity and just wish to live in the doctrines of god which i am not doing right now. But i will try and i am trying…………Keep trying guys……..God Bless you…..
Dear Pratap,
I am glad your and your parents found the Lord in TPM. We wish you all the best.
God bless you.
Sam
DEAR BIJU PHILIP,
You seemed to defend TPM very vehemently ,but when I gave you a sound Scriptural response , you seem to have gone to the corner.You keep mum for you have no scriptural answer.
In reply to one of previous letters I wrote back saying Alwinism is well and alive in TPM even today. As an example I gave the example of unmarried men and women living under the same roof . This is one of Pastor Alwin’s man made invention. I wrote to you the following three IRREFUTABLE points .
1. Pastor Raman Kutty Paul the founder of CPM never promoted faith home like life style. He led a good Christian family life even after planting the CPM church and two children were born to him after CPM was established. He lived just like ‘Apostle Manohar’ lives in North India with his wife , children and grand children.
2.So, It was Pastor Alwin who invented this anti Scriptural system of men and women living under the same roof and he himself fell a prey to that. But TPM is still following this system even though they got Pastor Alwin excommunicated in 1962. It is a burning shame.
3.This faith home life style of men and women living under the same roof in NOT found in the BIBLE AT ALL. No can show EVEN ONE VERSE in support of this system of men and women living under the same room in the name of serving God .
You do not find EVEN ONE EXAMPLE of such a life style in the Church History.
Thus this life style came out of the fertile imagination of Pastor Alwin.
Dear Biju , in the name of OUR LORD you must boldly step out of this CULT. I pray you do it soon in Jesus name.
D. Manickam
To all TPM Pastors, workers, and believers world wide.
Greetings in the Name of our LOrd and Jesus Christ.
So you really think that you ‘Preach that you may present in every man perfect in Christ Jesus?’ Do you have any other revelation other than Alwinism?
Pastor Paul was a good man, who believed that he should trust God for his needs.(Rice and curry, bread and butter) It was narrowed down to daily physical needs. The Just shall live by Faith encompassed much more. It meant that we trust God for all our needs, spiritual and meterial.Coming to meterial needs Paul says, ” I worked lest I become a burden to you.” He worked with his hands. It would be good for some of your Pastors to work with their hands, specially those who are over fed, and over weight. I grew up in the FH, and I know how you operate. As kids we were worked like slaves. We had to wash heaps of clothes for the Pastors, while they sat around. No wonder the requiement for Pastoral Duty was to have a wife, children, and a good manager of a Godly home. The pastors and workers slept on comfortable beds while us children, on the floor without proper bedding blankets Etc. Alwin was at the same time flying around the word, ‘preaching to present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.’ This is downright herasey!
Alwin wore the best sandals, while us children had no sandals. We walked on the hot roads, on sharp gravel, dusty roads on our bare feet. If Alwin was a married man, and had children do you think he would have done this to his children.Do you really believe that God gives ‘DEEP’ Revelations to perfect every man in Christ Jesus to a man of this Character? ( In a sense Alwinism was ‘deep revelations’ , because it was from the deep pit of hell!!! All the Top Pastors are guilty of Alwins sins of commission, and ommission, because they covered up for him. Hitler did not succeed, as a one man MONSTER. He had lots of henchmen who covered up and helped him with all his inhuman activities. JUst like it was in CPM.
Have to take my dog for a walk. He is brainwashed, and has to be on a leash, or he does not move. This is the only way I can control him. Cults brainwash and leash!!! Hope you are not in a cult!! I wonder!!!
I SHALL RETURN!!
I will be back with more of Alwinism. The truth will set you free!!!
It seems now that Mr Ray and Mr Abas are tired and that energy has come in Sam and Manichem.
I dont understand what Mr Sam will do here with his RETURN. He want truth to set every TPM Pastor, TPM Believer and TPM Workers free….Free from what????
I have heard Jesus saying, as per bible, that “He will return”. Here is one more saying, he shall return….!!Wow..!! Return for what????
Dear Sam, I think you dont understand the language other than CHICO language, your dog!!! which you refered in some last posts.. Let me explain in that way, perhaps you may understand.
When I was a child, I once saw a big elephant walking through a street. It had its owner sitting on the top. All the street dogs where back of this elephant, gathered together and barking. But none of them dared to go near the elephant. Neither did I saw that elephant responding to these barks.
Simiarly, you too are barking here like “I SHALL RETURN”, blah, blah, blah and you will find no results.. If you claim that Ray and Abas has (been set free) came out of TPM, then I would like to remind you that there are thousands falling and millions raising up(new souls). Those who fell were not worthy of what they were called for. All of them were cheap believers or cheap souls who looked here and there for answers. Looked others about what they did instead of looking to their saviour, they should had looked to Jesus and could had got all their answers. Unfortunately….they didnt do it.
Also, I would like to highlight to all blog readers here to kindly read the above post from Mr Sam. See his list of complaints.
1) He had to wash a heap of clothes
2) Worked like Slaves
3) Slept of floor
4) No Sandals
5) Walked on hot roads, etc with bare foot.
Actually these were his problems to come out of TPM!!!!
Oops, “CHICO” his dog…again….
Dear Sam, first get rid of this “CHICO” from your life and be freed yourself.
JACOB
SAM ALAN
RETURN SOON
Talking of Alwinism, I have a very sincere question. PastoR Alwin was the chief pastor of CPM for nearly 25 years. NO ONE IN THE HISTORY OF THE CPM CHURCH HELD THAT POSITION FOR SUCH A LONG PERIOD OF TIME. AND WE ALL KNOW AS CPM ITSELF ADMITS THAT HE WAS EXPELLED FOR LEADING AN IMMORAL LIFE.
HE WAS PLAYING THAT GAME OF IMMORALITY FOR SEVERAL YEARS IN DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE WORLD.
FOR NEARLY 25 YEARS HE LAID HIS HANDS AND CHOSE THE FULL TIME WORKERS AND MANY OF THOSE YEARS CONVETION AFTER CONVENTION HE LAID HIS ‘HOLY’ HANDS AND CHOSE MANY OF THE PRESENT WORKERS. SOME OF THEM ARE ELDERS, PASTORS AND CENTRAL PASTORS AND EVEN SENIOR MOST PASTORS.
IS IT PROPER FOR THEM TO CONTINUE IN THE MINISTRY WITH THE FILTHY ANNOINTING AND CHOICE IMPARTED THROUGH THE MINISTRY OF PASTOR ALWIN.?
HE USED TO RUN FROM ONE END OF THE LINE TO THE OTHER LAYING HIS HANDS AS HE WAS LEAD BY ‘THE HOLY SPIRIT’. ‘
BUT NOW WE KNOW THAT HE MADE THOSE CHOICES NOT LED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT BUT BY HIS FILTHY ADUTEROUS SPIRIT.
WILL ALL THOSE WORKERS CHOSEN AND ORDAINED BY HIM AT LEAST GET RE ORDAINED . I AM ASKING THIS ON BEHALF OF THE BELIEVERS OF TPM WHO ARE LEAD BY THESE SHEPHERDS WHO WERE CHOSEN BY PASTOR ALWIN WHILE HE WAS GOING AROUND THE GLOBE TO HOLD CONVENTIONS AS HE WAS LEAD BY THAT ADULTEROUS SPIRIT.
MY DEAR TPM SENIOR PASTORS , DO YOU STILL TEACH THAT OLD TIME TEACHING THAT THOSE WHO TOUCHED THOSE WHO TOUCHED A DEAD BODY IS ALSO DEFILED?
IF THAT TEACHING IS TRUE THEN YOU ALL ARE DEFILED. WHEN SUCH IS THE CASE HOW DARE YOU CONTINUE TO BE ELDERS, PASTORS, CENTRAL PASTORS AND CHIEF PASTORS?
DANEL MANICKAM.
TO : WHOM IT MAY CONCERN :
IT WAS BY MISTAKE I MISSED TYPING MY NAME IN MY LAST LETTER.
I DO WANT TO GET UNSUBSCRIBED. THANKS
D. MANICKAM
DEAR SAM AND ALL THE OTHER BLOGGERS,
PLEASE IGNORE THE LETTERS OF JACOB FOR HE IS CAUGHT RED HANDED AND WE ALL KNOW HE HAS LOST HIS INGEGRITY.
D.MANICKAM
Hello Jacob,
I am back.
I like your blogs, jokes at my expence, and your general attitude. You have a sense of humour. Many TPmites go along with a long face, thinking it is a sign of Holiness.
Jacob,
So you dont like Chico? He gives me more love than I HAD IN tpm AS A CHILD. DO YOU HAVE CHILDREN? How would you like your children to be treated like some of us were at the hand of some bullies. Some of them were Pastors, who are probably with Alwin, where ever he is.
Did Jesus who say ” dont throw pearls before swine,” give deep revelations to a fallen immoral man like Alwin? God forbid. Millions of TPMites, and Alwinites need , De programming, deliverence, some a good spiritual flogging , untill the spiritual eyes are opened.
I shall return with my brain washed Chico on a leash!!
Dear Bro Manickam.
I read you latest blog with great intrest. Once we are gone there will be no one to expose TPM, and Aliwinism. It is our duty, for the sake of the many sincere who are trapped, and are led to the slaughter, at the diabloical altar of Alwinism spiritually, by senior Pastors who are enjoying the GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD life.
God bless you.
Sam.
DEAR BIJU PHILIP,
Still no answers from you. So I am sending the same letter you , just in case you missed reading it . ALSO I HAVE ADDED PARA NO. 4.
You seemed to defend TPM very vehemently ,but when I gave you a sound Scriptural response , you seem to have gone to the corner.You keep mum for you have no scriptural answer.
In reply to one of previous letters I wrote back saying Alwinism is well and alive in TPM even today. As an example I gave the example of unmarried men and women living under the same roof . This is one of Pastor Alwin’s man made invention. I wrote to you the following three IRREFUTABLE points .
1. Pastor Raman Kutty Paul the founder of CPM never promoted faith home like life style. He led a good Christian family life even after planting the CPM church and two children were born to him after CPM was established. He lived just like ‘Apostle Manohar’ lives in North India with his wife , children and grand children.
2.So, It was Pastor Alwin who invented this anti Scriptural system of men and women living under the same roof and he himself fell a prey to that. But TPM is still following this system even though they got Pastor Alwin excommunicated in 1962. It is a burning shame.
3.This faith home life style of men and women living under the same roof in NOT found in the BIBLE AT ALL. No can show EVEN ONE VERSE in support of this system of men and women living under the same room in the name of serving God .
You do not find EVEN ONE EXAMPLE of such a life style in the Church History.
Thus this life style came out of the fertile imagination of Pastor Alwin.
4.IF HONEST PEOPLE LIKE YOU KEEP QUIET AND SIMPLY KEEP FOLLOWING AND SUPPORTING THAT FAITH HOME SYSTEM INVENTED BY PASTOR ALWIN , THE AWEFUL THINGS HAPPEN IN THE FAITH HOME CIRCLES.
ONE RECENT EXAMPLE OF MANY OF THIS NATURE.
PASTOR P. V. MATTHEW THE CENTRAL PASTOR OF TUTICORIN IN TAMIL NADU WAS CAUGHT RED HANDED IN IMMORALITY . AT THE TIME HE WAS EXPOSED OF THIS SIN ,THEY ALSO FOUND A SUIT CASE FULL OF MONEY WORTH 16 LACS AND SEVENTY THOUSAND RUPEES. THE NEWS CAME IN SOME SECULAR NEWPAPERS IN CHENNAI AND KERALA. A COUPLE OF CHRISTIAN WEEKLIES CARRIED THE STORY.
BUT PASTOR WESLEY BROUHGT TO IRUMBULIYUR ( TPM’S WORLD HEAD QUARTERS) FOR A COUPLE OF MONTHS AND THEN THEY TRANSFERED HIM AS THE CENTRAL PASTOR OF TIRUPATHI IN ANDHRA PRADESH!!!.
NOW , I UNDERSTAND HE TEACHING ABOUT THE DEEPERS DOCTRINES OF ZION TO THE PEOPLE OF TIRUPATHI.
DEAR BIJU IF BELIEVERS LIKE YOU RAISE YOUR VOICES AGAINST THIS ANTI SCRIPTURAL AND ALWIN INVENTED FAITH HOME SYSTEMS MORE AWEFUL THINGS IN TPM.
Dear Biju , in the name of OUR LORD you must boldly step out of this CULT. I pray you do it soon in Jesus name.
D. Manickam
P.S. ANY ONE WHO READS THIS MAY CONTACT ME;
dmanickam8@gmail.com
john 16:13
Hi Jacob,
Just in case you still do not know what Tpmites have to be free from, it is nothing but ‘Alwinism’
Please read my blog “Eccleciastical captivation and doctrinal domination.
Thousands are leaving the JWs, Mormanism, Hinduism, and other religions. Also Thousands are joining these cults and religions, just like people join TPM.
According to your argument these cults and religions are OK. Time you wake up my friend.
If you are really serious, why not arrange a debate on ‘Alwinism’ at the International Convention, and let the people decide. If you guys buy me a ticket, and also one for Chico, I will be there. My part of the Debate will about Alwin the Heratic. I live in Canada.
Finally my friend, have you heard the saying,
‘IGNORANCE IS BLISS?
I shall return, may be with Chico.
Sam
“Millions of TPMites, and Alwinites need , De programming, deliverence, some a good spiritual flogging , untill the spiritual eyes are opened.”
Brother, you have to understand that a number of TPM pastors even from the time of Alwin has endured the sufferings patiently, spent themselves in the way of the Lord and went to receive their reward while you are still spending your life in grudge, bitterness and anger. Its high time you take stock of your spiritual state in comparison with the likes of Pastor T U. None of the sufferings you mentioned are anything compared to the glory reserved for us. These senior pastors whom you accuse to be “enjoying” their life also has gone through the same path of sufferings. Its sad that some people develop bitterness and grudge while going through such experiences while others let God develop His divine character in them. I am sad to see yourself in the former group.
Dear Nameless, ( gsr)
Practically in all but one of the New Testament books the names of the authors are given mostly right at the beginning of the N. T. books .
But to date not one of the booklets published by TPM (they haven’t yet written a book) bears the names of the author or authors.
1. Of course the main reason they do this , is because , THE SPIRIT OF ALWINISM THAT CONTROLS ALWAYS want them to do contrary to the good examples set in the New Testament.
2. Not only they do something exactly oppsite of the Bible way ,they also want to have show of humility ( a false humility ) saying we do not want our names to be known.
Pl. ponder for while , my dear TPM leadership. Do you mean to say that apostles Paul, Peter , John and such like wrote their names right at the beginning of their letters
( epistles) because they wanted show off themselves as great writers?
THEY DID SO FOR THEY DID NOT BELEIVE IN WRITING ANONYMOUS LETTERS AS TPM DOES NOW.
3. If that was not wrong for those apostle why should it be wrong for you, THE self -styled apostles of the twenty first century? ? IS IT NOT BECAUSE THE LATE PASTOR ALWIN TAUGHT AND TRAINED YOU TO THINK AND DO SO?
4. The other reason of course is , YOU DO NOT HAVE THE GUTS TO STAND BY WHAT YOU WRITE BECAUSE YOU KNOW THAT WHAT YOU ALL ARE TAUGT AND TRAINED TO BELIEVE IS NOT SUPPORTED BY THE WORD OF GOD.
5. ONE GOOD EXAMPLE OF THIS;
THE ANTI SCRIPTURAL FAITH HOME SYSTEM INVENTED AND INTRODUCED BY PASTOR ALWIN .
I DARE THEM TO PUBLISH AT LEAST ONE BOOK SHOWING SUPPORT FROM THE HOLY WORD OF GOD OR FROM THE CHURCH HISTORY.
THEY COULD NOT DO IT FOR THEY CANNOT FIND ANY SUPPORT AT ALL FOR THAT SYSTEM OF UNMARRIED MEN AND WOMEN LIVING UNDER THE SAME ROOM IN THE NAMEOF DOING MINISTRY. ALSO THEY CANNOT FIND ANY EVIDENCE EVEN FROM THE CHURCH HISTORY FOR THIS CULTISH LIFE STYLE INVENTED AND INTRODUCED BY THE LATE PASTOR ALWIN.
PASTOR RAMKUTTY PAUL WAS A GREAT SAINT OF GOD. AFTER HE FOUNDED THE CPM CHURCH , HE CONTINUED TO LIVE WITH WIFE AND CHILDREN AND TWO MORE CHILDREN WERE BORN TO THEM AFTER THE PLANTING OF TPM. HE NEVER BELIEVED OR PRACTICED UNMARRIED MEN AND WOMEN LIVING UNDER THE SAME ROOF FOR HE NEVER BELIEVED ANYTHING THAT THE BIBLE DOES NOT SUPPORT.
IN THE NAME OF OUR LORD , I APPEAL TO ALL THE TPM WORKERS TO STEP OUT OF THIS MAN ( ALWIN) MADE SYSTEM OF FAITH HOMES.
DANIEL MANICKAM
Gsr,
I have no grudge or axe to grind with anyone except those who delebrately promote Alwinism.
Alwinism is a cancer in the body of Christ, and it has to be rooted out. Those who support, defend and promote Alwinism, will eventualy end up like Alwin, if not for the Grace of God. What suffering did Wesley go through? What suffering did TU endure, except suffering foolishy due to illness, which had no medical intervention. Why do these great men die of deadly diseases in TPm,including my father. If it was for their sanctification, they should have asked the Lord to keep them sick all their life!!
I dont think any of these guys suffered like me as a child. Sexually abused, by both brothers and sisters, physically abused, and mentally destroyed, for life if not for the grace of God.
I do not know who you are, and what your position is with TPM. Fight for the truth, and not Alwinism. My heart goes out to the thousands of senior believers, and workers who gave their all to TPM , and now although they have been enlightened, find no place to go to, for lack of funds, and emotional attachents. (Brainwashed)
I shall return
TO : DEAR NAMELESS. ( Gsr)
Though I have written a fairly long letter showing from the Word of God , A Christian must never write anonymous letters , you have not yet able to gather the courage needed to give out your name. How could you , when none of your co pastors do not have the guts to print their names in any one of their publications?
NOT ONLY DO YOU WRITE LETTERS WITHOUT GIVING OUT YOUR NAMES , YOU ALSO SEEM TO SPECIALISE IN WRITING HIMALAYAN LIES.
2. IN MY LAST LETTER I CHALLENGED YOU TO COME OUT WITH AT LEAST ONE BOOKLET GIVING AT LEAST ONE VERSE TO SUPPORT THE ANTI SCRIPTURAL ‘FAITH HOME’ SYSTEM OF MEN AND WOMEN LIVING TOGETHER UNDER THE SAME ROOF IN THE NAME OF SERVING GOD.
IN ITS HISTORY OF MORE OR LESS EIGHTY YEARS , TPM HAS NEVER WRITTEN ONE BOOK OR BOOKLET IN SUPPORT OF THE ANTI SCRPTURAL ‘FAITH HOME’ SYSTEM OF MEN AND WOMEN LIVING UNDER THE SAME ROOF. EVEN, THE LATE PASTOR ALWIN, THE ONLY INTELECTUAL GIANT THEY EVER HAD, DID NOT WRITE ON IT . FOR HE KNEW VERY WELL THAT THERE ABSOLUTELY NO SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT AT ALL FOR THIS MAN
( ALWIN) – MADE SYSTEM.
3. A HIMALAYAN LIE
Gsr, THE ANONYMOUS PASTOR OF TPM CLAIMS RIGHT ON THE FIRST LINE OF HIS LETTER THAT THERE ARE ” MILLIONS OF TPMITES” . THERE CANNOT BE ANY THING FARTHER FROM THE TRUTH.
TPM HAS ITS WORLD HEADQUARTERS IN CHENNAI INDIA AND CHENNAI IS THE FOURT LARGEST OF ALL THE INDIAN CITIES . IN THAT CITY THEY HAVE 51 FAITH HOMES
( CHURCHES). THIS INFORMATION IS BASED ON THE TPM ADDRESS BOOK OF 2008 . RELIABE SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION SHOWS THAT THERE ARE OVER 2200 FULL GOSPEL CHURCHES IN THE SAME CITY OF CHENNAI.
CHENNAI IS THE CITY WHERE THEY HAVE MOST NUMBER OF CITIES . I HAVE ATTENDED AND EVEN PREACHED (SUNDAY MORNING SERVICES)IN SOME OF THE TPM CHURCHES IN DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE WORLD . MOST OF THEM ARE OF VERY FEW MEMBERS. I HAVE BEEN TO TPM CHURCHES IN AMERICA , EUROPE AND S’PORE . BUT IN ALL THESE CHURCHES MOST OF THE MEMBERS ARE EITHER FROM CEYLON OR INIDA.
WHEN THIS TPM PASTOR TALKS OF MILLIONS OF TPMites HE MUST EITHER BE A SPECIALIST IN HIMALAYAN LIES OR DAY DREAMER.
D. MANICKAM
SPEAK EVIL OF NO MAN
Dear brother Daniel,
I appreciate your intense longing to know my name. I am George Samuel Raju (GSR being my callout name), a keralite, working in Infosys Bangalore, member of TPM, Electronics City, Bangalore. As I post from both my office system and residence my posts will come from at least 2 IP addresses. I generally do not give my personal information on public sites, hence gave the callout name GSR. Anyway as you are not wasting any oppurtunity to accuse TPM and its members and since I do not wish my integrity to be questioned please feel free to ask any detail that you want to know about me. (Thus said I am making it clear here that I do not wish to engage anything related to people bashing and name calling – I am not saying that you did that, but some are doing it)
Point No: 1 – Anonymous Books
——————————
– Your first argument in this regard is false. It is not just one book that doesn’t mention the name of the author in the New Testament. The four gospels, acts of the apostles, the epistles of john etc. doesn’t mention the name of the authors. The names as we see in modern Bibles are not part of the original manuscript but included by editors many decades or even centuries later.
– And the main reason why some of the NT letters mention the author’s name is because of the widespread circulation of false letters that started spreading among the believers in the 1st century. Paul himself mentions how the Thessalonians were troubled by some letter pretending to be from the Apostles which claimed that the Day of Christ had already come.
– And the Christian church was an unrecognised (by the Roman Empire) movement at that time and didn’t have a common name by which to address the letters, as we have today.
– Again unlike the TPM doctrinal books which are the collection of knowledge and revelations given to many servants of God, most of Paul’s letters contained what was revealed to him and hence he could sign it with his name.
– Moreover not many (or any?) of the Old Testament books name its authors. Hope you accept those as part of the Bible even though you don’t know the authors.
– Coming to the second part of the argument, TPM books are not anonymous letters as you try to put it. All books carry the attestation of the TPM church, which is not a way to run away because of lack of guts, but to emphasize the collective ownership of the truths in the book by the church and all its ministers.
– The messages in the books are not the opinions or knowledge of one man or a few men as we see in other churches, but the totality of the knowledge given to all the saints of God. We want to see the church as one, its doctrine as one, as one body hence we want the books in the name of the church and not any person.
– All TPM ministers are responsible for what is written in the doctrinal books and you need not try to figure out who wrote the book to calrify something about it. Hence even if the authors have passed away there is still the church which holds the responsibilty and it will not run away from it. Its rather more of guts to hold accountability than the lack of it.
Hence considering all these facts I will humbly present my case that what TPM does in not publishing the name of the authors is the best practice that can be followed in this regard. If only, other churches also follow these and give all the glory to God it would have been good.
(Will continue if its the will of God. Apologies for any spelling or grammatical mistaked as there was no time to review)
Let the love of God prevail.
— GSR
[i]”Gsr, THE ANONYMOUS PASTOR OF TPM CLAIMS RIGHT ON THE FIRST LINE OF HIS LETTER THAT THERE ARE ” MILLIONS OF TPMITES” . THERE CANNOT BE ANY THING FARTHER FROM THE TRUTH.”[/i]
Brother Daniel Manickam, I am sorry, but have to let you know that I was quoting from what Bro. Sam Alan wrote. I request you to please read properly before accusing me. I never claimed that there are millions in TPM. I have put that sentence in quotation and have separated my words from it. And I am not a pastor of TPM, but just a believer having fellowship in TPM.
God bless and give grace.
Jacob,
Although you did not address your post dated July 29, 2009 to me, I must still respond as this post refers to my name a couple of times.
You said:
“It seems now that Mr Ray and Mr Abas are tired and that energy has come in Sam and Manichem.”
I respond:
Let me clarify that I will never become tired or stop writing to expose the erroneous practices and doctrines of TPM with scriptural support for the benefit of many innocent and gullible victims of TPM. In fact, you are yet to respond to my post dated July 18, 2009. You even acknowledge this in your post dated July 25, 2009: “I SAW HIS REPLY AND AM YET TO RESPOND”. So don’t say I got tired, instead, post your response to my blog dated July 18, 2009. As long as you quote the scriptures to support your position, I am prepared to engage you in a meaningful dialogue for the benefit of many who visit this site.
You said:
“If you claim that Ray and Abas has (been set free) came out of TPM, then I would like to remind you that there are thousands falling and millions raising up(new souls). Those who fell were not worthy of what they were called for. All of them were cheap believers or cheap souls who looked here and there for answers. Looked others about what they did instead of looking to their saviour, they should had looked to Jesus and could had got all their answers. Unfortunately….they didnt do it.”
I respond:
I am not surprised at your audacity to call another Christian “a cheap believer” and “a cheap soul”, because this is you and your unmistakable character. Before addressing other Christians so lowly, you should prove with scriptures why it is considered wrong for a Christian to discern or examine doctrinal matters. In my post dated July 18, I have very clearly provided many references from the scriptures as to why a Christian is encouraged to examine doctrinal matters.
Yes, I did look for answers here and there (from senior pastors and other workers in TPM) on many doctrinal matters that contradicted the scriptures. No pastor or worker from TPM was able to provide scripturally sound answers to my questions. Finally, I turned to Jesus my Saviour for answers, Who very clearly spoke to me through His Word that TPM is a cult and that I should come out of it. Let me admit, it was not very easy for me initially to accept the fact that TPM doctrines are erroneous and unscriptural. I had been indoctrinated with these false teachings for many years and I was not even prepared to accept the fact that I was enslaved in this cult. It took me many years of diligent study of the scriptures and seeking the will of God through prayers that I finally accepted my state to God and cried out for deliverance. Praise the Lord; He delivered me from all man-made doctrines.
Scripture is the only yardstick for determining the essentials of Christian faith. The Bible is the unrivalled regulator of faith. The Bible authenticates itself and through it and in it God speaks to the human heart. TPM is so blinded in their belief that only their church has the correct revelation of the truth and that only their members will be caught up in the rapture. They take certain obscure passages in scripture to prove their point but ignore the overwhelming weight of scripture that demolish such beliefs. This is a classic example of a group that can quote certain scripture passages by rote but they do not have enough understanding to even figure out why their position conflicts with other scriptures and with others who also claim to be Christians.
Those TPM members would be very wise to try to find out for themselves why other Christians say they teach a doctrine of works and they are legalistic. Arguing a position from the doctrine that you were spoon-fed will not bring you enlightenment. It will only bring further bondage. If your doctrine can stand in the light it will stand, but if the doctrine of your sect is darkness, that will be discovered in the true light. If you are open to truth, you will then be able to see the way out. However, if you wish to be wise in your own eyes and teach people some path to hell, you will bring upon yourself a harsher judgment.
If a church is founded on true scriptural principles it will withstand scrutiny of its teachings. The legalists, however, usually give no justification for their man-made rules except tradition and authority. “This is what our church believes, and you must obey the church. This is what the pastor teaches, and you must obey the pastor.” This kind of teaching will not be successful in developing true holiness.
IN MY LAST LETTER I CHALLENGED YOU TO COME OUT WITH AT LEAST ONE BOOKLET GIVING AT LEAST ONE VERSE TO SUPPORT THE ANTI SCRIPTURAL ‘FAITH HOME’ SYSTEM OF MEN AND WOMEN LIVING TOGETHER UNDER THE SAME ROOF IN THE NAME OF SERVING GOD. – Daniel Manickam
You have made at least two mistakes in formulating this argument.
– Firstly you do not seem to have any idea about how to judge whether something is Scriptural or not. It seems that you have made claim on the basis that you could not find any Scriptural parallel for the faith home style of living. Well, then you also need to understand that there is no Scriptural parallels for having church buildings, Bible Schools and theology degrees, orphanages, hospitals, or even tract distribution among many things that we have in our modern churches. Would you apply the same principles and declare all these activities as unscriptural? Or could you show me single church organistaion that is Scriptural according to your definition? What you need to know is that the Scripture tells us to DO certain things which we are bound to do and NOT DO certain things which we are not supposed to do. The Scripture doesn’t give any instructions on the fashion of social life believers or servants of God has to adopt. It doesn’t say anything like ‘DO THIS’ or ‘DONT DO THIS’ in relation to this. I challenge you to show which Scriptural principle does the faith home system violate?
– Secondly, contrary to what you have claimed there are Scriptural parallels for the faith home style of living.
“And when they were come in, they went up into an UPPER ROOM, where ABODE both PETER, and JAMES, and JOHN, and ANDREW, PHILIP, and THOMAS, BARTHOLOMEW, and MATTHEW, JAMES the son of Alphaeus, and SIMON Zelotes, and JUDAS the brother of James. These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the WOMEN, and MARY the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.” (Acts 1:13,14)
Well, here we find a bunch of men and women living under the same roof in the name of serving the Lord. They were not living as husbands and wives there. It is interesting to note that none of the Apostles’ wives are mentioned and none of the women’s husbands are mentioned. They were brothers and sisters joined by the bond of Christian brotherhood living together. That was the first faith home. That still continues today in TPM. Please note the word ‘abode’; they were not just gathering for prayer, but lived there together at least for 10 days till the Pentecost.
– Nobody chops of his head if he gets a headache. Likewise if the faith home system has led to some immorality the solution is to solve the specific problem rather than chopping off the faith home system. Moreover immorality has happened in families, schools, hospitals, buses etc. Do we need to stop all these?
3. A HIMALAYAN LIE
Gsr, THE ANONYMOUS PASTOR OF TPM CLAIMS RIGHT ON THE FIRST LINE OF HIS LETTER THAT THERE ARE ” MILLIONS OF TPMITES” . THERE CANNOT BE ANY THING FARTHER FROM THE TRUTH. – Daniel Manickam
Though I had commented on this briefly, I again request you to desist from spreading lies about others who you don’t know and please don’t disgrace yourself. You have committed the following blunders in making this statement
– I have never claimed that TPM has millions of believers. You mistook my quoting of Sam Alan and made a false accusation against me.
– You have refuted yourself in flasely accusing me of making a Himalayan lie, yet made a Himalayan lie yourself by stating that I am a TPM pastor even though you were pretty sure that you were daring to say something that you have no idea about.
– When you said that “WHEN THIS TPM PASTOR TALKS OF MILLIONS OF TPMites HE MUST EITHER BE A SPECIALIST IN HIMALAYAN LIES OR DAY DREAMER.” you have in fact given some names to Bro. Sam Alan, but I believe he is ready to forgive you (See his post on July 30, 2009 at 3:28 am where he speaks abou the millions of TPMites which I quoted)
Come better next time.
– George Samuel Raju
Dear Brother George,
I am so very happy to know your name . I PROMISE I WILL NOT CALL YOU NAMELESS ANYMORE. Also, I do apologise for doing so.
2. I am happy to know that you are not one of those TPM pastors who treat their subordinates like slaves even to the extent of abusing them not only physically but also sexually ,not only the brothers but also sisters. This is EXACTLY what Sam Alan has written about his experience as a small boy in the faith homes.
I am sorry you were not moved to write one line of sympathy when read that pathetic story of Sam Alan. Of course I do not expect it from any of the TPM pastors but you are still only a believer as such you must feel sorry for people like Sam Alan. Instead , you were defending the self styled saints and their mean and filthy behaviour. I have personally heard from two other workers children who are over 60 telling me the same kind of cruelty they underwent while they grew up in the faith homes as workers children.
I , myself, have seen ” saints” being massaged by their slavish subordinates during late night times for they could not go to sleep without such things for they were “consecreted saints who taught deeper holiness which is not revealed to any other Pentecostals” !!
It did not bother me at that time for I was at that a brain washed man . Now I am Blood washed child of God.
2. Again I am sorry for writing that “All but one of the N. T. Books “. What I really meant all but one of the letters (epistles) of the N. T.
WELL , BROTHER GEORGE , I SINCERELY APOLOGISE FOR MY PERSONAL MISTAKES MADE IN MY LETTERs THAT YOU HAVE POINTED OUT TO ME. I WOULD EVEN THANK YOU FOR POINTING THEM OUT TO ME, MY BROTHER.
BUT NOW LET US COME TO THE REAL ISSUE.
IT IS NOT THE PERSONAL MISTAKES THAT I MADE IN MY LETTERS.BUT THE DETESTABLE DOCTRINAL ERRORS THAT THE CPM CHURCH HAS BEEN TEACHING AND PRACTISING FOR SEVERAL YEARS NOW.
YOU HAVE NOT ADDRESSED EVEN ONE OF THE DOCTRINAL ERRORS THAT I HAVE RAISED. TO ME IT LOOKS YOU TAKEN SHELTER UNDER THE PRETEXT OF POINTING OUT MY PERSONAL ERRORS . YOU HAVE NOT EVEN ATTEMPTED TO ADDRESS EVEN ONE OF THE DOCTRINAL ERRORS OF TPM THAT I HAVE POINTED OUT. THEY ARE IRREFUTABLE.
I WOULD LIKE TO POINT OUT SOME OF THEM AGAIN:
1. ALL BUT ONE OF THE WRITERS OF THE EPISTLES IN THE N.T. HAVE GIVEN THEIR NAME AT THE OUT SET OF THEIR LETTERS. BUT DARE NOT GIVE THE AUTHORS NAME IN ANY ONE OF THEIR BOOKS. THEY HAVE JUST GOTTEN SO DEEP INTO THE HABIT OF TEACHING OR DOING EXACTLY WHAT THE BIBLE DOES OR SAYS.
THE REAL REASON IS THEY FULL WELL KNOW THAT THE CONTENTS OF THEIR BOOKS DO NOT HAVE THE SUPPORT OF THE SCRPTURES.
I REPEAT SOME OF MY EXAMPLES BEFORE IN ORDER TO PROVE MY POINT;
(a) About 80 years of its survival they have not wriitten one booklet or book expaining the why and how of the life of men and women living together under the same roof in the name of serving God ( faith HOME style life) , giving support from the Word of God.
When the Bible clearly says that the first century saints lived in their own homes , most of them with their own respective families how could you find any justification for the life where unmarried men and women living together under the same roof?.
Trust me, we do not read even in the church history that such a kind of life ever existed. It just came out of the fertile immagination of Pastor Alwin.
Our holy Lord Himself has declared ,” For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother and CLEAVE TO HIS WIFE” Faith home life was invented by the late Pasor Alwin as an attempt PREVENT and DESTROY God ordained Christian family life.
I say it is God ordained for our Lord Himself stated that HE is the on WHO JOINS THEM TOGETHER. That is why Cephas (Peter) and other apostles travelled with their respective wives where they went. And apostle Paul says he too had the RIGHT TO LEAD THE SAME KIND OF LIFE AND BE AN APOSTLE LIKE PETER. ( 1 Cor.(1 5&6)
If the late Pastor Paul , the founder of CPM and Pastor Manohar of N. India could live in their own houses and beget children , WHY NOT THE OTHER ” APOSTLES ‘ also do that?
If the “APOSTLES” of th Americas’ churches could live their wifes and children , why prevent the Indian and ceylonese pastors from leading such a life.
If taking medicine and communion is not an issue there , why should that become a big issue in India?
If the workers children of the TPM churches overseas could go for higer studies , why not the faith home children alone would not be allowed to beyone the school standard?
WOULD THE TPM “SAINTS” DARE TO WRITE A BOOK OR BOOKLET ANSWERING THESE KIND OF UNANSWERABLE ISSUES?
I COULD GO ON BUT IN INDIA WHERE I AM NOW IT IS NEARING ONE AM. Trust me I am very sleepy.
DAVID PAUL HAS WRITTEN A BOOK ” TO TPM WITH LOVE’
YOU MAY GET A SOFT COPY OF IT AT:
http://www.fgsfi-blogspot.com
George, I pray and believe that OUR lord will soon get you out of this mess ( A BUNDLE OF CONTRADICTIONS) called TPM.
Your brother in Christ
Daniel Manickam
Manickam,
I did not go to a corner instead I went to a Hospital; if you want to verify I would certainly help you with it. Before I write anything further I would like to tell you “Staying in TPM is my choice”. Thank you for your concern let me decide how and where to worship my God.
I learnt that you copied and pasted all most all your blogs from Paul David’s to TPM with love, it made me think you weren’t original in writing down your thoughts.
All your points evolve around
1. Married ministers are not allowed in TPM,
2. if a believer is on Medication No holy communion or no rapture,
3. 144000 saints are CPM workers,
4. Legalism (church rule just do it, or emphasis on do this don’t do that),
5. Alvin and his practices and
6. Rules differently being used in TPM (East and West).
maybe more …. You can list down later.
I am almost so negligent that I don’t even consider point number 1 to be worthwhile to argue, you know why I go to a TPM church where my Pastor and his wife live together. Few years ago, there were married people taken into full time ministry from Chennai.
Point number 2, As far as I know all my TPM church members’ have health insurance, In fact that’s their high priority; one of our old members has constantly been on medication, he was never denied holy communion, in fact when he is on medication and not able to come to church, My pastor goes to his house and serves holy communion. I was in hospital for a reason and I damn sure, If I am worthy in the sight of the Lord I am goanna have Holy Communion. So I don’t know why I have to spend time to reply for point number 2.
My pastor has been preaching that 144000 saints are not exclusively CPM workers. I don’t’ think I have to break my head to prove point number 3.
For point number 4, one of our other ministers has clearly mentioned and preached about the way God works in us, it’s all about his Grace not by our might and power, and he strongly condemns legalism in our church. I am so sure that nobody forces anything on me;
Number 5, who the heck is he?
I am open to argue on point number 6.
About your (in fact it’s not your point a stolen point) strong scriptural knowledge about “TPM’s Faith home system of unmarried sisters and brothers living together under the same roof”, you claim it is not mentioned in the Bible, Apparently you seek absolute and very specific instruction from the bible for everything, God just said multiply, he did not give specific instruction on how to have sex. Does it mean that Adam did not have Sex? It doesn’t matter you are under a roof or without roof, the purpose and intention was doing God’s work. Faith is the Key.
You said I don’t have scriptural knowledge, i dont feel the need to prove it because you are hasty and judgmental; the proof is that You called one of the bloggers ( gsr ) Himalayan liar, while you wrongly read his blog. You are so speedy that I could assume that you are a kid no more than 18 years old.
Again I remind you, it’s my business to stay in TPM or stay out of CPM.
Hi,
Being a TPM member myself, I am just curious to know if TPM church has done anything similar to this church that I am quoting down (I read this from Wikipedia).
“The church runs 2000 schools, 130 colleges and 104 hospitals in South India. In the 1960s the church became conscious of its social responsibility and started organising rural development projects. There are 50 such projects all over India, 50 training centres for young people and 500 residential hostels for a total of 35,000 children.”
Please understand that I am not raising this question to argue. If you have the correct answer please reply to this. If not, please do not. Do not fill this already overloaded blog with unfair comments.
Thanks.
ABAS,
IF I AM NOT WRONG, YOU ACCIDENTLY STUMBLED UPON THIS BLOG ON 12TH JUNE 2009,
on June 12, 2009 at 6:21 pm ABAS wrote
Jacob,
I am a TPM believer living in Canada. I accidentally stumbled upon this blog. Whenever, I come across a blog or article that discusses the doctrines/practices of TPM, I just read it out of curiosity to know what others think of us, but never respond or comment, for I know it will only lead to ungodly arguments not serving any divine purpose. It would be far better to spend ones time and energy for God in other fruitful ways like praying, evangelizing, etc. rather than stooping down to very cheap debates which will never save a single lost soul.
Yet, I respond to your comments this time, mainly to address a few grey areas in your postings, just to make sure others don’t get TPM wrong.
AND TODAY IS 12TH AUGUST 2009, (ONLY TWO MONTHS). THE WORDS BELOW ARE YOUR’S FROM YOUR POST ON 4TH AUGUST!!!
YOU SAY…
Finally, I turned to Jesus my Saviour for answers, Who very clearly spoke to me through His Word that TPM is a cult and that I should come out of it.
THIS IS A NICE U TURN FROM YOU. EVEN BEFORE A COMPLETION OF 2 FULL MONTHS YOU SAY THAT TPM IS A CULT, FOR WHICH YOU DEFENDED STRONGLY SOME 1.85 MONTHS BACK!!!!
WHAT DOES THIS SHOW ABOUT YOU????
SORRY, I STILL CANT STOP LAUGHING TO READ THAT JESUS CLEARLY SPOKE TO YOU THAT TPM IS A CULT!!!! AND THAT TOO CLEARLY THROUGH HIS WORD???? WHICH WORD OF GOD IN BIBLE SAYS THAT TPM IS A CULT??? CAN YOU PLEASE REFER THE PAGE AND CHAPTER TO ME??? I TOO WANT TO READ IT AND PERHAPS SHOW TO OTHER TPM BELIEVERS AND ALSO POSSIBLY TO OUR PASTORS!!!!
I GOT TO REMEMBER AN INCIDENT HAPPENED REALLY IN OUR CHURCH, SOMEWHERE IN 2004 – 2005. ONE AOG BELIEVER ACCIDENTLY CAME TO OUR TPM FAITHOME THINKING THAT IT IS AOG CHURCH. HE WAS WORKING IN RELIANCE AT A HIGH POST AND WAS THERE WITH US ATTENDING EVERY SUNDAY SERVICES FOR NEARLY 4-5 MONTHS. ONE SUNDAY THE WORKER-IN-CHARGE ASKED ABOUT HOW MANY BELIEVERS GET UP EARLY IN THE MORNING FOR (4:00AM) PRAISING.
THE VERY NEXT SUNDAY, THIS PERSON GOT UP AND TOLD IN HIS TESTIMONY THAT “I PRAYED TO THE LORD THAT I SHOULD GET UP EARLY BUT THEN JESUS CLEARLY TOLD ME TO BUY AN ALARM CLOCK”!!!!
THIS IS A REAL INCIDENT HAPPENED IN OUR CHURCH AND HIS NAME WAS SELVARAJ, FROM TAMILNADU. I DONT KNOW ABOUT HIS WHEREABOUT AS ON TODAY….
SIMILARLY, YOU TOO HAD BEEN CLEARLY TOLD BY JESUS. AND THAT TOO WITHIN 2 MONTHS TIME!!!
I HAD A DOUBT ON YOU FROM THE DAY ONE. FIRSTLY YOUR NAME.. ABAS … THE NAME ITSELF IS A MUSLIM NAME..
I AM 100% CONFIDENT THAT YOU WERE A NON-TPM FROM THE BEGINNING, INTRODUCING YOURSELF AS A TPM TO GET THE THINGS GOING AND THEN TAKING U TURN, SOMETHING SIMILAR TO WHAT ANTICHRIST WILL DO TO ISRAEL IN THE SECOND 3.5 GREAT TRIBULATION PERIOD…..
YOU MIGHT BE GOOD IN ENGLISH….I COMPLIMENT YOU ON THAT.. BUT UNFORTUNATELY THAT WOULD BE THE ONLY COMPLIMENT YOU WILL GET…
JACOB
Dear Bro Manickam,
I am really sorry that my last reply was untamed; I hope you would forget & forgive.
Though it was too late, I realize it’s unpleasant in the sight of God that we play tit for tat here.
I apologize if I have hurt anybody else. Please don’t think that I am trying to become too holy, I really felt that it’s totally unnecessary to gradually get enraged just because somebody’s faith is not according to how we have personally perceived or defined “FAITH”. I believe its personal choice. I read “To TPM with Love”, and I hope you read the replies from one of our pastors too. The word of God is not one sided (Heb 4:12), If you cut me with one side of it, I can use the other side of it to do the same. Now don’t think that I ran out of battery to defend TPM, I agree that there are few flaws, but please remember churches comprise not of computers, it’s a human network, error is always expected. I would not throw the computer but try to re install the software. None is perfect in this world.
Now, I write this to say that hereafter let’s (or at least me) try to spend time in fruitful things not in piercing each other for it doesn’t profit anything. I am amazed to learn a simple fact that all of us believe in Jesus, but we fight to prove who is adopting the best way to believe in him! Probably he feels sorry for all of us here, hope his enduring love will bind us all and help us see each other in his kingdom!
Let his (Jesus) name be glorified in everything!
Dear Biju,
Yes, The word of God is not for cuttuing each other, but it is cuts out wrong doctrines which I call Alwinism, and exposes them, as what the really are. Alwinism cuts bretheren from bretheren. It breeds a sense of superiority. Tpm is the perfect form of Pentecostalism for the Eastern mind. NO marriage(prefered) for workers. To the hindu mind this is a form of holiness. Lots go on behind the scenes, and a few get caught, if you get caught, all you get is a slap on the wrist, and a promotion in some cases. A simple life at least for the poor worker.
Wearing of white. On the surface it is well, good and acceptable. Unfortunately this does not seem to work in the West. TPM is a total failure in USA, and England, France and the rest of Europe. If there were no Indians, Srilankans, and a few others from other Eastern counties there will be no TPM churches in the west. Alwinism does not seem to work in the West. There are a lot of gullible Americans both black and white. Just had a call from one of my friends in New York. He was telling be that there are lot of black
workers just sitting around all day in the New Jersey, just like they do in many big F. Homes in India.
Where does it say in the Bible ‘Thou shall not smoke’ Yes the bible does not say CPM is a cult.
But the Bible does clearly speak about Alwinism.
Read Colosians 2:20-23. Verse 22. Doctrines of men (Alwinism) Except the basic doctrine of Salvation, all your other doctrines are Alwins personal revelations, which have not stood the Test of time. It Fails almost every day in your Faith homes around the world. Doctrines of Men.This is a clear reference to Alwins doctrines.
Alwin according to 1Tim 4:1 gave heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of the devil. N0 wonder he callied the opposite to what God calls, holy and undefiled, a defilement!! Alwin spoke lies in hypocrisy, having their concience seared with a hot iron(Brainwashed), forbidding to marry. Thousands of sincere and good men like you have to be delivered, and set free.
Whom the son sets free is free indeed.
I shall return !!!
Sam
Alwinism cuts bretheren from bretheren. It breeds a sense of superiority.
If you refer to TPM doctrines by the term ‘Alwinism’ then it doesn’t. Its humility and and servanthood that TPM promotes and not superiority in any form. But obviously a doctrine which focuses on these will be superior to which doesn’t promote these values.
NO marriage(prefered) for workers. To the hindu mind this is a form of holiness.
The Bible also praises the virtue of remaining unmarried for the sake of Christ. In fact it does attach a certain level of holiness to it
“The UNMARRIED woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be HOLY BOTH IN BODY AND IN SPIRIT: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.” (1 Cor 7:34)
Bro. Sam Alan please explain to me the meaning of this verse especially the words in upper case. Please don’t give your own private interpretation to it. I just need to hear from you what these words mean literally.
TPM is a total failure in USA, and England, France and the rest of Europe.
Please give a list of churches originated in the East and is more successful than TPM in the West. Please don’t use these kind of seemingly good, but logically bankrupt statements.
Not only TPM, Christianity as whole and Pentecostalism in specific is not doing good in the West. Much of West is turning atheist, agnostic and non-religious. Many are converting to Islam and other New Age religions.
In the Protestant Christian majority USA 4 out of 10 children are born out of wedlock according to statistical reports. Divorce and remarriage are highest among Protestants and Pentecostals. (Source: Adherents.com)
So if you say TPM is failure, that’s because we are not trying to propagate the form of religion that is prevalent there and we are proud of it. Quality does matter rather than quantity.
— to be continued
Dear bloggers,
The following is the data from Wikipedia for another major church in india. I am curious to know whether the TPM church since its inception in 1923 (86 years) took any strides towards socioeconomic objectives.
Educational Institutions
* Kindergartens/Nursery Schools: 3,785
* Primary Schools: 7,319
* Secondary Schools: 3,765
* Colleges: 240
* Medical/Nursing Schools/Colleges: 28
* Engineering Colleges: 5
Social Welfare Activities
* Technical Training Schools/Polytechnics: 1,524
* Hostels/Boarding Houses: 1,765
* Orphanages: 1,085
* Creches: 228
* Hospitals: 704
* Dispensaries/Health Centres: 1,792
* Leprosaria: 111
* Rehabilitation Centres: 102
* Homes for Aged, Destitutes & Physically challenged: 455
If you are aware that TPM has made inroads into any of these areas, please let me know.
Thanks.
dear chelraj,
first of all i doubt that you are a tpm, as you claim. Instead of worrying on all these matters, why dont you think whether your entire family is saved…irrespective of tpm, ipc, sharon, aog etc.
thereafter think of your neighbours and villagers….i am 100% sure that at least 5 of your neighbours would be unsaved. Even if they are converted from Hindus or Muslims to roman catholic through you, it would be a great achievement….!!!!
instead of wasting time to know what tpm did in the last 86 years, why cant you judge yourself about what you did in the last 35-40 years (I dont know your age)
secondly let me know whether any of these institutions you named is run as a charitable trust or as a non-profitalbe organization.
my reply to you will follow.
take care
jacob
If you are aware that TPM has made inroads into any of these areas, please let me know.
The data you have given is that of the Church of South India (CSI) which is an Episcopal church. TPM being an evangelical Pentecostal church differs greatly from CSI in its vision and mission. Hence except a few Faith Schools in different parts of the world and giving financial help to a few missionary societies TPM has not endeavoured (or even purpose to endeavour) into any of the above mentioned socioeconomic objectives.
I am very eager to know if there is any rough estimate on the number of people which CSI has led to Christ (probably from the number of adult baptisms it has given).
And I believe Jesus Christ hasn’t commissioned the church for any of the above mentioned objectives, but only to preach, make disciples and baptize them.
Read Colosians 2:20-23. Verse 22. Doctrines of men (Alwinism)
When you read the chapter in context Paul is dealing with the DOs and DON’Ts being promoted by Judaizers in an attempt to tie the faith with the Law.
“Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:…” (Colo 2:16)
This verse is not an excuse for doing things that are sinful or can lead to sin.
Dear Jacob
I totally agree with you. Nice answer. Please pray for me that I do not get tempted to visit this blog ever again.
Thanks.
Our Father, who art in heaven
hallowed be thy Name,
thy kingdom come,
thy will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread
And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those
who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom,
and the power, and the glory,
for ever and ever.
Amen.
Jacob
You keep repeating the same lie over and over that I was never a TPM member. You say, you had this doubt from day one and now you are 100% confident that I was a non-TPM from the beginning. In fact, you have gone one step further now, to declare that I am a ‘MUSLIM’ – this is completely unwarranted. While it is not wrong to judge or come to a conclusion about a person, it is certainly a GRAVE SIN to do this in haste in the absence of evidences or witnesses. I could quote scriptures here, but this is such a rudimentary teaching of Christianity that one need not be a Pentecostal to know this! Yet, you chose to judge me, when in actual fact you don’t know anything about me, not even my name!
If you had any doubt about my integrity at any point, you could have requested me to identify myself. I would have very gladly done that, as I have absolutely nothing to hide and I am a genuine Christian discussing vey genuine issues here for the benefit of many (including me).
My name is Andrew Bhaskar. I blog under the name ‘ABAS’, a word coined with the first letter of my first name (Andrew) and the first syllable of my last name (BhASkar). I use this not for the purpose of anonymity, but to be identified with a unique name to avoid any identity crisis. The name Andrew is so common, that if someone with the same name posts something on this blog site, it may create identity confusion to the other bloggers. So, I thought ‘ABAS’ would eliminate this problem, but how wrong I was, some cheat with low ethics and moral values violated my identity to post a comment on July 17 under my blog name ‘ABAS’. To my surprise, Rachel Chitra confirmed that this post originated from one of your IP addresses – what an irony!
Before moving to Canada in the year 2001, I was a member of TPM Bangalore center faithhome in Frazer Town from 1981 (late Pastor Pathrose) to 1986 (late Pastor M.O. George). In January 1987 I got married and moved to Coimbatore. From 1987 (late Pastor Bobby) to 2001 (Pastor Y. Thomas, who is now center pastor of Ernakulum), my family and I were members of TPM Coimbatore center faithhome on Addis street. For several years I played the Accordion and Keyboard in this church. I was known as Bro. Bhaskar in the church and had a good testimony from the workers and believers of that time. You may check my credentials with any believer (who is a member since 2001) from Coimbatore faithhome, or, you may call Pastor Y. Thomas to inquire about me (just mention the name Bro. Bhaskar who was the lead musician in Coimbatore faithhome during his tenure). If you are not convinced with any of these and still think I was never a TPM member or I am a Muslim, just let me know, I will email you documentary evidence (such as Marriage Certificate issued by the church). I can only go so far to establish my identity (which is not required in any case) and if you are still not convinced, I cannot help it. This is a clear case of a person pretending to be asleep; sorry, no one can wake him up!
Now that you know my identity, I hope you will stop calling me (and others) ‘FRAUD TPM’, ‘CHEAP BELIEVER’, ‘CHEAP SOUL’, ‘MUSLIM’, etc. and focus on real issues. If I had blogged under the name ‘George Thomas’ or ‘Joyce Mary’ and supported TPM, it may have satisfied your palate and you would have judged me differently! But, this would have been far from the truth. Truth gets treated unfairly and unjustly – do you see the irony? Don’t judge a person by his name; rather judge him by the content of his writing. Restrain your tendency to exercise authority over other bloggers and intimidate them by calling names, especially those posing uncomfortable questions on TPM. You should remember that the title of this blog site is ‘TPM – Spinning a Yarn for a Living’ and I hope you understand the meaning of this. Anyone visiting this site should expect tough questions/comments from bloggers on some of the unscriptural/questionable practices and doctrines of TPM. If you can stomach this and provide scripturally sound answers, stay on, or else, quit this site (you are at the wrong place). Don’t get upset over the questions (or the bloggers) and resort to unscrupulous methods of defense, you will only be an annoyance to the other bloggers. There are other blog sites singing praises of TPM, you should go there (you will feel at home).
I will stop here for now as I am leaving to Mexico tonight on a business trip. I will post my reply to your other comments very soon.
Andrew Bhaskar
Gsr
That was Pauls personal opinion. There are many dedicated , married and they are holy. Marrige is considered holy and the bed undefiled. You have heard this oever and oever again. Brainwashed people never seem to get it. You could be one of them.
Other churches from the East are doing real well.
They have fellowships and not churchwes nto spread their form of doctrine. The Moonies are doing real well. It is a cult.
One can be holy wether married or unmarried. We are all holy and perfect as god sees us. You cannit add to what god has completed in Christ.
TPM holiness is based on works and not on grace. I have been there.
You guys will bring honor and glory to god if you mobilze all the workers in the FHs to go around the cities of Chennai, and clean up the whole place. What have you done to the poor the sick, the abandoned. All you do is get people saved and strap them with all you legalism, and Alwinism.
My Church, the Pentecoostal asemblies of Canada is growing by the day. We have over a thousand churches. You guys should be preaching Christ instead Alwinism, in the West.
God will be glorified if you guys build a hospital for the sick and homes for the neglected. You HAVE THE RESOURCES. Alwin boasted that we do not have bank accounts. Now you have billions invested in real estate. Apostles had nothing to call their own. I am an ex CPM boy, who has seen through all your hypcrosy. So it is pointless bombarding me with the virtues of TPM. Time to stop talking. Let the walk begin with you.
I shall return.
Sam.
Jacob,
On July 2, 2009 you said:
“I am JACOB again. I was on a tour for nearly a month and so could not respond. When I came back, I see lot of posts which are on my name!!!! This is strange!!!! I read the whole passage which took 3 full hours to find that my name has been used to spread venomous doctrines.”
You claim that a fake ‘Jacob’ misused your identity to post a lot of blogs. Alright, would you come clean to let me know the dates of all those posts that are not yours?
In the same July 2, 2009 post, you also said:
“Though I have not written anything of that sort, I accept 25% of the things expressed by the so-called-JACOB, whosoever he may be. But 75% is not acceptable to me. I could not understand whether he was defending TPM Doctrines or opposing TPM Doctrines.”
Would you identify the 25% views expressed by the fake ‘Jacob’ that you too endorse as TPM’s position on marriage?
Andrew Bhaskar
why the TPMin india not come forward to debate or spread Bible words to non belivers.
why pastors & sisters of TPM (coles road & geddalahalli)bangalore karnataka in india. are very cruel and not spreading christ gospal to non belivers.and why thy not come forward to bedate with islamist mad man zakir naik.
why TPM churh in bangalore & tamilnadu using anti social men to silence . those who want bedate with their doctrine. is this so called, appostle doctrine.
Dear Abas,
Okay on your identity. I feel sorry for my words. But if you were in my shoes, you too would had thought the same way considering the fact that a person who came to this blog to defend tpm, as you did in the first few posts and then within 2 months taking a U turn to say that Jesus personally appeared to you saying TPM is a cult and that too from the scriptures was something funny!!!!…I could not digest it….
Anyway, it is nice to know that you were a tpm member in the past.
I still would like to hear from you more about the “TPM IS A CULT” revelation which you got directly from Jesus through scriptures!!! It would be an intersting matter and a new learning subject for me and also to our TPM Workers and Believers….
Also a suggestion to you against what You said in your previous last post
quote
I was known as Bro. Bhaskar in the church and had a good testimony from the workers and believers of that time. You may check my credentials with any believer (who is a member since 2001) from Coimbatore faithhome, or, you may call Pastor Y. Thomas to inquire about me (just mention the name Bro. Bhaskar who was the lead musician in Coimbatore faithhome during his tenure). unquote
My first reaction is that you said, you HAD a good testimony. This means, you dont have it now!!!! My second response is as below
Read the bible and you will know that there are only three that are official witness on earth, valid in heaven. 1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit,and the water, and the blood.
No Chief Pastor’s witness, No Centre Pastor’s testimony, nor of any believer or any person is considered in heaven. All of these can be bought out either by money, or by creamy words etc etc. All of them are human beings and will never know my reality. I can hide everything before them to get a good compliment.
Why you left TPM is because you desired a good testimony from these people, who themselves have no authority to issue a witness or credential certificates, valid in heaven. You kept your standard low by accepting good testimonies from all those persons you mentioned. Once you saw them failing, it shook you and changed your thoughts.
For your information, I played in the lap of late Pas. C K Lazarus and late Pas. P M Thomas who were our Cheif Pastors, Late Pas. T U Thomas knew me personally by name, Pas. Wesley know me by name, I have a very very close and freindly relationship with our current Centre Pastor, etc, etc, but none of these credibility will take me to heaven……They too are in the same queue. I am not delighted nor contented with their testimonies. All of them are human beings and can err. So even if they err and fall or do something immoral, it do not change my position or my thinking. I will not be shaken, since the bible says that all these things should happen in end times.. I keep myself above from all these things….and this is also taught in TPM….
Also, please refer to my post dated aug 13th to Chelraj. There you can see that I have not emphasised on TPM….So, by this you can understand that I am not a brain washed TPM Member, as you all blame…
You left TPM for some other church. Do you think that the church you are in now, is a perfect church???
Tell me what will you do, if you find something wrong there?? Will you go for a third one???
And I assure you that you will definetly find something wrong everywhere unless you grow above all these things……
You left TPM, nothing has reduced in TPM. You are in AOG Church now, nothing has increased there. Even if you leave that church, nothing would be reduced either…
ITS ONLY YOUR PERSONAL LIFE WITH JESUS…either getting better or worse…. Think on this….
By the way, I personally percieve that TPM has a better level and standard than all other denominations in christianity, if understood properly. I repeat, IF UNDERSTOOD PROPERLY…
Regards
JACOB
ABAS,
Regarding the wrong posts on my name, I need to check all of them which I will do, once I have free time.
About my 25% of acceptable views is also referred by GSR on Aug 13. Please read the post and mainly the above few lines.
Regards
JACOB
Hi Bro. Sam Alan,
Thanks for your response. Though you haven’t made any Scriptural arguments, I would like to point out the serious flaws in your arguments.
That was Pauls personal opinion.
Doesn’t it mean that it is not God’s Word for you? It is sad to see these days that those who claim to be born again and pentecostals hold to the Islamic idea that the entire Bible is not the Word of God, but it just contains some Words of God. I’m so sad to see you in this group.
“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:” (2 Tim 3:16)
Please let me know if 1 Cor 7 will come under the umbrella of “all Scripture”.
You seem to be lacking the basic idea regarding the inspiration of Scripture. All Scripture is inspired by God and is revealed by His Spirit even when the authors were not aware of it. If you read the beginning verses of the Gospel according to Luke, it is clear that he was considering it just as his personal letter to Theophilus and he is not mentioning anything about being inspired. But still its the Word of God and perhaps Luke may have never known it while he was writing it.
Similary even when at time when Paul says “not the Lord, but I” its still the Word of God. Moreover doesn’t say this for the entire chapter but for a few verses. He says it first in 1 Cor 7:12. But the fact is that he is telling this about guidelines regarding divorce.
“But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.” (1 Cor 7:12)
Isn’t it ironic that those who despise celibacy as the opinion of Paul use the above verse to formulate their doctrine regarding divorce and marriage relationship with unbelievers where Paul specifically says “speak I, not the Lord” whereas he doesn’t say it about celibacy?
Moreover Paul uses such language very often in his writings,
“Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.” (Gala 5:2)
Does this mean that this verse is also Paul’s opinion?
Again finally, even if you say its Paul’s opinion what makes you think that your opinion holds more than Paul’s opinion? Or are you suggesting that the Apostle to whom the major portion of NT was revealed had an opinion contradictory to the Scriptures?
Or was Paul also preaching Alwinism? So unless and until you provide a satisfactory answer to these, Paul’s arguments for holiness in relation to celibacy stands
“The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.” (1 Cor 7:34)
There are many dedicated, married and they are holy. Marrige is considered holy and the bed undefiled. You have heard this oever and oever again.
Contrary to what you may be thinnking, I do not dispute any of these. Neither does the TPM church. When TPM preaches to present every man perfect in Christ Jesus it inlcudes a majority of married men and women. So I would emphasize that marriage in general is holy and the bed undefiled and there are many who are married and holy.
But what you and the rest of the non-TPM evangelicals fail to understand is the fact that the concepts of holiness, defilement etc. are relative and is directly linked to a person’s call. If you are called for a family life, then marriage doesn’t defile you and is indeed a blessing for you. But what if you are called to be a celibate? Would you be holy and undefiled if you despise that call and get married? The answer is an emphatic NO.
Let us search the Scriptures to see if the defition for holiness and defilement is same for all or is it directly linked to a person’s call.
– The Old Testament prophets are addressed as “holy prophets” in Luke 1:70, Acts 3:21, 2 Peter 3:2 and Revelation 22:6. When the Scripture says they are holy it means it. Even the NT which describes all believers as holy and saints, acknowledges that the OT prophets are holy. But we know from the Scriptures that many of them like Abraham, David etc. were polygamists. Since they were polygamous and is still mentioned in the Scriptures as holy, can we also practise polygamy as it didn’t defile them? I do not think Bro. Sam Alan would give a positive reply to this. Why is it not holy for us? For a simple reason, we have a different call than their’s and our standard for holiness and defilement is different.
– Lets see another example. In the OT times wine was a common drink and its abundance is described as a blessing of God. (Deut 7:13; Deut 11:14; Nehe 5:18; Jere 40:12; Joel 1:10) But for Samson it was a defilement (Judges 13). Why? Because his calling was different.
Though by these two examples it is clear that holiness and defilement depends on a person’s call let us address more closely the issue at hand – that is marriage. Is it holy and undefiling for all irrespective of their calling or can it defile some? We’ll see what the Scripture has to tell regarding this.
Paul gives certain instructions in 1 Cor 7 regarding remarriage of widows,
“The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.” (1 Cor 7:39)
In this verse Paul gives the widow full right to marry whomever she wishes, the only contraint being that he must be a believer. Now Paul says a seemigly contradictory statement concerning widows in 1 Timothy 5. Here is what he says,
“As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry. Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge.” (1 Tim 5:11,12)
Here he uses some strong words against them getting married. Why is he saying this after condoning their marriage in 1 Cor 7? Again its simple, their calling is different. It is clear from the context that 1 Tim 5 is dealing with those chosen for ministry. Following facts can be seen in this verse.
– Those who are chosen for ministry must take a pledge of celibacy
– After that if they desire to marry it is because “their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ”.
– If they do so they “bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge”.
So it is clear that for the widows mentioned in 1 Timothy 5 marriage is neither holy nor undefiling.
Now from Matt 19:12 and 1 Cor 7:7 it is clear that there are many who are called for a celibate life. For such people who are called for such a life and who are called to Zion marriage can indeed be defiling, as it leads them to despise their call.
This is where TPM gives the perfect doctrine whereas the other Pentecostals gives a doctrine that is imperfect though not wrong. The latter generalizes the doctrine of holy matrimony and prevents thousands of believers from recognising their call to celibacy.
Earlier in this discussion you tried to represent the TPM doctrine incorrectly and gave an impression that accroding to TPM the the only or main qualification for Zion is celibacy. But its not. TPM doctirne makes it clear that what qualifies a person for Zion is the divine call in his life and that consecration and celibacy are only a natural response to this call. For such a person who has this call marriage can defile since he despises his call by entering into marriage. Hence the major differentior here is the call and not celibacy though celibacy naturally follows it.This is how the doctrine of 144K on Zion of TPm stands even without contradicting Hebrews 13:4.
Regarding this call the Scripture states “And of Zion it shall be said, This and that man was born in her: and the highest himself shall establish her.” (Psal 87:5)
Hence lets put everything in its right context and proper place. Marriage is indeed holy and the bed undefiled if you are called for a family life. If that is your call get married and enjoy your companionship. But let it be clear like a drum beat that any level sanctity and blessedness that we associate with married life is directly proportional to the amount of time and attention that husband and wife dedicate for each other and according to the Scriptures and according to common sense it will surely take away your undistracted devotion to the Lord (1 Cor 7:34). Hence its better to make your calling and election sure before getting married. If you are called for a higher life, to a life of undistracted devotion to the Lord, to the blessedness of following the Lamb wherever he goes, to Zion the perfection of beauty from where God shines then do not despise your call and defile yourself. Gladly accept it while keeping in mind that you are not called because you are qualified but qualified because you are called; its all His sovereign choice and grace and no of yourself.
(I will address these issues in detail in my reply to Dr.David Paul, which I hope will be ready soon by God’s grace)
GSR
READ RACHAEL VARGHESE’S LETTER GIVEN BELOW
on January 26, 2009 at 2:23 pm rachel varghese
SISTER VS A WIFE?
An apostle needs no permission to take a sister to work along with him. That is why we see Paul the apostle had many sisters who worked with him in the ministry. Eg. Phoebe (Rom 16:1), Tryphosa, Tryphena, Persis (Rom 16:12),
However, in 1 Corinthians 9:5, Paul claims his authority to marry. Why? Because the other apostles also were married. No apostle renounced their marriage life because Jesus said, “What God has joined together let not man put asunder”. Jesus commanded to renounce marriage & property only if the wife or property hindered the husband from following Jesus and thus gain eternal life (Matt 19:29).
However, TPM falsely teaches to renounce marriage before doing ministry. Bible nowhere says that celibacy is a prerequisite to be an apostle. That was the fabrication of Pas. Alwin.
That is why Pastor Manohar, Pastor Joseph lived with their wife and had children born in the faith home just like Pastor Paul the founder. Because Pastor Paul was not from a catholic background but was a catechist in a Baptist church where Pastors marry.
Pastor Alwin celibacy doctrine from Catholicism and Buddhism which was prevalent in Ceylon. This Alwin committed adultery in France faith home and was excommunicated in India.
People who do not know the above keep bragging about celibacy consecration and about the TPM pastors instead of bragging about Jesus Christ.
Such people display zeal for TPM workers and not for Christ.
Dear Gsr,
Good to hear fro you, and thanks.
So you conclude from Pau’ls saying (1Cor 7:34) that all married women are not holy in body, spirit, and that they only care for the things of the world, and he only aim in life is to please her husband? You need to meet people (married pastors wives)
1 Cor 7:26 I suppose that it is good for the present distress. We are not living in close confines, like they did in the catacoombs due to persecution. 1cor 7:29 The time is short. Paul said this almost two thousand years ago.
Could you please explain Heb 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all and the bed undefiled?
To Alwin marriage was nothing but SEX. I will not use the crude way he put it to me about marriage, when I was an innocent teenager.
I Shall return, to defend the Faith that was once delivered to the saints, and expose Alwinism to
the best of my ability’
Sam
GSR.
I WAS NEVER IN TPM AND I THANK GOD FOR THAT. BUT I AM A PETECOSTAL MAN.
In your letter to Sam Alan you have stated;
EVEN WHEN AT TIMES WHEN PAUL SAYS ” NOT THE LORD, BUT I ‘ IT IS STILL THE WORD OF GOD.
WHAT YOU HAVE WRITTEN CONTRADICTS THE HOLY WORD OF GOD.
IN 1 COR. 7: 12 APOSTLE PAUL HIMSELF SAYS GOD DID NOT SAY THIS ( “NOT THE LORD”) HOW DARE YOU WRITE ITS THE WORD OF GOD?
YOU ARE CONTRADICTING WHAT THE APOSTLE HAS WRITTEN IN THE WORD OF GOD AND I REPEAT,” NOT THE LORD , BUT I”.
DELIBERATELY CONTRADICTING THE WORD OF GOD COULD EASILY BECOME BLASPHEMY. PLEASE WATCH OUT OF WHAT YOU WRITE. THANKS.
THE APOSTLE REPEATS THIS STATEMENT IN EFFECT IN VERSE 25 OF THE SAME CHAPTER . Vs. 25. “I HAVE NO COMMANDMENT OF THE LORD . YET I GIVE MY JUDGEMENT.”
AGAIN MY BROTHER, THE APOSTLE CATEGORICALLY STATES HERE THAT HE DID NOT HEAR FROM THE LORD BUT THAT HE GIVES HIS OWN OPINION. THIS IS WHAT THE BIBLE DECLARES AND YOU MUST NOT TRY TO REFUTE IT.
UNLIKE ANY ONE OF THE CHAPTERS WRITTEN BY APOSTLE PAUL HE WRITES IN THIS CHAPTER REPEATEDLY ( THREE TIMES TO BE PRCISE) THAT HE DID NOT HEAR FROM THE LORD BUT GIVES HIS OWN OPINION.
HE ALSO GIVES THE REASON WHY HE GIVES HIS PERSONAL OPINION. WE NEED TO KNOW THAT THE CHURCH AT THAT TIME WAS UNDERGOING UNTOLD PERSECUTION UNDER THE CRUEL HANDS OF NERO AND THE CHRISTIANS WERE SCATTERED ALL OVER. IT SIMPLY MEANS THEY LEFT EVERY THING AND RAN AWAY TO SAVE THEIR LIVES. THEY WERE LIVING IN CATACOMBS. ( UNDERGROUND TUNNELS) NATURALLY PAUL GIVES HIS OWN VIEWS TO HELP THE BELIEVERS TO COPE UP WITH THAT UNUSUAL SITUATION.
SO THE APOSTLE WRITES,”BECAUSE OF THE PRESENT CRISIS I THINK ( INPLYING IT IS NOT GOD’S COMMANDMENT)THAT IT IS GOOD FOR YOU TO REMAIN AS YOU ARE .”VS.26.
THE EXAMPLE THAT YOU HAVE GIVEN TO SUPPORT YOU VIEW IS TO SAY THE LEAST IS NOT SUITABLE AT ALL. FOR IN GAL. 5:2 THE APOSTLE SAYS, ” I PAUL SAY UNTO YOU ” . HE NEVER SAYS THE LORD DID NOT SAY THIS BUT I SAY UNTO YOU AS HE WRITES IN 1 COR. CHAPTER SEVEN.
WITH WARM CHRISTIAN REGARDS.
DAVID RAJ
Hi Gsr & Jacob
Would you mind mailing your email adderss to me at mywasteemails@yahoo.com (will mail you back from my original id later)
Thanks
GSR
“The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.” (1 Cor 7:34)
THANKS FOR QUOTING THE ABOVE VERSE IN ONE OF YOUR LETTERS.
FOR THIS IS VERY TRUE.EVERY MARRIED MAN AND WOMAN KNOWS THAT HE OR SHE IS VERY MUCH ATTACHED TO THE FAMILY. WE KNOW IT BY EXPERIENCEA AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THE WORD SAYS HERE.
OUR LORD KNOWS THIS VERY WELL AND THAT IS HOW THE LORD WANTS IT TO BE.
THAT WHY THE WORD SAYS THAT ONE WHO IS TO BE IN THE PASTORAL MINISTRY ( BISHOP OR PASTOR), DEACON AND ELDER MUST BE A MARRIED PERSON TAKING GOOD CARE OFHIS WIFE AND CHILDREN. ( NOT LEAVING THE FAMILY AS TPM TEACHES) ( 1 TIM. 3; 2, 4&5, 3; 12 AND TITUS 1:5& 6)
THAT IS WHY THE BIBLE SAYS ,” IF ANY PROVIDE NOT FOR HIS OWN, AND SPECIALLY FOR THOSE OF HIS OWN HOUSE, HE HATH DENIED THE FAITH, AND IS WORSE THAN AN INFIDEL.” ( 1 TIM. 5: 8)
YOUR BROTHER IN CHRIST
DAVID RAJ
GSR
IN ONE OF YOUR LETTERS YOU HAVE WRITTEN:
NO marriage(prefered) for workers. To the hindu mind this is a form of holiness.
AS ONE ONE WHO HAS STUDIED HINDU PHILOSOPY AT A HIGH LEVEL IN ONE OF THE BEST UNIVERSITIES OF INDIA, I AGREE WITH WHAT YOU HAVE WRITTEN .
IN FACT HINDUISM STATES THAT ONLY ‘BRAMACHARIYAS’
( LIKE THE TPM WORKERS) COULD TEACH THE VEDAS.
THE BUDDHIST MONKS BELIEVE UNMARRIED LIFE IS A HOLY LIFE ( AS TPM BELIEVES) AND THEY PRACTISE IT VERY ARDENTLY . SO ARE THE PRIESTS OF JAINISM AND THE FATHERS, BROTHERS AND NUNS OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH BELIEVE AND PRACTICE SO TOO.
THESE ARE GOOD BED FELLOWS OF THE TPM CULT.
THE BIBLE NEVER SAYS EVEN ONCE THAT A FULL TIME MINISTER MUST TAKE THE VOW OF CELIBECY.
ON THE OTHER HAND THE BIBLE DECLARES THAT WHO ARE ENGAGED IN PASTORAL MINISTRY MUST BE MARRIED AND TAKE GOOD CARE OF THEIR FAMILIES.
DANIEL
Dear GSR,
You have written that you are going to reply to Dr. David Paul.
“I will address these issues in detail in my reply to Dr.David Paul, which I hope will be ready soon by God’s grace.”
I WONDER WHY YOU WROTE LIKE THIS. DR. PAUL HAS NOT PARTICPATED IN OUR DEBATE.
HOW COULD YOU REPLY TO HIM WHEN HE HAS NOT WRITTEN ONE LETTER TO THIS ONLINE DEBATE?
BLESSINGS.
2. IN ONE OF YOUR LETTERS YOU HAVE WRITTEN THAT THE PASTOR OF THE TPM CHURCH THAT YOU ATTEND IN BANGALORE IS A MARRIED PERSON WHO LIVES WITH HIS WIFE. YOU HAVE ALSO MENTIONED HE GOT MARRIED IN CHENNAI.
THIS IS INCREDIBE. I SHALL BE GRATEFUL TO YOU IF YOU COULD KINDLY GIVE ME HIS NAME AND THE FAITH HOME HE PASTORS IN BANGALORE.
THANKS
DAVID
DAVID
GSR
IN ONE OF YOUR LETTERS YOU HAVE STATED:
” I would emphasize that marriage IN GENERAL is holy and the bed undefiled and there are many who are married and holy.”
WHAT A BIG MISS !!
NO WHERE IN THE BIBLE DO WE READ THAT MARRIAGE ” in general” IS HOLY AND UNDEFILED.
BUT TPM WANTS TO INSERT THE WORD ” IN GENERAL’ THERE. ( BUT THE HOLY SEEMS TO HAVE MISSED THE WORDS in general. !!!
MAY BE WHEN CONSECRETED SAINTS OF GOD LIKE THE LATE PASTOR ALWIN OR THE PRESENT CENTRAL PASTOR P.V. MATTEW OF TIRUPATI FASTED AND PRAYED GOD MUST HAVE REAVEALED THAT THE WORD “in general’ be inserted.
THE BIBLE DECLARES THAT MARRIAGE IS HONOURABLE UNTO ALL ( NOT MANY) AND THE BED DEFILED .( HEB. 12: 4)
ALL MARRIAGE BED ARE UNDEFILED FOR THE FOLLOWING BIBILICAL REASONS:
1. IT WAS OUR MOST HOLY GOD WHO INSTITUTED MARRIAGE. ( GEN. 2: 22)
SO ALL MARRIAGES OUGHT TO BE HOLY.
2. AND GOD DID NOT INSTITUTE IT AFTER THE FALL OF MAN BUT BEFORE OF MAN. NOT AT A TIME WHEN ADAM FELL INTO SIN BUT BEFORE THE FALL.
AT THE TIME WHEN GOD ARRANGED A WIFE FOR ADAM , HE WAS SINLESSLY PERFECT .
3. OUR HOLY GOD WOULD NOT HAVE PURPOSED TO GET ADAM ” DEFILED’ BY GETTING HIM MARRIED.
IF MARRIAGE HAD A DOT OF DEFILEMENT , GOD COULD NOT AND WOULD NOT HAVE GOT ADAM MARRIED , FOR AT THAT TIME ADAM WAS PERFECT .
THE MARRIAGE ARRANGED AND INSTITUTED FOR ADAM WAS HOLY FOR THE HOLY GOD SOLEMNIZED IT .
ALL CHRISTIAN MARRIAGES ARE SOLEMNIZED BY OUR HOLY GOD HIMSELF. FOR MT. 19: 6 DECLARES ,” WHOM GOD HAS JOINED TOGETHER —-“.
AGAIN, OUR HOLY GOD JOINS TOGETHER TWO PERSONS IN HOLY MATRIMONY – IT CANNOT BE FOR THE PURPOSE OF DEFILEMENT. THERE CANNOT BE ANYTHING IMPURE OR UNHOLY IN IT.
SO, PLEASE DO NOT SAY THAT MARRIAGES in genral ARE HOLY BUT ARE ALWAYS HOLY FOR IT IS OUR HOLY GOD WHO INSTITUTED IT BEFORE MAN EVER FELL INTO SIN.
DAVID
Dear Daniel,
Again you proved, that you are a harebrained !
Please read carefully, Gsr did not say NO marriage(prefered) for workers. To the hindu mind this is a form of holiness., he is quoting what Sam Alan said.
GSR’s interpretation of The Bible to enforce celibacy on ministry only proves the following point of Dr. Ray (posted under the name Churchmouse) as follows:
(TPM) use “eisegesis” to determine Scripture. In other words, they take their own preconceived notions and read it back into Scripture.
Thanks.
Greetings and salutations Dear George,
I trust you recognize me by my name. You made a couple of intellectually rigorous points that in my view were not adequately addressed by the respondents; hence, I am availing myself to the opportunity to propound my views on these issues for everyone’s due consideration.
1. Daniel Manickam had made the assertion that unmarried men and women permanently living under the same roof for doing the ministry cannot be substantiated by Scripture.
I associate myself with the first paragraph of your reply on August 4, 2009. However, Acts 1:13 &14 cannot be adduced in support of faith home lifestyle. Let me explain. Jesus specifically instructed the apostles not to depart Jerusalem, but to wait there for the promise of the Father (Acts 1:4). Thus, the 11 disciples, Jesus’ mother, His brothers, the women, and others came to the house they were temporarily staying and went to the upstairs room to wait for the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:13 &14).
First, the term women has been translated as “with their wives” referring to the wives of the apostles. We know Peter or Cephas, the brothers of Jesus: James, Joses, Simon, and Judas, and the remaining apostles were married (1 Cor 9:5). Hence, we may reasonably conclude that the apostles and other men were with their wives. Nevertheless, this does not preclude a few unmarried people in the group either.
Second, the instruction Jesus gave was a one time specific instruction that applied only to them to receive the Holy Spirit. This (upper) house was not their permanent abode. This passage cannot be generalize and applied to support unmarried men and women permanently cohabiting for gospel ministry. It is important to note that some instructions in the bible are only applicable to a certain group of people at a certain time but are inapplicable to other generations. For example, in the Old Testament, God instructed the Jews to destroy all the idols and kill all the inhabitants of certain cities. That was applicable to the Jews of that time. If we were to incorrectly generalize that, you Christians in India must destroy all the Hindu idols. Again, we understand that some instructions in the bible cannot be generalized across time and people. Hence, Acts 1:13 & 14 cannot be adduced in favor of FH lifestyle.
During the early days of TPM, the rooms of men and women were adjacent to each other. However, I hear that the architecture of the new FHs provide separation for the women’s quarters from the men’s, which is a great improvement.
2. On August 24, 2009 at 3:38pm you expressed your disapproval of Sam Alan’s statement that Apostle Paul’s teaching of celibacy in 1 Cor 7 was his personal opinion on the grounds that Sam’s statement violated 2 Tim 3:16.
Sam’s statement did not violate 2 Tim 3:16 by any stretch of the imagination. The bible has opinions of the authors (1 Cor 7:12, 25) , it has expressed instruction of the Holy Spirit (1 Tim 4:1-3), it has the words of devils (Mat 4:6, mark 5:9,10), it records lies, hypocrisy, immorality, etc. All these scriptures are given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:” (2 Tim 3:16).
Incidentally, in advocating celibacy, St. Paul clearly states that it is his opinion and not a command of the lord; hence, we must give it the due recognition. However, when the same apostle Paul says that it is the express instruction of the Holy Spirit that forbidding marriage to clergy or laity is a doctrine of devils and seducing spirits, we must apply the highest level of scrutiny to any doctrine that may border on stipulating celibacy. To conclude, we must give appropriate weight to Apostle Paul’s opinion and the express instruction of the Holy Spirit in a holistic manner.
3. Allow me to offer my comment on 1 Cor 7:14. “The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.”
The word holy is used in this context to refer to a condition of being set apart for the service of our Lord. Apostle Paul is not saying that a married woman is less pure than an unmarried one (Heb 13:4). Rather, he is saying that an unmarried person can set herself apart both physically and mentally for the service of our Lord without any family responsibility. Whereas, a married woman’s family responsibilities are time consuming. The conclusion or the basic reason for Apostle Paul’s advocacy of celibacy in 1 Cor 7 is that a person may serve the Lord WITHOUT DISTRACTION (verse 35).
4. On August 24, 2009 at 5:06 you made an interesting argument. If I understand the argument correctly, it says that marriage is defiling to those who are called to Zion. However, marriage does not defile those who are not called to Zion.
While this is an interesting argument, as far as I know, it is not the official TPM position. The official TPM position is that an essential qualification for Zion is “those who are not defiled by women”. According to TPM, this phrase refers to marriage and marriage defiles a person. Hence, a married person is disqualified from entering Zion. In fact, TPM book entitled “The Hundred Forty and Four Thousand on Mount Sion –Who are they?” labels married life as “stoop[ing] to … baser life”*. The word “base” means dishonorable or ignoble. The Word of God calls marriage honorable (Heb 13:4) and TPM calls it base [or dishonorable]. To TPM’s credit, most TPM pastors do not preach this explicitly.
*Full sentence: ”If one considers the eternal purpose of God, and his privilege of standing together with the Lamb, will he stoop to this baser life?”
Now returning to your argument, although the argument is not the official TPM postion, on the surface it may seems to save late Pastor Alwin’s Zion doctrine; hence, let us examine it in the light of the scriptures. As I understand it, the assertion is that marriage is defiling to those who are called to Zion, while it not defiling to the ones who are not called for Zion.
First, this argument violates Heb 13:4, which says marriage is honorable in ALL and the marriage bed undefiled and God will [only] judge whoremongers and adulterers. It does not say marriage is defiling to people who are called to Zion. Moreover, 1 Cor 7 does not mention that Zion is the reason Apostle Paul advocates celibacy; the reason given is that one may serve the Lord without DISTRACTION.
Secondly, the word Zion is used two times originally in the New Testament–one in Rev 14 and the other in Hebrews 12. Hebrews 12:22-23 says “ BUT YE ARE COME UNTO MOUNT SION, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect”
The Word of God is saying that all of us (married and single) Christians, who are under the new covenant, are spiritually the inhabitants of Sion and New Jerusalem. We have already come to Zion and heavenly Jerusalem. Note, it does not say only the unmarried ones have come into Zion.
We simply cannot take one verse from the book of revelations, misinterpret it, and combine it with out of context old testament versus to form a core doctrine of our church, while ignoring pertinent passages from the apostolic teachings.
Now, I must point out that God does call some to serve him without getting married, and if He has given us that “gift” of celibacy, we must obey and our reward will be great for walking in the will of God.
5. Finally, 1 Tim 5:11 & 12, is a discussion of financially supporting widows; it is not a discussion of ministry requirements. Please read the passage from verse 3 to discern the context—I do not wish to provide a verse by verse exegeses on these passages. Essentially the instructions are that if a widow has family members, let them financially help her. Verse 9 makes it clear that the “list” is a select group of widows for whom the church became financially responsible. If we are arguing that these requirements are for entering the ministry, then we must also argue that one must be over 60 years to begin the ministry—these passages are not describing the requirements of ministry. Since I am somewhat tired of typing, I will leave this incomplete….
God bless
Dear friends,
I am in Christ , and seated to gether in heaven with him.
So I will be in Zion. Where ever Christ is I will be there. Too Bad Pastor Alwin missed this simple truth.
My dog Chico would love to play with the lamb in Zion!!!! If there is a lamb there why not my dog Chico? Will NASA help poor Chico to get there? Dogs make better friends than lambs. By the way my wife and I, had roast lamb for dinner at the ALLEUJAH Resturant in Richmond, BC, Canada. It was delicious!!!!!
I shall retrn to face the fire, and the fury of my TPM friends.
Sam.
Dear Sam,
I write this to you with a heavy heart. No fire or fury…You will get it directly !!!
I did not expected you to be so cheap, talking nonsense about Zion, part of New Jerusalem, a heavenly place, irrespective of who will inherit it.
Here the debate is on TPM vs Non-TPM.
I have never read anyone quoting ill about heaven and its places…other than the owner of this blog, who I am sure is from a Satanist Group.
I welcome debate on TPM’s doctrine and its stand. But something like you mentioned is a bizzare of its kind.
I can clearly see you desperately need to meet a psychiatrist and that too with your partner..CHICO(Oops, not your wife)
Bye for now
JACOB
GSR
IN ONE OF YOUR LETTERS YOU HAVE WRITTEN:
NO marriage(prefered) for workers. To the hindu mind this is a form of holiness. (Daniel)
Dear brother, if you are the same Daniel Manickam who has posted earlier, let me tell you with regret that you have committed the same mistake again by misquoting me. You ought to be some more careful while debating in public forums. What you have attributed to me is in fact Bro. Sam Alan’s words which I quoted for reference. From my stand on the issue under debate, you could have easily guessed that I will not make such a comment.
If you are a different Daniel, apologies. Please take care not to misquote others.
IN FACT HINDUISM STATES THAT ONLY ‘BRAMACHARIYAS’
( LIKE THE TPM WORKERS) COULD TEACH THE VEDAS.
THE BUDDHIST MONKS BELIEVE UNMARRIED LIFE IS A HOLY LIFE ( AS TPM BELIEVES) AND THEY PRACTISE IT VERY ARDENTLY . (Daniel)
My wait for a sound argument from you continues as what you are trying to say is a logical fallacy called ‘false analogy’ which doesn’t have any merit in a debate other than to confuse the readers. Muslims generally make such arguments by drawing false parallels between Christian Trinity and pagan tritheism. You are on the same boat. If Hinduism has something that looks similar to TPM faith, that doesn’t make the TPM faith false because Hinduism is not the yardstick used, but the Scriptures.
SO ARE THE PRIESTS OF JAINISM AND THE FATHERS, BROTHERS AND NUNS OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH BELIEVE AND PRACTICE SO TOO. (Daniel)
So were Jesus, Paul and Barnabbas (even if you reject the celibate status of other Apostles) and a large number of people in the early church. Please learn some church history. Read what Tertullian, who lived not more than 150 years after the time of the Apostles and who was one of the most prolific writers of the pre-Nicene church wrote about celibacy,
I quote,
“There is no place at all where we read that nuptials are prohibited; of course on the ground that they are “a good thing.” What, however, is better than this “good,” we learn from the apostle, who permits marrying indeed, but prefers abstinence; the former on account of the insidiousnesses of temptations, the latter on account of the straits of the times. Now, by looking into the reason thus given for each proposition, it is easily discerned that the ground on which the power of marrying is conceded is necessity; but whatever necessity grants, she by her very nature depreciates. In fact, in that it is written, “To marry is better than to burn,” what, pray, is the nature of this “good” which is (only) commended by comparison with “evil,” so that the reason why “marrying” is more good is (merely) that “burning” is less? Nay, but how far better is it neither to marry nor to burn? Why, even in persecutions it is better to take advantage of the permission granted, and “flee from town to town,” than, when apprehended and racked, to deny (the faith). And therefore more blessed are they who have strength to depart (this life) in blessed confession of their testimony. I may say, What is permitted is not good. For how stands the case? I must of necessity die (if I be apprehended and confess my faith.) If I think (that fate) deplorable, (then flight) is good; but if I have a fear of the thing which is permitted, (the permitted thing) has some suspicion attaching to the cause of its permission. But that which is “better” no one (ever) “permitted,” as being undoubted, and manifest by its own inherent purity. There are some things which are not to be desired merely because they are not forbidden, albeit they are in a certain sense forbidden when other things are preferred to them; for the preference given to the higher things is a dissuasion from the lowest. A thing is not “good” merely because it is not “evil,” nor is it “evil” merely because it is not “harmful.” Further: that which is fully “good” excels on this ground, that it is not only not harmful, but profitable into the bargain. For you are bound to prefer what is profitable to what is (merely) not harmful. For the first place is what every struggle aims at; the second has consolation attaching to it, but not victory. But if we listen to the apostle, forgetting what is behind, let us both strain after what is before, and be followers after the better rewards. Thus, albeit he does not “cast a snare upon us,” he points out what tends to utility when he says, “The unmarried woman thinks on the things of the Lord, that both in body and spirit she may be holy; but the married is solicitous how to please her husband.” But he nowhere permits marriage in such a way as not rather to wish us to do our utmost in imitation of his own example. Happy the man who shall prove like Paul!”
Read it here in full,
http://liturgist.org/ccel/schaff/anf04.iii.v.i.iii.html
Might be that Tertullian was also influenced by the abundance of Buddhists in Sri Lanka. 😀 And not only Tertullian almost all church fathers who handled this topic has more or less the same opinion. It seems the impact of ‘Alwininsm’ goes back in time!!
THESE ARE GOOD BED FELLOWS OF THE TPM CULT. (Daniel)
This comment is not only immature but also indecent. In a debate, you must have the heart to acknowledge that your opponents value their faith as much as you do yours. Comments like “you are cult”, “from the pit of hell”, “devilish doctrine” etc can be used by anyone against anyone else. Such hasty comments and speedy judgments usually comes from the weaker side.
THE BIBLE NEVER SAYS EVEN ONCE THAT A FULL TIME MINISTER MUST TAKE THE VOW OF CELIBECY.
Not all full time workers, but only those of the Apostolic order. TPM very well acknowledges the status of the ministers in the former group for it regards in high honor such men of God like A W Tozer, Charles G Finney, Smith Wigglesworth, D L Moody etc. TPM never despises such ministers simply because they were married.
Now coming to the second group of workers, in which TPM wants its ministers to be, the Word of God states
“If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple….So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.” (Luke 14:26, 33)
Before you start giving your responses let me starightaway refute the common arguments pitched against the TPM interpretation of this verse
1. That this verse just means not to love any of these more than God.
This is usually the first response of anti-TPMmers. Though this can give a sort of consolation to them, this is simply not what the passage means. Any such interpretation of verse 26 is immediately refuted by verse 33 which explains the cost of discipleship as “he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple”. I hope all those who read this blog has got some training in elementary English, so I am not explaining the meaning of the words “forsaketh all he hath”. It just means what it says. What all are to be forsaken is listed in verse 26.
2. Now people may ask do we need to literally hate our father, mother, brothers, sisters etc to be a disciple? It’s a genuine question. I do not have any doubt that we don’t have to as Jesus who taught to love our enemies will not by any logic tell us to literally hate our loved ones. But still, the Greek word used for “hate” doesn’t have any alternative meaning of lesser effect. Hence we have to look into the context and from how the early disciples practiced this teaching of Jesus.
From the context we saw that the cost of discipleship is to forsksake everything that one has on his own in verse 33. Now let us see how the early Apostles practiced this.
Jesus is our supreme Apostle. (Hebrews 3:1). He is a perfect model for us in everything over and above the other Apostles. Though he left us an example in everything (1 Peter 2:21) he never married and lived a consecrated life. Some argue that this is to avoid starting a “half god-half man” race among men. This argument is simply absurd and shows a lack of basic understanding of the doctrines of incarnation and dual nature of Christ. Jesus was fully God and fully man by his incarnation and was fully capable of doing averything pertaining to humanity and divinity. He didn’t compromise on his divinity to assume humanity, neither did He compromise on his humanity to retain His divinity. He ate, drank, slept, wept, walked and talked just like any other human being would do. As that be the case He could have easily married without passing on His divine attributes to His children. But He didn’t do that because of His consecration and for the sake of the Kingdom of God.
Considering the second aspect of His life we can see from the Word of God that He led a silent life in the family submitting to His parents throughout his early years till the time He stepped out for ministry. But once He stepped out His attitude was completely different. Though he loved His mother and brothers He never loved or considered the blood relations with them. In fact He never calls His mother as “Mother” but only as “woman” implying that He considered her just like another woman. Some of His comments regarding His blood relationships are,
“Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.” (John 2:4)
“And it was told him by certain which said, Thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to see thee. And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.” (Luke 8:20, 21)
“And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.” (Luke 11:27, 28)
From these verses it is clear that Jesus valued only spiritual relationships and not blood relationships. Even when He appoints John to take care of Mary He addresses her only as “woman” and He is caring for Mary just like He would do for you and me, not because of any fleshly ties.
Jesus, who lived like that told His disciples,
“..as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.” (John 20:21)
So the will of Jesus is to send the disciples just like how the Father send Jesus, in full consecration.
Now coming to the consecration of the Apostles, we see that they were expected to forsake all that they had according to Luke 14:33.
“And going on from thence, he saw other two brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and he called them. And they immediately left the ship and their father, and followed him.” (Matt 4:21, 22)
God didn’t add the words “left the ship and their father” just add size to His book, but beacuse it has a profound meaning. It shows consecrating a person’s earthly profession and relationships for the sake of the Gospel.
“And when they had brought their ships to land, they forsook all, and followed him.” (Luke 5:11)
But was that only the net and their father that they left? Peter asks Jesus,
“Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee. And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel’s…” (Mark 10: 28,29)
Here Peter says that they (all Apostles) left their everything and followed Jesus. And Jesus gives us insight into what all things the disciples left for the sake of the Gospel – house, brethren, sisters, father, mother, wife, children, lands. If the disciples indeed had not left anything (as Dr. David Paul claims in his blog) this verse doesn’t make any sense at all, especially Peter’s confession.
This verse is quite parallel to what we saw in Luke 14:26,33. Luke 14 gives the instruction and Mark 10:28, 29 shows how the disciples were obedient to it.
(I will explain 1 Corinthians 9:5 later. Please don’t be confused about it for now.)
“And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house. And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.” (Luke 9:61, 62)
We observe two undeniable facts from the above verse,
Firstly Jesus is not even allowing the man to return to his dear ones and bid them farewell.
Secondly, the man knew that he had to bid farewell to his dear ones to follow Jesus and to be a minister.
Now Paul emphasizes the same thing wherever He gives us glimpses into the Apostolic consecration,
“Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more…And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;” (2 Cor 5:16,18)
Here Paul says that “know we no man after the flesh”, not even Christ (meaning that though many of them had seen Jesus in the flesh, they no more consider that to be important but the spiritual relatioship with Him.) Note that the term “man” in this verse refers to humans in general and not to the male gender. Now the imporant point is who is this “we” in this verse? From verse 18 we know that it is those to whom the “ministry of reconciliation” (between man and God) is entrusted. Any attempt to show that the “we” includes all believers is futile, since v 12, 13 distinguishes “we” (ministers) and “you” (believers).
Can someone explain to me how can a person be married and not know anyone after the flesh? (other than by living in consecration as most married ministers in TPM do)
Now when instructing another young minister of Christ, Timothy, Paul gives the following exhortation:
“No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.” (2 Timothy 2:4)
Here also, from the context it is clear that this is an advice given to ministers of God. Again, how can you lead an active married life and not get yourselves entangled to the affairs of this life. Any honest married man knows he is entagled with the affairs of this life – the welfare of his wife and family, children’s education, their marriage etc. These are all things that pertains to “this life” and a married man has no escape from that.
But Paul tells Timothy not to be like that.
It is clear from all these that the ministers of the Apostolic age, whether married or unmarried, left their everything and lived a life of full consecration without entangling in the affairs of this life. TPM pastors do the same.
[1 Cor 9:5 is one verse that is usually subjected to gross misinterpretation to prove otherwise. This I will deal with later in detail]
So in a nutshell, from these observations we can see that the “hate” mentioned in Luke 14:26 is not hating the person, but the relationship for the sake of the Gospel. A consecrated man sees his parents or brethren just like any other believer in Christ, without any favoritism. They are redeemed from the earth (Reve 14:3), ie from their earthly ambitions, and from among men (Reve 14:4), ie, from their relationships, kindred, society to follow the Lamb wherever He goes (Reve 14:4) and to be in heavenly Zion with Jesus which Jesus promised that “where I am, there shall also my servant be” (John 12:26).
They sing a song before Him which no other man could learn (Reve 14:3) beacuse they lived a life here on earth which no other men could live.
3. The third argument used against this is that the “disciples” in Luke 14:26 denotes all the believers and not just Apostles since the believers are called as “disciples” in the Matthew 28: 19 and elsewhere in the Scriptures.
I do not contest the fact that the believers in general are sometimes mentioned as “disciples”. But there is an overwhelming majority of verses that uses “disciples” exclusively to Apostles. A few examples are: Matt 8:25; Matt 15:23; Matt 15:32; Matt 10:1; Matt 13:36; Matt 16:13; Matt 17:16; Matt 20:17; Matt 24:3; Matt 26:35; Matt 28:7; Mark 7:17; Mark 8:33; Luke 9:16; John 6:12 etc. to quote a few.
Now if someone still holds that Luke 14:26 applies to all believers then let us look into the context. I quoted Luke 14:26 and Luke 14:33 to establish the doctrine of consecration. Between these two verses Jesus tells two parables to explain why consecration is needed:
– Parable of one who is building a tower.
– Parable of one going out for war.
Let us see if the Scriptures explain who the builders are and who these warriors are.
Paul says thus regarding the ministers in his epistle to the Corinthians,
“For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.” (1 Cor 3:9,10)
Here Paul makes it clear that we, believers, are the building whereas ministers like Paul are the builders. This is an exact parallel to the parable of the one building a tower in Luke 14:26-33. Hence it is clear that the disciples Luke 14:26 refers only to ministers of God and not believers, as they are the ones who are building.
In Paul’s letter to Timothy Paul exhorts him regarding the ministry thus,
“No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.” (2 Tim 2:4)
This analogy is parallel to the second parable that Jesus said in Luke 14. 2 Tim 2:2; 2 Tim 2:6 in comparison with 1 Cor 3:9; 2 Tim 2:15; 2 Tim 2:24 etc. makes it clear that this chapter also primarily deals with ministers of God.
Thus since both the parables of Jesus are explained in relation to the ministry we have to conclude that the “disciples” in Luke 14:26 refers to full time servants of God, and is from there that if their ministry has to be fruitful as God sees it, they have to forsake their all and come out.
4. The final argument that I have heard is that Jesus didn’t mean what He said.
If this is your argument, then let be clear that I believe that He meant what He said, rather than believeing that He meant what you are going to say!
Till now we were discussing if the Scriptures makes it mandatory that a full time minister must be consecrated. And we have seen that ministers of the Apostolic order have to be consecrated as evidenced by an abundance of Scripture passages.
For another passage where Paul requires the widows who are taken for minsitry to be celibates please read my post on August 24, 2009 at 5:06 pm. That passage implies that there was a prior understanding between Paul and Timothy that those who are taken for ministry maintain celibacy after that.
(1 Corinthians 9:5 and “husband of one wife” passages will be explained soon.)
God bless.
@Bob
Greetings in the name of the Lord!
Yeah, I do recognize you by name and I cannot miss you in the context of the discussion going on here. It is the discussion that we had at the beginning of this year that forced me to divert my attention from comparative religion to “comparative Pentecostalism”.
I have read your responses, and appreciate the honesty and soundness of your reasoning which, frankly speaking, I haven’t heard from many. Had I seen your post before I submitted my previous post I would have said something more in my last paragraph of the previous post.
I respect your ideas and do agree in many points, but not all.
So I will give my response as soon as I could spare some time.
Grace and peace be with you
Rachel Chitra
Hi,
You say that I don’t believe in God. Then why are u keeping this blog on.
This seems to be too much. Why don’t you SHUT DOWN this blog.
Please utilize your valuable time & energy as also others for some worth while things jobs.
Regards,
TPM’s official doctrine is that marriage defiles a person, and married life is referred to as “stoop[ing] to a baser life”. Most of the wise and Godly pastors of TPM do not teach believers that they are defiled because of marriage. As I understand it, the modified non-TPM argument to save late Pastor Alwin’s unscriptural Zion doctrine is that marriage only defiles 144K people.
Let me address the two examples provided in support of this modified explanation. First, it was stated that drinking wine did not defile the Old Testament saints, but it defiled Samson.
The New Testament is explicitly clear that drinking wine, eating meat offered to idols, or marriage does not defile any New Testament believer (Col 2:16, 1 Tim4:3). Furthermore, the Holy Spirit expressly commands that it is doctrine of devils and seducing spirits to teach that eating meat or marriage defiles a New Testament believer, whether he be a member of the laity, clergy, or any other select group(1 Tim 4:1-3)
If God calls a person to be a celibate and he gets married, it suggests that he is outside the perfect calling of God. It is not defiling. Our Lord explains what defiling is in Mat 15:19 & 20 “For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.”
Another argument provided in support of marriage being defilement to a select group was that some saints in the Old Testament had multiple wives, but it did not defile them; however, having multiple wives defiles a New Testament believer. The latter part is not so. Church history tells us that many of the first and second century Christians had multiple wives (TPM agrees with this fact) and Apostle Paul calls them sanctified saints (Eph 1:1, 1 Cor 1:2, etc.)
Therefore, the doctrine of marriage being defilement to a select group of people is synonymous to having a doctrine that forbids marriage to a select group of people and it is nothing more than a doctrine of devils and seducing spirits (1 Tim 4:1-3).
Pastor Alwin himself could not defend his Zion doctrine. Freddy questioned him and Freddy was exiled to USA. Phillip Chandapilla questioned him, he was sent back to Kerala. Arul Doss and another person rigorously questioned him at Trivandrum and Alwin was much embarrassed by not being able to defend his doctrine.
The only way to defend late Pastor Alwin’s celibacy/Zion doctrine is to impose our preconceived notion on biblical texts. As far as I am concerned, Alwin’s doctrines (of devils and seducing spirits) are not worth defending or refuting. However, my friend George’s arguments were sufficiently interesting for me to offer my comments.
God bless and you guys carry on with the discussion…
George, thanks for your gracious words.
Tertullian’s teachings (Montanism) were labeled as heresy by the early church fathers, and he was given an opportunity to repent. He refused; hence, he was labeled as a heretic (excommunicated) by the early church fathers. It is a serious problem that TPM doctrines are consistent with the teachings of a movement that the early church fathers that we hold in high regard labeled as heresy [or cult]. However, I do not label TPM as a cult (perhaps due to my close association with it); rather it has some unscriptural core teachings. Many of TPM’s fundamental doctrines are consistent with the scriptures and it has a lot of great pastors and believers whom I hold in high regard. However, I associate myself with Pastor Freddy’s (whom I hold in high regard) view that Alwinims is from the pit.
With respect to Luke 14:26, 33, let me suggest a proper way to interpret the writings in the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, & John). These four authors describe the life and teachings of Jesus from their perspectives; thus, many of the incidents one author describes are described by the other authors. That is, when Mathew describes a certain teaching of Jesus, we can look up how Mark, Luke, &/or John described the same teachings. This way we can get a proper understanding of the teachings and events. I think all of us will agree on that point.
Let us see how the other author described Luke 14:26, 33. Mathew describes the same teaching as follows: “He that loveth father or mother MORE THAN ME is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter MORE THAN ME is not worthy of me. 38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. 39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.” (Emphasis added) (Mat 10:37-39)
Thus, when we examine how Mathew and Luke described the same event, we get a proper picture of Jesus’ teaching. The emphasis was the “more than me” clause. We should not love anyone or anything, including family members and our own life MORE THAN we love the Lord.
Jesus was preaching a strong message of commitment, where a follower of Jesus must make a commitment to follow Him even if it cost him everything including his own life. I believe the message is applicable to everyone who wishes to follow Him. However, when Jesus preached these strong messages, many self-centered people left him (John 6:66).
We can make an argument that TPM is actually emphasizing these strong messages of Jesus. However, I am afraid that TPM is using these verses to argue that celibacy is a requirement for being a clergy, which is unscriptural. These passages cannot be adduced in support of stipulating celibacy for clergy, realizing that some are called to a single life while others are not, but both groups must make a strong commitment to follow Christ.
I always find your arguments intellectually sophisticated and interesting to respond, but lack of time prevents me from actively getting involved in these debates these days.
God bless
I need to offer a correction and clarification regarding my comment about Tertullian. Tertullian has made significant contribution to Christianity in his early writings. However, later he joined and became the most famous leader and defender of a movement called Montanism.
Montenists emphasized a radical ascetic life style that included self-renunciation in many aspects. They sort of held that if one really wanted to experience God’s best, they must give up their family and live a celibate life. For example, the leaders of Montenism, gave up their spouses and families to become born-again virgins to be used of God better.
Montenism was rejected by the writings of the early church fathers, labeling it as heresy. Tertullian himself was not individually excommunicated (previous error regretted). Rather the Montanists as a whole were effectively excommunicated when the Synod of Iconium (in 230AD) rejected Montenism in that they said anyone baptized in Montenist churches was not even a Christian.
You may read further about Montanism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montanism
Dear George,
With respect your comment dated August 29, 2009 in point #3 you make the assertion that the message in Luke 14:26, 33 is applicable only to fulltime servants of God, not to all believers.
With the utmost respect, did you not read the verse right above it? Verse 25? It tells us that Jesus is talking TO ALL BELIVERS.
“25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, 26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.“
JESUS TURNED TO THE GREAT MULTITUDES AND SAID UNTO THEM IF YOU DO NOT HATE YOUR FAMILY, WIFE, AND YOUR OWN LIFE YOU CANNOT BE MY DISCIPLE.
Again, we cannot use these passages in support of TPM style consecration since this passage applies to all believers and the explanation I provided earlier (that this is a “more than me” clause) is further confirmed.
Response to Bro. Sam Alan’s post on August 29, 2009 at 11:36 am
My dog Chico would love to play with the lamb in Zion!!!! If there is a lamb there why not my dog Chico? Will NASA help poor Chico to get there? Dogs make better friends than lambs.
Though I am not very interested in responding to non-sensical comments during a serious discussion, this one caught my attention as this is the most blashphemous comment that I have ever heard from a Pentecostal believer. Why should you turn your hatred of the TPM church towards Jesus? There are clear implications from these comments which I do not want to post in a public forum.
If you think the dog make a better friend for you than the Lamb, then Zion is not the place for you. There is another place in eternity where you get the friendship of “dogs”.
“Outside are the dogs…” (Reve 22:15)
But I sincerely pray God not to grant your wish!
As you claim to be an ex-pastor of CPM I am expecting much more sensible statements from you.
Dear BOB
You said in your previous last post
(Alwin was much embarrassed by not being able to defend his doctrine)
Can I ask, how did you know that he was embarrassed???? I would be glad to know your reply. I am not defending him. If you read my previous post, I am not a supporter or defender of any TPM Chief Pastor or any Pastor, since my understanding is that they too are human being. They will go in heaven if they live, which also applies to me.
However, one thing is sure that only those who dedicate their life to LORD shall be in ZION.
Jesus said and is written in Math 19:012 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
Can you explain a little more in detail on this subject??? BOB??
Regards
JACOB
GSR,
Forget Pentecostal Group, I have not heard people from Roman Catholics, Marthoma, Jacobite speaking like this. Even Good Muslims and Good Hindus avoid speaking bad of spiritual things, irrespective of religion.
Did you read his earlier posts?? Everytime he says, I SHALL RETURN…I SHALL RETURN!!!! Something which only Christ hath said. >>>>!!!!
This guy is now totally under CHICO’s control, opposite to what he claims. I am sure that he is from a Satanist Group.
Dont heed him
JACOB
Response to Bro. Bob’s post on August 31, 2009 at 2:40 am
Thanks Bob for the clarification given on your opinion regarding Tertullian. It saved much of my time and effort. However I want to add the following points:
1. There is not enough evidence to brand Monanism as a cult or even a heretical group (at least during their initial period). For a long time it was so believed by historians due to the incorrect information given about them in the ‘Ecclesiastical History’ of Eusebius. All information available on Montanists comes through the writings of those who were their opponents. Tertullians treatise ‘De Ecstasi’ in defence of Montanism is sadly lost. But through the careful analysis of multiple sources scholars have come to the conclusion that much of the accusations against Montanists given by Eusebius like – they calimed themselves to be the Paraclete (Holy Spirit) or God the Father, they led immoral lives, they had blood sacrifices during prayer services etc. – are politically motivated and evidently false. As agreed even in the Catholic Encyclopedia, Montanism started as a reformation movement against the laxity that started appearing in the church and their theology was completely orthodox and a large number of christians including many bishops like Eleutherus, Bishop of Rome (considered as Pope by Roman Catholics) supported the movement initially. But there were those who opposed them also on account of their ecstatic nature of prophecies and their style of independent working from the mainstream church. This rift grew further in thr course of time which eventually led to their branding as heretics the details of which are unclear. But their doctrine of celibacy/consecration for ministers are never questioned by the mainstream church, because it was not in conflict with their doctrine.
2. Tertullian associated himself with Montanists only for a short period and when the movement started going in the wrong direction in the later times he stepped out and possibly found an independent movement on his own. St. Augustine claims that he returned back to the mainstream church.
3. Despite his association with Monatinsts Tertullian’s theology and doctrines were never really questioned by the later church fathers. In fact they considered his writings to be of much importance. St. Augustine’s claim of his return to the catholic church is seen by scholars as an attempt to claim the legacy of Tertullian for the church.
If not for Tertullian we will have much less proof against the Islamic argument that the doctrine of Trinity was decided by voting in the Council of Nicea. If not for Tertullian we would not have known that there were voices inside the church against the introduction of child baptism. And if not for Tertullian I will have one less witness for my opinion that 1 Corinthians 9:5 has nothing to do with the wives of Apostles (more on this later)
Hence my suggestion is that Tertullian’s teaching regarding marriage has to be seriously reconsidered not only because he lived closer to the Apostles than us, but also because it is totally Scriptural.
But, if someone still doubts whether Tertullian is a trustworthy historical source lets turn to another great church father who is his contemporary and who was completely orthodox throughout his lifetime and who in these days are honored by the Protestants as well, St. Cyprian, who was born in the second half of second century (not even 100 years after Apostle John) says thus in his Treatises,
In his Treatise 12, Third Book, in the chapter “Of the benefit of virginity and of continency”
In Genesis: “Multiplying I will multiply your sorrows and your groanings, and in sorrow shall you bring forth children; and your turning shall be to your husband, and he shall rule over you.” Of this same thing in the Gospel according to Matthew: “All men do not receive the word, but they to whom it is given: for there are some eunuchs who were born so from their mother’s womb, and there are eunuchs who have been constrained bymen, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He who can receive it, let him receive it.” Also according to Luke: “The children of this world beget, and are begotten. But they who have been considered worthy of that world, and the resurrection from the dead, do not marry, nor are married: for neither shall they begin to die: for they are equal to the angels of God, since they are the children of the resurrection. But, that the dead rise again, Moses intimates when he says in the bush, The Lord, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. He is not the God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto Him.” Also in the first Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians: “It is good for a man not to touch a woman. But, on account of fornication, let every man have his own wife, and every woman have her own husband. Let the husband render what is due to the wife, and similarly the wife to the husband. The wife has not power over her own body, but the husband. And in like manner, the husband has not power over his own body, but the wife. Defraud not one the other, except by agreement for atime, that you may have leisure for prayer; and again return to the same point, lest Satan tempt you on account of your incontinency. This I say by way of allowance, not by way of command. But I wish that all men should be even as I am. But every one has his proper gift from God; one in one way, but another in another way.” Also in the same place: “An unmarried man thinks of those things which are the Lord’s, in what way he may please God; but he who has contracted marriage thinks of those things that are of this world, in what way he may please his wife. Thus also, both the woman and the unmarried virgin thinks of those things which are the Lord’s, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit; but she that has married thinks of those things which are of this world, in what way she may please her husband.” Also in Exodus, when the Lord had commanded Moses that he should sanctify the people for the third day, he sanctified them, and added: “Be ready, for three days you shall not approach to women.” Also in the first book of Kings: “And the priest answered to David, and said, There are no profane loaves in my hand, except one sacred loaf. If the young men have been kept back from women, they shall eat.” Also in the Apocalypse: “These are they who have not defiled themselves with women, for they have continued virgins; these are they who follow the Lamb wherever He shall go.”
It is clear from the last part that he agrees to the TPM interpretation of “they who have not defiled themselves with women”. Hence to say that this is the fertile imagination of Pastor Alwin and is not supported by church history is totally false.
Hence there is sufficient reason to believe that the pre Nicene church’s understanding on marriage is more closer to TPM doctrine and that of the rest of the evenagelicals. The latter’s departure from the historcial understanding is mainy caused by the influence of hyper sexual western culture on Christianity. Almost 90% of Christian ministers of the 20th century were from the United States and products of its Bible colleges. Hence these ideologies dominated Christendom with very few people even recognising that there is a call to celibacy. (Matt 19:12) John MacArthur, one of America’s best known theologians, even said that celibacy is from Satan. :O
Response to Bro. Bob’s post on August 31, 2009 at 9:03 am
Apologies for not giving the reference for Cyprian’s words. Here it is,
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/050712c.htm
(Since I have to answer many, and a lot of points have to be addressed I will be following a bottom up approach within my time constraints)
Luke 14:26, 33
With all respect for your opinion on this, I decline to accept it as a sound interpretation of the Scripture passages. You gave two arguments in support of your “more than me” interpretation.
1. By comparison with Matthew 10:37-39
The underlying philosophy of your argument is perfect. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John have recorded the words and deeds of Jesus and it is always a good practice to compare these to get the right understanding. I agree with you on this.
But we must not try to parallelize incidents or words of Jesus which are not in fact parallel or the same. Jesus has said and did many seemingly similar but different things throughout His ministry. We must not deny Jesus His choice of doing it. And we must not, in an attempt to impose our own undertanding on the Scriptures, interpret these in a way that totally takes away the meaning of one or more of the Gospel accounts. Doing this will lead to unnecessay contradictions and questions regarding the accuracy of the Scriptures and what Jesus actually said. Let me give you an example
There is an episode in the Scriptures where Jesus cleanses the Temple of Jerusalem. Skeptics, in an attempt to find contradiction in the Scriptures, ask “When did Jesus do it, during the beginning of His ministry (John 2:13-16) or towards the close of His ministry (Matthew 21:12; Mark 11:15-17)?” Attempting to parallelize the accounts of John and Mark will only lead to our embarassment. The key here is that Jesus did it at least twice, one during the beginning and one at the end. Hence John and mark are not describing the same event.
There are many other examples for this like, what was given for Jesus to drink on the cross? when was it given? and Did he actually drink it or not? Again the answer is that he was given two different drinks twice during the course of His crucifixion, one He drinks the other He doesn’t. (etc.)
This possibility has to be considered more in the case of Jesus’ sayings as we cannot afford to lose any of His teachings. Coming to the parallelism of Luke 14:26 and Matthew 10:37-39, I would have immediately conceded that these were the same teaching of Jesus if Luke’s account ended with Luke 14:26. Considering the verses from 26, especially verse 33 where Jesus tell to “forsake everything and follow Him” we can see that there is considerable differences in the meaning of the verses. Your interpretation cannot follow without robbing Luke 14:33 of its meaning.
Secondly, on careful observation we can see that the context of Luke 16 and Matthew 10 are totally different. Furthermore the context of Matthew 10 in fact appears in Luke in chapter 9, and not 16. Hence these should be considered as two different teachings of Jesus. Your argument will not stand without implying a serious flaw with Matthew, Luke or both on what, when, where and to whom Jesus said this.
2. Your second argument doesn’t seem to be as important as the first one. I never claimed that Luke 14:26-33 is told only to (in the sense of physical audience) ministers, but that it is told only about ministers. In fact that makes the verse more meaningful. Why should Jesus tell about consecration to those who have already consecrated their all and followed him? The disciples were already living in that consecration.
The verse in ltself is clear that it is spoken to “those who wants to be his disciple” among the multitudes regarding the cost of their desire, and not to those who are already his disciples. I fail to see how it affects my interpretation.
Since there are reasons to reject the two counter arguments given, and also because of other points that I had given I sincerely think my argument on August 29, 2009 at 3:50 pm is valid without any modification.
(to be continued)
God bless you all.
[PS: I do understand and respect the fact that there are differences in the way we (all who participate in this thread) understand the Scripture. Since TPM doctrines are on the defensive in this thread my attempt is to show ‘why we believe what we believe’ and not intended to force my opinion on anyone or ridicule your opinion. I am trying if I could make the TPM members who visit this page to be better aware of the reasons for their belief.]
Bro Sam Alan,
I have been hunting information about this Alvin ever since I heard that he fell for a dissolute reason, though I‘d been reading this blog even before you started posting, I remembered a Tamil proverb when a squirrel couldn’t reach the fruit atop of a tree after trying a couple of times it consoled himself saying “this is a bad fruit, that’s why I could not reach to plug it”. It’s like when you couldn’t get through SAT, you blamed the university saying it is bad! Most of the ex-TPMites’ tendency is that the “University is bad”. I don’t say “ALL of them” please note that I said MOST of the ex-TPMites’ opinion about TPM is like the opinion of the squirrel. That’s why the immature screaming at this blog didn’t strike me.
Up until your fragmented biography on Alvin was posted, I believed and thanked you, I thought you are a matured believer concerned about people who are bullied under the guise of holiness, but I am shaken by your shameful and immature comment about your dog being in Zion. Shame on people who out of spiritual pride take God for a ride by ridiculing his divinity!
This is a fantastic site which i like. Criticism is needed these days. The trend is becoming more like superstitions. The church needs renovation. Please read my/our site which is meant for the whole pentecostal churches, though i am from cpm and then to other pentecostals. Please read my site and reply to either contact e-mail ID or to my e-mail ID, parasuramindia@yahoo.com
-parasuram
After all the Pentecostal churches are, as it is written, they stain the gnat and swallow the camel alive. They belong to this lot.
Be careful, let not the first become last and the last first.
-parasuram
Hi rachelchitra (and a Hi to all others)
I don’t know if you don’t believe in God, but what you are saying is correct, 100%. One side the world is going from crime to more crime, whereas this TPM is driving people from ignorance to more ignorance. After I followed all the doctrine of the Bible for the past 40 years very ardent, now I am standing on the road, left alone. What is he doing, Jesus and the church? where all the promises have gone?
This Christianity too was meant for a very normal life, not to strangle ourselves in white clothes and selfless life. The second commandment says “You shall love your neighbor as yourself” means what? love yourself, your family, and your dependents in terms of education, property, wisdom, social status enjoy the life “in Lord” (there are limitations) preserve your salvation and now share this love to your neighbor. WHAT THESE PENTECOSTAL ARE DOING? They are sharing only the Gospel, but don’t pity even the beggar next to them. Why so much, they do not even bother about their own church members.
Recently I started to do a research on why this present Christianity is becoming a failure rather than what it is supposed to be victorious one. I found answers. Details are in
http://thepentecostalchurches.blogspot.com/
my contact ID is parasuramindia@yahoo.co.in
I want to see Christianity a practical way, not a hypocrisy.
What these numerous pastors and newly springing up churches are teaching? They are taking the word very carnally, literally and boast we are highly spiritual. They are wrong. I have numerous examples of what they teach and not follow. The word is be taken spiritually.
I can show you with examples what I mention here.
– I HATE CHRISTIANITY BECOMING A BUNCH OF SUPERSTITIONS-
These too high spiritual people stain the gnat and finally swallow the camel alive. – I am not saying, the Bible says.
What… scratching? They teach so much about these petty things, wearing white clothes, not to have mustache, not to have beard, not to have medicine… etc…etc… but one fine day many of them are falling into abhorrent sins, from where they never get normal. They are ending up eloping, and at the courts. Where the forgiveness has gone?
This is what the Bible says, in the last days many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.
Lets not be one among them, where these miserable will neither be enjoying this world nor the coming world. (At least a sinner is completely enjoying the world to the extent possible) you pentecostal! are more miserable than that.
Every course is graded carefully so the learners become proficient in what they are learning, but this great Christianity does not have one.
We need to start off with what we see with our eyes(If you cannot love your brother whom you can see, how can you love God whom you cannot see?, then gradually move on to “love your enemies, do good to those who hate” and so on. Lets work more, talk less. Doesn’t this sound good?
Don’t forget to visit
http://thepentecostalchurches.blogspot.com/
Jesus wanted his disciples to be a testimony for him… not just a loud speaker. Just spreading the Gospel …. a CD player will do that job.
my contact ID is parasuramindia@yahoo.co.in
Gsr
How can someone who supports Alwin’s blasphemous revelations, accuse me of blasphemy. All I was talking was about the literal
lamb in Zion. Since you believe like the rest of the brain washed, that ‘defiled with women’ is literal, the lamb should be literal also. Let me repeat again since you dont seem to get it. Marriage is honourable and the bed undefiled. Christian marrige has no defilement attached to it.
Have you any scripture to support it?
The book of Revelation, is a revelation of Jesus Christ, as mentioned in the first verse, and ends with the grace of God. Alwin missed.
both!! No wonder his revelations were taken out of context, and twisted to suit his perverted mind. If only you knew as I knew him!
I was never a CPM Pastor. I was in CPM because I was scared of Alwin, and did not know anything better, except that Alwin was a crook. I knew that as a teenager. I was not in CPM by choice.
I WAS A VICTIM OF CIRCUMSTANCES. Thank God for deliverence and ENLIGHTMENT. I am in Christ, and Christ is in God, and I am seated togeter in heavenly places with Christ. Hope you are there too.
I shall return.
Sam.
Jacob,
This is the second part of my response (continuation to my blog dated August 14, 2009) to your blogs dated August 10, 2009 and August 22, 2009. I wanted to reply sooner but could not find the time.
You said:
“THIS IS A NICE U TURN FROM YOU. EVEN BEFORE A COMPLETION OF 2 FULL MONTHS YOU SAY THAT TPM IS A CULT, FOR WHICH YOU DEFENDED STRONGLY SOME 1.85 MONTHS BACK!!!!”
My response:
As usual, you are quick to accuse me without reading my posts properly. I only defended TPM’s position on marriage when all kinds of false things were written on this by the ‘fake Jacob’(?). The views expressed by the ‘fake Jacob’(?) claiming to be TPM’s position on marriage were so diametrically opposite to TPM’s actual position on marriage, I had to step in to clarify the truth. I challenge you to show that I defended any of TPM’s doctrines such as Celibacy, Divine Healing, Zion, 144,000, etc. other than marriage, in any of my blogs. How can you say I strongly defended TPM and made a U-turn? Sorry, you are completely off the mark Jacob!
Again, what made you think that I was a staunch supporter of TPM (other than on marriage) 2 months back and made a U-turn within these 2 months? If you go through my blogs carefully, I very clearly mentioned that I started questioning TPM’s doctrines 9 years back. It took me all these years to come out of TPM and not just 2 months as you claim! Read the following quotes from my earlier blogs and stand corrected.
A quote from my blog dated July 18, 2009: “Even I was like you once, a hardened TPM supporter refusing to see the short comings of TPM in the light of the scriptures – in other words, a blind supporter of TPM at any cost. It was after moving to Canada about 9 years back that I started noticing the inconsistencies within TPM and this made me scrutinize the other unique doctrines of TPM also in the light of the scriptures.”
Again a quote from my blog dated August 4, 2009: “Let me admit, it was not very easy for me initially to accept the fact that TPM doctrines are erroneous and unscriptural. I had been indoctrinated with these false teachings for many years and I was not even prepared to accept the fact that I was enslaved in this cult. It took me many years of diligent study of the scriptures and seeking the will of God through prayers that I finally accepted my state to God and cried out for deliverance. Praise the Lord; He delivered me from all man-made doctrines.”
You said:
“SORRY, I STILL CANT STOP LAUGHING TO READ THAT JESUS CLEARLY SPOKE TO YOU THAT TPM IS A CULT!!!! AND THAT TOO CLEARLY THROUGH HIS WORD???? WHICH WORD OF GOD IN BIBLE SAYS THAT TPM IS A CULT??? CAN YOU PLEASE REFER THE PAGE AND CHAPTER TO ME??? I TOO WANT TO READ IT AND PERHAPS SHOW TO OTHER TPM BELIEVERS AND ALSO POSSIBLY TO OUR PASTORS!!!!”
My response:
Yes, God speaks to the human heart through His Word (Scriptures) even today if one sincerely and diligently seeks Him for guidance. Apparently, you don’t seem to have had this experience anytime in your life and that’s why mere mention of this is a LAUGHING matter to you. I can’t help other than pity you Jacob. Grow up and learn to listen to the voice of God through His Word rather than being spoon fed from your pastors the same stale food (wrong doctrines) every time. Even I was like you when I was in TPM India – just accepting whatever was preached. I was discouraged from questioning or examining the doctrines. I was discouraged from reading or listening to any other Christian literature or messages other than TPM’s. Much of the harm of organized religion comes from the demand to believe in certain things without questioning. Such ‘blind belief’ is not Biblical. If a church’s doctrines are true it will always stand up to our questions.
There is no explicit mention of any of today’s church denominations in the Bible. Similarly, you won’t find the term ‘CULT’ in the Bible. Even though the ‘Jehovah’s Witness’ and the ‘Mormons’ are not mentioned in the Bible, the main stream Christianity still brand these religious groups as ‘CULTS’ since their doctrines are not consistent with the scriptures. The Bible only lays down the principles of sound Christian living that is acceptable to God, and we Christians have to apply these Biblical principles to the social settings of the times we live in (with the help of the Holy Spirit) to discern what is correct. Thus, it is our duty to examine a church’s teachings with the help of the Holy Spirit to see if they are correct. If a church’s teachings are inconsistent with the scriptures, we conclude it is a ‘CULT’ preaching erroneous doctrines.
For example, in the Bible, marriage is viewed as the norm, and celibacy as the exception for the clergy. Marriage is viewed as holy, righteous, and good. Those who seek to prohibit marriage as something evil are identified as false teachers by Paul (1 Timothy 4:1-3). Thus, nowhere in the Bible it is commended that the clergy be unmarried, unless of course if someone twists the scriptures to come up with an interpretation contradicting this. Yet, for TPM, celibacy is the norm and marriage the exception for the clergy.
I used to seek answers to many of TPM’s questionable doctrines in several Christian literature and messages from main stream Christian denominations and well known Christian preachers. I can quote several things from these writings/messages that taught me how to identify a ‘CULT’. Since writing everything in this blog will take up too much space, I am not going to do that. Instead, I am providing the link to one such writing by Bro. Zac Poonan “The Marks of Cultism” http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/articles.php?display=article09. There are other articles/messages on this topic by well known Evangelists like Zac Poonan, Augustine Jebakumar, R. Stanley, and others from the West that have truly opened my spiritual eyes and provided great insights into the scriptures on many doctrinal matters that I was taught wrongly for many years.
You said:
“YOU MIGHT BE GOOD IN ENGLISH….I COMPLIMENT YOU ON THAT.. BUT UNFORTUNATELY THAT WOULD BE THE ONLY COMPLIMENT YOU WILL GET…”
My response:
This is a downright cheap comment……
You said:
“Okay on your identity. I feel sorry for my words. But if you were in my shoes, you too would had thought the same way……….”
My response:
Sorry Jacob, I disagree with you. If I were in your shoes, I would never care to question the integrity of any blogger here. For me, it is immaterial if one is TPM or non-TPM, Hindu or Muslim, Atheist or Theist. I see the content of a person’s writing and reply if I feel the urge or need to do so. Who am I to call someone a ‘fraud’ when I don’t have the evidence to do so? You seem to have proved yourself repeatedly that you are a big ‘doubting Thomas’. You have questioned the identity of many bloggers. In your response to Chelraj on August 13, you wrote: “first of all i doubt that you are a tpm, as you claim” – what makes you think he is not a TPM? Are you not making a big error in judgment by calling Chelraj a non-TPM just because his question appeared to challenge TPM in your view? Time you get right Jacob!
You said:
“Also a suggestion to you against what You said in your previous last post…….My first reaction is that you said, you HAD a good testimony. This means, you dont have it now!!!! My second response is as below…….”
My response:
The term ‘testimony’ I used here is more from a ‘referral’ or ‘reference check’ perspective. Because you continually accused me ‘FRAUD TPM’, ‘CHEAP BELIEVER’, ‘CHEAP SOUL’, ‘MUSLIM’, etc., I was compelled to write in a way that I could dispel your doubts once for all. I never claimed this ‘testimony’ is my token to Heaven. This is simply a conception of your wild imaginations. If you had not questioned my authenticity in the first place, it would not have been necessary for me to write what I had written. Your comments here are completely out of context and unwarranted…..as usual you are trying to divert this blog from the main issues by focusing more on personal issues and personal identities. Are these in any way relevant to what is being discussed here?
You said:
“You kept your standard low by accepting good testimonies from all those persons you mentioned. Once you saw them failing, it shook you and changed your thoughts.”
My response:
I don’t understand how anyone’s standard will go low if other people say good things (testimony) about them. I don’t understand what you are trying to convey, perhaps, this sentence could be rephrased better to convey what you want to say.
You are completely wrong when you make a wild assumption again to say that I was shaken when I saw the TPM pastors (or workers) around me failing (or falling from faith). As far as I am aware, I have not seen any of the TPM pastors whom I was associated with, committing any sin or being a bad example to others. I only have good things to say about them. As a Christian, I deeply respect and even cherish the love and reverence most workers and believers in TPM have for Jesus Christ. So, this is not about looking at individuals standing or falling (it is for God to judge individuals, not me), but about a church whose doctrines are not consistent with the scriptures. Nowhere in my blogs did I ever mention about individuals being the reason for my leaving TPM.
You said:
“By the way, I personally percieve that TPM has a better level and standard than all other denominations in christianity, if understood properly. I repeat, IF UNDERSTOOD PROPERLY…”
My response:
As you rightly said, this is your PERSONAL PERCEPTION. My personal perception is different from yours. New Testament speaks of better Christians (believers) only and not better church denominations! There can be only two church denominations, either a true church or a false church. No one church denomination can claim to be the exclusive true church. The body of Christ or the Universal Church is the unseen church worldwide, and the local (true) churches everywhere are part of it. TPM does not accept this truth and claims to be the only true church worldwide and this is the reason they don’t give communion to believers from other Pentecostal churches. Other Pentecostal churches don’t tow this line and accept that there are other churches that are part of the Universal Church (body of Christ).
For argument sake, let us say TPM is the only true church worldwide. TPM is present in fewer than 50 countries in the world (in most western countries it has only a skeleton presence with just a few churches). There are 195 countries in the world. This means, people of nearly 75% of the world countries don’t have a true church (such nations as China with 1.3 billion people). How is this possible? God is not a partial God to reveal the truth only to a select few nations (and a select few races such as Indians and Sri Lankans). Anyone with a little common sense can see through this. Get your perception about the body of Christ (the Universal Church) correct and then go on to judge other churches.
Andrew Bhaskar
TO; DEAR BROTHER GEORGE SAMUEL,
TPM’s Unscriptural Teaching on Holy Communion
The Bible Calls Holy communion as the table of the Lord (1. Cor. 10:21), as such, any born-again and baptized member is eligible to participate in his or her father’s table. If the Holy Communion is the table of the Lord, then we must follow the rules and regulations of the Bible to participate in that table of the Lord. But the TPM church seems to believe and act as if it is the table of its own denomination. Therefore, it has formed its own rules and regulations in this regard.
Thus for example they say that those who take medicine should not take Holy Communion for they teach medicine defiles the body which is the temple of God. But there is not one single verse in the whole Bible that states medicine defiles the body of the man. This is another wrong teaching that comes out of the fertile imagination of the TPM leaders. Thank God they don’t have a rule that those who take medical treatment should not serve Holy Communion. If that was so, all those TPM Pastors and elders who go to the doctors to fix their teeth and prescription for their eyes will not be is a position to serve at the table of the Lord.
Moreover, almost all their workers and believers take medicated water (Chlorinated water) on a daily basis. If they really believe that taking medicine defiles one’s body and that those who take medicine will not be raptured at the coming of the Lord then they would immediately stop taking the Corporation water which they very well know is medicated. Thus the whole teaching in this regard is self contradictory and hypocritical.
The Denial of Communion to Those Who Take Communion in other Pentecostal Churches!
There is another cultish practice of the TPM church which announces during their communion services that their communicant members should not take communion in any other Pentecostal church. This is another proof to show that the TPM church does not treat the Holy Communion as the table of the Lord, but as the table of their own denomination. If they really believe that it is the table of the Lord, then they do not have the right to stop any blood-washed water baptized child of God from participating in his Father’s table. They need to realize that nobody has the right to build walls around the table of the Lord.
If the TPM church truly realizes it is part of the general assembly of the Body of Christ it will never say if you take communion in the table of our denomination then you cannot participate in the Lord’s Table at any other denomination. We need to pray that the Lord will enlighten the spiritual understanding of our TPM brethren that they will get a right vision of the whole body of Christ.
NOTE:
Of course every time the Holy Communion is served the participants need to be told that it is the table of our Holy God and that no one should participate unworthily in the table, and that a man should examine himself and get cleansed by the blood of the Lamb before he takes the Holy Communion.
It must be emphasized that the worthiness or otherwise of a person participating in the table of the Lord cannot be based on the denomination he belongs to. It is the table of the Lord and not that of any denomination.
TAKEN FROM ” TO TPM WITH LOVE” WRITTEN BY DR. DAVID PAUL.
FOR YOUR FREE & POST PAID COPY WRITE TO :
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WHEN YOU WRITE PL. INCLUDE YOUR POSTAL ADDRESS AND PHONE NUMBER.
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Bob,
I have been reading your blogs with great intrest.
Thanks for your graceful explanations.
God bless.
Sam.
CHICO AND THE lamb on mount ZION.
I was not refering to the Lamb of God. I was taking a shot at the TPM literal interpretaion of certain portions of scripture, to prove their point.
How can anyone not appreciate the Lamb of God,who has already perfected us by His sacrifice on Calvary. There is no more sacrifice needed. WE STAND COMPLETE IN HIM NOW. LET OUR MINDS BE RENEWED, AND LET HIS WISDOM REVELATION, AND UNDERSTANDING BECOME A REALITY IN THE SPIRIT OF OUR MINDS. tHIS KNOWLEDGE CHANGES US FROM GLORY TO GLORY. YOU CANNOT DO ANYTHING MORE.
IF YOU ARE GOING TO BE ACCEPTED BY ANYTHING YOU DO,THEN GRACE IS NOT GRACE!!.
THE LAMB OF GOD HAS DONE IT ALL, AND I AM COMPLETE IN HIM!! WHAT A GLORIOUS TRUTH.
THIS WILL BE DIFFUCULT FOR THOSE BOUND BY, ONE MAN’S PERSONAL REVELATIONS AND LEGALISM TO FATHOM. GOD IS NOT UP THERE GIVING US BROWNIE POINTS!! HIS GRACE IS SUFFICENT. IT TOOK ME A LONG TIME TO UNDERSTAND AND ACCEPT THIS, AFTER LEAVING TPM. THE SHACKLES ARE BROKEN,AND THE LAMB OF GOD HAS DONE IT ALL!!! HALLEUJAH, AMEN AND AMEN.
To those who were offended, I say I am sorry.
I hope you see my point.
I shall return.
Sam.
DEAR GSR,
In my letter to you dated I had asked you to give the name of that married pastor who lives with his wife. But you haven’t given so far.
It is very difficult give the names of such persons if there is none like that. If it were true I thought of writing a letter of congrats to Pastor Wilson, the Chief Pastor of TPM.
” IN ONE OF YOUR LETTERS YOU HAVE WRITTEN THAT THE PASTOR OF THE TPM CHURCH THAT YOU ATTEND IN BANGALORE IS A MARRIED PERSON WHO LIVES WITH HIS WIFE. YOU HAVE ALSO MENTIONED HE GOT MARRIED IN CHENNAI.
THIS IS INCREDIBE. I SHALL BE GRATEFUL TO YOU IF YOU COULD KINDLY GIVE ME HIS NAME AND THE FAITH HOME HE PASTORS IN BANGALORE.”
THANKS
DAVID
DEAR GSR,
CORRECTION;
In my letter to you dated ADUST 28, 09 I had asked you to give the name of that married pastor who lives with his wife. But you haven’t given so far.
It is very difficult give the names of such persons if there is none like that. If it were true I thought of writing a letter of congrats to Pastor Wilson, the Chief Pastor of TPM.
” IN ONE OF YOUR LETTERS YOU HAVE WRITTEN THAT THE PASTOR OF THE TPM CHURCH THAT YOU ATTEND IN BANGALORE IS A MARRIED PERSON WHO LIVES WITH HIS WIFE. YOU HAVE ALSO MENTIONED HE GOT MARRIED IN CHENNAI.
THIS IS INCREDIBE. I SHALL BE GRATEFUL TO YOU IF YOU COULD KINDLY GIVE ME HIS NAME AND THE FAITH HOME HE PASTORS IN BANGALORE.”
THANKS
DAVID
A correction
Let me correct myself on my statement regarding John MacArthur’s position on celibacy. I was relying on a secondhand source which quoted him out of context. After checking his first hand writings it seems his position is different. Let me quote,
“But I believe this: I believe the gift of celibacy equals being totally content to be single. Ok? Totally content, totally fulfilled, and furthermore, for the purpose of spiritual ministry. The gift of celibacy is not something that comes upon you by default. “Well, I’ve tried 13 of them and they all said no. I must have the gift.” No, that’s not the gift. That’s not the gift. The gift of celibacy is complete contentment to be single for the purpose of ministry because you are drawn to a ministry.”
http://www.biblebb.com/files/macqa/70-12-3.htm
Response to Bro. Bob’s post on August 30, 2009 at 5:58 am
Some of the issues raised in this post have been addressed in earlier posts. So continuing with what is left out:
However, I associate myself with Pastor Freddy’s (whom I hold in high regard) view that Alwinims is from the pit.
This statement, I find, is self refuting. If indeed Pastor Freddy meant the existing TPM doctrines as ‘Alwinism’ and commented them as “from pit”, then I think it raises a lot of questions regarding his sincerity and credibility and will make it difficult to hold him in “high regard”. Pastor Freddy was the chief pastor of this Mission for 11 years after the excommunication of Alwin. If he had thought that the TPM doctrines on celibacy and Zion are “from the pit” then he could have done something to revert it. Regarding celibacy I can agree that it could have been difficult for him to revert as there were already a lot of celibate (predominant) ministers in TPM. But the doctrine on Zion is something that he could have easily reverted. If he had started preaching an inclusivist doctrine on Zion, that would not have caused any ‘falling away’ of believers. Secondly even if such was the case it would have been better to lose some members than holding on to a ‘devilish doctrine’. Or he should have maintained his integrity by stepping out of the church.
To brand some doctrines as “from the pit” and to be the most senior minister of the same doctrines for over a decade seems very contradictory to me.
In that sense, I find it better to doubt the authenticity of this statement ascribed to him rather than doubting his sincerity. I believe he is quoted out of context here. Pastor Alwin preached many other extra-TPM doctrines including Edenic perfection. If Pastor Freddy’s comment is regarding such doctrines, I perfectly agree to it. Hence a statement that “Pastor Freddy called Alwin’s doctrines as from the pit” without its context and scope is very misleading. We need to know very specifically the doctrines he was referring to.
(By the way, I do not find arguments based on unverifiable history as important as arguments based on Scripture)
Response to George’s comment on September 1, 2009 at 2:55 (point #2)
Luke 14:25& 26
“25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, 26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.”
The key assertion made was that the above message is applicable only to those wishing to be full time ministers. Please consider the following:
1. Jesus was addressing a great multitude; therefore, the message applied to the great multitude, not only to potential fulltime ministers out of the whole multitude.
2. “If ANY MAN comes to me”. ANY MAN does not mean only full time ministers. ANY MAN means ANYONE who comes to Jesus.
3. Based on church history, we know that the message applied to all Christians. During the early persecutions, every Christian had to make a choice to save themselves and their family by rejecting Jesus or to forsake all that they had including their lives for the sake of Christ. Multitudes of early Christians, not only fulltime ministers, adhered to this teaching of Jesus, forsook their lives, and accepted martyrdom. Many Christians (not just full time ministers) in Orissa recently followed this teaching of Jesus and accepted martyrdom. This message of Jesus was applicable to the first century Christians, to the Christians in Orissa, and to us today, not just to TPM ministers or fulltime ministers. Again, this message of Jesus applies to anyone who wishes to be a learner (disciple or follower) Jesus.
On September 12, 2009 at 7:22 am a very serious and troubling argument regarding credibility and sincerity was raised. I am reluctant to discuss this issue on a public forum, but let me say the following.
Anyone who is aware of the history of TPM knows that Pastor Freddy did not agree with Alwin’s (TPM’s) stipulation of celibacy on clergy and Zion doctrine. After Alwin was excommunicated, a few pastors who had good understanding of the scriptures vigorously taught that Alwin’s Zion doctrine and stipulation of celibacy on clergy was unscriptural. They had Freddy’s covering at that time. Even today, a few pastors in TPM privately acknowledge that TPM’s Zion doctrine is false. Wilson, Wesley & Michael Thomas give TPM ministers choice to marry and live in conjugal relationship or to remain celibate in the Americas. In addition, in many cases married ministers have oversight over unmarried ministers in the Americas (source: Michael Thomas’ e-mail in To TPM with Love).
TPM’s Zion doctrine and stipulation of celibacy for clergy are scripturally untenable.
1. TPM’s Zion doctrine: TPM interprets the phrase “undefiled by women” to mean marriage defiles a person (Rev 14:4). The word of God clearly declares that marriage does not defile a person(Heb 13:4)
2. Stipulating celibacy: Alwin’s doctrine of stipulating celibacy for clergy is a doctrine of devils and seducing spirits (1 Tim 4:1-3)
Dear Jacob,
Thanks for your questions. You wanted to know how I knew that Alwin was embarrassed. Well, one of the people (whose name I withheld) who questioned Alwin was a family friend and that is how I know.
Math 19:12 “For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.”
1. “For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb” — some people are born impotent
2. “and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men”– some are castrated by men
3. “and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake”– some remain unmarried to spend more quality time with the Lord and to serve Him w/o family responsibility.
4. “He that is able to receive it, let him receive it”– Jesus was acknowledging the fact that not everyone is able to receive this “gift” of celibacy, but some are. Stated differently, not every one can remain unmarried, but those who are able to remain unmarried and serve God, let them do so.
Paul talks about this group of people who chooses to remain unmarried for the sake of the Gospel in 1Cor7. Paul said these people are given the “gift” of celibacy and they should walk in that calling (1cor7:7)-in other words, Paul corroborated this teaching of Jesus.
However, Holy Sprit (through Paul) explicitly and unambiguously enunciates that it is a devilish doctrine to forbid marriage in 1Tim4:1-3. I hope you understand the distinction. If a person chooses to remain unmarried to serve the Lord more effectively, that would be fine and appropriate. However, having a church doctrine that forbids marriage (or eating meat) is a devilish doctrine.
In order to be compliant with the scriptures, TPM should freely allow both married and unmarried pastors. If I understand Michael Thomas’s email correctly, they do allow that in the Americas.
God bless
Luke 14:25& 26
“25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, 26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.”
As I understand it, the assertion that was made on September 1, 2009 at 2:55 pm was that the term “disciple” in this passage refers to clergy and not to laity; hence, the implication is that all fulltime ministers must be celibate. This cannot be the case since the term disciple refers to all true (learners) followers of Christ, including clergy and laity.
If this passage were incorrectly interpreted to stipulate celibacy for clergy, it would violate 1 Tim 4:1-3, which unequivocally declares that stipulating celibacy is a doctrine of devils. If this passage were mandating celibacy for fulltime ministers, Apostle Paul would not have instructed that a pastor should be the husband of one wife (1 Tim 3:12, Tit 1:6). Finally, if celibacy were a requirement for fulltime ministry, TPM leadership would be in direct violation of any such requirement due to ordaining fulltime married ministers in the Americas.
Again, Luke 14:25, 26, & 33 is applicable to all believers and it is a commandment, which states that we the disciples of Jesus should not love anyone or anything more than we love Jesus (Matt 10:37-39). Luke 14:25, 26 & 33 cannot be used to stipulate celibacy for gospel workers.
Response to Bro. Bob’s post on September 12, 2009 at 2:21 pm
1. The first point is regarding whether the command in Luke 14:26-33 applies to all or only to full time ministers of God. I had given a a lot of reasons to conclude that the specific instruction in these verses are for those who accept discipleship in relation to ministry. In short, that included the Scriptural parallels of the two parables that Jesus tells in this regard (the parable of the one building a tower and the parable of one going out for war), the examples of how the Apostles left their father, net etc. or in the words of Peter “left their all” and followed Jesus, the examples of some others who wanted to be disciples and were turned away (the one who wanted to go and bury his father and the one who wanted to bid farewell to his relatives) etc.
To prove the counter what’s being currently put forward to me is the term “If any man comes to me…” as part of the argument that “any man” refers to all, and not just the ministers. In light of the points mentioned in the above paragraph I do not see any logical reason to think that this applies to all. The term “If any man” obviously refers to only a few among the multitude, otherwise Jesus must have said “all of you”.
To illustrate with an example, if a teacher tells the class that “If anybody wants to be a volunteer come and meet me in the staff room” it simply doesn’t mean that she wants all to be volunteers or all should go and meet her. The “anybody” refers only to “anybody” who wants to be a volunteer, and the privileges is open to all.
Similarly when reading the whole verse of Luke 14:26 it refers to any man who wants to be his disciple; the discipleship is specifically stressed. Jesus didn’t say those who don’t forsake all is not worthy of him (as in Matthew 10) but only that he cannot be his disciple. Hence “if any man” in this verse simply points to the fact that the call to a discipleship ministry doesn’t show favoritism and is open to all and only those who want to be in such ministry need forsake all.
Let me finally make a statement to make it clear,
“If any one of you come to TPM and forsake not all he has cannot be a pastor” (Just an example to show the scope of “any one”)
Another point was made from church history to show that even believers forsook their all in the face of persecution. Again such a reverse argument (instead of understanding a verse and applying it, this argument finds an application and then understands the verse) cannot prove anything. These Christians forsook their all because they were forced to make their choice beween their faith and their life. They were just not doing it to be a disciple of Jesus. When faced with an exclusive choice every believer will have to choose Christ rather than his dear ones, but Luke 14:26-33 doesn’t mention persecution or any other precondition to “forsake all”.
2. The second point is regarding Pastor Freddy and TPM history. Let me make my stand clear that I believe in ecclesiastical interpretation of Scripture and not on personal interpretation. I do not find any Scriptural parallel for the church to have a particular doctrine and its followers to have their on doctrines each. That is not Biblical. That is why the early church used to conduct councils or synods whenever a doctrinal issue came up. Though at every point different bishops had different ideas, finally it is the church’s decision that prevailed. If anybody wanted to dissociate himself from the church’s doctrine he was supposed to leave the church (just as Tertullian did) and not run parallel doctrines inside the church. During the Arian controversy in the 4th century, at a time, there were equal number of bishops who supported the Arian and Trinitarian doctrines. But when the Nicene council ruled in favor of Trinitarianism many of the Arain bishops, except two, chose to be with the church. From then on they were champions of the Orthodox faith, a classic example of the one who changed his position being Eusebius of Caesarea.
TPM pastors are not robots programmed to act and talk in some predefined ways. They all have their own understanding and interpretation of the Scriptures from very liberal to very conservative. But they all conform to the larger umbrella of the doctrine of the church. The only acceptable way a pastor can dissociate from a doctrine is by stepping out of the church. Until he does that he has to be considered as a minister of the church doctrine. We cannot, in a serious discussion, consider what individual pastors told someone in secret.
3. The third point is regarding TPM married workers in the USA. If you refer back to former TPM pastor (USA) David Barlock’s post on June 10, 2009 at 11:55 am, the matter is clear.
Even the married ministers are expected to live a celibate life. If they are not living in consecration they will be limited to minor resposibilities in the church and never will be considered of equivalent authority to celibate ministers. I think David Barlock as a former pastor in USA is right in that point.
@all
A comment regarding Sam Alan’s post August 29, 2009 at 11:36 am
That post was subjected to unnecessary criticism. In my view that post was nothing more than a Joke.
Please note the standard usage:
1. “lamb” refers to the animal
2. “Lamb” refers to Jesus.
Sam did not capitalize the first letter of the word; hence, a careful reader would have concluded that it was a reference to a literal lamb, not the symbolic one. Moreover, from the humorous context of his message it was adequately clear that it was simply a joke. In conclusion, other notions that some of you imputed to him, I believe, is totally inconsistent and rebutted by the non-capital “l“ in the word “lamb”, the humorous context of the post, and the sincerity of all other posts he has submitted.
“Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father;” (1 Tim 5:1)
@Biju Philip
Your comment, “I have been hunting information about this Alvin ever since I heard that he fell for a dissolute reason…” prompts me to make a comment. There was a book written by Frank Williams regarding this issue soon after Alwin was expelled from then CPM. Pastor Alwin’s attorney threatened to sue Frank if he released the book. Frank’s book was accurate and factual in that he had all the supportive documents; hence, he essentially challenged Alwin’s lawyer to go right ahead and initiate litigation and released the book. Unfortunately, Pastor A.C. Thomas banned the book and as far as I know only 5 copies of the book were sold in India (or Kerala) and one ended up in home. However, that book is not in circulation.
To All Beloved TPMites………..
TPM’S UNSCRIPTURAL TEACHING ON HOLY COMMUNION
The Bible Calls Holy communion as the Table of the Lord (1. Cor. 10:21), as such, any born-again and baptized member is eligible to participate in his or her Father’s table. If the Holy Communion is the table of the Lord, then we must follow the rules and regulations of the Bible to participate in that table of the Lord. But the TPM church seems to believe and act as if it is the table of its own denomination. Therefore, it has formed its own rules and regulations in this regard.
Thus for example they say that those who take medicine should not take Holy Communion for they teach medicine defiles the body which is the temple of God. But there is not one single verse in the whole Bible that states medicine defiles the body of the man. This is another wrong teaching that comes out of the fertile imagination of the TPM leaders. Thank God they don’t have a rule that those who take medical treatment should not serve Holy Communion. If that were so, all those TPM Pastors and elders who go to the doctors to fix their teeth and get prescription for their eyes will not be in a position to serve at the table of the Lord.
Moreover, almost all their workers and believers take medicated water (Chlorinated water) on a daily basis. If they really believe that taking medicine defiles one’s body and that those who take medicine will not be raptured at the coming of the Lord then they should immediately stop taking the Corporation water which they very well know is medicated. Thus the whole teaching in this regard is self contradictory and hypocritical.
THE AUDACITY DENIAL OF COMMUNION TO THOSE WHO TAKE COMMUNION IN OTHER PENTECOSTAL CHURCHES!
This is another cultish practice of the TPM church which announces during their communion services that their communicant members should not take communion in any other Pentecostal church. This is another proof to show that the TPM church does not treat the Holy Communion as the table of the Lord, but as the table of their own denomination. If they really believe that it is the table of the Lord, then they do not have the right to stop any blood-washed water baptized child of God from participating in his Father’s table. They need to realize that nobody has the right to build walls around the table of the Lord.
If the TPM church truly realizes it is part of the general assembly of the Body of Christ it will never say if you take communion in the table of our denomination then you cannot participate in the Lord’s Table at any other denomination. We need to pray that the Lord will enlighten the spiritual understanding of our TPM brethren that they will get a right vision of the whole body of Christ.
NOTE:
Of course every time the Holy Communion is served the participants need to be told that it is the table of our Holy God and that no one should participate unworthily in the table, and that a man should examine himself and get cleansed by the blood of the Lamb before he takes the Holy Communion.
It must be emphasized that the worthiness or otherwise of a person participating in the table of the Lord cannot be based on the denomination he belongs to. It is the table of the Lord and not that of any denomination.
TAKEN FROM ” TO TPM WITH LOVE” WRITTEN BY DR. DAVID PAUL.
FOR YOUR FREE & POST PAID COPY WRITE TO :
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WHEN YOU WRITE PL. INCLUDE YOUR POSTAL ADDRESS AND PHONE NUMBER.
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An observation regarding George’s post dated…August 31, 2009
“It is clear from the last part that he agrees to the TPM interpretation of “they who have not defiled themselves with women”. Hence to say that this is the fertile imagination of Pastor Alwin and is not supported by church history is totally false.” (George)
This conclusion supports Sam Alan’s comment that TPM’s doctrines came from the volumes of books Pastor Alwin read from Dallas Theological Seminary. It is reasonable to conclude that Alwin read the teachings of Montanism, a movement labeled as heresy by the early church fathers, and the erroneous interpretation of Rev 14 by other writers to create TPM’s doctrines. TPM falsely claims that the celibacy/ Zion doctrines, etc. are the deep revelations given to TPM saints. These so-called “TPM revelations” were taught by fringe groups (Montanism and other writings) during the early days of Christianity and the church fathers almost unanimously labeled these as heresies. TPM continues to teach these unscriptural doctrines that were labeled as heresies by the early church fathers and calls them “deeper truths”. What a sad situation!!!
Clergy and Celibacy
1 Tim 4:1-3 declares that any church doctrine that stipulates celibacy for anyone (including clergy or laity) is a doctrine of devils and seducing spirits and Tit 1:6 & 1 Tim 3:2 states that a pastor must be the “husband of one wife”.
Thus, according to the scriptures, celibacy is not a requirement of ministers, rather stipulating celibacy is a doctrine of devils and seducing spirits.. Thus, if anyone or any organization claims that celibacy is a requirement for ministry, he is showing blatant disregard for the Word of God.
What is the view of TPM leadership regarding celibacy and clergy?
Pastor Paul was a married man and as far as I know, Harry and Dora were born in the faith home. Pastor Paul was the one who ordained Pastor K.E. Abraham, the founder of IPC and a married man (Pastor Paul’s biography). Pastor Freddy did not hold the view that celibacy was a requirement for ministry for he was the one who officiated the marriage of Pastor Manohar.
What is the view of Wilson, Wesley and Michael Thomas regarding celibacy for the Americas?
“They, also in many cases, have oversight and leadership over other married ministers. They are by no means restricted in their ministries because of the fact that they are married. In my 28 years in the ministry we have had 4 marriages of our single ministers, at least on of them was officiated by myself. You may be surprised to learn that we have had about 7 children born into our ministerial families, in our faith homes here in the Americas (Michael Thomas’s email from To TPM with Love)
Thus, the current TPM leadership (Pastors Wilson, Wesley & Michael Thomas) do not seem to hold the view that celibacy is a requirement for fulltime ministry at least in the Americas.
Therefore, I wonder whose view it is that a few TPM believers are attempting to defend when they assert that celibacy is a requirement for fulltime workers. Obviously, it is not the view expressed by the Word of God (1 Tim 3:2 & 4:3), Pastor Paul, Pastor Freddy Paul, Pastor Michal Thomas, and Pastor Manohar; neither is it the view held by Pastors Wilson and Wesley for the Americas.
Therefore, TPM believers need not feel obligated to defend late Pastor Alwin’s heresy of stipulating celibacy for workers. As Christians, our loyalty should be to the Word of God, not to late Pastor Alwin’s heresy. I would further hope that the TPM believers would support and encourage the current leadership to grand the option of marriage to TPM workers in the “East”.
“The present TPM leaders now know that Pastor Alwin’s teaching of forcing celibacy on full time workers is wrong, but they know if they change their present teaching and practice in this regard in the East, the majority of the workers or believers there will rise up against them. (Those leaders know they are riding on tigers and, therefore, there is nothing they could do about it.)” (To TPM with Love by David Paul).
God bless
TO;
DEAR BROTER GEORGE SAMUEL, (GSR)
In your letter Bro. Bob Alexander dated August 28, 09 you have stated and I quote,
” The third point is regarding TPM married workers in the USA. If you refer back to former TPM pastor (USA) David Barlock’s post on June 10, 2009 at 11:55 am, the matter is clear.”
“Even the married ministers are expected to live a celibate life. If they are not living in consecration they will be limited to minor resposibilities in the church and never will be considered of equivalent authority to celibate ministers. I think David Barlock as a former pastor in USA is right in that point.”
The statement only shows how desperate you are to defend the anti Scriptural doctrines of TPM regarding the celibacy of workers.
When Brother Bob Alexander proved you through the Word that the Bible does not support the teaching that full time ministers must practice celibacy you had no answer. Not only you, the whole TPM church has no answer.
Also, when Brother Bob said that in the west the TPM workers get married in the Faith Home and are allowed to lead a nice Christian family life and children are born them. You had no way of answering him.
Instead of admitting they you have NO DEFENCE FOR THIS BIG CONTRADICTION BETWEEN THE CHURCHES OF THE EAST AND AMERICAS you have quoted a Pastor in the west who had left the church. Usually TPM refers to any one who has left the church as FALLEN MAN OR A BACKLIDER.
I know they refer to me as a fallen man . I still love them and pray for them.
You are forced to stoop to the level of quoting a man who has left your church long back, for you have no other support.
I give below the words of YOUR PRESENT chief pastor for the West in this regard. PRESENTLY HE IS THE OVERSEER OF THE NEW TESTAMENT CHURCHES (TPM) IN USA, CANADA AND SOUTH AMERICAN CHURCHES.
” HERE, IN THE AMERICAS WE HAVE BOTH MARRIED FAMILIES. IN OUR MINISTRY, AND UNMARRIED. FOR EXAMPLE IN JULY OF 2006, SEVEN SINGLE PERSONS AND ALSO TWO FAMILIES FROM OUR CHURCHES IN THE AMERICAS, WERE ORDAINED INTO THE FULL TIME MINISTRY( BY OUR CHIEF PASTOR FROM INDIA, PASTOR WILSON, I MIGHT ADD !! )
ALTHOUGH THERE MIGHT BE TIMES WHEN AN HUSBAND AND A WIFE COULD SERVE IN DIFFERENT FAITH HOMES (VOLUNTARILY), THAT HAS NOT BEEN OUR CUSTOM IN THE AMERICAS.
THE HUSBANDS AND THE WIVES AND THEIR CHILDREN IN THE MINISTRY HERE, ARE TOGETHER IN THE SAME FAITH HOMES. IN MY 28 YEARS OF MINISTRY IN THE WEST, I HAVE NOT KNOWN IT TO BE TO OTHERWISE.
MANY OF THE FAMILIES IN THE MINISTRY ARE LEADING OUR LARGER ASSEMBLIES HERE. THEY PREACH IN OUR CONVENTIONS( EVEN IN INDIA, WHEN THEY VISIT THERE), THEY GIVE BIBLE STUDIES TO ALL OF THE OTHER MINISTERS IN OUR MINISTERS’ COFERENCES HELD IN THE AMERICAS.
THEY ALSO , IN MANY CASES HAVE OVER SIGHT AND LEADERSHIP OVER OTHER UNMARRIED MINISTERS. THEY ARE BY NO MEANS RESTRICTED IN THEIR MINISTRIES BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT THEY ARE MARRIED.———–YOU MAY BE SURPRISED TO LEARN THAT WE HAVE HAD ABOUT SEVEN CHILDREN BORN INTO MINISTRIAL FAMILIES, IN OUR FAITH HOMES HERE IN THE AMERICAS”.
( Taken from “TO TPM WITH LOVE” by Dr. David Paul. This book available to all who ask for it , FREE AND POST PAID).
PLEASE LET ME KNOW , BROTHER GEORGE, DO YOU HAVE ANY MORE DEFENCE TO DEFEND THE UNDEFENDABLE.
THESE ARE THE WORDS OF PASTOR MICHAEL THOMAS, YOUR OWN OVERSEER IN THE AMERICAS, CANADA AND SOUTH AMERICAN CHURCHES.
THIS MAKES IT VERY CLEAR THE DOUBLE GAME TPM IS PLAYING.
MY DEAR BROTHER IN THE LORD , YOU AND I HAVE ONLY ONE LIFE. SHOULD WE SPEND THAT ONE LIFE DEFENDING THE ANTI SCRIPTURAL DOCTRINES OF TPM , WHICH WERE INVENTED BY THE LATE PASTOR ALWIN?
REMEMBER PASTOR RAMAKUTTY PAUL , THE FOUDER OF CPM LED A NORMAL CHRISTIAN FAMILY LIFE AFTER THE FOUNDING OF THE CHURCH. TWO CHILDREN WERE BORN TO HIM AFTER HE STARTED TPM.
SHOULD WE ENCOURAGE OUR CHILDREN TO GO BY THIS MAN MADE TEACHINGS?
DANIEL MANICKAM
“
Bob,
Don’t defend lewdness.
It’s not a rebuke, indeed it’s an intreat by indication.
But I would say this, even for our own father Bible does not recommend an unconditional heeding.
It says in the Lord, for this is right(Eph 6-1)
I honestly don’t know whether his comment is in the Lord It appears you consider it as a Joke, but my first reaction was
Ephesians 5:4 “Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking” Now please don’t explain the context of this verse. Please…(people’s difference of opinion originates when context of a Bible verse is explored)
I personally feel casual attitude or being humorous is the best part of life sometime. It relaxes muscle and reduces stress.
But being funny with God’s orientation? I don’t know about that……. by the way If you have the copy of the book you mentioned would you mind sharing it ?
Thanks Bob. You seem to be the only person,who knows the difference between the lamb and the Lamb of GOD. I am beginning to wonder if gsr has a sense of humor. God bless him his unkind remarks.
Sam.
I shall return.
@all
I. Many of the parables and bible passages have been misinterpreted to claim that celibacy is a requirement for fulltime ministry. I assume these writers are sincere in their intentions, but are somewhat confounded by some passages in the bible that may appear to suggest celibacy on cursory reading. If I may, let me provide a guideline for interpreting parables and scriptural passages that may seem to have dual or multiple meanings.
Any parable or bible passage that appear to have dual or multiple meanings must be interpreted in a manner that does not contradict the clear, unambiguous teachings of the bible in a holistic manner. Let us, therefore, examine what the bible declares about marriage/celibacy:
1. A pastor must be the husband of one wife (Tit 1:6, 1 Tim 3:2)
2. Marriage is honorable in all and sex within marriage is not defilement (Heb 13:4)
3. Peter, brothers of Jesus: James, Joses, Simon, and Judas, and the remaining apostles were married and their wives accompanied them on the mission field(1 Cor 9:5)
4. Any church doctrine that stipulates celibacy is a doctrine of devils and seducing spirits (1 Tim 4:1-3)
5. All of us, married and unmarried Christians, have spiritually come to Zion (Heb 12:22 )
6. The high priests in the Old Testament were married and the office of the high priest continued in the lineage of Aaron (Num 3:10)
7. Christians have a choice to marry or to remain single based on the “gift” and calling they have (1 Cor 7 & Matt 19:12)
8. The whole message of the gospel of Jesus Christ or the grace of God is that justification (right standing with God)[going to New Jerusalem, Zion, etc] is obtained by grace through faith, not by our “works” of celibacy or anything else for that matter—it is a free gift.
Therefore, any parable or passage that may seem to have multiple meaningS must be interpreted in such a way that they do not contradict the clear, unambiguous message of the bible. I realize all of us are in the process of learning the scriptures and growing in the Lord regardless of our age; therefore, I trust all of us, Christians, here are willing to change our views as we are confronted with the truth.
@ George & all
The parables and passages you mentioned earlier have dual meanings on cursory examination; therefore, I encourage you to study those parables and scriptures apart from Pastor Alwin’s interpretations. For lack of time, I will not address all the passages you mentioned, but I will give you an example. For example, you provided 2 Tim 2:4 in support of celibacy, “No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a SOLDIER.”
Soldiers have homes, bank accounts, wives, cars, lands, friends just like civilians, but they have a different level of commitment. Again, we cannot use these verses to stipulate celibacy for clergy. Therefore, please study the rest of the scriptures TPM gives in support of celibacy in a holistic manner. Pastor Alwin used these verses to stipulate celibacy on the uneducated and scripturally illiterate people of TPM in the early part of 1900’s and TPM continues that practice, but we do not have to be deceived by late Pastor Alwin’s teachings.
@all
II. Now, let me address the issue of celibacy and clergy from a different angle.
A. What does the bible say about marriage/celibacy and the priests?
1. A pastor must be the husband of one wife (Tit 1:6, 1 Tim 3:2)
2. Marriage is honorable in all and sex within marriage is not defilement (Heb 13:4)
3. Peter, brothers of Jesus: James, Joses, Simon, and Judas, and the remaining apostles were married and their wives accompanied them on the mission field(1 Cor 9:5)
4. Any church doctrine that stipulates celibacy is a doctrine of devils and seducing spirits (1 Tim 4:1-3)
5. All of us, married and unmarried Christians, have spiritually come to Zion (Heb 12:22 )
6. The high priests in the Old Testament were married and the office of the high priest continued in the lineage of Aaron (Num 3:10)
7. Christians have a choice to marry or to remain single based on the “gift” and calling they have (1 Cor 7 & Matt 19:12)
8. The whole message of the gospel of Jesus Christ or the grace of God is that justification (right standing with God)[going to New Jerusalem, Zion, etc] is obtained by grace through faith, not by our “works” of celibacy or anything else for that matter—it is a free gift.
These passages make it abundantly clear that pastors can be married and it is wrong to demand celibacy from anyone.
B. What is TPM’s official (written) view regarding celibacy and clergy?
A TPM book* correctly interprets 1 Tim 3: 2 and Titus 1:6 as follows: “So, the plain truth is if a married person is to be a servant of God, he should be “the husband of one wife”. The TPM book* correctly interprets the scriptures [1 Tim 4;1-3] by stating that “Forcing marriage or celibacy upon anyone is contrary to scriptures”. The book* also acknowledges that Peter, brothers of Jesus, and the other apostles were married.
Thus, this official TPM doctrinal book* concedes that celibacy is not a requirement for ministry. Then how does TPM get away with stipulating celibacy at least in the “East”? TPM cleverly stipulates celibacy by claiming that ministers must be consecrated, TPM style. I suspect TPM leaders know that they cannot explicitly write down that celibacy is required for ministry because of the verses I provided. Thus, TPM in violation of the scriptures cleverly forbids workers in the “East” to marry through the back door of TPM style consecration.
*TPM book entitled 50 difficult questions(?). Question number 29 on pages 113-119 addresses “Does the Scripture insist that all ministers of the gospel should be married?”
C. What is the official (written) view of current TPM leadership regarding marriage/celibacy in the Americas?
“They, also in many cases, have oversight and leadership over other UNMARRIED ministers. The are by no means restricted in their ministries because of the fact that they are married. In my 28 years in the ministry we have had 4 marriages of our single ministers, at least on of them was officiated by myself. You may be surprised to learn that we have had about 7 children born into our ministerial families, in our faith homes here in the Americas (Michael Thomas’s email from To TPM with Love).
I am truly happy to hear this scriptural view from Pastor Michael Thomas and I hope the ground reality reflects the spirit of the email.
D. Why does TPM demand celibacy from workers in the “East”?
“The present TPM leaders now know that Pastor Alwin’s teaching of forcing celibacy on full time workers is wrong, but they know if they change their present teaching and practice in this regard in the East, the majority of the workers or believers there will rise up against them. (Those leaders know they are riding on tigers and, therefore, there is nothing they could do about it.)” (To TPM with Love by David Paul). Based on Michael Thomas’s email and the statements quoted from the TPM book, I must concur with Dr. David Paul’s statement above. How sad & unfortunate!!!
D. Finally, we do not need to feel obligated to defend the unscriptural practices of TPM by imposing our preconceived notions on biblical passages. Let us reject late Pastor Alwin’s heresies and embrace the pure Word of God.
TPM has been teaching the false doctrines introduced by late Pastor Alwin for almost 80 years and we have essentially been taught that TPM is the only true church; therefore, it is difficult to get disentangled from these heresies. I think ABAS, Sam Alan, and Ray stated that it took them several years of careful and prayerful study of the scriptures to finally get free from the erroneous doctrines of TPM. Therefore, give our bellowed brothers in TPM some time to digest all these things. Many believers and pastors in TPM know that our teachings are erroneous, but they do not have the courage to speak up. Let us pray for them and speak the truth in love.
God bless you all
Marriage celibacy and clergy
TPM takes some parables and passages of the scriptures out of context and misinterprets them to enforce celibacy for clergy under the guise of consecration. In my previous post, I suggested that any parable or verse that may have dual meaning on cursory reading must be interpreted in such a way that it does not contradict the clear and specific instruction regarding the subject being studied. The following verses, Gen 2:18, Num 3:10, Matt 19:12, 1 Cor 7, Tit 1:6, 1 Tim 3:2, Heb 13:4, 1 Cor 9:5, 1 Tim 4:1-3, Heb 12:22, and the larger message of justification by grace through faith apart from “works” should make it clear that we cannot in any way assert that celibacy is a requirement for ministry.
If any TPM believer is still somewhat confused over some of the passages in the bible that TPM uses to enforce celibacy, let us follow the guideline Jesus provided in resolving this matter.
When Jesus spoke against divorce, the Pharisees responded by stating that the scriptures (Moses) allowed divorce. Thus, we have a contradiction: Moses allowing divorce and Jesus speaking against it. Jesus responds by saying that the perfect will of God regarding marriage or divorce is seen in the Garden of Eden and the allowance of divorce by Moses was not the perfect will of God (Mt 19:3-8).
With this teaching, Jesus sets forth a guideline on how to harmonize seemingly conflicting views. That is, if there are seemingly conflicting views in the bible, we go back to how things were in the beginning, in the Garden of Eden.
Thus, in the case of celibacy, we can apply the guideline Jesus set forth to understand the perfect will of God. Our holy God looked at a sinless perfect man Adam, and said he needed to have a wife (Gen 2:18). Therefore, we must conclude that marriage is holy, good, and in the perfect will of God and celibacy is an exception; thus, TPM should not have a policy of stipulating celibacy for clergy under the guise of consecration contrary to the perfect will of God.
God bless
i WROTE THE FOLLOWING ARTICLE FEW YEARS AGO FOR THE MAGAZINE ‘WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY.’ EDITED BY DR DAVID PAUL. HOPE THIS WILL BE A BLWSSING TO ALL WHO READ IT.
_____CHRIST IN YOU THE HOPE OF GLORY.
HUMANS ARE INCOMPLETE BEINGS, CREATED ENTITIES WITHOUT CHRIST IN THEM. PAUL
THE APOSTLE IS THE ONE TO WHOM GOD GAVE THIS GREAT MYSTERY.”TO WHOM GOD
WOULD MAKE KNOWN WHAT IS THE RICHES OF THE GLORY OF THIS MYSTERY AMONG THE
GENTILES; WHICH IS CHRIST IN YOU THE HOPE OF GLORY.” COL 1: 27.
ROMANISM AND SOME LEGALISTIC MOVEMENTS ESTABLISH A GOSPEL BASED ON LAW.
IN THESE LAST DAYS THIS MESSAGE HAS TO BE PROCLAIMED WORLDWIDE.
PEOPLE ALL OVER THE WORLD HAVE COME TO THE UNDERSTANDING OF THE TRUTH THAT
HUMAN BEINGS ARE ONLY COMPLETED BY CHRIST IN THEM, AND THIS UNDERSTANDING IS
A GOD -THING, AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH GOD RAISING UP A MAN OR GOD
STARTING A MOVEMENT OR A DENOMINATION. THE MORE EVIL THE WORLD BECOMES, THE
MORE IMPORTANT IT WILL BE THAT HUMAN BEINGS UNDERSTAND THAT THEY ARE
COMPLETED WHEN THEY ARE IN CHRIST AND THAT THEY COME TO THAT COMPLETION BY
THEIR KNOWLEDGE OF CHRIST IN THEM. A COMPLETED HUMAN BEING CAN LIVE IN A
HELLISH ENVIRONMENT. BY CHRIST IN ME, I HAVE OVERCOME DEATH, HELL AND THE
GRAVE! WHATEVER HAPPENS WE ARE GOING TO MAKE IT; BUT WE NEED TO LEARN
ABOUT THIS CHRIST WHO LIVES IN US. A MULTITUDE OF CHRISTIANS GO AFTER
EVERYTHING IN AN ATTEMPT TO COMPLETE THEMSELVES BECAUSE, THEY DON’T KNOW
THAT CHRIST IN THEM IS THEIR COMPLETION.
THEY BUY EVERY ‘HOW TO’ BOOK; BUT THEY NEVER COME TO KNOW WHO THEY ARE
BECAUSE THEY ARE IGNORANT OF WHAT GOD’S PLAN IS AND WHAT THE GOSPEL SAYS
ABOUT THEM.
PAUL WAS A MAN WHO CAME TO GRIPS WITH THIS MESSAGE OF ‘ CHRIST IN YOU THE
HOPE OF GLORY’ AND HE KNEW WHAT HE WAS DOING. HE INTRODUCED US TO THE FACT
THAT THE GREAT PLAN OF GOD IS FINALLY RESOLVED IN THE MIND. EVERYTHING THAT
HAS TO DO WITH SPIRITUALITY TAKES PLACE IN THE MIND, BECAUSE THERE CANNOT BE
ANY MORE SPIRITUAL GROWTH IN YOUR SPIRIT. YOUR SPIRIT IS PERFECT BECAUSE
CHRIST IS IN YOUR SPIRIT. THE ONLY PLACE OF GROWTH FOR A BORN AGAIN
BELIEVER IS IN THE SOUL-MIND. THAT IS WHERE “FAITH IS THE
SUBSTANCE OF THINGS HOPED FOR AND THE EVIDENCE OF THINGS NOT SEEN.” HEB
11:1. SO THEN FAITH COMES BY HEARING . AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD. ROM
10:17 FAITH AND SPIRITUALITY ALL CENTER IN YOUR THINKING. WE ARE ALL
LEARNING MORE AS WE GO ALONG AND CANNOT DEPEND ON WHAT OTHERS SAY ABOUT THE
SCRIPTURES. SINCE MEN TEACH DIFFERENT IDEAS OUT OF THE BIBLE, WE MUST
HAVE THE SCRIPTURES FIXED IN OUR MIND BY THE HOLY SPIRIT TO GROW IN THE
KNOWLEDGE OF CHRIST.
PAUL IS THE FIRST TO GET US INVOLVED IN THE RENEWAL OF THE MIND. FOUR KEY
WORDS APPEAR IN PAUL’S WRITINGS: KNOWLEDGE, WISDOM, UNDERSTANDING, AND
REVELATION. ALL FOUR REFER TO THE MIND. PAUL SAW SOMETHING NO ONE ELSE HAD
EVER SEEN . HE SAW THAT GOD COULD DO THE ULTIMATE WORK OF GRACE BY PUTTING
CHRIST IN THE HUMAN BEING, YET THE HUMAN BEING MAY NEVER KNOW IT.
CHRISTIANS COULD LIVE THEIR ENTIRE LIVES WITH CHRIST IN THEM AND NEVER KNOW
IT. PAUL’S TEACHING CENTERED ON COMING TO KNOW THAT KNOWING. THAT IS WHY
PAUL GIVES US LESSONS ON BODY SOUL AND SPIRIT.
WE ARE A BODY,WE HAVE A SOUL( OUR MIND, WILL AND EMOTIONS), AND OUR SPIRIT
NOW IS IN UNION WITH CHRIST. WE ARE CHRISTIANS, OR CHRIST-PERSONS.
ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS PAUL DOES IN ALL HIS EPISTLES IS TO TEACH
US THAT THERE ARE THREE DIFFERENT STAGES OR ASPECTS OF SALVATION. THOSE
THREE ASPECTS CONCERNS SPIRIT, SOUL AND BODY.
WHEN A PERSON IS BORN AGAIN, YOU CAN SEPARATE HIS SPIRIT FROM THE REST OF
THE HUMAN BEING BECAUSE IT STANDS PERFECT. WHEN GOD LOOKS AT A PERSON WITH
CHRIST IN HIM, THAT PERSON STANDS PERFECT IN HIS SIGHT. PAUL SAYS IN 1COR
1:30″BUT OF HIM ARE YE IN CHRIST JESUS, WHO IS MADE UNTO US WISDOM, AND
RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND SANCTIFICATION, AND REDEMPTION.” THAT IS WHAT GOD SEES.
WHEN YOU LOOK AT ME, YOU WATCH WHAT I DO. WHEN GOD LOOKS AT ME, HE SEES
JESUS; AND HE SEES WHAT CHRIST HAS DONE TO GIVE HIM THE RIGHT TO SEE JESUS
IN ME. HE SEES CHRIST THROUGH THE CROSS. I HAVE BECOME EVERYTHING NOT ON
MY OWN, BUT THROUGH WHAT JESUS ACCOMPLISHED AT CALVARY. THE SALVATION OF
THE SPIRIT IS COMPLETE. IT IS FINISHED AND YOU CANNOT ADD TO IT. YOU
CANNOT GET MORE OF CHRIST IN YOU. CHRIST CAME TO YOU IN A BIRTHING, NO MORE
IS NEEDED.
, , ONE LITTLE SEED DOES IT ALL, CREATING A NEW PERSON. CHRIST IN YOU
COMES BY “THE INCORRUPTIBLE SEED.” WHEN IT IS JOINED TO THE SPIRIT, IT
CONSTITUTES A FINISHED WORK.
I HAVE ETERNAL LIFE DWELLING IN ME NOW, IN MY SPIRIT; BUT IN MY SOUL I AM
ALWAYS BEING SAVED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT RENEWING MY MIND DAILY. ALSO, WE MUST
REMEMBER THAT IN BODY WE WILL NOT BE SAVED UNTIL THE RESURECTION MORNING.
OUR BODIES WILL BE SAVED IN THE FUTURE. THIS EXPLAINS THE THREE PHASES OF
SALVATION FOUND IN 2 COR 1:9-10
PAUL INTRODUCES US TO WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE ARE BORN AGAIN. THE GOAL OF TRUE
CHRISTIANITY IS TO RELEASE THE CHRIST IN YOU SO THAT THE BODY AND THE SOUL,
WHICH WE CALL THE HUMAN SELF, CAN BE OVERWHELMED AND EXPRESSED BY THE
SPIRIT. ONLY CHRISTIANS WHO HAVE HAD A REVELATION THAT CHRIST IS THEIR
LIFE HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO BECOME WHO GOD CREATED THEM TO BE. IT IS NOT
ENOUGH JUST TO BE SAVED. IF YOU ARE NOT SAVED YOU WILL GO TO HELL. IF YOU
ARE SAVED YOU ARE GOING TO HAVEN REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU KNOW. HOWEVER TO
KNOW WHO YOU ARE IN THIS HUMAN FORM IS A GREAT UNDERSTANDING, AND COMPLETELY
CHANGES YOUR LIFE ON EARTH. GOD CREATED YOU TO BE SOMETHING SPECIAL FOR
HIM. CHRISTIANS WHO DON’T KNOW THE CHRIST IN THEM WILL NEVER COME TO THAT
UNDERSTANDING. MAY THIS LIBERATING TRUTH, BECOME A REALITY IN OUR LIVES.
PLEASE COMMENT. CHRIST IN YOU IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN CELEBACY, AND ZION.
SAM.
I SHALL RETURN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Biju Philip,
In reading your response carefully, I believe I understand why some took umbrage at Sam Alan’s comment.
The younger generation of TPM believers are unfamiliar with the argument used to debunk TPM’s interpretation of Rev 14:4. The argument they use is that TPM takes one verse and interprets part of that verse literally and another part of the same verse figuratively. They say if one is to interpret a verse, at the minimum, interpret the whole verse either figuratively or literally instead of mixing it up. Had I been unfamiliar with these arguments and counter arguments, I may have also misinterpreted Sam Alan’s comment. I will explain TPM’s interpretation of Rev 14:4 sometime in the near future and I believe that will be helpful.
I like to underscore the fact that Sam, in the spirit of Christian love, offered a clarification and an unconditional apology for causing any hurt or misunderstanding.
It has been 50 years since that book was purchased and I have no idea where that copy of the book might be. If I had it, I would have been happy to share it with you. Incidentally, I know two TPM believers in their 70’s who have that book. The only way to get it from them is to pry it off their cold dead hands. The few TPM families who have in-depth knowledge of these incidents do not want this information disseminated.
Response to GSR’s post on August 29, 2009, at 3:50 p.m. for using the parables (one who is building a tower and parable of one going out for war) in support of enforcing celibacy on clergy:
Except the Lord build the house, they labour in vain that build it.
Except the Lord keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain. (Psalm 127:1)
The Lord builds the house and keeps the city. All of us, believers and ministers, are labourers.
My dear friends susan and all,
Do not argue among yourself about the word of God.By the Grace of God only we are saved.In my life I went so many churches,but I found The TPM services truely run according to the word of God,but if you want to grow as a true believer or you want become a partaker of the second coming of Jesus Christ You can get all advices from TPM Church.But I am sure no churches advising like these teaching.eg.TPM pastors are advicing do not watch Telivision.None other churches are advicing so.but lot of TPM believers have their own TV.Likewise from TPM church they are advicing us so many things to live as a good christian.but no other church doing like this.So TPM church is different among other churches.For Jewells and all other matters they are advicing the same thing.They are advicing against worldly fashion,but if you see most belivers are not obeying that please do not accuse the church .What I want to say is If a man want to live a good christian he can get best advice as Jesus taught from this church only.Because this gathering is not conducted according to the will of the people but Holy Sprit.Susan wrote TPM pastors against marriage.That is absolutely wrong.They are conducting so many marriages.Even Hindu Sanyasi’s are unmarried.Why? because they want to more close to God.Most of the married people can’t practise full Gospel as they preach.but an apostle can do the will of God more easily than a married man with purity.do not misunderstand marriage is hindrance to the kingdom of God.God only conducting all marriages.So do not blame others,live a perfect life in front of God.Even now I am in good relation with so many pastors in different churches,but for administration,praise and worship,for songs and every part of in a church activities we should learn from TPM CHURCH.But remember Jesus is coming for holy peopel…wherever you are….TPM churches forcing belivers to live a seperation and for a holy life.we can’t get this from any church.But one thing I can say TPM belivers are not mingling with other church belivers;that thing is not acceptable.
In TPM they teaches us to grow more in faith,not only by hearing but by seeing the pastors dedicated life.but in other churches we can see very few people so,if you want to select a church to worship attend TPM,and the same time respect other churches.
TO
ALL WHO ARE BURDENED FOR TPM,
MOST OF THE IDEAS EXPRESSED THROUGH THIS SITE ARE FULLY BASED ON THE WORD OF GOD . AT THE SAME TIME THEY DO GRACIOUSELY EXPOSE THE ERRONEOUS DOCTRINES OF TPM.
THEY ARE VERY CONVINCING AND POWERFUL. THESE WILL SURELY TOUCH AND TRANSFORM EVERY HONEST AND SINCERE TPM WORKER AND BELIEVER WHO ARE CAUGHT IN THE VORTEX OF CPM’S UNSCRITURAL TEACHINGS AND PRACTICES.
I AM SURE SOME WHO WROTE SO VEHEMENTLY IN SUPPORT OF TPM SEEM TO HAVE LOST THEIR FIRE POWER AND HAVE BECOME ALMOST SILENT.
NOW THROUGH THIS LETTER, I APPEAL TO ALL THE WELL WISHERS OF TPM WHO WOULD LIKE TO HELP OUR MISLED BROTHERS AND SISTERS, TO COME OUT SOME GOOD IDEAS AS TO HOW WE COULD MAKE THESE POWERFUL AND BIBLE BASED THOUGHTS AND REASONINGS EXPERESSED THROUGH THE LETTERS BECOME AVAILABLE TO OUR BELOVED MISLED BRETHREN OF TPM.
PLEASE PRAY ABOUT THIS AND COME OUT WITH YOUR THOUGHTS IN THIS REGARD.
DANIEL
ultimately, for all this hue and cry, teh proof is in eating the pudding, as they say – on that day when jesus comes, who is going to be ready – not the ones that find fault with every which organisation, but those that keep their peace and allow the sprit of holiness deal with them, they will see God: Heb 12 verse 14
” We preach that we may present every man perfect in Christ”
All TPM letter heads even to this day carry this, which was Pastor Alwin’s, brain child.
What do you have besides Alwin’s diabolical interpretation of the scriptures, on Marriage, celebacy, F. Homes and legalism?
Alwin hated flowers, at weddings, and anything beautiful, to him was a sin.
He got all the pastors and workers to
shave their mustaches, while he did not shave his . And there was none to question him, for fear of excommunication, or demotion.
I have shaved and trimmed his mustache many times, as a teenager. Why could’nt he do it himself? If he was sick and weak, I will understand.
Can the personal revelations of a man, perfect every man in Christ?
Sam.
I shall return.
To the preachers and would be preachers.
A recent sermon by my Pastor here at Richmond Pentecostal Church, Richmond Canada.
I have never heard a sermon a sermon like tis in all my life. May this bless all the readers.
********************************
Preaching to Qoheleth. Preaching to the Preacher.
We live in a spectator’s world.
We watch sports on TV.
We read romances and dream of the perfect relationship.
On some sport shows, they have fishing expeditions! I don’t get that; the fun is not watching someone else fish!
Why watch the great cooking show, when you cant taste the food?
So since we are so used to ‘spectating.’ It should be quite easy to listen to this sermon this morning.
I have not heard anyone else preach a sermon like this before.
You can sit back ans “spectate” as I preach to myself.
The Pastor is always telling the congregation what they should do. Prehaps the preacher should get preached at.
Now I hope you’ve noticed that even when I am preaching normally, I try to say”we, “we” and “I’,not you.you.you!”–since the messenger is as sinful as the recipients.
But this morning, I would like to center almost totally on the preacher, the Pastor.
In the book of Ecclesiastes, otherwise titled ‘The preacher, there is person named Qoheleth. In Hebrew Qoheleth means” The Preacher. You will notice this morning’s message is “Preaching to Quoheleth.”
Preaching to the preacher! So Qoheleth, preacher, it is your turn to squirm and get your toes stepped on!
Therefore, you will notice preacher, that first on the list of Peter’s admonitions is the reference to the fact that the flock is under your care, you are not under theirs.
Preachers often get the idea that the church is to serve them, when in reality, you the preacher, are to be the servant. You are the one who gives. You are to be the one who toils.
Sheep don’t care for shepherds, shepherds care for sheep.
You will recall how he said , the Son of man came not to be served, but to serve, and give his life.
You preacher, of all men need to exemplify the truth that ” The distinctive of the Christian is to be the basin and the towel, not the scepter and the crown.”
It was Jesus that washed the disciples feet, not the other way around. And you will note well Qoheleth, that was in the most agonizing hour that he served them in that way.
You MAN of God, must serve and care for people when it is not convenient. When they call you at home. When it is your day off. When they are’nt totally appreciative. Yours is to care, to serve, and to love.
Preacher, remember the Apostle Paul, how he lived this manner of life. Remember how he spent himself on behalf of souls.
Recall how he told the people at Corinth that it’s the fathers who should save up for the children,not children for the Fathers!
And Q0heleth, Peter says he himself served as an overseer, yet went on to say, like Paul that the preacher must not be greedy, but be ready to serve and give.
Not only ready tot serve, said he, but eager! Why Because Peter says, that is the way that God wants it.
In Paul’s Epistles. he used a word that is irritating
to some. He says God has called us to be a servant or slave.
It isn’t lofty! It isn’t noble. Nobody wants to be a slave, or to be walked on, or to have things demanded of him.
But to that calling you have been summoned; you are to serve as a slave to Christ, and “What soever you have done to unto the least of these His brethren, you have done it unto Him!”
Qoheleth, you will do well to remember the immortal words of Dietrich Bonhoffer, who is in the tossing sea of the Hitler years, wrote THE COST OF DISCIPLESHIPH. The first sentence of the first page says” When Jesus calls a person, he bids him come and die.”
You should be like the men on the troopship in 1857. On board were the regiments of the 12th Lancers. But also on board were 124 women and children. When the ship was sinking, there was room only for the women and children, so Major Seaton drew the men up into presentation parade on the deck. There was not so much of a murmur as the ship was going down, for Seaton had given the command, “stand still and die like Englishmen.” And 454 men went down to a sea grave in soldierly. order, firm and steady fashion!
If you call your people to take up the cross preacher, you must show them how to die! You must take the lead! You must show the way! You, Qoheleth, are called by Almighty God, and when he called you it was to die
Light the path! Show the way!
Peter says the flock has been entrusted to your care.
The eternal Judge stands at the door to see how you measure up.
Paul says in 1Cor 4:2 “It is required that those who HAVE BEEN GIVEN A TRUST MUST PROVE FAITHFUL.”
HOW DO YOU STACK UP PREACHER?
Paul was able to say, “follow me as I follow Christ,” and even further, he told the people
at Thessalonica to be “mimics” of him!
Do you want your people doing all the things they see you doing, or do you want them to leave undone all the things they see you leave undone, preacher?
Can you say honestly that you would feel comfortable with them mirroring everything you are to do?
I would remind you qoheleth, that the most powerful method ever found for teaching is that of modeling!!! Jesus took 12 rough men and turned them into the most righteous force the world has ever seen, and his method of teaching was to model in front of them what he said on the Mount!
The Judge stands at the door, Qoheleth! How are you handling your trust?
Recall James the elder said you ‘d be judged more strictly!!
Peter said you are to be an example to the flock!
Are you, as Paul demanded of Timothy, above reproach?
In an age when preachers are dime- a- dozen, and the way is strewn with their failed carcases, let not immorality, power hunger, pride, selfishness, or any other demise ensnare Qoheleth; be above it all! Exhibit holiness! Exhibit righteousness! Exhibit humility! Admit your errors and stupidity!
I charge you Qoheleth,
Preach the word! Be instant in season and out of season. Reprove, rebuke, and encourage with all diligence, for the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine, but will turn away to what their itching ears want to hear. But you man of God, keep your head in all situations, do the work of an Evangelist, discharge all duties of your ministry. Don’t let anyone despise your youth, but set an example for all!
Qoheleth, I would remind you of the word you heard from your General Asst. Supt. Everett Stenhouse entitled”preach as you go.’
Fling him into his office, tear the office sign from the door, and nail on the door “Study.” Take him off the Mailing list, lock him up with his books typewriter and his Bible. Slam him down on his knees before texts, broken hearts, the flippant lives of a superficial flock , and the holy God.
Force him to be the one man in our surfeited communities who knows about God. Throw him in the ring to box with God ’til he learns how short his arms are; engage him to wrestle with God all the night through. Let him come out only when he is bruised and beaten into being a blessing. Set a time clock on him that will imprison him with thought and writing about God for 40 hours a week. Shut his mouth forever spouting ‘remarks’ and stop his tongue always tripping over everything nonessential. Require him to have say something to say before he dare break silence. Bend his knees in the lonesome valley, fire him from the country club membership; burn his eyes with weary study, wreck his emotional poise with worry for God, and make him exchange his pious stance for a humble walk with God and man. Make him spend and spent for the glory of God.
Rip out his telephone, burn up his ecclesiastical success sheets. Refuse his glad hand, and put water in his gas tank of his community buggy. Give him a Bible and tie him to the pulpit, and make him preach the Living word of God. Test him.quiz him; humiliate him for his ignorance of divine things, and shame him for his ignorance of things divine, and shame him for his glib comprehension of finances, batting averages and political in-fighting. Laugh at his frustrated effort to play psychiatrist, scorn his insipid morality, refuse his supine intelligence, ignore his broadmindedness which is only flat headedness, and compel him to be a minister of the word.
Form a choir and raise a chant and haunt him with it night and day with “Sir we would see Jesus.
When at long last, he dares assay the pulpit, ask him if he has a word from God? If he does not then dismiss him and tell him you can read the morning paper, digest the television commentaries. think through the day’s superficial problems, manage the communities myriad drives, and bless assorted baked potatoes, and green beans ad infinitum than he can. Command him not to come until he has read and re-red, written and re-written, until he can stand up, worn and forlorn, and say’ thus saith the Lord.’ Break him across the board of his ill-gotten popularity, smack him hard with own prestige, corner him with questions about God, and cover him with demands for celestial wisdom, give him no escape until he is backed against the wall of the word of God; then sit him down before him and listen to the only word he has left: Gods word. Let him be totally ignorant of the down street gossip, but give him a chapter and order him to walk around it, camp on it, suffer with it, and come at last to speak it backwards and forwards until all he says about it rings with with the truth of eternity.
” And when he is burned out by the flaming word. and when he is consumed at last by the fiery Grace blazing through him, and when he who was privileged to translate the truth of GOD to man is finally transfered from earth to heaven, then bear him away gently, blow a muted trumpet, and lay him down softly, place a two edged sword on his coffin, and raise a tune triumphant, for he was a brave soldier of the word and e’er he died he had become a spokesman for God.
I want to be that man!! I want to be that QOHELETH!
To be above reproach! To be a servant! To be faithful!!
WHY?? WHY?? One, because it is the single highest honor! It is the single most glorious calling. It is single most prestigious trust.
And, furthermore, two, one cannot shake it, you cannot ignore it, you cannot deny it–it burns in your bosom, and blazes in your soul. As Mark Galli writes: “What Pastor does not know discouragement? Sometimes we feel as though we preach in hot, flat stretches; all we see for miles are heat waves floating lazily from the white sand, and perhaps some cacti and lizard or two… as we trudge through the desert of despair, we continue to proclaim to the cacti and lizards. That is why after we have mentally loaded the U- Haul, we mentally reshelf our commentaries. That’s why after we have gone on a preaching strike( for six days), we preach again, and again and again. WE are like Jeremiah: But if I say I will not mention his name, his word is like a fire, a fire shut up in my bones. “I am weary of holding it in; indeed I cannot. In the end the heat within is greater than the heat without. And so so we preach in the relative cool of the desert”
And your job? How about if you pray for me? So that where the shepherd leads–in his faithfulness, in his humility, in his righteousness–the sheep can follow.
Response to Bro. Bob’s post on September 12, 2009 at 2:21 pm
1. TPM’s Zion doctrine: TPM interprets the phrase “undefiled by women” to mean marriage defiles a person (Rev 14:4). The word of God clearly declares that marriage does not defile a person(Heb 13:4)
We must, on the first place, ensure that we are not making strawman arguments by misrepresenting (understating or overstating) the opponent’s position.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman
Does TPM in fact teaches that all marriages are defiling? I think it doesn’t as I haven’t seen such a statement in any of the TPM publication or from any TPM pastor.
Understatement Vs Overstatement
It is generally observed that opponents of TPM doctrine usually fabricate a false case for making the task easier for them. They amplify TPM doctrines and deamplify Scripture. By doing this they make two overlapping waves to go totally out of sync. This is an inconsistent way of dealing with a problem, and (to quote apologist Dr. James White) “inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument”.
For example, when Jesus says to “forsake all” that is deamplied to mean just a total committment. When Paul says “For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry. Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge.” (1 Tim 5:11,12) it’s again deamplied. But when a TPM booklet says about marriage as “stooping into baser life” its amplified to mean “dishonourable”, “defiling” etc. This is an insincere and inconsistent attitude.
Though the book that you mentioned no longer appear in the list of TPM publications, I can offer my comment as this doesn’t have the meaning that you impose on it.
When you have two choices and one is better than the other, the better one is called “higher” and the other is called “baser”. (If you go for buying a car they will show you base versions and higher versions of the same car.) The fact that celibacy is better than a state of marraige relationship (for whatever reason) is clear from 1 Cor 7. Hence celibacy is a higher lifestyle whereas as marraige is the baser lifestyle (it’s default option for all human beings). It doesn’t mean that the baser thing is dishonourable or defiling.
On the contrary, there is enough proof to show that TPM doesn’t teach that marriages are defiling for those who are called for such a life. The TPM publication “Here’s the Answer” in its page No. 51 addresses the question “Is marriage or married life a sin?”. The answer given to this question makes it clear that there is no defilement associated with a married life and an active married life is not a hindrance to go in the coming of the Lord. Since TPM teaches the doctrine of perfection as a standard to be caught up at His coming, its clear that it doesn’t teach all marriage as defiling. But at the same time the book draws a clear distinction between those who are called for a married life and those who are called to be eunuchs.
In my previous post I had given three arguments to show that the criteria of holiness and defilement depends on a person’s calling.
1. The example of Samson
2. The example of OT prophets
3. The widows of 1 Timothy 5:11,12
Sadly the responses given to all the three examples missed their point.
1. When I used the example of Samson I was not addressing whether wine defiles a New Testament believer or not. I was pointing out that something that is not defiling for someone can be defiling and inappropriate for another. Wine did not defile any OT saints, (and according to you it neither defile NT saints) but still Samson was not allowed to drink. Just like cutting his hair led to his downfall drinking wine also could have led to his downfall.
Hence my point is that what is right/wrong, what is defiling/undefiling depends on a person’s call, and it still stands.
2. My second example of the polygamy of OT saints was not to address the issue of polygamy itself. You said polygamy doesn’t defile an NT saint citing the example of polygamous people in the early church. But I think you know the difference between a polygamist becoming a Christian and a Christian becoming a polygamist. If you still think a Christian can enter into a polygamous relationship without defiling himself, you can safely substitute ‘polygamy’ with ‘concubinage’ (just because I do not wish to sidetrack into another debate) in my argument. To rephrase, many of the OT saints who are mentioned as “holy” in NT practised concubinage and it didn’t defile them. But concubinage will defile us because our calling is different.
Hence my point is that what is right/wrong, what is defiling/undefiling depends on a person’s call, and it still stands.
3. Thirdly I quoted the example of the widows mentioned in 1 Tim 5:11, 12. You replied that these were widows to whom the church extended financial support and not those who were separated for ministry. But the reply missed the point of my argument. It doesn’t matter whether its ministry or financial support (the passage is ambiguous, and from the context of the entire epistle it appears that it is in fact for ministry). The point here is why Paul wants those widows to remain unmarried. To quote the passage again:
“As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry. Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge” (1 Tim 5:11, 12)
Paul didn’t want younger widows to be on the list because they may desire to marry and in doing so “they bring judgment on themselves”. This means those widows who are put on the list must remain unmarried. Why such a strong statement from Paul against them getting married when he himself earlier told that a widow is free to marry whomever she wishes? (1 Cor 7:39)
The only possible solution is that their calling is different.
Hence my point is that what is right/wrong, what is defiling/undefiling depends on a person’s call, and it still stands.
Now the question is whether this a TPM or non-TPM argument? Though TPM articles may not have gone in detail in explaining this point, this is pointed out in almost everywhere I could read about the doctrine of Zion. As an example, let me quote the same book (The Hundred Forty And Four Thousand On Mount Sion — Who are they?),
“If one considers the eternal purpose of God, and his privilege of standing together with the Lamb, will he stoop to this baser life? This does not pertain to all. Eternity will comprise men of different standards.”
This is just what I am explaining. To a person called for a celibate life, ignoring the call and choosing to marry is in fact a “stoop to baser life”.
Bro. Bob also provided a counter argument that when a person despises his call, it does not defile him but only make him out of the perfect will of God. A verse was quoted in support,
“For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man” (Matt 15:19, 20) implying that only these things defile a person, and not despising one’s call. But let me quote the verse from Mark,
“That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:” (Mark 7:20-22)
Here you can see that ‘foolishness’ also defiles a person. What is more foolish than to know God’s call for one’s life and to despise it?
Hence when a person is called as a eunuch and he despises his call, he commits foolishness by which he will be defiled. Hence the TPM interpretation of Reve 14:4 is not unscriptural only if we care to consider the Scripture in its totality.
As Hebrews 13:4 is one of the most quoted verse in this page, let me offer certain points from my understanding. It can be noted that this verse in not always quoted in full in this blog,
KJV translates Hebr 13:4 as follows:
“Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.” (Hebr 13:4) If you check other versions you can see a subtle variation in meaning.
“Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure” (NIV)
“Marriage is to be held in honor among all, and the marriage bed is to be undefiled” (NASB)
“Let marriage be held in honor in all things. And thus let the marriage bed be undefiled” (AMP)
Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled (ESV)
“Let married life be honoured among all of you and not made unclean; for men untrue in married life will be judged by God.” (BBE)
“Let marriage be held every way in honour, and the bed be undefiled; for fornicators and adulterers will God judge.” (Darby)
“Give honor to marriage, and remain faithful to one another in marriage. God will surely judge people who are immoral and those who commit adultery.” (NLT)
“Have respect for marriage. Always be faithful to your partner, because God will punish anyone who is immoral or unfaithful in marriage.” (CEV)
“Marriage should be honored by everyone, and husband and wife should keep their marriage pure.” (NCV)
“Marriage is honorable in every way, so husbands and wives should be faithful to each other. God will judge those who commit sexual sins, especially those who commit adultery.” (God’s Word)
Few things have to be understood from this verse:
– The verse doesn’t say “honorable for all” as somebody misquoted it in this blog. Rather marriage is “honored by all”, “in honor among all”, “honored among all” etc.
– Secondly, ratrher than saying “bed is undefiled” it says “bed be undefiled”, “bed be kept pure” which in context is a command to keep the marriage from pollution by not indulging in fornication or adultery.
In short, the passage tells us that all, ministers as well as believers, must honor marriage and those who are married must remain faithful to their spouse by not indulging in fornication or adultery. It doesn’t tell us that marriage is “honourable for all”. Nor does it say that all marriages are honourable. In fact, it can never be since marriages between very close blood relationships or polygamous marriages are never honourable for a committed Christian. Same is the case with one who is called for celibacy and who has consecrated himself. That is why Paul states that “when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry. Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge” (1 Tim 5:12). Hence the TPM interpretation of Reve 14:4 is perfectly in line with Scripture.
2. Stipulating celibacy: Alwin’s doctrine of stipulating celibacy for clergy is a doctrine of devils and seducing spirits (1 Tim 4:1-3)
As the need for celibacy for Apostolic ministers has already been explained let me address the issue of 1 Tim 4:1-3. We must not misinterpret Scriptures to malign doctrinal opponents.
“Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.” (1 Tim 4:1-3)
Before addressing what this verse is addressing let me address why this is not applicable to TPM doctrine:
– TPM does not forbid marriage to any person, be it a believer or a minister. Nobody will be excommunicated from TPM for choosing to get married. If a minister wants to get married he will be relieved of ministerial responsibilities to take proper care of his family. This is, at worst, forbidding ministry to those leading active married life than the other
– If this verse is against stipulating celibacy under all circumstances then Paul himself would be the first one who violated this principle, and the other disciples come next in line. (1 Tim 5:12; 1 Cor 7:27,29; Matt 19:10)
– Again, if this verse is against stipulating celibacy under all circumstances, then all churches which proclaims fasts are also preaching “devilish doctrine” as it demands to “abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving”.
– Rather than depending on “hate theology” (theology motivated by hatred towards other groups rather than a knowledge of Christ) we should properly understand this verse as reference to a total forbidding of marriage seen occasionally among certain cult groups throughout the history of Christianity. A typical example is the first century Gnosticism that emerged immediately after Paul gave this prophecy. They condemned everything pertaining to physical matter as evil including marriage relationship and even the physical body of Jesus. A specific example is the Encratites who forbade marriage for all its members and rejected marriage as evil.
Applying this to TPM which conducts hundreds of marriages every week is very silly.
Gsr
Yes my friend “inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument.” Dr white was right.
If you are not consistent with your interpretation
of Rev14: 4, you have failed in your arguments.
You sound like the man who said ” please do not disturb me with facts, because I have made up my mind.’
You are the perfect example, of an ‘Alwinist.’
May the Lord open your eyes of understanding.
I was once like you, bound and brainwashed, and a great defender of Alwinism, until the shackles were broken, and my blinded eyes were opened.
Alwinisim enslaves, and blinds..
The Truth still makes men free. You can be a free man in Christ.
Sam.
I shall return with a double edged sword!!!
(The pure word of God) I have no time for Alwinism.
While going across these posts from top to bottom. I’ve clearly understood something which speaks out rather screams out. There are some people who have had a very tough time going to tpm church and many more who have been blessed to many fold.
Those who have had a tough time with these tough doctrines, never wanted to be the way Almighty wants us to be in “His perfect will”, opting out from them by creating and following their own perceptions and twisting the doctrines as they see thmeselves to be and as they want to live thier life.
There are many useful things people can engage in other than these futile discussions here.
All of you go home and pray for our dear moderator who has not only twisted the doctrines but also advocats the fact that God doesnt exist. Which clearly speaks of her character which demands self-will without having anybody to be given accountability for any of her moral act and thoughts.
Dear Christian friends, I appeal to all of you to boycott this evil-blog and carry on with your normal life.
Mist.
GSR
Let each man/woman abide in his/her calling, and let there be no discrimination. When God calls someone to serve him, he gives them no options. There is no base calling and a high calling.
The Pentecostalism influenced by Catholic and Hindu reasoning, that a Bramacharya is greater
than the ordinary person, who is sincere in his devotion, and consecration, is very appealing to the Eastern mind and reasoning. No wonder TPM is a failure in the West. Take away the believers from the East, TPM will not have a single church in the west, not even in London!!! People in the West don’t swallow Alwinism.
You defend TPM’s doctrine on celebacy, claiming it is Apostalic. Why not live like the Apostles in consecration. Your “Apostles” whether in the west or East Live much better, and I dare say some live in luxury, relatively speaking. Compare their life style and comforts they have with the average worker on the lowest wrung of the ladder. If an Apostle, is living a better life with all the worldy comforts which he did not have before he became an Apostle, and is not suffering the loss like the early Apostles, he is not worthy of his calling. I have been there and seen it for 27 years!! I know what I am talking about.
Why does TPM think that those Apostles who are married, are of a lower consecration, like Pastor Manoharan who is the most senior Pastor in TPM. He is abiding in his calling.
He should be the Chief Pastor. Having known him I would say he is better qualified, than any one in TPM today. In stead Alwin’s cronies like AC Thoms and others who were the ruthless power brokers, banished him to Rajastan!! Manoharan as chief would have brought great reforms in TPM. We need a Martin Luther in TPM!!!!
Mark my words there will be one sooner or later.
‘Alwinism’, because it is nothing but Legalism, and a the product of a totally corrupt mind, captivated by seducing spirits, will have a slow but sure death!! Believe me the wheels of the mighty revolution is well oiled, and is slowly but surely moving. It is just a matter of time!! I am not predicting the demise of TPM, God forbid, but a retrun to the undiluted WORD OF GOD, from ‘Alwinism.’
TPM should ordain some woman Apostles!!
WHY not?
I shall return in defence of the TRUTH
I wonder how you people have so much time to discusss a useless issue….
You would do a lot better visiting these:
http://rememberambassadors.com
http://www.persecution.in
I am unable to complete reading the comments, but I will complete it very soon.
Susan is giving a very good comment both Biblical, logical as well as practical. We may teach 101 holy teachings, but what is practicable does matter. Jesus himself said the person who sees a woman with lust at the same moment he committed adultery, -> an adulterer does not have a place in heaven. Now consider which man or a woman would not have seen the opposite sex with lust in his/her whole life? Is it possible? Then nobody would go to the Heaven.
Gold: Why Jesus himself was offered gold when he was born? Why the father of the prodigal son adorns his son with ring (gold ring, cannot be an iron ring)? Practically, if the pastors are considering the gold and valuables dust then why would they need the same dust in their offering boxes? If I dump some dirt from the road into the offering boxes do anybody agree? And why Heaven has gold in itself? ( all the roads are made of gold)
Have gold, but do not put your trust on that i.e. dont have it as an investment and keep on multiplying it. I have seen pastors fludging the same jewelery for church needs, then using its value is not a sin? How?
In simple terms, overeating is also considered a sin, so do we stop eating? or any pastor or any man of God for that matter?
About raiment, it is told to use only appropriate clothing. Does that mean we should not totally wear clothes?
We must live with what is needed, not long after that, not live for that alone. The measurement is if you have to lose them one day you should not be affected by that loss.
About women ministry in church Paul himself said, they are weaker vessels, but did not explain what it is. I was breaking my head till yesterday, but very recently I got the answer for what he meant weakness in women is 1. GENERALLY WOMEN ARE NOT EXPOSED TO THE WORLD SO THEY WONT BE GOOD ENOUGH IN MANAGEMENT. 2. EVEN IF THEY ARRIVE AT A DECISION THEIR MIND WAVERS, THEY CANNOT BE STEADY. THAT IS THE REASON WHY PROBLEMS MAY ARISE WITH MEN THEY SOON DISAPPEAR BUT THE PROBLEMS ARISE WITH WOMEN WILL CONTINUE TO MULTIPLY. SEE GENERALLY, WOMEN ARE THE CENTER POINTS FOR THE PROBLEM IN ANY FAMILY. THE THINGS THAT FALL INTO WOMAN’S HANDS WILL HAVE NO REDEMPTION. So, in the same way it was prohibited in the churches also, but this is not a head-banging factor to consider. On the other side while the men are drunkards and destroy the family there are mothers who live for their children and build the house too.
I WILL SOON COME UP WITH MY SUGGESTIONS WITH THREE CATEGORIES 1. WHAT IS PRACTICAL CHRISTIANITY 2. CHRISTIANS WHO FELL INTO THE CLUTCHES OF THE ROARING LION. (I PET 5:8) 3. CHRISTIANS WHO DID NOT FALL INTO THE CLUTCHES OF THE ROARING LION.
Those who were affected by the roaring lion and neglected by the so-called holy people(the church) will keep on saying WHERE IS GOD. Those who were not affected by the roaring lion, safe on the land, will continue to say GOD IS GOOD, HE HAS DONE EVERYTHING FOR US.
I have devised a classification to clearly identity who is who, why these people are continually falling into arguments like above and breaking their heads, and what is actually needed.
At first place, this PRACTICAL CHRISTIANITY will speak a practical lifestyle which is acceptable to both Bible and people of all ages, all generations, all times, all casts, all creeds, all nations, IT IS UNIVERSAL. This is what and how the Christianity is supposed to be. I got different verses adn incidents from the same old KJV Bible. We do not have to take incidents from Tom Dick and Harry of your side or my side.
I WONDER HOW THESE SO CALLED PREACHERS WHO PREACH ONLY WITH THE REVELATION FROM HOLY SPIRIT DID NOT GET REVELATION FROM OTHER PARTS (OMITTED) OF THE BIBLE FROM AGES. (So all messages delivered in the church cannot be, need not be, revelations from Holy Spirit, they are man made, fabricated — man has that capacity of fabricating things, thats why he changes his statements from time to time.)
People who want to know what they are, can send a mail to parasuramindia@yahoo.co.in, because it will take quite a lot of time to complete reading all the above comments and arrive/come out with my view.
thank you
parasuramindia
Response to Bro. Bob’s post on August 28, 2009 at 11:20 pm
Faith Home System
I associate myself with the first paragraph of your reply on August 4, 2009.
That alone is sufficient to disprove the argument that Faith Home system is unscriptural.
But let me address Acts 1:13,14. My argument based on these verses were specifically targeted against the statement “Nowhere in the Bible do we find a bunch of men and women living under the same roof in the name of ministry” which seems to be copied from Dr. David Paul’s book ‘To TPM with love’. This statement is clearly false in light of Acts 1:13,14.
Coming to the rest of your points, it must be stated that Faith Home system is not a doctrinal point. It’s just a lifestyle. Hence the criteria for addressing whether its Scriptural or not is not the same as that of addressing a doctrine. If something is mentioned at least once in the Scriptures, and if it not condemned later it cannot be termed ‘Unscriptural’ by anybody. Some other points to be noted in regard to your comments
– Jesus told the disciples not to depart from Jerusalem and to wait for the promise of the Holy Spirit. But he didn’t tell them to stay in one home, especially with women. If that was unacceptable they would not have done so. The rest of 120 could have continued in their homes.
– The phrase “where they were abiding” (RV) denotes that they were already residing together, the beginning of which is not mentioned. Nor does the Scripture tell that they discontinued such a lifestyle.
– You said “First, the term women has been translated as “with their wives” referring to the wives of the apostles.” Please let me know the translation you are referring to. It is not good to distort the Scripture for our convenience. Almost all translations render it as “the women” referring to women like Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Susanna, Mary mother of James and Judas, the other Mary etc. Some commentators who teaches that the apostles were staying with their wives, when puzzled by the lack of mention of them here distort the meaning of this verse to conform to their idea. They rely on the fact that the Greek word used for ‘women’ (gune) has the dual meaning of ‘woman’ and ‘wife’. But the choice of the right word for a Greek word with two or meanings is not to be motivated by theology but the language structure. If “gune” has to be be precisely tranlsated as “wife” it should be preceeded by a masculine possessive noun/pronoun like “his” or “their”, for “his woman’ or “their women” could refer to his/their wife/wives. But that is not the case in Acts 1:14. There is no possessive pronoun before that which is the reason why almost all translations render it correctly as “the women”.
If anyone still insist that it could be translated as “their wives” then you must be consistent and translate the same Greek words in Reve 14:4 as “their wives”. I do not think anyone will do that, nor does I think that is anywhere close to an accurate translation.
– The lack of mention of the wives of the Apostles here is actually a proof that they were not living in a marriage relationship.
– You said “It is important to note that some instructions in the bible are only applicable to a certain group of people at a certain time but are inapplicable to other generations. For example, in the Old Testament, God instructed the Jews to destroy all the idols and kill all the inhabitants of certain cities.”
The Bible after Acts 1:13, 14 never forbids such a lifestyle. It never says that such a lifestyle ceased to exist among them. You cannot argue from silence as silence is not denial. The analogy you suggested doesn’t apply here. We do not practice the command God gave to the Jews because their was a change of covenenat and a change of Law after that. We are under the New Covenant of love which tells us to love our enemies and to pray for those who persecute us. That supersedes the previous covenant. We are not Jews called for an earthly inheritance.
The same does not apply to Acts 1:13, 14. There was no change of covenant, no abrogation, or anything that can turn the lifestyle mentioned in Acts 1:13,14 to something “unscriptural”.
During the early days of TPM, the rooms of men and women were adjacent to each other. However, I hear that the architecture of the new FHs provide separation for the women’s quarters from the men’s, which is a great improvement.
There is no problem with either of this. If an Old Testament saint like Boaz didn’t sin even when a young woman uncovered his leg and lay down at his feet for a whole night, and if Joseph could run away from temptation even while being in all privacy, and if Jesus being a young man didn’t commit any sin even while being in the company of many women, we NT saints doesn’t have to be afraid of this. Our holiness is solely dependent on the grace of God not on the circumstances.
1 Corinthians 9:5
This might be the most misinterpreted verse in this blog. Can this verse be taken to prove that the Apostles were married and they were living and travelling along with their wives? Does this verse have the meaning that is taken for granted throughout this blog? Let us study the verse properly. This verse is usually quoted from the NIV by anti-TPMites because that makes matters easy for them. But the fact of the matter is that NIV translation is inaccurate. Lets see this verse from three translations:
“Don’t we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas?” (NIV)
“Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?” (KJV)
“Have we not power to carry about a woman, a sister as well as the rest of the apostles and the brethren of the Lord and Cephas?” (Douay Rheims)
There is clear variation of meaning as we go from NIV to Douay Rheims. Whenever there is variation in the translations we have the responsisbility to which is right or more accurate. I strongly associate myself with the DR translation of this verse. I consider the KJV to be fairly accurate while the NIV to be inaccurate, the reasons will be explained below.
In the light of the DR translation which is closest to the original Greek and because of the reasons explained below I strongly state that this verse is not at all speaking about the wives of the Apostles or them travelling with their wives but to faithful women who followed and ministered along with the Apostles just as Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Susanna etc. ministered to Jesus and Euodias And Syntyche ministered along with Paul and Clement. (Phil 4:3)
Reason 1: The Meaning of the Verse
Some people argue that Paul is here claiming his right to get married citing the example of other Apostles being married and travelling with their wives. If that were really the case Paul must have asked “Don’t we have the right to get married as do the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas?” He was not poor in classical Greek to be ignorant of asking the question plainly.
But Paul is not claiming his right to get married, but to take someone (a believing wife; a sister, a wife; a woman, a sister) along with him. That naturally implies that the person he is referring to actually exists as nobody can take a nonexistent person along with him.
For eg: If a friend who knows me well invites me for a party and if I being unmarried asks him, Can I take my wife along with me? the obvious response from him will be “Are you married?”. Because I cannot ask him permission to take my wife along with me unless I am married or unless I am insane.
Similarly Paul could not ask permission to take a wife with him unless he was married in the first place. Remember he is not asking “Don’t we have the right to get married?”. His emphasis is on taking her along with him. From 1 Cor 7:8 it is clear that Paul was not married. Hence it is logically impossible to ask a question like that with a meaning the anti-TPMites want it to mean.
But in the light of the meaning I have given earlier this sentence makes perfect sense. There were believing women travelling and ministering along with the Apostles as well as Paul and Barnabbas like Euodias, Syntyche etc. Some of them would have been married women just like Joanna, wife of Cuza, followed and ministered to Jesus. (Luke 8:1-3) Concerning Joanna we can rightfully say that Jesus was taking along with him a believing wife (of Cuza), or a sister a woman, or a sister a wife during his ministry. After the resurrection of Jesus these women who followed Jesus continued their ministry with the Apostles, along with the women who believed later. (Acts 1:13, 14)
In 1 Corinthians 9:5 Paul is actually defending the legitimacy of taking such a woman, a sister (probably a married woman) to minister along with him. The next point will explain it further.
Reason 2: The Context
To those who claim that Paul is claiming his right to be married, let me ask, what is the context of it? The epistles in the Bible are all written in some specific contexts to address some specific issues. What is the context of this verse? After explaining the advantage of celibacy over marriage in 1 Cor 7 and after exhorting the believers to remain as he is if they can, doesn’t it seem ironic that Paul is asking permission to get married? Why should Paul ask permission to the Corinthians to get married? Was Paul a celibate because the Corinthians were not allowing him to get married?
Anyway let me explain the context of this verse. Paul and Barnabas were two Apostles who were not among the twelve. They were in many ways different from the rest of the Apostles. Until the advent of Paul, Christianity was more Jewish in nature where the many of the believers considered Jesus to be the Jewish Messiah rather than the Saviour of the whole world. They preached the gospel only to the Jews. (Acts 11:19) When Paul came to the scene with openly preaching the Gospel to the Gentiles and explicitly preaching justification by faith apart from the Mosaic Law it created a lot of opponents for him who insisted that it was necessary to keep the Law of Moses in order to be justified. (Acts 15:1,2) Though they accepted Peter’s introduction of Gospel to the Gentiles (Acts 10, 11) they maintained that Gentiles must keep the Mosaic Law. The issue was dicussed in the Jerusalem council (Acts 15). But there still remained some Judaizing Christians trying to spread their ideology, who later formed a separate sect called the Ebionites (as history shows) and rejected the Apostleship of Paul. Paul’s arguments in 1 Cor 9:5 were a defence of his Apostleship against the Judaizer’s arguments.
Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? (9:1)
Paul directly claims his Apostleship to those tried to question it.
Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?
The early Christians believed that only a person who was there with Jesus all the while He was ministering till His resurrection can be an Apostle. (Acts 1:21,22) Paul’s Aposleship was questioned on this ground as Paul never met Jesus while He was on earth. But Paul appeals to his vision of the resurrected Jesus as the defence.
Do we not have the right to eat and drink?
Paul never observed the dietary laws of the Torah. But the other Apostles seems to have continued to observe these dietary Laws. (Acts 10:14) This was used as an argument against him, but he says he has the right to eat and to drink.
Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
There were women ministers accompanying Paul and Barnabas, at times, like Euodias and Syntyche. But this was slanderously spoken of against him. But Paul appeals that the other Apostles also take believing women along with them as sisters to help them in ministry (Acts 1:14).
Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
In his epistles we can see many times Paul asking for offerings from the churches. This was used as another argument against him. But Paul makes it clear that the other Apostles are also taking offering from churches and further proves his point from the Law.
Paul was not in fact taking offerings for his personal purpose, but to help those who are in distress. To meet his personal needs he worked with his own hand. This he makes clear in verse verse 12.
This is the context of this verse. In this context it doesn’t make much sense that he is claiming his righ to get married citing the example of other Apostles. There doesn’t seem any reason to think that his Apostleship was questioned on this ground. Even if that is the case it makes sense only if he was married and was taking his wife along with him which was used as a point against his Apostleship. We clearly know that he was not married.
Reason 3: The Greek
The NIV’s rendering as “a believing wife” is certainly not the literal meaning of the Greek text. NIV is an interpretive translation where the translators have the freedom to reconstruct the verse in the translation. This sometimes overlooks the literal meaning of the verse and gives room for the translator’s personal beliefs to color the meaning.
KJV and Douay Rheims renders the text accurately. When Douay Rheims renders it perfectly as “a woman, a sister”, KJV gives “a sister, a wife” , but the KJV translation notes gives the alternate meaning as “a sister, a woman”.
The Greek words used here are ‘adelphē’ (a sister) and ‘gunē’ (a woman)
adelphē – This word has the meaning ‘sister’ in classical Greek (see Strong’s concordance). Until the time of Christianity this was used only to mean a sister by birth, but Scripture writers extended it to mean ‘a sister in faith’. But this was done to emphasize the fact that believing women were just like sisters by birth. This was important since Christianity had more emphasis on fellowship and communal living than other religious systems of the time. To address someone’s wife as his ‘adelphē’ is unnatural and doesn’t have any parallel throughout the Scriptures.
Dr. David Paul seems to have noticed this and he gives a silly logic to address this. He says Peter’s wife was like a sister to Paul. But to take such a meaning from this verse is absurd since Paul is not asking the right to take Peter’s wife along with him. He is referring to one and the same person as “a sister, a wife”.
The NIV’s rendering as “believing” is false on the simple fact that adelphē is a noun and not an adjective. And if Paul meant a “believing wife” was he left with only this word combination to mean it in Greek? We must address such issues because what if there were was no other way to tell this in Greek? In such situations Scriptural exegesis requires us to look to the writing styles of the same author in other places. For eg:
“And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.” (1 Tim 6:2 KJV)
The word used for “believing” is ‘pistos’ in adjective form. So if Paul had meant “a believing wife” in 1 Cor 9:5 he must have used ‘pistos’ before ‘gunē’ and not ‘adelphē’.
Hence the word ‘adelphē’ requires special attention here. Paul used this word to emphasize the fact that the women mentioned in this verse had only sisterly relation with the Apostles, even if it were their wives. (On a side note, the only existing Christians who can address their wives as adelphē would be the married and consecrated ministers in TPM). But in 1 Cor 9:5 since the word ‘adelphē’ is used it makes more sense that these were just believing women accompanying the Apostles as sisters.
gunē The primary meaning of this word is ‘woman’ and the secondary meaning is ‘wife’. For original Greek words which have multiple meanings like this it is extremely important to determine what the author is actually meaning. Many a times the choice of the English is guided by the personal choice of the translator. But there are certain aspects of the verse which helps us to determine which word has to be chosen. For eg:
“Jesus saith unto her, Woman (gunē), what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.” (John 2:4)
It is quite easy to understand that the word gunē here has to be translated as ‘woman’ because Jesus is not addressing Mary as ‘Wife’.
“Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife (gunē):” (Matt 1:20)
In this verse gunē can mean “wife” since the usage ‘thy woman’ implies ‘thy wife’.
But in 1 Cor 9:5 what does gunē mean? To understand this we need to observe the general pattern of how this verse is translated in the New Testament. As an observation we can see that wherever the word gunē is associated with a masculine possessive noun/pronoun (his, their, Joseph’s etc.) it can mean ‘wife’ or where the context makes it explicitly clear.
Eg: Matt 5:1, Matt 19:5 (his wife); Matt 14:3, Mark 6:17 (Philip’s wife); Matt 22:28 (whose wife); etc. (Check other verses as well)
But wherever such a usage is not found ‘woman’ is the appropriate translation for gunē. See Matt 9:22; Matt 15:28; Matt 26:10; Mark 5:33; Mark 10:12; Luke 4:26; Luke 7:44; Luke 7:50; Luke 10:38; Luke 13:12; Luke 15:8; John 2:4; John 4:11; John 8:9; John 19:26; Acts 17:34; 1 Cor 7:34; 1 Cor 11:6; 1 Tim 2:12; Reve 2:20; Reve 12:6
Thus we can see that in situations where the context doesn’t explicitly specify gunē has to be translated as ‘woman’ and not ‘wife’. In 1 Cor 9:5 we do not see any masculine possessive noun/pronoun before or after gunē. Hence the accurate translation of this verse is “a woman, a sister” as seen in the Douay Rheims and the King James translation notes.
Reason 4: Circumstantial evidence
In the first century the Apostles were the most important ministers of the church. There were also other non-Apostolic ministers as well. Some of them were in ministry as husband and wife like Aquila and Priscilla. It must be noted that since Aquila and Priscilla ministered together the Word of God always mentions them together. (Acts 18:2; Acts 18:18; Acts 18:26; Roma 16:3; 1 Cor 16:19; 2 Tim 4:19) Never does the Scripture mentions them alone.
Even for a non-Apostolic minister like Aquila the Scripture takes care to mention his wife wherever his name is mentioned as they were ministering together. If the Apostles who were leaders of the church were ministering with their wives it is highly unlikely that the Scriptures doesn’t explicitly mention any of their wives. Even in the episode of Jesus visiting Peter’s house and healing his mother-in-law, his wife is not mentioned. It is most likely that he may perhaps have been a widower long before Jesus called him for ministry. Nor does the Scriptures mention any of the children of the Apostles.
All these indicates that the Apsotles were not living in an active marriage relationship at least after they were called for ministry.
Reason 5: Historical Evidence
Historically the majority of the church fathers (eg: Tertullian, Augustine, Jerome) believed that this verse refers to only women ministers travelling along with the Aposltes and not to wives of Apostles. A very few who thought that this could be the wives of the Apostles nevertheless held the view that they were travelling with them as sisters (eg: Clement of Alexandria), made clear by the word adelphē, and not as wives.
Tertullian – On Monogamy – Chapter 8
“For if he were disputing about marriages, as he does in the sequel, where the apostle could better have named some particular example, it would appear right for him to say, “For have we not the power of leading about wives, like the other apostles and Cephas?” But when he subjoins those (expressions) which show his abstinence from (insisting on) the supply of maintenance, saying, “For have we not the power of eating and drinking?” he does not demonstrate that “wives” were led about by the apostles, whom even such as have not still have the power of eating and drinking; but simply “women,” who used to minister to them in the same way (as they did) when accompanying the Lord.”
“Peter alone do I find— through (the mention of) his “mother-in-law” —to have been married. Monogamist I am led to presume him by consideration of the Church, which, built upon him, was destined to appoint every grade of her Order from monogamists. The rest, while I do not find them married, I must of necessity understand to have been either eunuchs or continent.”
Remember Tertullian was born in AD 198 while Apostle John died at around AD 90-100. If the Apostles were married then their grandchildren would have been alive during the time of Tertullian and it would have been ridiculous for him to make such a claim. Moreover they would have directly refuted Tertullian’s argument. But we do not see anything of that sort from church history.
Hence based on these reasons, 1 Corinthians 9:5 cannot be taken conclusively to refer to the wives of the Apostles, but it most probably refers to the women who ministered along with the Apostles.
Incidentally, in advocating celibacy, St. Paul clearly states that it is his opinion and not a command of the lord; hence, we must give it the due recognition.
He doesn’t, in reality. The first time when Paul says “not the Lord” is in verse 12 of 1 Corinthians 7. Even if we ignore from verse 12 for argument’s sake, the advantage of celibacy over marriage is clearly established. Verse 1-11 makes clear the following in this regard
– It is good to remain unmarried (7:1)
– Marriage is permitted to avoid fornication (7:2)
– Marriage is given as a permission and not a commandment (7:6)
– Marriage is provided for the sake of incontinency (7:9)
A basic understanding of these verses is enough to accept the fact that a married life is not equal to consecrated life. And these verse are not Paul’s opinion.
What Paul provides from verse 12 onwards is an expansion of the ideas in these verses. And Paul’s opinions are founded on God’s revelations and not on human wisdom and logic which he makes clear in 1 Cor 2:1, 4, 13, 16. Hence these words are not be taken as opininos arising out of human self.
When Paul says in verse 14 “The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.” we do not have to give a different meaning to “holy” than what is given to the same word at places of the Scripture. That is an inconsistent approach. But does that violate Hebrews 13:4 or mean that married people are unholy? Not necessarily. Holiness is mentioned in the Bible in varying degrees. When the Bible mentions the OT prophets as holy, it is not to the same extent that we say Jesus is holy. The OT prophets were not as holy as Jesus, but still they were holy.
As explained earlier the holiness that God expects from a person depends on his calling and as long as a person remains faithful to his calling and standard of life associated with it he/she is holy.
So what verse 14 means is that when a person who has the gift of celibacy (1 Cor 7:7) and the call for a single life (7:24) remains faithful to that calling he/she does it so that he/she may be holy both in body and in spirit.
And I agree to the rest of your statements in this regard that an unmarried person can serve the Lord without distraction and without the cares of family responsibilities which makes him more equipped to do the ministry of the Lord. Unfortunately not many (or any?) in the non-TPM pentecostal world are submitting themselves to serve the Lord without distraction. This shows how lightly they take the ministry of the Lord. For most of them the Lord’s work is a part-time business after spending time for their family and other secular endeavours. But we in TPM are privileged to have ministers who volunatrily pour themselves out completely in the way of the Lord. Only such saints can rightfully sing,
“Take my love, my Lord, I pour
At Thy feet its treasure store;
Take myself and I will be
Ever, only, all for Thee.”
But we do not despise the ministry of others. We do accept their services for the kingdom of God in their own capacity. As Paul says,
“For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;” (1 Cor 3:11,12)
Our ministry wants to build upon the foundation of Christ with the most precious materials. Hence our ministers trade their precious lives for these precious materials.
While this is an interesting argument, as far as I know, it is not the official TPM position. The official TPM position is that an essential qualification for Zion is “those who are not defiled by women”.
No it is not. Before we go public criticising something we need to have an accurate understanding of what we are criticising. Thus far, the most extensive book TPM has published in this regard is “Zion, The Perfection of beauty”. If you have ever read that book, you would have understood that the basic qualification for Zion is the calling, and not consecration. Nobody can earn Zion by consecration, rather those who are called to Zion respond to that call by consecration. Thus the doctrine of Zion is a doctrine of grace rather than works. Its by grace and sovereign choice of God by which a person is called for Zion. And every calling has a standard of life associated with it which the grace of God enables you to live.
“I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.” (Phil 3:14)
Here Paul makes it clear that based on his calling a mark is set before him to get the prize. And he is pressing towards it. He is not preaching salvation by works, but the effect of calling, as no amount of pressing will qualify you for the prize unless you are called.
And the failure to fulfill your calling will only result in the losing of your rewards (in our case, Zion) and not your salvation. Hence the doctrine of Zion is a doctrine of grace and not a doctrine of works as some here attempt to argue.
You quoted from the book “The 144000 on Mount Zion: Who are they?” to prove your point. But why did you miss the verse following right after the one you quoted.
“If one considers the eternal purpose of God, and his privilege of standing together with the Lamb, will he stoop to this baser life? This does not pertain to all.”
‘Pertain’ means ‘be relevant to’. The following remarks are given in the section of the book that addresses Reve 14:4. Is it not clear from these statements that TPM doctrine is exactly the same that I explained: that the defiling is only for those who are called? To those who are called for married life marriage is a fulfillment of their calling, but those who are called for a higher life of consecration marriage is a stoop to baser life.
God bless.
(to be continued)
[b]Notice[/b]
Please note that ‘gsr’ and ‘georgesraju’ are the same – George Samuel Raju. As I was logged in to wordpress and didn’t notice it, my post automatically took the login name. I will try to continue with the ‘georgesraju’ from now on.
Sorry for any confusions caused.
God bless.
gsr
When Paul said ‘ Except for fasting and prayer
let them come together,’ was he talking to the people who had chosen the base calling as you say. Were there any destined to Zion in his audience? If so he was permitting defilement?
Sam
I shall return.
Susan! Your statements are as bold as your writing and straight forward, logical and Biblical too. – Matthew 23:24 they “strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. – They are missing out something very essential.
They may not preach to remove jewels, but let them not humiliate (who wear jewels) before others. They are doing this very much.
While they deny jewels how can they ask for its value in the form of offerings? While they are gabbing all the savings of believers like this do they help in anyway for believer’s big expenditures like marriages and building house etc? Or can you stop unexpected expenditure in the form of giving bribes in the outer world? We cannot stop anything. The world will not stop for us. All the prices will go high, as well as the bribe rates.
parasuramindia@yahoo.co.in
Response to Bro. Sam Alan’s post on October 2, 2009 at 3:12 am
So you are interested in knowing how I am consistent in interpreting Reve 14:4. Firstly you need to know what is consistency and how it applies to Reve 14:4. You tried to make an argument in an ambiguous way in one of your posts referring to the Lamb in Zion. Thanks for clarifying later that you were referring to our alleged inconsistency in taking the Lamb in verse 1 as symbolic and the rest of the verses as literal. (When I responded to your argument, I was not personally rebuking you as some misunderstood, I was only pointing out the excesses in your words. I am sorry if it hurt you. But I would like to emphasize the fact that you should respect your opponents’ choice of belief when engaging in mutual discussions.)
From the early times of Christianity people were confused about whether to interpret certain Scripture passages allegorically or literally. There were church fathers who belonged to both these camps. In fact nobody has till date been successful in providing any valid criteria to determine whether a verse has to be interpreted symbolically or literally.
As for me, I believe that many of the Scripture passages has both a literal and allegorical meaning, a temporal and an eternal meaning, and if prophecy, a partial and a complete fulfillment. For eg: many of the Messianic prophecies in the book of Isaiah has a spiritual/symbolic fulfillment in the church and a literal fulfillment in the Millenium (assuming a pre-millenial point of view). And there are other passages that can be taken either literally or symbolically only. Many a times such verses and concepts are interspersed throughout the Bible. Hence I trust the Holy Spirit to reveal to me what has to be taken literally and what has to be taken symbolically rather than trusting in the principles of hermeneutics and exegesis propagated from Bible Colleges. I AM CONSISTENT IN THIS APPROACH.
Your argument was that since we do not interpret the Lamb in Reve 14:1 literally, we should not interpret the rest of the verses literally too. But let me invite your attention to another verse,
“And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God! ” (John 1:36)
Do you think that John saw Jesus and thought he was (literally) a lamb? I assume that you don’t but take it to mean figuratively referring to the sacrificial lamb in the OT. But does that mean the entire passage has to be taken figuratively? It doesn’t.
“And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion” (Reve 14:1)
This verse looks almost similar to John 1:36. If the Lamb in John 1:36 doesn’t take the entire passage to an allegory why should the Lamb in Reve 14:1 do it?
The book of Revelation is arguably the most difficult-to-interpret book of the Bible. Throughout the history of Christianity many people tried to dislodge is from its canonical status because they found it unintelligible – this includes Martin Luther (during his early times). Any interpretation of the book of Revelation cannot be proven – one can only demonstrate the superiority of his interpretation over other interpretations and persuade people to believe. Also we can disprove other interpretations based on the rest of the Scripture even if we cannot prove ours.
Till this day I haven’t seen any exegesis on the book of Revelation which takes it either entirely literal or entirely symbolic. All considers some parts to be literal and other to be symbolic. If you know any which takes it fully in one approach please let me know.
I consider the book to be a mixture of literal and symbolic things (just like anyone else). For eg: when it speaks of John being exiled to Patmos (Reve 1), or Antipas being martyred (Reve 2) or the two witness ministering for 3260 days (Reve 11) I do not see any problem in taking it to be literal. But when it speaks of a woman clothed with the sun (Reve 12), or beast coming out of the sea (Reve 13) I do not see any reason to take it literally. Almost all thinks the beast is symbolic of the Antichrist but most thinks the mark of the beast (666) is literal.
Same is the case with Reve 14. If we read from Reve 13 through Reve 14 we can see that Reve 14:1-5 is logically separated from what precedes and what succedes. Hence I do not see a problem in interpreting Reve 14:1-5 literally. Obviously, as seen in John 1:36 the Lamb won’t take the entire passage to a symbolic level. By this I do not deny the secondary spiritual meaning of the text.
Hence I do not think there is any inconsistency in my understanding. Those who try to oppose this are requested to present their ‘consistent’ interpretation.
You sound like the man who said ” please do not disturb me with facts, because I have made up my mind.’ (Sam Alan)
Is the ‘man’ in your statment (who originally said this) Bro. Sam Alangaramoney? Just a doubt!
You are the perfect example, of an ‘Alwinist.’
Calling names is not a good way of dealing with brethren. The freedom that Christ gave us is not the freedom from the commitment to truth or the responsibility for a holy living, but rather the hatred, grudge, unforgiveness, impatience etc. which were part of our sinful nature. I’m so sad that when you say a hundred times about Christ setting you free, you still visibly exhibit the unforgiveness and grudge of what happened decades before, which anyone with spiritual discernment can see. I wish and pray that you enjoy the real freedom in Christ which is the freedom from the works of our flesh (sinful nature) and not a freedom from spiritual authorities or a holy life.
May the Lord open your eyes of understanding.
I’ve been praising God for years for doing it. But I welcome your prayer.
I was once like you, bound and brainwashed, and a great defender of Alwinism, until the shackles were broken, and my blinded eyes were opened.
You might had been bound and brainswashed and a great defender of Alwinism, but you were certainly not like me because I am not any of these.
God bless.
Dear Brother Georgesraju,
Greetings in the name of our Lord.
In your reply to Brother Bob Alexander of Texas dated October 4, you have stated and I quote below:
“But let me address Acts 1:13,14. My argument based on these verses were specifically targeted against the statement “Nowhere in the Bible do we find a bunch of men and women living under the same roof in the name of ministry” which seems to be copied from Dr. David Paul’s book ‘To TPM with love’. This statement is clearly false in light of Acts 1:13,14.
Coming to the rest of your points, it must be stated that Faith Home system is not a doctrinal point. It’s just a lifestyle. Hence the criteria for addressing whether its Scriptural or not is not the same as that of addressing a doctrine. ”
My Response
QUOTING ACTS 1: 13 & 14 ONLY SHOWS THAT YOU ARE NOT ABLE TO FIND EVEN ONE SCRIPTURE IN THE WHOLE OF NEW TESTAMENT TO SUPPORT THE FAITH HOME STYLE OF LIVING INVENTED BY PASTOR ALWIN.
BUT YOU ARE SO DESPERATE TO SUPPORT THE FAITH HOME SYSTEM THAT YOU ARE QUOTING THESE VERSES WHICH DOES NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE FAITH HOME LIFE STYLE.
YOUR QUOTING THESE VERSES WITHOUT ANY RYHME OR REASON IS JUST LIKE A SINKING MAN TRYING TO HOLD ON TO A PIECE OF STRAW TO SAVE HIS LIFE.
WHO ON EARTH SAID IT IS A DOCTRINE?
YOU HAVE SAID THAT THE FAITH HOME LIFE SYYLE IS JUST A LIFE STYLE AND NOT A DOCTRINE . BROTHER BOB OR ANY ONE ELSE EVER SAID THAT IT IS A DOCTRINE. EVEN DR. DAVID PAUL IN HIS BOOK ” TO TPM WITH LOVE’ NEVER SAID SO .
SINCE YOU DO NOT HAVE ONE VERSE TO SUPPORT THE FAITH LIFE STYLE , YOU , YOURSELF, ARE MAKING POINTS OF CRITICISM AGAINST IT AND TRY TO DEFEND YOUR OWN IMAGINARY CRITCISM.
IT ONLY SHOWS HOW DESPERATE YOU ARE TO DEFEND THE UNDEFENDABLE!!
WHAT MAKES THE FAITH HOME SYSTEM NOT ONLY UNSCRIPTURAL BUT ALSO ANTI SCRITPTURAL?
1. IT HAS BECOME A SHELTOR FOR THOSE WHOSE FAMILIES WERE BROKEN BY TPM’S WRONG DOCTRINE OF SEPARTATING HUSBAND AND WIFE. THE BIBLE SAYS LET NO MAN ( OR DEVIL) SEPARTE WHOM GOD HAS JOINED TOGETHER . ( MT. 19: 6)
I PERSONALLY KNOW OF SO MANY FAMILIES DESTROYED BY TPM’S EVIL DOCTRINE OF SEPARATING THE HUSBAND AND WIFE AND EVEN THE SIBLINGS TOO.
THEY SEND THE HUSBAND ( WORKER) TO ONE FAITH HOME AND THE WIFE TO ANOTHER AND IF THEY HAVE TWO CHILDREN THEY TOO ARE SENT TWO DIFFERENT FAITH HOMES. THIS IS THE HEIGHT OF CRUELTY AND THE FAITH HOME SYSTEM OF LIFE HAVE BECOME PLACES OF SHELTER TO THESE SEPARATED SPOUSES AND SIBLINGS.
2. THIS STYLE OF LIVITNG IS DYMATRICALLY OPPOSED TO THE TEACHING OF THE BIBLE WHICH SAYS THAT THOSE WHO ARE INVOLVED IN PASTORAL MINISTRY ( PASTORS , DEACONS & ELDERS) MUST BE MARRIED , TAKE GOOD CARE OF THEIR SPOUSES AND CHILDREN. ( 1 TIM. 3: 2, 4& 5, 12) TITUS 1: 5& 6)
HOW COULD THE FAITH SYSTEM EVER ACCOMODATE A PASTOR OF CHURCH ‘ TO RULE HIS OWN HOUSE, HAVING HIS CHILDREN IN SUBJECT WITH ALL GRAVITY” ?( 1 TIM. 3: 4)
PASTOR ALWIN ,THE GREATEST INTELLECTUAL GIANT THAT TPM HAS EVER HAD, FORMUALTED THIS SYSTEM NOT TO ALLOW THE PASTORS AND ELDERS OF THE CHURCH TO GET MARRIED AND TO SEPARATE AND DESTR0Y THEIR FAMILIES IF THEY ARE ALREADY MARRIED.
MY DEAR BROTHER GEORGE , CALL IT A LIFE STYLE OR DOCTRINE HOW COULD, OR A SPECIAL REVELATION FROM HEAVEN, ANY ONE WHO CALLS HIMSELF A CHRISTIAN EVER SUPPORT THIS UNSCRIPTURAL SYSTEM?
3. PASTOR RAMAKUTTY PAUL OUR FOUNDER DID NOT LIVE A FAITH HOME STYLE LIFE AND THAT IS WHY TWO KIDS WERE BORN TO HIM AFTER HE STARTED THE CPM CHURCH.
NO ONE WHO LOVES THE WORD OF GOD COULD EVER COME FORWARD TO DEFEND THIS EVIL , MAN MADE
( ALWIN MADE) SYSTEM CALLED FAITH HOME LIFE STYLE.
WITH CHRISTIAN LOVE AND PRAYER
DANIEL
SEE GENERALLY, WOMEN ARE THE CENTER POINTS FOR THE PROBLEM IN ANY FAMILY. (Parasuram)
Dear bro, this is a seriously gross statement. Such chauvinistic statements are not befitting for a Christian. Neither sin nor the grace of God distinguishes man and woman. The effect of both on man and woman are the same, though there are differences in responsibilities. And the blood of Christ is equally effective for both to cleanse.
THE THINGS THAT FALL INTO WOMAN’S HANDS WILL HAVE NO REDEMPTION (Parasuram)
But the person who brought redemption came through a woman.
Dear Georgesraju,
Greetings in the name of OUR Lord.
In your letter to Sam Alan dated October 5, you have stated and I quote”
“But I would like to emphasize the fact that you should respect your opponents’ choice of belief when engaging in mutual discussions.”
This above is a beautiful sentence in its structure and sense . But your advice that one should RESPECT HIS OPPONENT’S CHOICE OF BELIEF shows you are man with a good sense of humour, you being a TPM worker or beliver.
If there is any one church in the whole world which does not respect the views of an opponent in discussions is the TPM church .
That was the example and training given by the late Pastor Alwin.
1. He is the one who taught that his followers should not take the Holy Communion with any other Pentecostal church just because their teachings are slightly different from his own (CPM’S) teaching.
2. The TPMites know that their basic doctrines are not much different from that of the other Pentecostal churhes . But since their doctrines are a little different from that of the other Penteccostals the TPMites have made it rule that if one of their believers had taken communion in any other Pentecostal church such a believer would be refused communion in the TPM church unless and they repent and confess it. This is how it is in the EASTERN TPM churches. ( about the WEST you must ask Pastor Michael )
3. SOME OF THE TPMITES TAKE MEDICINE WHEN THEY FALL SICK AND OTHERS DO NOT.
BUT THEY WHO DO NOT TAKE MEDINCINE WHEN THEY FALL SICK ” RESPECT” THE VIEWS OF THEIR OWN BRETHERN SO MUCH THAT THEY WOULD REFUSE HOLY COMMUNION TO THEM !!!!
3. IF ONE OF THEIR OWN WORKERS GETS MARRIED THEY WOULD BRAND HIM A BACKSLIDER OR FALLEN MAN. THAT IS HOW THEY RESPECT THE OPPONENTS VIEW THAT A WORKER COULD GET MARRIED.
ANY ONE WHO IS FULL TIME WORKER IN INDIA AND SRI LANKA MUST WEAR WHITE CLOTHES. IF ONE OF THEIR WORKERS WANTS TO WEAR COLORED CLOTHES ( SISTERS , COLOURED SAREES) HE OR SHE HAS TO LEAVE THE MINISTRY .SUCH IS THE MANNER IN WHICH THEY APPRECIATE THIER OWN MINISTERS WHO WOULD LIKE TO WEAR SOME COLOUR CLOTHES. ( OR THE DRESS A LITTLE DIFFERENTLY.) WHAT GREAT WAY THEY RESPECT OTHERS VIEWS WITH REGARD TO THE COLOR OF UNIFORMS OF THEIR OWN !!!
I SHOULD HAVE SAID ” THAT IS HOW THEIR PASTOR ALWIN HAS TAUGHT THEM.
BUT IN THE WEST , ITS A DIFFERENT STORY. THE TPM FULL TIME WORKERS COULD WEAR CLOTHES IN ANY COLOUR THEY LIKE. ( PLEASE ASK PASTOR MICHAEL THOMAS MORE ABOUT IT.)
3. BROTHER GEORGESRAJU WHO CLAIMS TO BE A MEMBER OF THE TPM ALSO SAYS THAT ONE MUST RESPECT THE OPINION OF OUR OPPONENTS.
THIS TO SAY THE LEAST IS VERY HUMOUROUS. OR HE COULD BE VERY SARCASTIC.
TO CORRECT THIS MISTAKE WE COULD START FROM RESPECTING THE OPPOSITE VIEWS FROM WITHIN THE TPM CHURCH
THANKS , MY BROTHER
DANIEL
TO: Georgesraju,
Dear Brother,
Greetings in the name of our Lord.
I was greatly relieved when I read your letter to Brother Sam Alan dated october 5th. for you have expressed your sincere apology to him. ( But it was long over due)
2. ALSO , I AM HAPPY THAT YOU FINALLY , I REALLY MEAN FINALLY, YOU WERE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A LAMB WITH A CAPITAL L, AND lamb with a small l.
With Christian love , my brother
Daniel
Though GSR using the best driller in the world, it seems like penetration is nowhere near;
it’s bouncy and thick here. It reminds me of Mark chapter 4 verse 5.
only fool requires repetitive instruction because his head is as thick as rock.
In this argument podium
Some said TPM’s doctrines unacceptable because of
Reason 1, Reason 2 …………Reason n
Well, according to this blog (if you read very carefully and have the courage to accept the TRUTH as per Bible) Those reason 1, reason 2…. Reason n have biblically been answered on behalf of TPM.
Then I don’t understand why some of the very old ripened fruits here unnecessarily SCREAM, like dogs growl at SUN. Christ forgave even the one who pierced him! Here people claim they are in Christ while keeping the vengeance for (72 minus 27) years!
We are all saved. We don’t differ on Jesus. We are all aiming to go to a home above; now this fight at this blog between members of the home above is like a fight b/w husband and wife over the choice of breakfast!
A Dysfunctional family! Dysfunctional Christianity!
Now, don’t tell me it’s a discussion of spiritual matter for the betterment of spirituality,
It’s not! Because I could see anger, rage and vengeance hidden in this blog!
GSR
I read your rebuttal, with great interest. Thanks for all your arguments to defend ‘Alwinism’s
crown jewel, ‘Zion’ for the men who not defiled with women.” If we we give it a literal interpretation, it could mean that women are not in Zion!
Heresies are born when the the word of God is taken out of context, and is ‘co- mingled ‘, like you do all the time to prove your point. It looks like Alwin’s Mantle has fallen on you!!!! God forbid you end up like Alwin!!
If Zion is only for those not defiled by women, why did not any of the Apostles mention it.
Paul says in Hebrews that we have already come to Zion, and to these people he says,”, let them come together, except for fasting and prayer.
If you or Pastor Alwin were talking about the same situation, you would have said “Go and defile yourself.”
Looks like some people are obsessed with idea, like ‘Alwin the heretic,’ that sex even within the confines of marriage is a form of defilement. This is what Alwin personally told me when I was a teenager. The words he used were so filthy that I will not mention it in a public forum!!
One preacher said that ” Some preachers cant look at a beautiful woman, and appreciate her beauty. Instead they think of SEX, because their minds are so filthy”.
I am beginning to think that Alwin lived a defeated life, the most part of his life, so he came up with the distorted revelation on Zion, to cover up his immorality, and his perverted mind, which is not accepted, by anyone else except the brainwashed TPMites. Is it any wonder that Alwin’s end was one of disgrace and shame!!!!
I shall return to fight ‘Alwinism’ again and again,with the ‘Double edged sword.’
Sam, the former defender of ‘Alwinism’.
gsr
Why not a woman for Chief Pastor in TPM?
How do you interpret, “there is no male or female in Christ.” I am sure you will get around this, with a little twisting, and co-mingling of the Word.
Any woman Apostles in TPM? AND WHY NOT????
T P M. Should be renamed, The Taliban Pentecostal mission, because of your LEGALISM.
Legalism does not promote HOLINESS, Grace does. I am beginning to wonder if anyone in TPM knows anything about grace.
I did not know what GRACE is , until the shackles of continuous guilt was broken, once and for ever, just by understanding and accepting his Grace. I was doing things to get God’s ‘UNMERITED FAVOR’, like in Hinduism and in other religions..
Thank God for wisdom, revelation,knowledge, and understanding , of my position in Christ.
MAY THE GRACE OF GOD BE WITH YOU.
I shall return.
Bro. George, in quickly scanning your blog, I believe you are refuting many of TPM’s teachings, perhaps unintentionally. Let me provide an example.
I had stated that TPM holds the obscure view that marriage defiles a person. This view is also articulated in “To TPM with Love”. Your response was that TPM does not hold that all married persons are defiled. I am happy to hear that. Your view is that marriage does not defile people who have the gift and calling to be married. However, your view contradicts TPM’s doctrine on Zion. Let me explain.
Rev 14:4 “those who are not defiled by women”. If marriage does not defile those who are called for a married life, it follows that those married people walking in their calling are “not defiled by women”; hence, they are not disqualified from entering Zion because of their marital status. Thus, we must acknowledge that these married people can go to Zion. However, according to TPM doctrine married people are disqualified from entering Zion.
TPM’s Zion doctrine holds that marriage defiles everyone. Otherwise, married people abiding in their calling could go to Zion, which certainly contradicts TPM’s all celibate Zion doctrine. George, I am glad you have rejected the view that all married people are defiled. I applaud you for that. I encourage you to continue to examine TPM doctrines with all sincerity in light of the Word of God to reach proper conclusions.
I trust we all see the difficulty in trying to defend Pastor Alwin’s doctrines. The more we examine them sincerely and honestly, the more we realize that they crumble like a house of cards. This is the reason many of our pastors generally say that our doctrines are the revelations given to our saints and it must be obeyed without putting them through the rigor of scriptural examination.
Since some strong words were exchanged here, I feel obligated to point out that whether George, Jacob, Biju Philip, or other TPM believers agree or disagree with me, I consider you as my brother/sister in Christ.
God bless
To Dear Brother Georgesraju
I refer you to your letter to Bro. Bob Alexander on August 28, 2009.
GEORGESRAJU’S SPECIAL LOVE FOR
THE ROMAN CATHOLIC BIBLE TRANSLATION!!
You have written, “1. Corinthians 9:5 might be the most misinterpreted verse in this blog.”
MY RESPONSE:
You have tried very hard to misinterpret this verse to twist its meaning to suit the erroneous and anti-scriptural teachings of the TPM Church regarding the apostles getting married and leading a normal married life. But you have miserably failed. That verse clearly says that Peter along with other apostles who were chosen by our Lord Himself were married and travelled with their respective wives wherever they went to minister the Word.
Since all the protestant translations of 1.Corinthians 9:5 indicate that apostle Peter and other apostles were married and travelled with their wives, you have desperately sought help from the Roman Catholic translation of that verse.
READ THE FOLLOWING CAREFULLY
“Don’t we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas?” (NIV)
“Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?” (KJV)
Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas? I. Corinthians 9:5 NKJV.
I can give you many more protestant translations to support what I mentioned above.
Dear Brother, you must have tried hard to get at least one protestant translation to support your erroneous view and you just couldn’t.
Finally you found the translation of Douay Rheims, which uses the word ‘women’ instead of ‘wife’. NO WONDER IT IS TRANSLATED THAT WAY BECAUSE IT IS ONE OF THE AUTHENTIC TRANSLATIONS OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH. They have used the word woman instead of wife because just like the TPM church, too believe that their clergy (Fathers, Brothers and Nuns) must have taken the vow of celibacy. Of course the Buddhist Monks and Hindu Hermits believe in this same kind of vow also!!
Since 1.Corinthinas 9:5 clearly states that the apostles (including their first Pope, Peter) were married and traveled with their wives, the Roman Catholic translated this verse in a different way. “Have we not power to carry about a woman, a sister as well as the rest of the apostles and the brethren of the Lord and Cephas?” (Douay Rheims).
One needs to know the following regarding the Roman Catholic Douay’s Bible. Its preface page states:
THE HOLY BIBLE
DOUAY-RHEIMS VERSION
TRANSLATED FROM THE LATIN VULGATE,
DILIGENTLY COMPARED WITH THE HEBREW, GREEK, AND OTHER EDITIONS IN DIVERS LANGUAGES.
The whole Douay-Rheims Bible was revised and diligently compared with the Latin Vulgate by Bishop Richard Challoner in 1749-1752 A.D. The notes included in the text were written by Dr. Challoner.
Pope Damasus assembled the first list of books of the Bible at the Roman Council in 382 A.D. He commissioned St. Jerome to translate the original Greek and Hebrew texts into Latin, which became known as the Latin Vulgate Bible and was declared by the Church to be the only authentic and official version, in 1546.
Dear Brother, when you want to support man(Alwin)-made unscriptural doctrines you have to stoop down to get the support of the Roman Catholic Church.
Mind you, this Douay Translation of the Bible is not translated from Hebrew and Greek (as all the significant protestant translations are), but from the Latin translation made by Fr. Jerome.
A careful study of the Church History would clearly show that Fr. Jerome did that translation to support some of the evil teachings of the Roman Church.
Daniel.
Response to Bro. Sam Alan’s post on October 5, 2009 at 4:16 am
Dear Sam, I am so glad that you asked this question. Let us share our understanding on Scriptures by such direct gives and takes based on the Word of God and reduce useless rhetorics.
When Paul said ‘ Except for fasting and prayer let them come together,’ was he talking to the people who had chosen the base calling as you say.
To offer a minor correction, I do not believe that callings is ‘chosen’ by us. The only choice in calling is to receive it or reject it. God will not give us a list of callings and tell us to chose one. Rather by his sovereign will he gives us a calling, with the freedom to accept or reject.
Let me quote the verse in full,
“Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency. ” (1 Cor 7:5)
Obviously this is a command to those who are called to be married and not to those who are called for celibacy. An unmarried person doesn’t have to be worried about defrauding his wife. Secondly this does not apply to those who are called to celibacy after marriage since the call to celibacy is associated with the gift to be continent. They are not incontinent to come together again.
Hence this verse is not agaist either a call to celibacy or husband and wife consecrating their marriage on mutual agreement. Call to celibacy is only for those who are continent and this verse allows voluntary separation of husband and wife if they are continent, for the sake of spiritual matters.
Were there any destined to Zion in his audience? If so he was permitting defilement?
There is nothing given in the context that can answer this question. There could be or could not be any destined for Zion. In either case this verse doesn’t pose any problem. The permission to be joined again is for sake of their incontinency. Since a person destined to Zion is continent he doesn’t have to necessarily come together again. Following this Paul says,
“But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment. For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.” (v 6,7)
Paul after permitting husband and wife to come together again, follows on to say that either celibacy or coming together is not a commandment, but something that has to be done in accordance with one’s proper gift from God. Hence he was not permitting defilement, but exhorting them to do according to their calling.
One point that must be understood is that when the Bible tells a general statement it need not be applicable to all irrespective of their calling. For eg: When Paul wrote “Husbands, love your wife” it was not applicable for himself because he didn’t have a wife. Similarly whether the Corinthian audience had those who destined for Zion or not 1 Cor 7:5 is to those who are in a marriage relationship.
GOD BLESS.
Heb 13:4
Marriage is honourable in all. The object here is to state that honour is to be shown to the marriage relation. It is not to be undervalued by the pretence of the superior purity of a state of celibacy, as if marriage were improper for any class of men, or any condition of life; and it should not be dishonoured by any violation of the marriage contract. The course of things has shown that there was abundant reason for the apostle to assert, with emphasis, that “marriage was an honourable condition of life.” There has been a constant effort made to show that celibacy was a more holy state; that there was something in marriage that rendered it dishourable for those who were in the ministry, and for those of either sex who would be eminently pure. This sentiment has been the cause of more abomination in the world than any other single opinion claiming to have a religious sanction. It is one of the supports on which the Papal [TPM] system rests, and has been one of the principal upholders of all the corruptions in [faith homes] monasteries and nunneries. The apostle asserts, without any restriction or qualification, that marriage is honourable in all; and this proves that it is lawful for the ministers of religion to marry, and that the whole doctrine of the superior purity of a state of celibacy is false. —Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament
Response to Biju Philip for the comment posted on October 5, 2009, 8:49 p.m.:
Dear Philip,
I, who is not a pro-TPM blogger, participate in this blog looking for answers to my questions. Not to vent our hate or vengeance.
On a recent VOP edition, I read that TPM leadership has decided not to do ministry by internet or television media.
While there are many Apostles in these days who have cut barriers across churches through the media, why is not TPM doing the same? Are not Apostles supposed to be freelancers who are not restricted by a denomination or church (going by the example set forth by Apostle Paul)? I have been in TPM for 20 years now, and I have heard many sermons and warnings that TPM’ites should never visit other churches.
Response to George for comment posted on August 14, 2009, 4:43 a.m.:
Dear George,
Let us not get into making a head count of who brought how many into Christ. This is against the will of God. My point was while many churches are using their charity wings to bring people to Christ, TPM also should consider such an option. I am sorry if I had hurt you in my earlier post. I personally know quite a few TPM friends who are physically disabled and financially deprived and have obtained help from the mainstream churches.
1. 1 Tim 4:1-3, “…we should properly understand this verse as reference to a total forbidding of marriage seen occasionally among certain cult groups throughout the history of Christianity.” (George).
With respect, this is a frivolous argument that is not worth refutation. It is frivolous to argue that because TPM only demands celibacy from workers, it is somehow not guilty of violating the scriptures. Having a church doctrine that demands celibacy from anyone, whether it is from clergy or from laity, is a satanic doctrine according to 1 Tim 4:1-3. Since Pastor Alwin was giving heed to devils and seducing spirits, it makes perfect sense as to why our doctrine is in direct violation of the scriptures.
2. The current TPM leaders allow married pastors in the Americas without discriminating against them according to Pastor Michael Thomas. I hope that soon the leadership will have the courage to cease demanding celibacy from the clergy in the east.
3. Possible solution: TPM can conform to the Scripture by advocating (advocacy is not stipulation) celibacy for the sake of serving the Lord without distraction if one has such a gift and calling without discriminating against married ministers. TPM should also abjure Pastor Alwin’s Zion doctrine.
4. ““Husbands, love your wife” it was not applicable for himself because he didn’t have a wife.” (George)
George, you are quite humorous. Obviously, it was not applicable to Paul because Paul was not a husband; he was a single man. It addresses husbands, not single men.
5. “Then I don’t understand why some of the very old ripened fruits here unnecessarily SCREAM, like dogs growl at SUN.” (Biju Philip)
Brother Biju Philip, this was uncalled for and a very low blow.
6. To everyone: Allow me to make a suggestion. If any of us are angry at the comments of another, please do not blog in the heat of the moment. Take a few days off, pray about it, let the anger subside, and then offer your considered views. If we are not having a discussion in love, we are misrepresenting our Lord.
Response to Bro. Biju’s post on October 5, 2009 at 8:49 pm
Yes Bro. Biju. I agree with you. Even though we can explain to them the reason we believe, only God can open their heart to this truth. Those who doesn’t have a deeper
understanding of the Scriptures have always ridiculed those have it; its a phenomenon in Christianity. If you ask Lutherans or Brethrens, or Reformed churches they
will be very pleased to tell that the Pentecostal movement is a cult. But we as Pentecostals in general, have nothing much to ridicule about them since their doctrines
are not wrong, rather only incomplete. In the same way some Pentecostals here, with a superficial understanding of the Bible think that whatever they don’t know is
false. Pastors in most Pentecostal churches think they are qualified by their Bible college degrees and consider what they are taught by their professors as the ultimate truth. Hence not only are they open to the teaching and instruction of the Holy Spirit, they rather start preaching about the truths that they haven’t learnt in Bible schools.
We must suffer them long with all forgiveness hoping that God will open their eyes to the truth.
Response to Bro. Daniel Manickam’s post on October 7, 2009 at 10:02 am
Dear bro, your post reveals that you not read completely or properly my explanation for 1 Corinthians 9:5. You are arguments are rather emotional than intellectual.
Were I making my point just based on Daouay Rheims translation? Or does a translation becomes automatically false just because it was translated by a Catholic? If you doesn’t know the logical fallacy in your argument please watch this video:
– The authenticity and accuracy of a translation, whether Catholic, Protestestant, Jehovah Witness or agnostic, has to be verified by comparing against the original language – Greek for NT and Hebrew/Aramaic for the OT. Both Catholic and Protestant scholars have theological considerations while translating, especially the difficult passages. For eg: the Protestant translation NASB made by the Reformed (Calvinistic) churches have put much skill to tranlate the verses central to Calvinist-Arminianist dialogue in a way easy for the Calvinist to interpret. There is no universal rule that all Protestants are honest and all Catholics are dishonest. Is There?
– Since I knew that the DR version was based on the Latin Vulgate and that you can come up with such an ad hominem argument, that I had given a rather elaborate discussion based on the original Greek. To ignore all that and to claim that just because I quoted from the DR and you from the NIV mine is wrong and yours is right, without giving any reason as to why is it so, based on the original language, is childish.
– The KJV in its translation notes gives “wife: or, woman” for 1 Cor 9:5
– I have made it clear why “a believing wife” in NIV is inaccurate based on the original language. NIV is an interpretive tranlsation where the translators have enough freedom in reconstructing the verses based on their understanding.
Hence rather than wailing for my special love for Roman Catholic translation, or taking it for granted that the DR version is biased, produce the proof for what you are saying. Even if not a single English translation translates it as “woman”, still, that doesn’t make my interpretation false as Paul wrote it not in English but in Greek.
The whole Douay-Rheims Bible was revised and diligently compared with the Latin Vulgate by Bishop Richard Challoner in 1749-1752 A.D. The notes included in the text were written by Dr. Challoner.
The notes you have given shows that “DILIGENTLY COMPARED WITH THE HEBREW, GREEK, AND OTHER EDITIONS IN DIVERS LANGUAGES.”. Why didn’t you see Greek and Hebrew in what you posted?
Again, its not an error to compare with the Latin Vulgate (even NIV does it) as St. Jerome translating in the 5th century should have had access to more early Greek manuscripts than we currently have. Hence its utmost important to see what the Vulgate reads.
So base your argument on concrete facts, rather than Catholic-Protestant sentiments.
My dear Gsr,
Just returned from Church. What a great sermon
by our new Pastor titled “When evening falls.’
He was targeting people who are depressed on this Thanks giving day, in Canada. He assured us that God is our friend, regardless of who we are and what we have done, because he gave his life for us. Pleas read his sermon “Preaching to the preacher.” It is a classic. I wish all TPM Pastors read it.
Let each man abide in his calling. If God does not let me into Zion, just because I am abiding in my calling, married and living with my wife and children, and also getting defiled, you know what I mean, he will be contradicting himself. Why should I be penalized for abiding in my calling??
Now that Alwin’s mantle has fallen on you, I am sure you will have an answer.
God has no base and high calling, and no favorites either. We are all his loving children, called to serve according to the grace bestowed upon us, married or unmarried.
According to Alwin A man born a eunuch, had to be healed first to qualify for Zion. When I heard this as a teenager, it did not have a ring of truth in it. None of the senior who were present did, have the guts to question Alwin, for fear of demotion, etc.
John Milton the poet “on his blindness’ said
“They also serve who only stand and wait.”
Sam.
I shall return.
Ecclesiatical Enslavement and Doctrinal domination.
Multitudes of sincere and trusting believers are caught in a virtually invisible web of religious captivation
in Charismatic and other Neo-Pentecostal Churches and don’t even know it!!!!!!!!
Recently on my visit to India I attended a Sunday morning service, of one of the prominent Pentecostal
Churches in India. The Pastor in his sermon, commanded the believers not to attend any other service but theirs. He also mentioned that they would like to know which church they attended, in case they did. It was a surprise to me.
Just a few minutes back, I opend my Philips translation of the Bible, and my eyes fell on Isaiah 10:1″ Shame on you who make unjust laws, and publish burdensome decrees, depriving the poor of justice, robbing the the weakest of my people of their rights.” Many burdens and laws have been heaped on
unsuspecting people who are led like sheep to the slaughter, all under the guise of holiness, and subimission to those in spiritual authority.
Judaism built a wall arround itself for two reasons:
1. To keep people out.
2. To keep people in.
The misuse of spiritual authority in a church setting is most of the time to keep people ignorant of the word of God, so that they would believe and follow their beliefs and doctrines of their particular interpretation, and thereby control people. Peter warned against this in 1 Peter 2-5.(Philips) Tend the flock of God whose shepherds you are, and do it not under compulsion, but of your own free will, as God would have it: not for gain but out of sheer devotion. not Tyrannizing over those who are allotted to your care, but setting an example to the flock!!!!!!!!
Holiness in any form or in any context cannot be legislated. It has to be the out working of Christ in you who is the hope of glory. Legalism, might sound and look good, but it breeds hate, dissention and spiritual death in the end. Each person has to grow to the extent he lets the Grace of God work in his life.
No one is justified by keeping the law.
Horrow stories of authoritarian abuse and exploitation and psychological enslavement in certified Christian Churches abound. Eccesiastical enslavement and exploitation is widespread in many churches. These groups are not radical fringe religious sects and cults, but well-respected church groups espousing orthdox Christian, beliefs, whose membership is comprised of a cross section of Americans, individuals and families, of every race, education level, and station of life.
The mechanisms of psychological manipulation, domination and control employed in these groups are virtually identical, to those employed by certified cults. Indeed the stark truth is that many of the groups and churches who employ these techniques, and mechanisms are themselves at the very minimum quashi-cults, and in some cases bona fide cults.
So what are the consequences and effects we are talking about here, a scant few disllusioned people with their feelings little hurt? Far from it!! We are talking about an immense number of broken and destroyed families, marriges, friendships, multitudes of sincre, trusting people are spiritually shipwrecked, potentially for life, and dont know it!! Added to these are a number of break downs, ( This happened to my mother, who was seperated from her young children and our father in her late twenties.)
health maladies, suicides, premature deaths due to related causes, and the like, just to name some of the consequences experienced by victims. Indeed the havoc and decimation wreaked upon victims are far too extreeme and frankly, morose to possibly able to relate here. but suffice it to say it is sweeping, mind boggling; and sadly in some cases barring the miraculous, irreversable!!!!!!!
Let us stand fast in the Liberty, whereby we have been set free. Let us not be bound by man made doctrines, and practices. Let us come under the Lordship of Jesus our blessed redeemer and Gracious Father, Jesus Christ, who gave his Life for our redemption and freedom. If the Son has set you free you are free indeed!! Let God be glorified in our lives, and our freedom.
DEAR FRIENDS WHO APOSE TPM,
CAN YOU LIVE WITHOUT HAVING ANY FOOD FOR DAYS,CAN YOU PEOPLE SURVIVE WITHOUT HOUSES AND LIVE IN TENTS LIKE PAS PAUL,PAS:ALWYN AND MANY BELIVERS AND PASTORS WHO HAD SUFFERED A LOT IN THE PAST
CAN YOU SUFFER IN PAIN WITHOUT TAKING MEDICINE FOR A FEVER , HEADACE,TOOTHACHE,STOMACHACHE,ETC…
FOR ONE DAY CAN YOU DEDICATE ALL THE ABOVE AND LIVE THINK IT PRACTICAL IT’S VERY EASY TO SIT AND COMMENT.
IF U PEOPLE CANT LIVE A HOLY LIFE … STOP COMMENTING..
TURN UNTO JESUS WHEN HE IS GRACEFUL OR ELSE YOU WONT GET ANY MERCY EVEN IF YOU CRY…
DONT BE DESTROYED.. PLS TURN BACK TO JESUS
GOD BLESSS,
SOLOMON.
TO:
BROTHER GEORGE
In your letter to Sam Alan you have quoted 1 Cor. 7: 5.
” Defraud ye not one the other except it be with the consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fastging and prayer”
When such is the command of our Lord, how would you, my brother, justify the LONG HISTORY OF THE TPM CHURCH , of separating married couples when they join the ministry, they are separated and are sent to live in different faith homes – even siblings are sent to live in different faith homes.
I know of scores of workers families destroyed by this Alwinian teaching of separating married couples in the name of ministry.
Did not our Lord say,” Whom God has joined together let no one put assunder”? ( Mt. 19 : 6)
My brother, when TPM blantantly breaks the command of God not to separate the families , do you want to still continue to be a member of such a church? I know belonging to any church is a matter of your choice. I have no right to ask to leave that church. But I am writing this for the favour of your kind consideration.
Daniel
Dear brethren, as I am shifting from one city to another due to the demands of my professional life, I may be disconnected from internet for some time. As I review from the time I joined this discussion I see that I have not responded to some points due to the lack of time. If God wills, I promise to return as soon as I can to offer my understanding on few points which I really want to address. Since I will be checking emails at office or a cafe I welcome all who want to be in touch with me at
georgesraju@gmail.com
To those who were strongly on my opposition side, if you consider me as a fellow brother in Christ and if you think beyond these differences there is a broad area where we can have spiritual fellowship, I request you to keep in touch with me through the above mail ID.
So till the time I return, let the grace of God be with us and let God guide you all to write in His wisdom and truth.
Keep me in your prayer, especially for the challenges I have to face at the new place.
In Christ,
George.
Dear Biju,
In your letter dated August 5, 2009 you have stated and I quote:
“I am almost so negligent that I don’t even consider point number 1 to be worthwhile to argue, you know why I go to a TPM church where my Pastor and his wife live together. Few years ago, there were married people taken into full time ministry from Chennai
THIS IS INCREDIBLE AND I WOULD REQUEST THE NAME OF PLACE WHERE YOUR FAITH HOME IS LOCATED AND ITS PHONE NUMBER.
I AM SURE YOUR FAITH HOME IS IN THE WEST. IF THIS WERE SO THEN IT MAKES IT ALL MORE CLEAR THAT TPM PLAYS A DOUBLE GAME.
I SHALL BE GRATEFUL IF YOU COULD REPLY ME WITH THE INFORMATION THAT I HAVE REQUESTED. THANKS.
Your brother in the Lord
Daniel
Dear Biju,
In your letter dated August 5, 2009 you have stated and I quote:
“I am almost so negligent that I don’t even consider point number 1 to be worthwhile to argue, you know why I go to a TPM church where my Pastor and his wife live together. Few years ago, there were married people taken into full time ministry from Chennai”
THIS IS INCREDIBLE AND I WOULD REQUEST YOU TO SEND ME THE NAME OF PLACE WHERE YOUR FAITH HOME IS LOCATED AND ITS PHONE NUMBER.
I AM SURE YOUR FAITH HOME IS IN THE WEST. IF THIS WERE SO THEN IT MAKES IT ALL MORE CLEAR THAT TPM PLAYS A DOUBLE GAME.
I SHALL BE GRATEFUL IF YOU COULD REPLY ME WITH THE INFORMATION THAT I HAVE REQUESTED FOR. THANKS.
Your brother in the Lord
Daniel
why do you’ll critisize c.p.m.? when christ too was on the cross of calvaryhe bore all what others did for our sake and for your sake. because he gave himself for us only we are not consumed i am also a c.p.m. believer and in divine healing. just consider and see what will happen to you in the white thrown judgement by knowing all these you are not fulfilling but criticising. god will definetly save you some day you will be comming to our church some day dont worry he will help you. may god bless you! God is good!
Dear Brother George,
With reference to your posting dated Oct. 11, supporting the Daouoy’s translation of the Bible , I would like to state , the Roman church would be so pleased to go through letters that they might even give you a nice award.
For , They would have least expected such a whole support from any one of the Protestant faith – specially from a Pentecostal person. If only if you could post your letter in one of the R.C. web sites you would get tremendous appreciation.
All most all the Protestant groups oppose the Roman Church’s translations Bible from the Latin language instead of the original languages . This, was done with the deliberate purpose of using their translation to SUIT THE ERRONEOUS TEACHING OF THE ROMAN CHURCH. The whole Protestant world is aware of this. Owing TO the aweful pressure from the Protestants , they have of late come out with a couple of translations directly from the original languages, like the New Jerusalem Bible.
And , I would like to inform Bro. GSR that the R.C. Bible translated from the ORIGINAL LANGUAGES transalate 1 Cor.9: 5 , like most of the protestant traslation have done.
Dear Brother GSR, ” HAS THOU APPEALED UNTO CEASER? UNTO CEASER THOU SHALT GO.” !!!!
Pl. continue reading :
Right at the outset, the THE NEW AMERICAN(R. C) BIBLE says,” TRANSLATED FROM THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGES WITH CRITICAL USE OF ALL THE ANCIENT SOURCES”
Now I would like to draw the attention of Bro. GSR and the TPM church that he vehemently supports to carefully readhow this R. C. Bible has traslated
1 Cor.9:5:
“DO WE NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO TAKE ALONG A CHRISTIAN WIFE , AS DO THE REST OF THE APOSTLES , AND THE BROTHERS OF THE LORD , AND KEPHAS”
This transaltion makes it crystal clear that :
1. Kephas ( Apostle Peter) was married and he took along his wife , who was a believer.
( Just like the late Pastor Paul , the CPM founder, Pastor Joseph of Vellore, and Pastor Manoharan have done.)
( Just like quite a few of America’s Pastors do !!)
2. So did the rest of the Apostles did for that was how most of the First apostles lived and ministered.
3. Apostle Paul ( who perhaps was not married or became a widower ) states that he too had the right to get married and continue to render his Apostolic ministry just like the REST OF THE APOSTLES.
Come on , my dear Brother GEORGE, please stop defending the undefendable.
Do you honestly believe , my Brother, that Apostle Peter to whom God said,” FEED MY CHURCH” ( Take care of my church) could be married and travel along with his wife to minister , and Apostle Paul could not lead the same life style and continue to serve as a minster?
In the name of OUR Lord I plead with you, stop defending the SELF STYLED SAINTS AND START STANDING UP FOR WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS.
With much prayer
Daniel
The arguments submitted in defense of TPM’s unscriptural doctrines actually undermine its doctrines.
Defense 1. Tertulian taught the pretentious superior purity of celibacy in the second centaury.
Tertullian was the most famous supporter of a cult called Montanism in his later years. To defend TPM’s satanic doctrine of forbidding minister to marry (1 Tim 4:1-3), one has to rely on the doctrines of another cult.
Defense 2: Catholic bible supports TPM’s unscriptural practice of celibacy of clergy.
To defend TPM’s satanic practice of forbidding clergy to marry (1 Tim 4:1-3), one can only find support in a catholic bible, not in any protestant bible.
Defense 3: Jesus’ teachings regarding commitment was only applicable to full time minister
In the New Testament, there is no spiritual difference between priests and laity. [Because the office of a pastor must be above reproach, a denomination can impose certain conditions that are not in violation of the scriptures].
Defense 4: It was incorrectly claimed that TPM doctrine holds that those who have the gift and calling to be married are not defiled because of their marital status.
If that is the case, it fallows that married people who are abiding in their calling are not defiled by women (Rev 14:4) ; hence, they are not disqualified from entering into Zion. However, TPM would never allow married people to enter into TPM style Zion, which according to our pastors is reserved for celibate people. Thus, the defense submitted is a self-refuting.
As I stated before, even pastor Alwin, the author of TPM doctrines and practices, could not successfully defend his doctrines. This is the reason our pastors generally tell us that our doctrines are “deep revelations” of our saints and that they must be obeyed without question. Most of our current pastors do not know that our doctrines were established by the excommunicated late Pastor Alwin.
We do not need to feel obligated to defend the satanic doctrines (1 Tim 4:1-3) of late Pastor Alwin. Let us follow the bible! Let us follow TPM’s practices in the Americas as stated in the email (To TPM with Love), which is consistent with the scriptures.
God bless!
The arguments submitted in defense of TPM’s unscriptural doctrines actually undermine its doctrines.
Defense 1. Tertulian taught the pretentious superior purity of celibacy in the second centaury.
Tertullian was the most famous supporter of a cult called Montanism in his later years. To defend TPM’s satanic doctrine of forbidding minister to marry (1 Tim 4:1-3), one has to rely on the doctrines of another cult.
Defense 2: Catholic bible supports TPM’s unscriptural practice of celibacy of clergy.
To defend TPM’s satanic practice of forbidding clergy to marry (1 Tim 4:1-3), one can only find support in a catholic bible, not in any protestant bible.
Defense 3: Jesus’ teachings regarding commitment was only applicable to full time minister
In the New Testament, there is no spiritual difference between priests and laity. [Because the office of a pastor must be above reproach, a denomination can impose certain conditions that are not in violation of the scriptures].
Defense 4: It was incorrectly claimed that TPM doctrine holds that those who have the gift and calling to be married are not defiled because of their marital status.
If that is the case, it fallows that married people who are abiding in their calling are not defiled by women (Rev 14:4) ; hence, they are not disqualified from entering into Zion. However, TPM would never allow married people to enter into TPM style Zion, which according to our pastors is reserved for celibate people. Thus, the defense submitted is a self-refuting.
As I stated before, even pastor Alwin, the author of TPM doctrines and practices, could not successfully defend his doctrines. This is the reason our pastors generally tell us that our doctrines are “deep revelations” of our saints and that they must be obeyed without question. Most of our current pastors do not know that our doctrines were established by the excommunicated late Pastor Alwin.
We do not need to feel obligated to defend the satanic doctrines (1 Tim 4:1-3) of late Pastor Alwin. Let us follow the bible! Let us follow TPM’s practices in the Americas as stated in the email (To TPM with Love), which is consistent with the scriptures.
God bless!
idiots and waste people who left their country talks against the organization within the country after gaining little knowledge and learning little english.
It was asserted that the state of celibacy is relatively a purer state than the state of marriage. Let’s see if God agrees with this view.
What is God’s view of celibacy?
“And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him” (Gen 2:18)
GOD DECLARES THAT THE STATE OF CELIBACY IS A BAD STATE OR NOT A GOOD ONE!!! God’s pronouncement is that marriage is preferred to celibacy. Therefore, let us reject unscriptural view that there is some superior purity associated with the state of celibacy.
mihira
Just a line to let you know that I am saved.
Also I grew up in the F. Homes, and God delivered me from CPM and Alwinism.
I suffered more than your present day pastors and, and endured all forms of abuse, in the CPM Faith homes. Some of them were on the way to Zion. They thought so.
My prayer for you is that you will come to know the truth, and be delivered from Alwinism.
I do not wish the demise of TPM, but deliverence from Alwinism.
God bless.
please be careful to speak like this. Pray that god may speak yo you and save you from judjement
The Pentecostal Doctrines are one of the best doctrines in the Pentecostal world. It is very difficult for anybody to do this kind of ministry in the last days, because the period has now come as to the period of Lot and Noah.
May Lord open your eyes of understanding. Spend some more time reading and meditating on the word of God. Soon you will
regret for this unwarranted post.
God Bless you
Dear Johnnykutty,
Every cult claims to have the best of doctrines.
Let me name a few:
The J.W’s
Mormans.
Seventh day Adventists.
Christian science.
Did you know that there will be no TPM churches in the west, if not for the people from the East. 98% of the people in TPM Churches in the West are from the East. The few American and others are there because they are sincere men like Don Spires who was brainwashed by people like AC Thomas, who himself was a power hungry man. I lived and moved with AC. He had it good. Ac Was probably a good man morally speaking. But who knows? After Alwin’s fall anything is possible. Thank God for the many sincere people who live a holy life in TPM. Too bad these people are brainwashed, and know nothing but ‘Alwinism.’
I will return.
Sam.
i love animals
Hi all,
CPM is a terrorist organization i believe..because like terrorists they are following some rules. I know they follow god 50% but not 100%. All are running just because of money. Ask a pastor in CPM to preach to believers(who r going to church for generations) to make his son or daughter marry to another caste or without dowry. Its very hard to find such kind of pastors to preach in that manner and include that in CPM doctrine.
They say we are not worldy..but remember the so called caste,status,pride,dowry…are all born in world..
If a CPM pastor is able to preach the same i mentioned…I am sure..most of the belivers will turn to someother church or even back to other religions. I am the one who got fed up living in a CPM family and their so called doctrines….
About divine healing…i would like to say an example: Dont study or prepare for examination and just pray to god to make u pass…WILL U EVER SUCCEED in that exam. A big NO from ur mouth right…The same way..is take medicines and pray to god…God will help you to become alright and healthy… This is just my views and the holes i found in CPM.
And is the CPM church pastors living the live the same in Abroad as in India…. I would say a BIG NO. Because no Indian pastors who are settled in USA CPM church will ever wish to come to India if they are transfered unless he is given a big post in the church.
So considering all the things….i believe strongly CPM though people are turned to god….But they are not trasformned well to show the difference from the wordly people. All are same….u and the worldy people….
Dont live for offerings…live for people’s change from worldy life..Then i will accept u as a christian divine organization..
I hate to live a CPM church goer……..rather i will sit at home and pray to god. I dont want any intermediate between me and God especially the so called CPM people showing me the way…
Regards,
With full of problems faced by CPM family members of mine,
SPS
Response to Bro. Bob’s post on November 8, 2009 at 12:05 pm
When I speak with people from Pentecostal background I usually assume that they adhere to basic truths that are commonly agreed upon. I do not expect them to overturn the foundation on which they are standing. But here I find people doing it as they deliberately ignore such basic concepts like progressive revelation on which Pentecostalism and even Christianity stands. I wonder if there are Bibles which jumps from Gene 2:18 directly to Reve 14:4 so as to ignore the whole theology and progressive revelation between these.
I would like to remind my brother that after Gene 2:18 such theologically important events like the fall, the incarnation, the atonement and the ministries of Jesus and Paul took place and God has revealed a lot of spiritual truths which you seemed to have missed. After the fall no human being on earth ever lived, lives or will live in an Edenic condition. Neither in the church age, nor in the Millenium, not even in Eternity. Hence the principles of human life in Eden is no longer a benchmark for a Christian life.
Bro. Bob seems to be in the same boat of Pastor Alwin whom he so vehemently opposes. Both believes that they need to look back to Eden to understand the ideal lifestyle. It led the latter to gross error. Hope Edenism won’t be advocated to that level.
What is God’s view of celibacy?
Good question. As we are living in the church age, our life and theology has to be framed based on the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles. What did Jesus and His Apostles teach about it? That is the rock on whch our faith stands.
“For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.” (Matt 19:12)
Whenever Jesus uses phrases like “He that is able to receive it, let him receive it” or “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith” (Reve 2:7) etc. it is clear that the one who receives and the one who hears is the one who has chosen the best and the not the one who does not receive or hear it. We don’t need a doctorate in theology to understand this. See Matt 11:15; Matt 13:9; Matt 13:43; Mark 4:9 etc.
Hence according to Jesus the state of being an eunuch for the sake of the kingdom of God is better than the state of being married. And obvioulsy there will be people who deny this truth because they are not able to receive it.
“It is good for a man not to touch a woman.” (1 Cor 7:1)
The Apostle again confirms the same multiple times. And don’t tell it is his opinion, he doesn’t say it regarding 7:1. He reiterates this multiple times in the same chapter.
“So then he that giveth her in marriage doeth well; but he that giveth her not in marriage doeth better.” (1 Cor 7:38)
“And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him” (Gen 2:18)
According to some Apostle Paul and even Jesus didn’t have such “deep” revelation since both of them led a single life which is not good in the Lord’s eyes! While people like Muhammed did 11 times better as he had 11 wives!
But as I see the Lord God didn’t say “It is not good that the man should be unmarried/celibate”. He only said “It is not good that the man should be alone”.
“Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!” (Psa 133:1)
As Adam was the first man on earth God, for sake the sustaining human race on earth, chose to remove his loneliness through a wife. Now when there are over 6 billion people in the world and many millions of children of God you simply doesn’t need a wife to remove your loneliness. Jesus understood it, Apostle Paul understood it and TPM pastors too understand it.
God bless.
A friend of mine, recently wrote to me mentioning that his sister was denied fellowship, at a TPM Church in India because she refused to be baptized by TPM, as she has been already baptized by an Assemblies of God Pastor.
I wonder why? Can any one answer?
Thanks.
Sam.
I shall return.
Wow…so much of dispute for vain people who believes they are the new jerusalem(not in Israel) and Zion? These peole are decorated cemetries who do not believe in Jesus but in their Pastors and Faith home sisters..They refuse to believe that Jesus drank wine..Jesus though had an oppertunity to travel in chariots always walked (but all the so called holy pastors travel atleast in Maruthi 800 car)..They call themselves 144,000, christ’s chosen spotless bride.. chosen among men blah blah but they never had ever visited poor in prisons, clothed the naked,fed the hunger..no orphan schools, colleges for blind,money for the needy..but ready to waste money in thousand of dollars for their conventions….O YE TPM BELIEVERS REPENT..READ MOUNTAIN SERMON IN MATHEW..STOP BELIEVING IN YOUR PASTORS..they are just like us..mere men..life is so short..love your neighbors..Help one another..leave this world a trail that some lived by the principles of noble Jesus.. Peace be upon you..
Hi jack..
thanks for the advice on Mount sermon…I was a recent believer of CPM church in chennai..i came to know that there is no helping aid in TPM like orphanages,colleges etc..it is strongly occupied by dowry (bride money),nadar-malayali conflicts, strict caste marriages supported even by pastors, no power for women pastors,untouchability in silent terms and the list goes on..if these pastors have recieved revelation from god my question is why the hell couldn’t they predict the december04 Tsunami?..earth quakes..they could have saved many people dying..cant they? huh?..does god always gives useless revelations such as zion, blemishless spotless dove..?..I was married to a CPM believer and divorced..his mom made my life hell in making me not to wear jewels..switch of tv..no cinemas..anything..what do they gain by torturing people for 5 hours on a sunday without bothering about the welfare of the thousands of the poor believers?
hello guys why u people are arguing abt TPM and its belives. ithink lot of fools are in 56 countries they were belives and worships in TPM. one thing is true either this chitrs rachel and same like people are right nor the TPM belivers are wrong and fools.i hope rachel and her supporting peopls are true according to bible. bible says rightious be more rightious wiked be more wiked.am comming soon. one thing is true a blind man can see evry thing is blind its not his mistake becos he lives in darknes. but he dono there is a light and day. and i forcing rachel and her supporters more to say and accused TPM and its e belives and its appostels then only it will spred more and more countries
Make yourself an honest man, and then you may be sure there is one less rascal in the world.
These type of writings only reflects one’s jealousful perosnality and the ways they are taught by their uncivilized, retarded and immoral parents, peoples from low third class families, God does not give any right to criticize or judge others.
If you don’t like a church, you may go to other churches.
1 Cor 7
Command from the Lord: verses 10-11 & 18-24
Paul’s Opinions: verses 1-9, 12-17, 25-40
********
Hence the principles of human life in Eden is no longer a benchmark for a Christian life.(George Raju)
The principle regarding marriage/celibacy recorded in the Garden of Eden before the fall (Gen 2:18 & 24) is God’s perfect will according to Jesus (Mat 19:8). If anyone flouts this explicit teaching of Jesus in support of the erroneous teaching of TPM, it is not worthy of consideration.
Bro. Bob seems to be in the same boat of Pastor Alwin whom he so vehemently opposes.(George Raju)
Please refrain from ad hominem arguments.
Let me explain this one more time:
God has already judged that the state of celibacy is not a good one as a general rule for all class of people including clergy and laity (Gen 2:18) and it is still applicable to us (Mat 19:8). In the Old Testament, eunuchs (personal defect) and bastards were not allowed entrance into God’s congregation (Deut 23:1-2). Jesus taught that a some people are called to serve God without getting married (Mat 19:12). Apostle Paul in his OPINION advocates celibacy only for those who have such a gift and calling (1 Cor 7:7). Two of the reasons he provides for advocating celibacy are: severe persecution the church was facing (v 26) and to serve God without distraction (v 35). NB: Zion is not the reason Paul advocates celibacy; the chapter is addressed to all Christians, not just to clergy. However, a church doctrine that demands celibacy from clergy is a doctrine of devils and seducing spirits (1 Tim 4:1-3). A pastor must be the husband of one wife (1 Tim 3:2 & Tit 1:6). The relationship between Christ and the church is compared to the intimate relationship between a husband and wife (Eph 5:31-33). If intimacy within marriage were impure or defiling for any class of people, would the relationship between Christ and the church be compared to the intimacy within marriage? Marriage is honorable in all and bed undefiled (Heb 1:4). Most of the apostles were married and their wives accompanied them on the mission field (1 Cor 9:5).
Conclusion:
Marriage is the rule and celibacy is the exception.
If a person, pursuant to his call, chooses to serve God in a state of celibacy, it is scriptural.
If a church insists that its clergy must be celibate, it is a doctrine of devils and seducing spirits.
In order for TPM to be compliant with the scriptures, it must accept both celibate and married clergy in its ranks.
How did this blog side track into a battle between celebacy vs anticelebacy?
What Jack said stands in glaring contrast against all the scriptural demonstrations and solutions in favor of celebacy….READY TO WASTE MONEY IN THOUSANDS FOR ORGANIZED MEETINGS WHILE THERE ARE NO ORGANIZED INSTITUTIONS TO HELP THE POOR AND SICK!!
Can somebody give an explanation for this? Christmas is coming, so let us get our act together.
When I speak with people from Pentecostal background I usually assume that they adhere to basic truths that are commonly agreed upon. I do not expect them to overturn the foundation on which they are standing (George).
George, as I have pointed out many times before this too is an argument that undermines TPM’s doctrines. May I kindly remind you that TPM is the one church that does not “adhere to the basic truths that are commonly agreed upon by the Pentecostals”? It is TPM that has “overturned the foundation of basic truths that are commonly agreed upon by Pentecostals” in the context of marriage and celibacy. TPM is the one that has “overturned the commonly agreed upon truth by Pentecostals” regarding water baptism (see the post by Sam Alan on Dec 4, 2009). TPM is the one that has overturned the commonly agreed upon truth by Pentecostals regarding communion. TPM is the church that refuses to “adhere to the basic truths that are commonly agreed upon” by teaching the erroneous Zion doctrine.
George, TPM never appeals to the “commonly agreed upon basic truths” of Pentecostals in defending its doctrines. Our church appeals to the so called(progressive) “revelation” of Alwin contrary to the “commonly agreed upon basic truths”. Since you believe that you (and TPM) should adhere to the “basic truths that are commonly agreed upon by the Pentecostals” regarding marriage and celibacy, I invite you to adhere to the guideline you set for yourself.
God bless
sam alan
Some one used my name on the 20th of Dec
to write a very NASTY, UNCHRISTIAN comment
referring to the peoples parents as uncivilisedTo the preachers and would be preachers.
A recent sermon by my Pastor here at Richmond Pentecostal Church, Richmond Canada.
I have never heard a sermon a sermon like tis in all my life. May this bless all the readers.
********************************
Preaching to Qoheleth. Preaching to the Preacher.
We live in a spectator’s world.
We watch sports on TV.
We read romances and dream of the perfect relationship.
On some sport shows, they have fishing expeditions! I don’t get that; the fun is not watching someone else fish!
Why watch the great cooking show, when you cant taste the food?
So since we are so used to ’spectating.’ It should be quite easy to listen to this sermon this morning.
I have not heard anyone else preach a sermon like this before.
You can sit back ans “spectate” as I preach to myself.
The Pastor is always telling the congregation what they should do. Prehaps the preacher should get preached at.
Now I hope you’ve noticed that even when I am preaching normally, I try to say”we, “we” and “I’,not you.you.you!”–since the messenger is as sinful as the recipients.
But this morning, I would like to center almost totally on the preacher, the Pastor.
In the book of Ecclesiastes, otherwise titled ‘The preacher, there is person named Qoheleth. In Hebrew Qoheleth means” The Preacher. You will notice this morning’s message is “Preaching to Quoheleth.”
Preaching to the preacher! So Qoheleth, preacher, it is your turn to squirm and get your toes stepped on!
Therefore, you will notice preacher, that first on the list of Peter’s admonitions is the reference to the fact that the flock is under your care, you are not under theirs.
Preachers often get the idea that the church is to serve them, when in reality, you the preacher, are to be the servant. You are the one who gives. You are to be the one who toils.
Sheep don’t care for shepherds, shepherds care for sheep.
You will recall how he said , the Son of man came not to be served, but to serve, and give his life.
You preacher, of all men need to exemplify the truth that ” The distinctive of the Christian is to be the basin and the towel, not the scepter and the crown.”
It was Jesus that washed the disciples feet, not the other way around. And you will note well Qoheleth, that was in the most agonizing hour that he served them in that way.
You MAN of God, must serve and care for people when it is not convenient. When they call you at home. When it is your day off. When they are’nt totally appreciative. Yours is to care, to serve, and to love.
Preacher, remember the Apostle Paul, how he lived this manner of life. Remember how he spent himself on behalf of souls.
Recall how he told the people at Corinth that it’s the fathers who should save up for the children,not children for the Fathers!
And Q0heleth, Peter says he himself served as an overseer, yet went on to say, like Paul that the preacher must not be greedy, but be ready to serve and give.
Not only ready tot serve, said he, but eager! Why Because Peter says, that is the way that God wants it.
In Paul’s Epistles. he used a word that is irritating
to some. He says God has called us to be a servant or slave.
It isn’t lofty! It isn’t noble. Nobody wants to be a slave, or to be walked on, or to have things demanded of him.
But to that calling you have been summoned; you are to serve as a slave to Christ, and “What soever you have done to unto the least of these His brethren, you have done it unto Him!”
Qoheleth, you will do well to remember the immortal words of Dietrich Bonhoffer, who is in the tossing sea of the Hitler years, wrote THE COST OF DISCIPLESHIPH. The first sentence of the first page says” When Jesus calls a person, he bids him come and die.”
You should be like the men on the troopship in 1857. On board were the regiments of the 12th Lancers. But also on board were 124 women and children. When the ship was sinking, there was room only for the women and children, so Major Seaton drew the men up into presentation parade on the deck. There was not so much of a murmur as the ship was going down, for Seaton had given the command, “stand still and die like Englishmen.” And 454 men went down to a sea grave in soldierly. order, firm and steady fashion!
If you call your people to take up the cross preacher, you must show them how to die! You must take the lead! You must show the way! You, Qoheleth, are called by Almighty God, and when he called you it was to die
Light the path! Show the way!
Peter says the flock has been entrusted to your care.
The eternal Judge stands at the door to see how you measure up.
Paul says in 1Cor 4:2 “It is required that those who HAVE BEEN GIVEN A TRUST MUST PROVE FAITHFUL.”
HOW DO YOU STACK UP PREACHER?
Paul was able to say, “follow me as I follow Christ,” and even further, he told the people
at Thessalonica to be “mimics” of him!
Do you want your people doing all the things they see you doing, or do you want them to leave undone all the things they see you leave undone, preacher?
Can you say honestly that you would feel comfortable with them mirroring everything you are to do?
I would remind you qoheleth, that the most powerful method ever found for teaching is that of modeling!!! Jesus took 12 rough men and turned them into the most righteous force the world has ever seen, and his method of teaching was to model in front of them what he said on the Mount!
The Judge stands at the door, Qoheleth! How are you handling your trust?
Recall James the elder said you ‘d be judged more strictly!!
Peter said you are to be an example to the flock!
Are you, as Paul demanded of Timothy, above reproach?
In an age when preachers are dime- a- dozen, and the way is strewn with their failed carcases, let not immorality, power hunger, pride, selfishness, or any other demise ensnare Qoheleth; be above it all! Exhibit holiness! Exhibit righteousness! Exhibit humility! Admit your errors and stupidity!
I charge you Qoheleth,
Preach the word! Be instant in season and out of season. Reprove, rebuke, and encourage with all diligence, for the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine, but will turn away to what their itching ears want to hear. But you man of God, keep your head in all situations, do the work of an Evangelist, discharge all duties of your ministry. Don’t let anyone despise your youth, but set an example for all!
Qoheleth, I would remind you of the word you heard from your General Asst. Supt. Everett Stenhouse entitled”preach as you go.’
Fling him into his office, tear the office sign from the door, and nail on the door “Study.” Take him off the Mailing list, lock him up with his books typewriter and his Bible. Slam him down on his knees before texts, broken hearts, the flippant lives of a superficial flock , and the holy God.
Force him to be the one man in our surfeited communities who knows about God. Throw him in the ring to box with God ’til he learns how short his arms are; engage him to wrestle with God all the night through. Let him come out only when he is bruised and beaten into being a blessing. Set a time clock on him that will imprison him with thought and writing about God for 40 hours a week. Shut his mouth forever spouting ‘remarks’ and stop his tongue always tripping over everything nonessential. Require him to have say something to say before he dare break silence. Bend his knees in the lonesome valley, fire him from the country club membership; burn his eyes with weary study, wreck his emotional poise with worry for God, and make him exchange his pious stance for a humble walk with God and man. Make him spend and spent for the glory of God.
Rip out his telephone, burn up his ecclesiastical success sheets. Refuse his glad hand, and put water in his gas tank of his community buggy. Give him a Bible and tie him to the pulpit, and make him preach the Living word of God. Test him.quiz him; humiliate him for his ignorance of divine things, and shame him for his ignorance of things divine, and shame him for his glib comprehension of finances, batting averages and political in-fighting. Laugh at his frustrated effort to play psychiatrist, scorn his insipid morality, refuse his supine intelligence, ignore his broadmindedness which is only flat headedness, and compel him to be a minister of the word.
Form a choir and raise a chant and haunt him with it night and day with “Sir we would see Jesus.
When at long last, he dares assay the pulpit, ask him if he has a word from God? If he does not then dismiss him and tell him you can read the morning paper, digest the television commentaries. think through the day’s superficial problems, manage the communities myriad drives, and bless assorted baked potatoes, and green beans ad infinitum than he can. Command him not to come until he has read and re-red, written and re-written, until he can stand up, worn and forlorn, and say’ thus saith the Lord.’ Break him across the board of his ill-gotten popularity, smack him hard with own prestige, corner him with questions about God, and cover him with demands for celestial wisdom, give him no escape until he is backed against the wall of the word of God; then sit him down before him and listen to the only word he has left: Gods word. Let him be totally ignorant of the down street gossip, but give him a chapter and order him to walk around it, camp on it, suffer with it, and come at last to speak it backwards and forwards until all he says about it rings with with the truth of eternity.
” And when he is burned out by the flaming word. and when he is consumed at last by the fiery Grace blazing through him, and when he who was privileged to translate the truth of GOD to man is finally transfered from earth to heaven, then bear him away gently, blow a muted trumpet, and lay him down softly, place a two edged sword on his coffin, and raise a tune triumphant, for he was a brave soldier of the word and e’er he died he had become a spokesman for God.
I want to be that man!! I want to be that QOHELETH!
To be above reproach! To be a servant! To be faithful!!
WHY?? WHY?? One, because it is the single highest honor! It is the single most glorious calling. It is single most prestigious trust.
And, furthermore, two, one cannot shake it, you cannot ignore it, you cannot deny it–it burns in your bosom, and blazes in your soul. As Mark Galli writes: “What Pastor does not know discouragement? Sometimes we feel as though we preach in hot, flat stretches; all we see for miles are heat waves floating lazily from the white sand, and perhaps some cacti and lizard or two… as we trudge through the desert of despair, we continue to proclaim to the cacti and lizards. That is why after we have mentally loaded the U- Haul, we mentally reshelf our commentaries. That’s why after we have gone on a preaching strike( for six days), we preach again, and again and again. WE are like Jeremiah: But if I say I will not mention his name, his word is like a fire, a fire shut up in my bones. “I am weary of holding it in; indeed I cannot. In the end the heat within is greater than the heat without. And so so we preach in the relative cool of the desert”
And your job? How about if you pray for me? So that where the shepherd leads–in his faithfulness, in his humility, in his righteousness–the sheep can follow.
Sam Alan
Someone is wrote on the 20th of Dec. under my name. I did not write it. I apologize to all who were offended.
It is possible that his/her parents were retarded, ignorant, and uncivilized? These were some of the words he used.
No wonder he is writing the way he does.
Lets debate, and not resort to name calling.
I shall return.
Sam.
Hi Rachel.
Maybe what you say in your post has a point to a certain extent. I have never heard of this “TPM” (The Pentecostal Mission) before, so i am not sure whether you are refering to ALL Pentecostals or not. But I, as a United Pentecostal Church girl, must disagree with you.
Note, this is not to be judgemental or having any sort of “I’m-more-holy-than-you” attitude, because i do not believe it is my place to be judgemental, neither am i any better than you in any way. Neither do i believe that such criticisme is right in the eyes of God, nor should it be in the eyes of man. If these two (TPM and UPC) are, in fact, two different things, then forgive me for all of this UPC information. However, i believe that some points apply to both. So bear with me, please, and keep in mind that i am NOT judging; to do so WOULD mean that i think i am holier than you. And i do not.
About outward appearences: Normally in everyday life (not just in the Pentecostal denomination), you can tell a fair amount of someone because of their appearence. For example, what do you think of if i say “women with thigh-high leather boots, mini-skirts that barely covers the buttox, very tight and revealing haltertops and accessive amounts of make-up standing together at the corner”? As human beings, i can say with great confidence that most would think the same type of thing. What do you think of when i say “Baggy black pants, skull-covered black t-shirt or sweater, black fingerless gloves with black painted fingernails, chains hanging from the pants and belt, and white make-up covering a face full of silver-stud piercings”? Again, most would think the same thing. As a Pentecostal girl, i wear modest skirts (knee length and longer) and shirts that are not revealing in any way (have sleeves, a back, cover the belly, and do not reveal any of the brest area). This is not because it is a “rule” or a “cult practice” in any way. It is a standard, to be set apart, to be modest and keep the temple of the Lord (our bodies) pure. Christ dwells in us when we let him, thus our body and the way we dress is a reflection of him in our soul. Do you see churches with graffiti all over them and holes in the walls and cieling with the most horrible paint-jobs imaginable? I know i certainly do not. As for the white-is-pure and black-is-evil teachings you think us to have, i’ll have you know that most of my good church clothes consist of black. As it is, i am currently wearing a black jean skirt. the only white on me is my socks.
As for jewelery, it is not true that we do not wear any at all. I have a ring that i wear–not a wedding band, but a ring that a friend of mine gave me for my birthday. We wear watches, too. We do not wear necklaces because–deny it if you will–they draw attention to the breasts, whether you mean for them to or not. We do not have piercings because, as i said earlier, our body is the temple of Christ. Would you smash a hole in the side of a church? I know i wouldn’t.
As far as hair goes, i’ll be perfectly honest that i do not yet know every reason behind what we do, but i know it says in the Bible that a woman’s hair is her blessing and covering, and that angels reside on it when she submits herself to God. And the braiding? This is my own personal opinion, but i believe he was refering to braiding it with gold which, if i’m not mistaken, was not necessarily uncommon in those days. i am certain that he did not mean braiding as in simply twisting the pieces together. Also, the word “adorn” means “beautify”. So, in other words, it is better to do beautiful works than it is to beautify your body or hair. Besides, isn’t a woman who does beautiful works truly more beautiful than one who simply wears beautiful clothes? I find so. That’s the difference between beautiful and pretty, if you ask me. Which, i guess you technically didn’t… *shrugs* 🙂
I have never seen in any way us “misinterpreting” the Bible. We do not in any way change what the Bible says. In fact, we live very close to how God’s word commands. Does this make us slaves? No. Does doing what your parents ask/tell you to do slaves? No. It is simply building a stronger relationship with Him. Some scripture is necessary to interperet and not take the literal meaning, it is true. In this case, prayer and a further study leads to a better understanding and thus a personal interpretation granted by God. Never do we take the Word of God out of context. Some interpretations may differ from others, just like personal convictions of, say, televisions (which my pastor’s family has, but my youth leader’s family does not). As for music, it’s the same thing. My pastor’s family listens to some country music, watches television shows, reads non-Christian books. I do, too. I have actually never yet read a Christian novel and prefer action and thriller books with a twist of sci-fi or fantasy. where you got that, i do not know. Maybe some Pentecostals do as you say, but cetainly not all. Even if they do steer clear of this stuff, what’s wrong with it? Absolutely nothing, in my humble opinion. Why so harsly criticize something that isn’t a bad thing whether Pentecostal or not?
And about the medicine thing. I have no idea where you came up with that “fact”, since there are many, many, many Pentecostals that I know that take pain killers, get perscriptions and antibiotics, the flu shot, surgeries, radiation therapy, and any kind of medicines you can think of. God gives devine healing, yes; but even the woman with the issue of blood consulted many doctors who said they could do nothing for her before she recieved healing from Jesus. I have witnessed several miracles of cancer healings in my own home church, when the person was only supposed to have a few months to live. There has been a case of chromes (sp?) disease that was healed just a couple weeks ago. My dad recieved a healing a few years ago on a terrible burn he got on his arm from the woodstove. However, all of these cases were tended to by a doctor or physician.
And what’s this about us eating “plain food”? That one really confuses me. As Pentecostals, (i’ll admit it) my church and others all over my district rather enjoy food. We have times of fellowship after church often, when we go down stairs and eat. Not to say we’re greedy, gluttonous pigs; we just like food. Who doesn’t? After every youth event we attend, we go out to McDonalds or Burger King or Subway or etc. We joke about it all the time at church.
Women were created as the weaker vessle, it is true. However, there are many wonderful scenarios in the Bible that tell of women doing things for God. Take Ester, or Ruth, Mary and Martha, Jesus’ mother Mary! I could name more (provided i could remember their names off the top of my head 😉 There aren’t as many woman who take to the pulpit, that is true. But to say that there are none anywhere is not factual. I have heard many women pastors in my sixteen years, and they are just as blessed in their ministry as the men. Besides, typically it’s the men that are more comfortable speaking in front of people, preaching or not. And to say that it is because of Eve? were not Adam and Eve BOTH kicked out of the Garden of Eden? Were not they BOTH punished? If I sin and someone else that saw me sins too, am I to blame for his/her sin? You may think otherwise, but i do not believe so.
Again, just a reminder that i am not judging or condemning. That is not my place. I am merely stating my beliefs and viewpoint as a Pentecostal girl about your inaccurate portrayal of all Pentecostals.
I will admit, i have heard of extremists, one such required putting one’s very wedding bands in the offering. I do not agree with that as a requirement, nor any kind of “forced offering”. The word “offering” implies a willing sacrefice, not a forced giving. But that is their conviction. however, that’s besides the point. I have also heard of people not getting, say, the swine flu shot because they belive God will protect them. I completely understand that and believe He will protect them, too. He will not take anyone before their time. That does not mean that we have to do nothing to prevent illness or death. I know many people in my church that did get the shot, myself included, and my pastor never spoke for or against. He actually had a service kind of about it, just stating the facts and how the vaccine is available to those who choose to get it . I have no reason to panic about the flu, neither would i have if i hadn’t had the vaccine. I figure if i’m going to die, i’ll do it whether i’m vaccinated for swine flu or not. But since the vaccine is available and could help prevent me from getting the swine flu, why not? It certainly is not a sin to go to the doctor and take medicines, and i feel sorry for whoever told you otherwise.
I was actually very sad after reading your blog. Not completely because you do not believe in God, but because you do not understand Pentecost. I hope that my explanation has cleared some things up not only for you, but for anyone who reads it, too. Again, i am not judging you. I have no right spiritually or politically to do so.
And, just for clarification, i am a sixteen year old girl and have a mind for logic; ia lways have. I think things through all the time, even in completely random scenarios that pop up in my head. i’ve struggled, for sure: I have questioned God so many times, and nearely even gave up on believing a year ago. I never even told anyone about my struggle until afterwards. I found that the more i withdrew from him, the more my life had no reason, even at sixteen. I was empty and left longing for something more that i could hold on to, something i could trust. That something turned out to be something i’d had all along. He has shown Himself to me time and time again in this last year, through a song that i may have needed to hear, through the people of His church just coming over to say a few encouraging words in a difficult time of my walk with Him, or by a simply, gentle, loving and devine comfort around me when i feel lost and confused. I realized last year that He is always there looking out for me. Maybe someday, only if you’re willing to let Him, He will show you that He is still watching, waiting for you to accept Him. It’s not my job or responsibility (or ability, for that matter) to save you; it is merely my responsibility to spread the metaphorical seeds of the Word of the Lord, and it is up to the heart to decide whether or not it will grow there.
And, though I know you may not necessarily want it, God bless you.
Hello Sam Alan:
I am sure that some not-christ-like TPM lover has hacked your system. I doubt that he has mimicked you IP ID, computer name, and email ID in this blog. Very likely that he has hacked your email.
Please ensure that you clean up your system with a professional.
I appreciate the sincerity of your posts.
Thank you and Bye..
A friend.
Response to Bro. Bob’s post on December 22, 2009 at 8:43 pm
Sorry to say brother, but your response was rather funny.
I said, “When I speak with people from Pentecostal background I usually assume that they adhere to basic truths that are
commonly agreed upon. I do not expect them to overturn the foundation on which they are standing” which means any two
parties engaging in a mutual discussion or debate should hold on to the basic principle that [b]they both[/b] agree upon.
Not someone else agrees upon. This is a common debate discipline.
Hence when we discuss we both have to adhere to the basics that we both (TPM and other Pentecostals) agree upon. What other Pentecostals agree upon is not a matter of concern here. If TPM also had agreed upon those points then what is the need of a debate and what is the point of setting such a self destroying guideline?
Its interesting that your replies are increasingly showing a lack of comprehension of what I write and turning strawman. I wonder if its deliberate!
(By the way, why remain naive to the doctrinal differences between the non-TPM Pentecostals? And what is the supposedly agreed upon interpretation of 144K among other Pentecostals? Just for your thought, not to divert the main topic)
New Year Greetings to All. God’s grace and peace be with you all during this year as well.
I thank Bob and Sam Alan for their comments in this blog.
I had long suspected that some of the teachings in TPM could not be true, and this blog has affirmed this.
If Christianity represents the body of Christ:
1. There is no way one denomination can claim superiority over others saying its doctrines are “more perfect.”
2. There is no way one church can blame the other for being less stronger in faith (in regards to medicine).
3. There is no way one church can refuse Holy Communion to the members of other church.
4. There is no way one church can criticize the outward appearance of other church members (in regards to jewels, clothes, or their church building).
5. There is no way one church can criticize the administration of other churches (be it elections, etc.). I feel that promotion through open and frank election is better than promotion through underlying favoritism.
By doing all of the above, TPM is trying to build its own brand instead of Christ’s brand.
TPM, with many of its sincere believers, could do better by running some institutions/hospitals for sick or some schools for the future generation. As far as I know, almost all TPM believers have at least been once to a Roman Catholic-run, CSI-run, or Methodist-run hospital, school, or college.
I sincerely pray to God to open the eyes of all the TPM members. I believe that TPM will recognize its wrong doctrines and correct its course.
Thank you all.
Hi wish u all a happy a new blessed prosperous new year…let us all try to be meek..for the meek shall inherit the earth…halleluah..hats off to a wonderful noble soul like Jesus
kathy,
I read your blog with great intrest. Thanks.
Are you a member of the Universal Pentecostal
Church? Do you have a church in Brixton.
You write well for a sixteenyear old. Congratulations.
Sam.
Pentecostals in general hold that TPM at best is a fringe group and at worst a cult. Outliers are normally discarded when averages are observed.
Typical with cults that use the Bible to support its position is a host of interpretive errors. The following is what I observed with respect to the arguments put forward in defense of TPM’s erroneous doctrines.
• Taking verses out of their immediate context.
• Refusing to read verses in the entire biblical context.
• Inserting their theological presuppositions into the text.
• Altering the Biblical text to suit their needs.
• Latching onto one verse to interpret a host of others.
• Changing the meanings of words.
• Proclaiming some passages to be figurative when they
contradict their doctrines.
• Adding to the Word of God.
Taken from http://www.carm.org/is-the-jehovahs-witness-religion-christian
TRAITS OF PENTECOSTALISM
A)Total reliance upon the 1906 outpouring (Happened in Asusa Street)for translation power and the rapture:
In 1906, they took tongues and made it the initial evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is totally unscriptural. There is not one Scripture anywhere that said that “when you speak in tongues it is the evidence of the Holy Spirit.” When Jesus received the Holy Ghost he never spoke in tongues. Even demons and people of false religions speak in tongues. Added to this, people who received that 1906 outpouring afterwards lived vile, wicked and immoral. Hence an unjust person could receive that 1906 article, yet people rely on that article to go in the rapture regardless of these corrupt fruits that they manifest. Such people are not preparing their souls by purging out the world to receive the final outpouring of the Spirit for rapture power. Some totally deny such a promise and believe that all is over for the Bride
B)Manifestations of Satan exposing women’s nakedness under a satanic power termed “the baptism of the Holy Ghost.”
So-called Pentecostal women fall to the ground as they are slain under a power and pretense of receiving the Holy Ghost. Their clothes raise up and expose them, they are almost naked on the floor, and the workers have to run with sheets to cover them. It takes a nasty ghost to expose women like that, and cause them to fight to pull up their skirts. It is a disgrace and stumbling block to the unbelieving world….
C) Demon possession under the disguise of the Holy Ghost.
People are being demon possessed rather than receiving the Holy Ghost, evident by the satanic manifestations and immoral lives they lead afterward. Some howl and scream like animals, laugh uncontrollably, stamp their feet on others, swing their fists violently, go out of control, fall on others and behave disorderly in the church.
D) Sissified men that are women dominated. Dominating females handling the Word:
Pentecostalism has women, dominating females, handling the Word, claiming to be women of God. Writing magazines, have their own websites, preaching in the bedroom to their husbands. They come out on the pulpit and does their preaching. It produced a bunch of sissified men that cannot control their homes.
E)Hollywood evangelism with lying signs and wonders:
After Pentecostalism rejected God’s restored truth, God sent her strong delusions. She believed a lie and was damned by that lie. They were accompanied by lying signs and wonders, since the Holy Ghost departed from so-called Pentecost. Some laugh and cackle like a hen and make many funny animal sounds. Others say that the Holy Sprit makes them howl, roar and scream, compounded by many fake healings.
They try to evangelize the gospel in Hollywood style and a Bible-trained put-on voice. Some have women mopping away their perspiration with handkerchiefs while they preach. Some pretend to cry and act as though they are under the power of God when they are not.
F)Prayer
Pentecostalism chants and uses vain repetitions in prayer and worship, saying, over and over, “Praise God! Praise God! Hallelujah! Hallelujah!” They rattle in tongues without interpretations. Jesus said, use not vain repetitions. Paul said, if there is no interpreter, hold your peace.
Others command and challenged God in prayer. It is unscriptural, rude and disrespectful to God. It is in disobedience to the Lord’s prayer that teaches us reverence and humility in prayer.
Some went on long fasts, for as much as forty days, and a few died and others were treated for mental problems. There is no scripture that commands Christians to go on long fasts. They assumed it by reading about the long fasts of Moses, Jesus and others.
Many exercise fanatical faith: point to properties, vehicles, men, women etc., etc. and say, “I claim it in the name of Jesus Christ,” though articles are owned by others. The Lord said, “Though shall not covet.”
G)Fanaticism in songs and music:
Song leaders preach while leading songs. Worldly musicians, who are recently converted, with their old ambitions, are allowed to play music in the church and as a result, the sacred hymns are perverted with worldly beats. So-called spiritual women and other members raise songs and take the lead of songs away from the song leader while singing in the congregation.
H)Holy laughter and spiritual drunkeness revival:
Preachers and congregations experience so much joy of the Spirit, that they laugh for hours, jump and shout as the minister walks around laughing and blessing the people. They fall backwards in their seats and some pass out with laughter. Many roll on the floor. Thousands have experienced this revival. They act like drunk men, staggering, falling on each other, laughing and stammering. It is linked to Acts 2 when the Holy Ghost was outpoured.
The laughter revival is a satanic delusion and madness. People are laughing their way unto the tribulation and unto hell. It is totally unscriptural. None who received the Holy Ghost in the Old Testament nor the New Testament manifested in that manner.
I)Shameless begging for money:
Preachers became millionaires and billionaires without any shame. They beg without regard saying, ‘No coins please.’ They have donation lines for those with five, ten, twenty and one hundred dollar bills, respectively. More time is spent on money begging on the radio and television than telling the people about their sins and salvation. One preacher said, “To keep the devil away he needs jewelry, property, stocks and bond. God wants you to donate.”
J) Televisions into homes. Perverted the homes and lives of the people:
So-called Pentecostals who were once against cinema viewing, brought televisions into their homes and spent much time watching sexually immoral and other movies that they ought not to, even to the point of missing services (prayer meetings etc. were left out.)
Television became the transport service of all perversions upon the earth in Sodom and Gomorrah. Perversion of men, perversion of women, perversion of sex life, perversion of children, perversion of clothing, perversion of music. Everything that was perverted in this generation, television became the transport service to the rest of the world. The women began to take the pattern of the movie stars and changed their pattern of dressing, hairstyles, high heel shoes, paints, foundation powder etc.
And when I speak of television, the Internet must be included, because of the nasty sins and vices that are on the Internet. Christians should be against the Internet just as much as the television. Certain Christians spend as much time on those videos, and many of them look at blue movies.
K) Worldly clothes and styles for men:
Pentecostalism has accepted styles of the world for the men (though the Word forbids it): long hair, baggy shirts and pants, high heeled shoes, all the latest styles of Sodom and Gomorrah, pants hanging off their hips with underpants exposed, long jerseys that have become a woman’s dress.
Romans 12: 2
Preachers, their sons and the congregation are anointed by the same spirit of Sodom.
L)Perversion of sacred hymns and songs to worldly music:
Tunes to sacred hymns were change to Rock-n-roll, Jazz, Soul, Country and Western music and beats etc. to attract sinners’ attention for their salvation and to make up for the Holy Ghost which departed from their churches.
M)Working women, higher education:
People became worldly, ambitious and discontented. Women became career motivated, began using birth control to either have a career, bring in more money in the home or because they don’t want to lose their figure. They began to send their children out into higher education at the expense of their souls. The children had to change their dressing into the worldly school and work uniforms
*Immoral sexual practices: fornication, adultery, lesbianism, homosexuality, sodomy etc:
It is undeniable that many of the practices and vices of Sodom and Gomorrah have entered Pentecostalism. It started with one of its very founder being charged for sodomy with young males, shortly after 1906.
Modern preachers had homosexual affairs and paid out hundreds of thousands of dollars in private settlements to cover their nasty lives. Other great Pentecostal generals and writers were caught in sodomy with men. The measure taken by other compromising hypocritical preachers was that they continued to support such a preacher, and for the homosexual preacher to step down from the pulpit, for a short period of a few months, and seek counsel after which he resumed preaching.
Some promote same-sex or gay marriages (Actual blessing on gay’s and lesbian’s marriages performed; pictures are shown of men kissing men, mouth to mouth).
Several preachers were involved in sex scandals, were exposed for having affairs with several women in their congregations and even prostitutes. Some claimed to have repented, resumed preaching and repeated the same crimes. Some stepped down and were succeeded by others who ended up committing the same crimes.
* Rejection and perversion of the message of William Branham:
So-called Pentecost rejected the message of Bro.William Branham. Some took portions of it, perverted it and preach it as their own revelation, never telling their congregations the source from where it came; and on top of that, brand William Branham as a false prophet.
Will continue…..
Hello Kathy,
Thank you very much for writing such a detailed blog. Personally I appreciate the way you respond to accusations. A true child of God should never counter-attack anyone either physically or verbally. I pray to Jesus He reveals the truth about the TPM(Universal Pentecostal Church) to others who have bad opinions.
May God bless you child and make you ready for His is IMMINENT return!
Hello Everybody,
I was born and brought up in TPM denomination. In my teenage and early youth days I drifted away from God and got involved in so many sins. I even questioned the existence of God. But by the tears of so many servants of God in the church and of my parents, I am brought back out from the deadly fate of hell fire. I do not deserve to be in this great church. Only with tearful eyes can I remember how the saints of God be on knees without sleep and prays for our needs and for bringing back backsliders. They live like candles burning down every minute. I cannot thank my precious Jesus for giving me, such a sinner to be back in this great church.
Also, in the church, Jesus is given more significance than anyone else. And the leading is by Holy spirit and not by voting or human thoughts.
Just a word of TPM – CPM name change and issues:
I respect our sisters and brothers who were driven out of faith homes by ‘CPM’-clinging people. We have no rule to fight back. We have to fight to Devil and sin, not humans. I can never say enough of the great fellowship of God I enjoy.
If anyone thinks I am eulogizing TPM church, I do not insist on believing the opposite. But I request you to go in prayer and ask God about it. Definitely God will answer your prayers. You do not have to agree with someone since they say so. But you can cry to the Lord and ask Him to show you about this fact, I am sure He will reveal it to you.
One last point:I DO NOT deserve to be in this great church or to talk about it, but the pure mercy of God made me worthy for it. So please forgive me if anyone is offended by my lines. May God bless all of you. Let us all be prepared for the imminent return of Lord! There is no time at all!
Hi RachelChitra,
You had asked if these people include you in their morning prayers list. May be or may be not. But as a pentecostal believer, I can tell it is their mind or wish they wrote. If at all someone said it out of smugness, I would say it is very very wrong. No true Christian would feel hatred or bitterness towards you for your posts or opinions. Instead they will pray in their heart that you know the truth.
But let me tell you, God willing I will pray for you every morning (even though my daily prayer hours is very low which I want to correct). I will try not to forget your name in the morning prayer – because like everyone’s, your soul is precious! That should not be lost forever. The reason is that there were so many people who cried with tears in the presence of God for my salvation. So it is my duty to pray for others. You might think this as a foolish thought.
Dear sister, as a person (myself) who was deep down in the miry pit of sin and troubled life and later came back to my precious Father who loves more than anything in the world, I sincerely wish with all my heart that you experience the overflowing love of God. My wife and I are experiencing the love of Love of God every day.
May God bless you and keep you under His wings (even though you would not want this line)
I have some serious doubts about the authencity of the Holy Bible..Is that true that we (christians of all sort) dont have the original print of Bibleand all we have right now is a translated Latin Vulgate (a catholic latin bible)? I as a protestant has got only 66 books in my Bible whereas i recently met an Ethiopian who said his church (Ethiopian orthodox) church has got 81 books and is older than the catholic church..!.. what if there are some important truths hidden in their books(orthodox bible) as well?…any reply for this friends..?
Hi all,
i have a some fundamental doubts in christianity..Bible scholars pl help me out…We the Christians believe that the Bible is the basis of every pentecostal doctrines ja? how ever I`ve recently came to know that we dont have the true copy of the old authentic biblical books…for some books we dont even know who the author is (like job,ruth,judges etc.,) and there are some controversies in the bible about the numerical terms and names in both the new tesatment as well as the old old testament..what we have right now is just a translation of Latin vulgate (Bible of catholics) translated from latin to english under King James IV of England..?…Is this all true…?I recenlty met an Ethiopian who said his Bible (ethiopian orthodox church)has got 81 books! …wat the hell!…wy is that our Bible (KJV and NKJV)has got only 66 books…?wy did we loose so much holy books which might have so many good doctrines (rather than stupid preaching of TPMites about holiness, Zion and new Jerusalem?)..what if the Bible we have, might have been corrupted or wrongly translated from the true source?…some TRUE BIBLE SCHOLARS PL HELP ME OUT rather discussing on Celibacy, TPM, Quoleth..
I thank Ms.Rachel sincerely out of my heart for bringing out such a wonderful blogspot to discuss about a cancer in christianity known as the TPM..despite you bein an atheist you`ve opened many of our eyes to know where the present day christianity is leading to…i thank you for all of your endeavors..may this site open the blind eyes of thousands of innocent souls under the cruel claws of
tpm church and make them raise against the antisocial cult and destroy it once for all from the earth…thank you once again…hats off
Sam Alan,
Thank you for the compliment. I am actually hoping to be an author someday 🙂
Well, i am a member of the United Pentecostal Church. I do not know if Universal and United are the same or not. Also, i must admit i’m not too good at geography; may i ask where Brixton is? I immediately think “Brixton, Ontario” but i Googled that the other day and couldn’t find anything on it so i do not think i’m right.
Hi doubting thomas,I m a TPM beleiver @ trichy,i don’t know why u r misled to such a conclusion because as far as i know we don’t regard other denominations or other churches to be inferior i’m studying @ karunya university founded by Dr.DGS Dhinakaran,here i m activly involved in prayer cells and other spiritual activities.And another thing is that you are saying we are laying our brand and not God’s brand if so then we would have started some t.v channels a website to spread our brand abroad.Friend above this you are talking ill of the faith life led by the servants of God then are you undermining the doctrine of celibacy which our Jesus proclaimed.Above all the fellowship you find in the church is simply amazing it is all nothing without the grace of God shown to us the filthy rags.Sorry if i had hurt you but its the truth!!!!
Why do saints please only few ppl there esp.rich and a group surrounds them for …..Poor believers were never cared.They get no time for visiting by saints.
Any Gods word proof that medicine is sin or anti faith.TPM girls from Nagercoil are the dangerous girls to abuse and scolding and beating husbands.Only at Church they dont talk and pretend to be great saints and showingly no jewels..At home they are regreted by every husbands married them.
Do the TPM organisation obeying the laws of land to give auditing report for tax meant for societies about their income?
A saint brother who served there as a minister for 17 years now came out of TPM saying ” brother earlier I served Man and Now I serve Lord .”Let the Lords work grow manyfold.
Be a blessing
TPM churches open only where there are already christians and 95 % congregations from other xian denomination. When FMPB and BYM went on to preach gospel to unheard areas we TPM go only to safe areas where enough xians there.Doctrine differs with different saints.One saint says if you have TV no communion and other saint says you need to be TPM since marriage or baptised in TPM to have communion.A poor boy from Pune Samuel Sekhar told me that “TPM saints are kind people but TPM believers are unkind and never love fellow believers.”Can any body refute this?I myself saw how un caring these beleievers in Secunderabad.Just one bond Christ.No true love exixt with believers.If they greet it is only flattering.TPM believers are not having the joy of salvation that is why they cant bring joy in to other ppl life and salvation. Thier exitation is in worship time due to the joy of tune of song and music and not through heavenly anointing ..it seems….Forgive me if I am wrong.
Bro .shaji chacko baby on sep 22 psting wrote that TPM is better than other than many church.True.What I expect is they can improve thier soul winning among non xians rather than on only xians and remove the certain contrdictions posted in this nice blog.
Just like Mormons and Jehovah witness TPM has become a denominations and slowly losing its power of LOrd.CSI people are more Lord fearing and the women there respect their husband much than TPM woman who thrash their husband often.I myself know a TPM believer in Ramanad being thrashed nby wife often.Better visit stanleyonbible website to know whether you said correctly and accordingly to Lords word.Foremost thing is LOVE for LORD and LOVE for fellow human.These two basics are replaced by doctrines and thithes.Without taking thithe can any TPM faith home can run on faith,?
Brother Chacko can you tell me how many believers in TPM are Like mother Teresa and loving the HIV patients and serving them. You will not.!
Rachel,
Simply the universe will not exist by itself. Some poweer is performing behind it. A control that a human cannot scan.
My simple question? Please answer me.
First what came into exist? A Hen, or an Egg?
John
” I WILL NOT COUNT THE COST IN TERMS OF ZION, I’LL SERVE HIM ‘CAUSE I LOVE HIM” The late Bro. P.C Martin.
Two years ago, I heard a young woker testfy that he came into the TPM ministry, so that he could go to Zion.
TPM claim that only TPM workers, who have consecrated their all, and not defiled by women
(unmarried). If marriage is a defilement, then we can argue that Jesus attended a “defilement ceremony” in Cana of Gallie.
If TPM pastors who live a life of luxory, relatively speaking, what is their consecration? Guys who did not have a bicyle, now riding in air-conditioned cars. Having the best of food. Boys and girls brothers and sisters waiting, at their beck and call. Clothes washed and ironed, and massages at will. ( I was one of these who was like a servant boy in TPM Faith Homes) Is this the consecration that will be rewarded by giving them Zion? This kind of teaching is nothing but HOG WASH!
Matthew 20 02-24. Even though the disciples were williing to partake in the ultimate sacrifice, and suffer like Jesus did, Jesus says to sit on his right and left, is to be decided by the Father.
Sorry TPMites, who are blinded and brainwashed
by Alwinism, wake up and turn to the scriptures.
The letter killeth. Your literal interpretation of Revelation 14 1-4 is despicabe. It kills and destroys.
No wonder the road to Zion is strewn with carcases, of sincere men, slain by Alwinism.
No wonder Pastor Freddy Paul sid that Alwinism was from the PIT!! I agree with him.
I shall return to defend the truth which was delivered to the saints. I do not preach Alwinism to present every man perfect in Christ, but expose Alwin and Alwinism, with the hope of helping people to turn to the ‘simplicity of the Gospel’
ll
Hello Lionel:
Nice to hear from you. I am replying to your comments as follows:
“I m a TPM beleiver @ trichy”
I am a believer in Bangalore for the past 21 years, and I continue to attend.
“i don’t know why u r misled to such a conclusion because as far as i know we don’t regard other denominations or other churches to be inferior”
In this case, it seems your experience in this church and my experience differs vastly. I was never allowed to set foot to other churches during these days. Many pastors in TPM have preached that those who visit other churches will be accursed. It is being preached that those who accept Holy Communion in TPM should not partake in other churches. This is a classic example of “building a wall” and considering others inferior. There was an inter-denominational prayer meeting for lack of rain in Madurai some years back. Every denomination (RC, CSI, other pentecostals, etc.) were partakers in the meeting except TPM, which turned down the request. I would like to hear from you if you know of any TPM Apostles who visited other pentecostal churches or encouraged other pentecostal ministries in India.
“And another thing is that you are saying we are laying our brand and not God’s brand if so then we would have started some t.v channels a website to spread our brand abroad.”
Starting a TV channel or a website with a good intention of spreading God’s word is a good thing. There are many christian TV channels which have been a blessing to millions. In my observation, no pastors/Apostles in a TV channel indoctrinate others to only visit their church. I hope you understand that “Apostolic fellowship” is not a word reserved only for TPM.
“Friend above this you are talking ill of the faith life led by the servants of God then are you undermining the doctrine of celibacy which our Jesus proclaimed.”
If you have read my comment closely, you can observe that I did not talk ill of the faith life of TPM pastors. What I said is this: Faith on divine healing, jewels, etc., is very much subjective. You cannot impose your faith on others saying it is an objective truth. Doing so is equivalent to a false doctrine. (Please read the comments of ABAS, Churchmouse, Bob, Sam Alan, etc.) I do not want to elaborate further on this.
Friend, if you read this blog closely, you will understand that Jesus did not proclaim a “doctrine of celebacy.” This is a preconceived notion inducted into the TPM doctrine along with the other false doctrine regarding 144,000. Jesus proclaimed a “Doctrine of Love”. There is enough evidence in gospel to conclude that Jesus valued “Love” more other forms of legalisms, which also includes doctrine of celebacy. I hope you have read I Corinthians 13.
“Above all the fellowship you find in the church is simply amazing it is all nothing without the grace of God shown to us the filthy rags.”
I too enjoy the fellowship in this church. What I do not enjoy are the few external unbiblical doctrines, which sometimes leads to abuses. I have personally witnessed a few spiritual abuses, and more worse, sexual abuses, in this church. However, I continue to attend this church because there are many Apostles too in TPM when you discount the few wolfs in white clothing.
“Sorry if i had hurt you but its the truth!!!!”
I am not hurt, Lionel. I actually enjoyed replying to you!! Good Bye.
PLEASE NOTE: Of recent in this blog, there are many unfair comments about Christianity and many nasty comments against Pentecostalism. I strongly take exception of this. Those who do not understand Pentecostalism do not understand Holy Spirit. Those who find 66 books in Bible not enough will also find it difficult to accept Jesus as enough for them.
All you said is true and I am a believer in TPM .I heard evn principles of use of certain soaps ,No communion if u have not married thru TPM or baptismed in TPM etc.When british missionaries came and served in INdia in such a humbleness ..and followed by FMPB and BYM and many other who go where gospel un told ,,,TPM go where only where there already christians and pull them ….They dont go to NORTH INDIA where many tribals still live in poverty…..and gospels never told..We have not heard TPM translated any gospel portions in un lettered indigneous languages….Let TPM support other ministry too .It is FMPB which reached tribals in Maldho regions and not TPM .Let TPM support other gospel organisations.As a registered society as per the law TPM should declare auditing done by auditors as per law of the land.Will they do.?Never .When a soul is saved he gets the joy of salvation and goes out to tell everybody .Eg ,Sadhu Sundarsingh. He was unmarried remain till his death…..Such zeal of evangelism is not found in a TPM believers ..that is why every one knew TPM ppl are unkind ppl and have no love for lost souls….. Jesus did ministry for three and a half years and yet this followers who do ministry for some 20 to 30 years couldnot come any where near Jesus.The world asks for power and light.What TPM offers is a change of worship from other CSI AG RC denominations and nothing else .Our relationship with LORD is what matters.How many poor did TPM ppl supported and how many tribals were reached?Some where it resemble like Jehovah witness group and MORMONS etc Yet I attend TPM …..only and pathetic to see most of the pulpit snores and sleep peacefully during message time.
Hello Kathy,
May your dreams come true. We need good Christian journalists.
Brixton is in London England.
I guess you are in Canada?
God bless.
Sam
Hello Doubting Thomas
“Those who find 66 books in Bible not enough will also find it difficult to accept Jesus as enough for them”
hmmm.. I just want to know wat it s there in the other books as well..will u accept if your bible has only song of solomon and nothing else..ja?..if u know the answer reply r else better give it up rather than criticizing…
peace
by the way Jesus was good but not that good..he insulted a canaanite women relating her creed to a dog’s breed..he said he came to create strife and war in this world not peace..he did not show his other cheek to the merchants in the herod’s temple but rather took a whip and threw them out (an action hero!)..on his birth many innocent children were brutually killed..he called himself son of man not son of god..list goes on..
Praise The Lord.
All of us attend the International Convention at Chennai, Irumbuliyur .
Dedicated saints from all over the world come and preach the gospel that natural man cannot understand using all his wisdom and intellects.
All other ministries are run as business to maintain a good ledger balance.
We preach every man that we may present perfect in Jesus christ. We are extra ordinary people who inherit extra ordinary things from God unlike others.
Dedicated saints who forsake everything for the sake of God.
Attend the meetings and learn deeper truth from the Throne of God.
A church without spot or wringle.
Church : TPM
Date : 10-03-2010 to 14-03-2010.
Address:
Get down at station : Tambaram, Chennai.
Lanmark:
you can ask anyone around, they know very well.
Infact, you can see many believers around this area during these dates.
dear,
belivers in christ jesus
i was born and brought up in the pentecostal family and i have tasted the love of god completely, its bcos of the prayers of the saints of god who r pouring their lifes in the presence of god we are alive, the comming of the lord is very near so stop giving wrong comments on the doctines given by the precious saints bof god , we should understand that we are not that much worthy to gosip abt divine felloship 1 day will come than god will make u understand the truth,its realy a very great experince to be in divine healing waiting in the presence of god confessing our mistakes in that time it realy takes u very closer to god, one sister mentoned saying we r halleuiah gosthi we r proud to be mad for christ i think that sister is not willing to come to heaven bcos in heaven we will be singing praises to god all the time,a kind request to the who r spreading wrong comments on the tpm church pls do come and attend the international convention which is going to be held on 10th march to 14th march chennai irrumbliur come and be a part of it and recive the blessings of god
by paulline from choolaimedu
Ramesh
How dedicated are your Pastors?
Guys who never owned a bicyle now riding Air-conditioned cars, and living like Lords?
Dear Jack:
Your comments are irrelevant to the blog topic. You have accused others of misinterpreting the Bible, but you have also misinterpreted the Bible about the character of Jesus. It will take many pages in this blog to prove that you are wrong. So I am not going to answer your questions. Anyways, I am again correct in saying that if 66 books in Bible cannot convince you about the character of Jesus, 83 or 100 books cannot convince you. I wanted to post many links to prove my point, but this blog blocks it.
Understand Christ properly.
Regards.
Dear writer, your understanding of the tpm doctrines is very poor. I was one such guy who went against the doctrines of the church long ago., but God in His mercy (who had chosen me before the foundation of the world)changed my understanding and even though I walked according to my carnal desires, was drawn towards this church after a gap of 10-12 years, and now have strong foothold in the church. Hallelujah! God will do a marvellous recreating work in your life. You will become a testimony to the Lord! This is my prayer. God bless you.
Dear John Wesley,
Ignorance is bliss.
May the Lord open your eyes, of understanding.
God bless.
Sam.
Oops.. in my previous comment I forgot to add as per the current translation jesus was etc etc..Last week (around march 12 2010) National Geography channel displayed a spine tingling documentary about Gospel of Judas iscariot..that text is found to be authentic (coptic , around 70 AD)document as well.. It brought a truth that it was Judas Iscariot, who as a true disciple of lord Jesus christ helped him in his crucifixion and brought salvation to the entire man kind..If Judas was bad, Jesus would have never been crucified and mankind would have never got salvation through Jesus blood…He is not possessed with devil or lusted for money to betray jesus, he betrayed jesus as per Jesus’s orders and was taken to heaven thereafter (Suicide story of iscariot was fabricated later on)…hmmm..wat to believe and what not to believe? All I want is, is there some body in this blog who can explain me the authencity of the bible perhaps that would solve every conceptions about christianity, as every church has its own doctrine confilicting from others. If the base proof(Bible) is intepreted correctly i think the day where all the christians are uniform is not that far..is n’t that right? I once again thank Mr.Doutbing Thomas for his polite reply.
Hi Jack,
I’ve also been looking for very ‘resolute’ evidence by some authentic archeological discovery which could trace back everything in tact to at least one piece of Bible story/verse, but you know what, to my surprise there are many such evidences but there is always a point where connection between artifacts comprise those evidences requires our ‘belief’!
I went to this Dead Sea scroll exhibition and was enthralled as I was walking through, but as soon as I returned home there were unanswered questions about what I saw an hour ago! It’s just lack of belief!
But I always wondered about our systematic body with complex design, which could never have been evolved out of a BIG-BANG, that’s just my personal belief! I know I deviate from your question and also from this blog’s general point, but my reply to you is even if we find very authentic bible evidence, It will come down to our belief ! If we don’t believe, I think we would start seeking more evidences for those evidences !
Even cosmogony or evolution is not based a resolute evidence but beliefs and just theories, I am sure you might have googled a lot, I would recommend you to read a book authored by great great grandson of Darwin, it’s called “Creation”, It’s out there as a movie too, if you want to watch ! And i would recommend a book named mere Christianity by C.S Lewis (once atheist)
Thank you Mr.Phillip. Yep i do agree, end of the day all it matters is wat we believe. If we believe Bible is authentic no matter wat ,we hold on to our faith strong; but if we’ve started to doubt our faith even a small dispute can shake us thoroughly. It isn’t easy for me (or other young guys of chrisitian parents) to hold on to chrisitian faith strong amidst of science and technology. We trust wat we feel and see.we wonder on every inventions that man has made right from razor blade to robot and we expect the same in our religion too. We expect wat we believe should be the correct path of human life. Is that wrong..? I can’t stop grinning when i read in family prayer that universe was created just in seven days or earth was filled void and formless with water or the light was created before the sun, etc.., but at the same time i can’t stay calm when Dr.Zakir naik criticizes chrisitianity to the core in Islamic medias. I believe and adore Jesus who lead a simple life, gave an astounding concept of loving even the enemies and lived and died as he said. Even St.Mahavir,other tritankas, Lord Buddha, Prophet Mohammed, (PBUH), Ezra(shalom) couldn’t do this. Yes Jesus did. I couldn’t control my tears whenever i read even at the billionth time the story of Mother Teresa who was able to see Jesus in the worst stinking rotten worm eaten lepers . No science can make a woman to do this other than the purest love towards the creator! yep i do agree. But to face a billion population filled with atheists and other religious fanatics we deserve a uniform unblamable authentic proof on christianity. If the core concept is misintepreted and taught in each church differently no wonder we (chrisitian youth) astray. To put it under nutshell i conclude there is no wrong in today’s youth to argue against the pastors and superstitious christian fanatic parents and believers who incorporate useless rituals. It is not devilish or created by satan (the rationalistic thoughts) but the unconsious search of ourselves towards a truth which gave us life in womb and made us masters of the plant and animal kingdom. Till the truth(G-d) itself appears personally and explain us the purpose of religion we will keep disputing every useless words added by pastors and fanatics.Peace
Hi georgesraju
Tell me why it is said in Bible that woman is a weaker vessel? Cannot He strengthen her who strengthened Paul in his weakness?
-parasuram
DEAR TPM BROTHERS AND SISTERS I AM NOT AN AUSTERICAL TPM FOLLOWER..BUT A SIMPLE CHRISTIAN..WHO ONCE REALLY ADMIRED THE
DEDICATION AND DEVOTION THE TPM CHURCH HAD FOR CHRIST,.COS I SAW THE DISCIPLINE THAT THE CHURCH INCULCATED IN ITS FOLLOWER AND A FRIEND OF MINE..JOSHUA..
I REALLY USED TO ADMIRE DEEPLY THAT DEDICATION AND DEVOTION TOWARDS CHRIST..I HAVE REALLY LONGED TO CONVERT TO TPM TOO
BUT NOW…I HAVE A FEW QUESTIONS…TO THE TPM AND ITS TEACHINGS..FOR KIND INFORMATION..THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY PERSONAL GRUDGES OF MINE..
1.DOES THE TPM CHURCH ASK PEOPLE NOT TO LOVE THEIR NEIGHBOURS?
COS MY FRIEND JOSHUA..THOUGH WAS SUCH A GOOD BELEIVER, WAS VERY WEAK IN MAINTAINING RELATIONSHIPS AND STRONG IN BEFRIENDING PEOPLE AND HURTING THEM WITH CAUSTIC WORDS..THIS IS NOT ABOUT A SINGLE PERSON JOSHUA BUT ABOUT MANY TPM PEOPLE I HAVE MET…THEY DONT HAVE BASIC HUMAN VALUES LIKE POLITE WAYS OF TALKING,,THEY ARE AGGRESSIVE AND RUDE ,ARROGANT AND STUBBORN..AND MANY OF THEM GIVE IMPORTANCE AND PREFERENCE TO A PERSONS EDUCATION..APPEARANCE AND WEALTH..THAN LOOKING INTO HIS/HER CHARACTER AND SPIRITUALITY..THEY PREFER A PATHETIC LIFE BY PUTTING THEMSELVES INSIDE A SHELL ..I FEEL THEY LACK GODS LOVE IN THEIR HEART…ITS MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE AND TESTIMONIAL..BUT I DONT GENERALISE IT TO ALL THE TPM BELEIVERS ..I REQUEST THE TPM CHURCH TO THROW SOME LIGHT ON GODS SECOND COMMANDMENT TOO..”LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOUR AS YOU LOVE YOURSELF”NOT ONLY THE FIRST ONE..WHICH IS ABOUT LOVING THE LORD..FOR IT IS SAID OF ALL GOD’S COMMANDMENT THE MOST IMPORTANT IS LOVE..YOU CAN HAVE MANY GIFTS..BUT IF U DONT HAVE GODS LOVE IN UR HEART ..ITS REALLY NOT WORTH..I REALLY ADMIRE THE TPM..FOR ITS EVERYTHING EXCEPT THESE FEW THINGS
I REQUEST THE TPM CHURCH TO TRY TEACHING ITS FOLLOWERS BASIC HUMANITY AND HUMAN VALUES FIRST…
AND TO EDUCATE..MANY PATHETIC BELEIVERS LIKE JOSHUA..THAT HURTING A PERSON IS ALSO A SIN..ATLEAST THEY SHOULD TRY TO FEEL SORRY FOR IT AND REALIZE IT..ALTHOUGH MANY ARE STRONG SO CALLED TPM BELEIVERS THEY DONT BASICALLY RESPECT THE HUMANFEELINGS..AND ARE SO INSENSITIVE
AND SOME OF THE BELEIVERS LIKE JOSHUA TAKE PRIDE IN BEFRIENDING PEOPLE FOR THEIR EGO SAKE AND GIVING LAME EXCUSES THAT THEY DONT CARE FOR ANYONE EXCEPT GOD..THIS IS THE ATTITUDE OF MANY TPM BELEIVERS TODAY..HOWEVER THESE SO CALLED RELIGIOUS PEOPLE ARE SELFCENTERED,SELFISH AND EGOISTIC AND FAIL TO UNDERSTAND THE ABBREVIATION OF EGO WHICH MEANS EDGING GOD OUT..THEY ULTIMATELY EDGE GOD OUT OF THEIR LIVES..AND MANY OF THEM..ESPECIALLY THE TPM MALES ARE EXCELLENT MALE CHAUVENISTS..GOOD AT DOMINATING THE FEMALES ,BLAMING THEM FOR NO REASON AND CONSIDERING THEM A SOURCE OF DECEPTION..THE TPMCHURCH IS VERY GOOD ABOUT SPREADING FALSE TEACHINGS ABOUT WOMEN..I REQUEST THE CHURCH TO MODIFY THIS AND TEACH THEM HOW TO RESPECT WOMEN..THIS IS TO BOTH THE TPM MEN AND WOMEN ..
PLEASE RESPECT WOMEN ..IF U HAVE SOME BASIC VALUES AND TEACH THE FOLLOWERS ALSO TO DO SO..I DONT WANT SUCH A GOOD CHURCH TO LOSE ITS VALUES LIKE THIS
Being in CPM is a phase in Christian life. Every denomination has its ideas about Christianity. I attend CPM service whenever possible. There is no CPM service where I live. Some of their Pastors provide greater insight into scripture. Their faith and and their simplicity are second to none. I love to attend their prayer meetings. I listen to their songs every morning before leaving for work. God’s presence is there in their service. However, the complicated doctrines of Zion, no medicine, Holy Communion and Baptism are not needed to obtain salvation. Salvation is by Grace. Jesus taught a simple message – a change of heart- Father forgive them for they not what they do- love your neighbour as thyself – sermon on the mount. The last judgement scene described in Matt 25: 31-46 sums up almost what Jesus wants us to do. Of course Jesus asked us to remember HIM in Holy Communion and be baptised. These two are rituals which many people follow easily rather than the requirement taught in Sermon on the mount or eleswhere pertaining to the heart.
Please read TPM for CPM
Dear blogger,
Every one have their own freedom to choose their life,
you choose yours
let them choose theirs
why should we interpret and hurt feelings beliefs of others
after world is small, and our life is short
why should you waste your time after unwanted time wasting issues
wish your valuable time elsewhere fruitful for yourself ,your family & if you crazy to help out others do it
okay
May GOD mould you as per your good wish & virtue
Noah Ben
Hi i just came across this blog. I found it interesting.
Well i am a TPM member for the past 18 to 19 years. If i turn back and see my spiritual experiences which i had 18 years ago and now, there is a vast growth in faith on God, my outlook on the world, my purpose of life, my character.
Yes i don’t watch TV, i don’t drink or smoke, read newspaper, wear costly dress, i don’t take medicine, i pray for others more than for myself, i don’t listen to movie songs, in the parties that i cannot avoid missing, i don’t join the dance session…
So many would tell me brain washed to the core case. I am not offended by it. My view is those who are not like me and are ‘normal’ have also been brainwashed to the core. That’s why they are not like me.
Growth in any thing doesnot come automatically. It comes through a process. First we have information then we have a choice to accept it or reject it, if we accept it, we practice it and we have growth.
This principle is found right for me as well for every one.
For the past 18 years i have practiced this principle. Many things i rejected. Many things i have accepted.
These are all matters of faith. Matters of faith comes with experience. So these are not meant to be laughed at or joked about. A person with less experience might do that.
These are last days. The enemy is working mightyly in the Church as they are the only group out of his control. God wants us to stand for Him and shine in the church and in the world like Daniel, Joseph, Job etc.
Those who criticize let them. Giving them reply is not enough. In fact that is of not much use. Praying for them is the answer. But who can pray? A person who is weak has to pray for himself. Only people who are strong and doing overcoming life can pray for others. The number of such are very very few.
!
hello brother & sisters
i will be going to nigeria and ghana. can i have the TPM fellow ship tel contact no and name.
nelson
I went through the blog, and its spread with lots of individual’s view. I can summarize, that people go by observation, since this is what every society asks to do. This blog is filled with world’s number one Pentecostal denomination – TPM. I strongly believe, this community started with humble way like Mother Teresa (feeding the poor, caring the disease, etc. by Pastor Paul). He being the model, not all became Pastor Paul. Everyone keeps a model in this world, and it does not mean, they will become like that model. Of course, it would inspire them, when they are drifted from their vision/ mission.
I think TPM teaches to have Jesus Christ as a role model and everyone approach him. Earlier pastor’s lives are quoted as eye-witnesses for us to believe, since we are in flesh that is weak and burdened with cares of this world.
To me, Christian life is personal relation with God. Do what God directs. TPM is profound in doctrines, and they give the deeper truths. The choice lies with us, whether to go for it or not. And whatever the TPM teaches is no wrong. Nothing gonna happen if you follow what they teach. You are not going to become wicked. Rather, TPM teaches you how to be strict in controlling your spirit to God’s Spirit.
I heard people writing TPM does not teach us to become like Mother Teresa. This is wrong. Have you heard about Elijah the prophet in Bible, how he was running for life, and he cried to God, am I the only one to live like this. For which God said, Nay, I have hid many saints like Elijah. Similarly, what man sees is miniature. TPM believers do great things praying, helping, feeding, etc. It’s done in such a way, where the believer who does is not advertised to the core.
Like manner, I saw someone writing about unkind TPM folks. True, TPM teaches to be soft hearted, humble, and it is the choice of people/ believers to accept and run such life. I agree TPM believers are losing their strength, but that does not mean the whole TPM is getting weaker. The devil is in its high pitch to pull everyone who lives for Christ down. If one falls, two rises. Remember the prophecy of God, which says, when the Son of man (Jesus) comes to gather his people, will he find faith in this earth. These are last days, and everyone (all denominations) is equipping to strengthen their faith and live a moral, worthy life accepted by God, for the redemption of their bodies.
And I saw another write-up that stated adornments, medicines, etc is not essential doctrines to go to heaven. The bases of these doctrines are to be humble, simple and depending on Christ and His power to operate in human.
Those who criticize let them do. Giving them reply is not enough. In fact that is of not much use. Praying for them is the answer. But who can pray? A person who is weak has to pray for himself. Only people who are strong and doing overcoming life can pray for others. The numbers of such are very few.
Dear Benjamin,
Could you please let me know some of the “deeper truths ”
TPM has.
You have Alwinism. One man.s personal revelations, which his successor, Pastor Freddy Paul, aptly called from the pit .
The truth shall set you free.
Sam.
I am an editor for Christian.com which is a social network dedicated to the christian community. As I look through your web site I feel a collaboration is at hand. I would be inclined to acknowledge your website offering it to our users as I’m sure our Pentecostal audience would benefit from what your site has to offer. I look forward to your thoughts or questions regarding the matter.
Vicky Silvers
vicky.silvers@gmail.com
vickey
Great idea. Go ahead.
God bless.
Sam
Sam Alan wants to know what is ‘deeper truths’, and what deeper truths TPM has. Everybody knows what is the meaning of deeper truths, or simply truth. Truth simply means opposite of False.
The basic truth the religion teaches is love God truly and love your neighbor. Besides these, there are no other truths.
Whatever else the Bible teaches are admonishes, principles, guidance to inherit the promise land, which it calls as heaven.
I do not know if you have any other definition of truth.
Wikipedia says, Truth involves both the quality of “faithfulness, fidelity, loyalty, sincerity, veracity”, and that of “agreement with fact or reality”.
Whether it is Alwanism or Samism or Benjaminism doesn’t matter. What matters here is Bible. Read the Bible, and know the Bible. Read about Jesus, and know about Jesus. The more you be with Jesus, the more you will know about Jesus.
This I think to my view is simple practice. Practice makes a man perfect. The more you concentrate on a person, the more you know about a person. Let that person be Jesus.
TPM to me that I have heard and also seen with close sight and far sight is a group of people who are living for Christ. Their sayings/ preaching is not contradicting when viewed it in appropriate angles. Even their celibacy is fine, no harm. I think, its all about mindset. If people perceive things correctly, they can see things correctly. After all, I personally feel, that the coming of God or the doomsday is nearing biblically and also scientifically. So instead of pulling legs, it will be better to look to Jesus and ask Jesus the guidance for the confused state. For God is not the God of confusion. Like TPM there are many other groups who are stern and faithful to God. God sees the heart, and its inclination.
Dear Benjamin,
Yes I agree with you. What matters is what the Bible says.
It is the spin that you (TPM) put on what the Bible says, causes all the problem.
Alwin was Excommunicated for the sins he committed, while preaching to the ignorant his perverted like sinless perfection, Zion, doctrines which were falsely called ‘Deeper Doctrines.’ The Engineer, driver is gone, but the train is running an the same tracks!!
Ben, you were never close to TPM like I have been. I was even Alwin’s Valet and personal masseur. I knew what went on ‘behind the front lines. I hope you guys practice love. Get the thousands who come to your conventions to clean up the neighborhood.
Build some health clinics. Build some washrooms for the poor. You guys have the resources. Many will be brought
into the kingdom of God. Actions speak louder than words words.
” You have done it to me , in that you did it for the least of my brothers, and sisters.
God bless.
Sam
Let’s look at it another way. When we are in school we know less. When we are in college we know more than school. When we do a Masters we know more than college. When we do M Phil we know more than Masters. When we do PhD we know more than M Phil. The message is to know more we have to spend more, study more, spend more time etc. Now compare the teachings of other churches with TPM’s teachings. It teaches new interpretations of the Bible (called revelations from God) which are more sacrificial. A student of school level is going to say, hey, that’s not needed. But a student of PhD is going to say i am enjoying what i am learning. It all depends on the level we are in. Even inside TPM such levels are there among workers and believers. Their glory in eternity is going to differ accordingly. As we go close to God (we go close through grace, prayer, grace, revelation, living the revelation ie., narrow way, more grace, more revelation, more narrow way) the world would lose its appeal because we become more valuable than the things in the world…as we become valuable we become hidden…just as any precious stone or metal is not available openly but is hidden…Christ is coming not for cheap things but for His precious jewels (which are hidden).
TPM tag is nothing but fellowship. It is like a garden or a school. This garden / school is kept by God himself. God is there in all fellowship. According to the level we please Him & according to His predestination, he would lead us to the appropriate fellowship. We are moulded in the garden / school. The standard of ministers of different fellowship would differ according to the level just as for being a school teacher just B Ed is enough but to teach a PhD student the teacher has to be more than a PhD.
I also believe if we really hunger for God, and even if we are in school level fellowship, God would give us choice to go to the next level of fellowship & if we have the grace, we would move to the next level. I am yet to come across a fellowship higer than TPM. I consider them Phd level. Perhaps if i please God more he might lead me to another higher fellowship, and if he does i would move on.
I agree that many TPMites are going to be disappointed on the D day. Forget the others, why even I am afraid whether i would hear the sound of the trumpet. Now the door of grace is open & Jesus is standing before the father interceeding for my mistakes. If I don’t use the grace period to grow upto the fullness of the stature of Christ, i believe I would be left behind…so my mistakes stand out before me and speaks to me louder than other’s mistakes. So i run this spiritual race (which has eternal consequences) with lot of fear and consciousness) and not by finding fault of others.
Ms. Chitra, u are not the first person to speak ill about God. Many have done it in the past. After a few (or many) decades u and I would be dead and gone. But God will still reign. But ofcourse, there will be more people born to speak ill about God. Yet God will be God and love His people & people will be people takling bad about Him. He is used to it. Belive it or not He is used to it……….
This is very bad to point out Pastors or Brothers or Sisters who have consecrated thier entire life to serve God and being one man standing between the gap of sinners and Jesus.As they are in the flesh they may have some weaknesses and some times even some of the saints may fall because of the tricks of satan.As they are serving the sinners like us,our iniquities are falling over them and they are becoming prey from satan and they are falling.
This site is highlighting all the mistakes of the saints of God.Whoever it may be before they point out the mistakes of saints first they have to monitor themself whether they are 100% perfect or not and then they have topoint out others.Bible Says —>Do not judge others atlast you will be judged.What i felt after going trough this blog is this site is way to bring doubts and bad opinion on God as well as the servents of God of TPM.
Whoever it may be they have to be careful before they post a comment in this blog regarding mistakes or fall of the saints of God if not God will definetly punish you with out any measure.
May God forgive all the people who have posted bad things over the saints of God of TPM.
Usha.
Praise the Lord!
I thank each one of you for your valuable opinions regarding TPM doctorin and TPM saints.
But this site is mainly highlighting antiTPM people who are working against its principles and truths and it creating a bad impression on TPM.
OK if any of you are trying to point out the saints and their mistakes first you have look for yourselves whether you are perfect or not.And if have guts then step out like the saints of TPM and take step for God to do ministry for God and prove yourself.
Please avoid critisism.
Sam is still beating around the bush. What Stephen states is exactly what I meant. TPM is a fellowship, a school-like. And what Manny stated is also exactly true – “you know that it hated Me before it hated you John 15:18-21”.
Grow in the knowledge of Bible or Jesus. TPM guides us and gives the light of the truth. The individual or the student who are bright will shine, and those who are dull, will try to throw negative darts.
Being a personal masseur or a chauffer of some VIP does not allow a free pass to heaven. What is required is conviction and openness to God. A transparent life to God!
True, this Spinnin Yarn speaks about TPM and its woes. I keep my finger cross, since I have not come to judge people or group or school here, rather I compare what they say and Bible reveals. And, it is acceptable universally. There are many like Tom, Dick, and Harry who have eloped from TPM School, and few have taken a good decision of being with Christ, and many have fallen. Beware; the Satan tries to deceive the very elect. The time is not short to those who are reading this still. Repent and draw closer before it becomes short. And the time is NOW!
I do not believe the elect will be deceived for three reasons.
1. They are true believers and followers of Christ, and not the followers of people or the ways of the world.
2. They follower the example found in Acts 17:11.
3. They know and understand the mystery of the gospel which was kept secret, (even kept secret from Satan), from the foundation of the world, until it was revealed to the Apostle Paul (and many now).
People are deceived because they DO NOT KNOW the mystery. Satan does not want people to know the mystery. And, false teachers will not share the mystery.
I am amazed and touched by the below statement given by Stephen:
“…my mistakes stand out before me and speaks to me louder than other’s mistakes. So i run this spiritual race (which has eternal consequences) with lot of fear and consciousness) and not by finding fault of others”.
How true it is!
Hello fellow people one who talk about TPM.
Let me ask you one thing who re you to predict people one who Believe in TPM Or GOD Jesus,
Let they their job, everybody has A Judgment day, Think you are perfect???????? Then Talk about others.
If you smoke Or drink, then how you going to stop your children???? So you have stop Smoking and Drinking then you give Advice to your children.
Finally what I am trying to say to you all
Try to Believe GOD Jesus and Do your right things you are not anybody to justify anybody, its God’s Job Live it DO right things for Your future
GOOD luck God bless you all Have Nice day
The SPEAKING IN TONGUES & the HOLY GHOST!!
By movid
There is a group of Christians, negatively virulent & mostly masochistic, who go by the nomenclature in India as PENTECOSTAL. There are many Churches which have shown affiliation to this form of Christianity.
The flow of their Spirituality is stuck in, 1 John 1:8 “If we say, We have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” and the next is from Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God..”.
There are passages from the Bible which are culled out and strung together to cogently forward their theories, which are not only patently false but add a sense of superiority to their followers. The “MANAGEMENT” of these Churches do not follow the teachings of Christ but THEY PROMOTE THE TEACHINGS OF PAUL @ SAUL of Tarsus.
Paul was a great apostle, but surely he did not come from above to take away the sin of mankind. He was a great “organizer” and a “writer of epistles” , but these talents DO NOT EXHAUST THE TIMELESSLY APPLICABLE MEANINGS of the utterances of Jesus Christ. The Pentecostals believe that Paul was the last interpreter of the WORD of Christ. Consequently they are stuck in the time warp!!
By the very TRUST that we have laid on Christ we have realized, repented and attempted to reform through His Grace. So there is no need to harp on the fact that “we are sinners” all the time- probably till kingdom come! The Pentecostals firstly make you “GUILTY” with these passages from the Bible and then they lead you to their “IMMERSION BAPTISM” with their theory that “repentance” was the prequel to baptism and therefore only an adult could consciously make such a “repentant statement” before God and therefore that person has to be an adult. Christianity has moved beyond such puerile statements. In that case we may have to be circumcised, go to Jordan or get a person to say in Aramaic/Hebrew/Yiddish before we get baptized. They have probably not read the following passage in ACTS chapter 8:-
34The eunuch asked Philip, “Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?” 35Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus. 36As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. Why shouldn’t I be baptized?”[f] 38And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him.
Here the eunuch did not repent, had hardly known the concept of Christ for more than a few minutes, yet Philip- one of the direct disciples of Christ in flesh, had baptized him! Therefore “ADULT REPENTANCE & ADULT ACCEPTANCE OF CHRIST” is not a precondition to a person being Baptized. Let us look at it this way- there was no such precedent of “healing” in the Bible/ The Torah that when a person touches the garment of a person he/she could get healed, yet when that woman with an issue of blood for 18 years did touch the hem of the garment of Christ, she was cured. It was that FAITH and any act based on such FAITH which God honoured. So to demean infant baptism, on such unfounded Christian theological grounds is nothing but a fallacy promoted by the Pentecostals to find newer ways to bring about “Sanskritization” of Christianity .
Then the next question that one gets asked when one talks to those Pentecostals is “ARE YOU FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT?” If you happen to be Christian who had had INFANT BAPTISM and a lil docile you are more apt to say that you are NOT, then they launch on the pre-recorded message that is instilled into them that IF YOU DO NOT SPEAK IN TONGUES, THEN YOU DO NOT HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT! I wonder why the Pentecostals not only do NOT read the Bible but also when they read the DO NOT UNDERSTAND it?
Have they not read the portion in the Gospel of John chapter 20 :22 wherein Jesus tells His disciples :-
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Yet they are led by the false doctrine that His disciples received the GIFT of the Holy GHOST only on the day of Pentecost. How fallacious and hilarious. JESUS NEVER DEFERRED ANYTHING. When he BREATHED the disciples RECEIVED. In the 4th chapter of the Gospel of John again one can see that when Jesus SPOKE a WORD, it was done the same second!!:-
46So Jesus came again into Cana of Galilee, where he made the water wine. And there was a certain nobleman, whose son was sick at Capernaum.
47When he heard that Jesus was come out of Judaea into Galilee, he went unto him, and besought him that he would come down, and heal his son: for he was at the point of death.
48Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.
49The nobleman saith unto him, Sir, come down ere my child die.
50Jesus saith unto him, Go thy way; thy son liveth. And the man believed the word that Jesus had spoken unto him, and he went his way.
51And as he was now going down, his servants met him, and told him, saying, Thy son liveth.
52Then enquired he of them the hour when he began to amend. And they said unto him, Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left him.
53So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.
54This is again the second miracle that Jesus did, when he was come out of Judaea into Galilee.
For the sake of emphasis let me repeat the relevant verse 52: So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth:
JESUS was the WORD in FLESH and there was NO DELAY IN WHATEVER HE SAID UNLESS otherwise He said about the future specifically, and i have no reason to believe that when Jesus BREATHED His spirit on to His disciples they did not receive it.
The point is there is nothing in any Gospel to suggest that the disciples spoke in Tongues at that point of time ! The Pentecostals clearly ignore this saying of Christ, as they cannot otherwise sustain their lie that SPEAKING IN TONGUES is the ONLY SIGN of having received the gift of the HOLY GHOST. The scientific community has given a nice name for speaking in tongues called GLOSSOLALIA, and if one wants to read more one may follow the link below!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossolalia#Linguistics_of_Pentecostal_glossolalia
I do not want to take a call on that on the scientific lines of the sceptical. I believe that talking in Tongues is a GIFT of God and should be used by Christians , if they have the gift, for their own edification and/or for the edification of their brother Christians but NOT AS A BENCHMARK FOR HOLY GHOST.
The third point is HOW DO THESE PENTECOSTALS CREATE A RECURRING FLOW OF REVENUE?
The answer is that promote MALACHI 3 :10 above the Principles of tithing that Jehovah had commanded through Moses at Deuteronomy 26
12 When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase the third year, which is the year of tithing, and hast given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates, and be filled;
13 Then thou shalt say before the LORD thy God, I have brought away the hallowed things out of mine house, and also have given them unto the Levite, and unto the stranger, to the fatherless, and to the widow, according to all thy commandments which thou hast commanded me: I have not transgressed thy commandments, neither have I forgotten them.
14 I have not eaten thereof in my mourning, neither have I taken away ought thereof for any unclean use, nor given ought thereof for the dead: but I have hearkened to the voice of the LORD my God, and have done according to all that thou hast commanded me.
and ensure that 10% of all revenues are skimmed out by the Pentecostal for their future capital!! Jesus did not want your tithes at the cost of your good action. Please recall that parable wherein Jesus told about the father who told both his sons to go to the field and work and how the one who said Yes and didn’t, but how the other said NO but eventually DID!! Jesus wants action, if you can. But if you can’t, ask for his Grace, but as Milton said , THEY ALSO SERVE, WHO ONLY STAND AND WAIT.
MATTHEW 21:31 “Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.”
I HAVE A FEW WORDS OF UNSOLICITED ADVICE TO MY PENTECOSTAL BRETHREN, PLEASE REPENT AND START READING THE BIBLE WITH AN OPEN MIND AND A LOT OF BELIEF.
JESUS DID NOT COME TO BUILD INSTITUTIONS, BUT TO BRING ENLIGHTENMENT TO THE INDIVIDUAL. BEWARE THE FALSE PROPHETS WHO BUILD THEIR ASSETS IN THE NAME OF TRUSTS AND MAKE THEIR RELATIVES AND YES-MEN THE TRUSTEES. JESUS IS NOT GOING TO BE PLEASED.
DO GOOD AND NEVER EVER DELEGATE DOING GOOD TO SOMEONE ELSE- ESPECIALLY THROUGH YOUR TITHES.
Rachel you have done complete injustice to the subject. Like mere mortals you engaged in the peripheries. I have been a member of this church for many years (not any more). To me its a very tight system; on the care giving front I would them right on top.
So why did I leave? To put myself into discomfort and make myself vulnerable perhaps. I wanted to know and understand new things. I somehow got this comfortable and secure feeling in TPM, the feeling that you get while on Barbiturates.
Eversince I have applied my mind on The Word and I realize its best to leave this system alone, for it offers very little for engagement and dialogue. The TPM system cannot handle dissent or criticism, hence best not spoken about.
Well I can say the same of most of the Pentecostal churches particularly in Chennai.
Hi all…..
This blog is owned by an atheist and probably the postings/replies should be either favour or against to it…..But it seems a blog which is used to blame TPM doctrines…..The very sad thing is that most of the peoples here are christians especially pentecostals(i guess)…Its better for them to be an atheist rather than a christian….I humbly request the TPM belivers who are not deeply aware of the Doctrines and teachings to not to post doctrines wrongly so that others get confused and misunderstand the Doctrines…..
….if u find a mango tree full of gud mangoes beside a road,peoples passing the road will throw stones to it…..similarly…TPM;one of the big pentecostal denomonation facing such stones towards their doctrines and teachings….well…..!!!!!….this is the way which we have to go heaven…By these experinces the church will be more glorious and shine before others…
Hi Guys,
I can Understand how much TPM and its saints have impacted your lives with their good deeds and consecrated life that you just cant stop talking about them, each time you mention about their names or talk ill they have been blessed each time and you lost something in your life. i think all you guys have to sit and think about your own faults and the flaws that your families make and make sure to look after your loved ones so that they don’t cheat on you or think that you have no time for them apart from talking ill about others and blaspheming against God. Now stop arguing who is right and who is wrong and carry on with your life and do something useful. May God bless all you guys and the ones who do not wish God’s blessings let the devil kiss you.
With Regrets
Eddie
Finally I am out of TPM. And the reason, I did not offer the tithes for last two months and they internally had planned to ex-communicate me. Nothing was officially declared and still I am not officially ex-communicated. It is just their tactics to frighten me, so that I pay money.
The fact was that I had not received my salary for last two months and obviously I cannot offer any tithes. How can I offer tithes without receiving any salary ??
One of the so-called-servant-of-God who was the in-charge earlier, called me on my mobile and said they (Centre Pastor and Local Faithhome People) are planning to ex-communicate me for having lot of complaints against and since having not paid the tithes for last two months, I will not be allowed to testify, I will not be allowed to interpret (I was an interpreter for the sunday sermons from Hindi to English, English to Hindi, Hindi to Malayalam, Tamil to Hindi and Tamil to Malayalam), will not be given Communion etc. (I have the recording of this entire communication on my mobile)
I could not bear the pain that these workers just do the ministry for money. Money stopped, even a silly complaint is a big crime. If you pay money and even if you do all sins mentioned in Bible, everything is covered…They use the word FORGIVENESS…..
If money dont reach them, the word used is DISCIPLINE
I got so angry and furious that I called the local brother-in-charge and asked to give all the money and things back which I had offered till now, which I accept I should’nt had.
But do you know what was his reply?? “Do you have any receipt of the money you paid??”” I have the recording of this too on my mobile if anyone wants to hear, but it is in Malayalam, English and Hindi Languages combined.
It is another fact that there are some issues with my credibility, but none of those complaints were effective till I was offering tithes. And that too an amount of average Rs 8000-10000 per month, which is not a small amount in India.
MY HONEST CONFESSION:- I HAVE DONE NOTHING TO GET SUCH A HUMILIATION FROM THE CHURCH WHOM I LOVED SO DEARLY. MY EYES ARE FULL WHILE WRITING THIS LINE.
I would like to know if there is a way out to stop TPM getting infiltrated with such practises on a greater scale…
Its strange to see that there is no posts from 25th June onwards…
All dead??
I have come accross this site quite accidently. And having read most of the remarks about TPM on this site. I agree, since I have heard and seen most of these things for the past 10 years. I fully agree with SAM Alan’s June 8 2010 about TPM. Actually TPM’s TEACHINGS are man made teachings to lead holy life. Which can ONLY be termed as following a RELIGION. JESUS never came to start a new RELIGION on this earth. All religions on this earth are man made rules and laws, which only bind people to follow it out of fear of going to hell. Jesus gave us THE HOLY SPIRIT to obey and follow HIM in LOVE, willingly and not out of fear of going to hell, because where THE SPIRIT of GOD is there is liberty (2Cor 3:17)
Ya true, CPM has gone to DOG’s now,
In Sri lanka, lot of true pentecostal brothers sent home for no reason on the ground of in obedience,
do you guys know what happend to Bro.Alfred who served at moratuwa,
but i know how many Brothers who are not even transfered and still at the head quarters (Rajan who knows he might be a pastor now)
but true people like Pastor Stanly are sent to some un known jugle forever
I think Joy fitch is scared…
I wonder why the government charge taxes from this kind of people, who live luxuary life
Hi Everybody,
I am a TPM church goer since 26 years. As a family we are affiliated to TPM. I have been a staunch believer in the TPM doctrines. However, I would like to cite some incidents which has made me believe that TPM as of Today has undergone much of corruption, than what was earlier. I have to say that the TPM believers are taken for a ride by a Section (not all) of workers. Either they themselves are decieved, or they are decieving others.
1. My Brother used to go to a TPM Faithome in Bangalore. One Sunday sermon by Pastor Ramesh mentioned that, “Believers who have not attended the area meeting are disqualified from attending the Lord’s supper”. Therefore, my Brother and Family was not able to partake in the Lord’s supper. This Pastor has no idea, what is the life of an IT professional. I really dont know why such people hijack the Lord’s table.
2. I happened to visit the New Delhi Paschim Vihar Faith home. I was offered lunch with another believer (who also happened to visit the Faith home). In the Same table, he was offered Fish and meat, whereas I was served Sambar, Rasam and Thoran. I dont know why they had to do this to me.
3. Happened to Visit a Thiruvalla Center local last week. The elder there made all the youth to stand up and remain standing because they did not wear white pants. Ironically, they all wore white shirts.
4. The same faith home People who did not come to the sunday service within 10 minutes of the start of the service was not allowed to give their testimony. Ironically, the Thiruvalla Center Pastor comes to the service at 12:00 Noon only to deliver the sermon. The reason for his delay is bodily weakness. However, this particular elder does not want to give the same advantage to the elderly parents who may have multiple ailments
5. The Same servant of God Started counting the names and number of people who did not come to the Bible study/Fasting Prayer/ Tarrying meeting, in an effort to make them feel sorry.
According to Galatians 5:4, most of the TPM ministers have fallen from GRACE and they are trying to minister condemnation,Judgement,Fear and Death to the believers. Unfortunately, TPM believers are docile and will not say a word because they have been manipulated and dominated to that extent. God Save TPM
Thanks
G. P Sam
I don’t encourage your views about the TPM, the group of people who is preaching about Jesus should not be blamed, we are not here to judge others, The only Judge is our Lord God, We need a spiritual gathering on all Sundays, so we go there to Worship the God, So our choice is only to worship and not to speak ill about others,
Whatever you say or your opinions may be right, but we cannot Judge, Our Lord will take care of all Goods and Evils, so who has sowed will reap.
We have other good things to do than speaking ill on others, we can help to people who are poor, needy, this is what Our Lord has told us to do , if you have two things, give one to other who doesn’t have, Love thy neighbor as thyself, Our Jesus is the Only God to the World.
Let us preach good things to the people and not misguide, who believes in Jesus will never be left.
regards,
Williams
praise the lord,
im beulah i have read ur comments on site but im opposing it
im a TPM believer from my childhood my family is in divine healing from 20 years.
i never used medicine till now.TPM is different from other churches,they r not asking anyone
single rupees they lead thier lives only on faith ,they obeyed for full time ministry leaving
everything(parents,assets,friends)
lot of people healed from blindness,lepracy,cancer,heart attack
thats y so many r believing this and thier rules also strict thay preach the gospel very boldly only praising god.
they tell about holy spirit but so many r not believing this but among those so many were believe this after getting this
i hope u wil do the same and i want 2 know u r which church? and i want tel d same like sandra.
please examine urself and ask god which is the best church ,he wil only tel the right answer
hope u got the right answer from god.
please send ur reply 2 my mail.
regards
bula.
and this answer is also to rachel mithra
Hi. All,
Bro Williams views seems like TPMites holy thinking. Praise the Lord, One neednot worry if one has to speak the TRUTH even if a few are offended because of their narrow belief or other then the BIBLICAL belief. The TRUTH will always stand. One is not JUDGING when one speaks the TRUTH.
We need to be GOD pleasers and not man pleasers
The root cause of this article is:
You have never heard the voice of God. Hence such hatred.
You have never experienced a healing from God.
Many AG and other church believers do not take medicine. so what? If you have faith you can move the mountain.
If the doctors forsake you, then who are you going to trust in?
People have different calling. According to your life the reward in heaven will be. I am sure that such people who have higher faith will have better rewards in heaven. I see that you have little understanding.
Finally, you have some bitterness in your heart, which is not good. I pray that God will open your eyes of understanding.
Dear Williams,
Wake up and lift your head out of the Sand. No point trying to justify these corrupt pseudo ministers of Christ.
It is true that while superficially looking clean, the rot runs deeper in many Pentecostal denominations.
Pentecostals have the highest number of divorces (collapse of the very first institution that God gave to mankind). In India, there is no official statistics, but it is confirmed in the West that Atheists and Agonists do far better than Pentecostals in this regard.
If you believe God to be omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent, do you think this God is bothered about silly matters like tithes, Sabbath, divine healing, and dress codes? God is not a corporate god, and he doesn’t dole our performance-based incentives.
Please LOVE and do JUSTICE to others as you do to yourself – this is what God’s Love is about – and this is what Jesus said. Let us give more importance to the teachings of Jesus rather than the teachings of our “tradition.”
I very much appreaciate the comments posted on 03.09.2010 QUITTING TPM. Please LOVE and do JUSTICE to others as you do to yourself. Let us give more importance to teachings of JESUS rather than teachings of men made (Traditions) such as dress code, Divine healings, great imortance to tongues, self rightiiousness that only we are going to heaven etc. etc. Then we will be able to draw all people to CHRIST rather then to any denomination. God bless
Hi Rachel Chitra,why don’t you stop criticizing TPM denomination and start thinking about, if I die today with all the bitterness in my heart where will I spend my eternity. Bible says ‘It’s appointed unto man once to die and then the judgement’ whether you choose to believe you’re an atheist does not exclude you from standing before God one day giving account of everything you have done .So remember your creator in the days of your youth before the evil days come.So Repent of your sins turn again to the Lord and He will be merciful to you .Bible says ‘Taste and see that the Lord is good. May God Bless you.
I am a born TPM. I mean my grandad mr.appadurai was worked with Pastor appukutti. we had a shop. He had a prostite cancer at 40 something . he never took medicine and says it is god’s gift for his sins becos he involved some kind family killings in india and runaway. and He never refused medicine for somebody in our family specially kids,he says it is not his deciion. gold and shiny cloths? wear plain cloths. be plain … if husband wears rolex,wife can wear rolex aswell.
sisters preach in rural places and senior sister can preach if a senior pastor not available.
rachal chitra is a god send for tbm.
her grandmma ———— god bless
My GOD, I don’t understand where are we going. What is wrong what is right. I am confused.
I want to go to heaven and all these arguments that is right this wrong is not going to lead anywhere. LOOK to JESUS THE AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF OUR FAITH. Don’t look at any man whoever. After all we are all made of dust of the earth.
Every person/church has its own problem. Pray that’s all
Pray for me also
God bless you all TPMites, who by choice are bound and misled by ‘Alwinism.’ Don’t be fooled by sermons which go over your heads, while you think it is so deep that you can’tunderstand it. This is how people are controlled in cults.
Don’t let the white clothes, and the ‘Bramacharies’ take you for a ride. Some of them are wolfs in sheep’s clothing!!
May God open your eyes of understang, and set you free from ‘Alwinism.’ ‘Alwinism’ has slaughtered many physically and spiritually, on the Highway to Heaven. I have seen innocent children dieing , in great agony and pain, because of ‘Alwinism.’
Wake up from the spell that ‘Alwinism’ put on you. Enjoy the freedom you have in Christ, and smell the Roses!! ‘Alwinism’ forbids roes and flowers, at weddings. But it was ok in funerals.
I shall return to fight ‘Alwinism.’
I was brought up in a CPM/TPM family. I was talking in tongues when 14, water baptized when 17 and left home and joined college and undertook life of sins for 34 years. \smoked 100000 cigarrets, tried many kinds of drugs , alcohol atlest 1500 liters of whiskey, worked in many countries… and on and off used to be filled with the luv of \Jesus and realized the sinful life which always left a guilty/ dirty feeling when wake up the next day. While in remote africa, thru TBN TV 24 hr ministry again drawn closer to the luv of \Jesus.geve up tobacco, drugs and alcohol of 34 years, left boozing/partying life and returned back to India. I am attending TPM church twice amonth and still having carnal/spiritual fights…. but still feel TPM is trying their best to save many for the eternal kingdom. Pettyness that may be in TPM is the evil one’s design and not Christ’s purpose on mankind. TPM i am sure is also one of the tools of God’s eternal purpose on humanity’s deliverence from Adam’s disobedience. Let us fight the evil one thru thru HIS power to reign with HIM eternally!!
Removing jewels is not the purpose of life. There is much more.
If removing jewels is the purpose of life god would not have given the jewels to the Israelites to wear.
Some might not want to wear jewels because they might think that removing jewels is their purpose in life.
God has greater purposes. He looks for love, holiness and to preach the gospel. That is why he anointed everyone with his Holy Spirit.
TPM may want to project their piety and their righteousness externally with white dresses. God is not interested in those external piety “displays”.
God wants you to know that you are a priest with a far better calling than Aaron. Because Aaron could not enter into the most holy with confidence. But in Christ, we can take his blood and enter into the most holy and call the father as “abba” confidently!!
Read Hebrews 4:16 and Heb 10:19. Remember, Aaron did not have the same confidence as we have in Christ.
TPM believers are taught to show off their piety with “white” and remain ignorant of this great truth. They also like to brag about TPM workers rather than try to fulfill the “greater than Aaron” priestly calling that God has for them in Christ Jesus.
May god open your eyes.
Dear All,
If someone would like to mail me their knowledge of TPM doctrines which are false please email me at:
lawtru@yahoo.co.in
Thanks & God bless you all.
Dear Brother,
A good article in your site need not be so in others view point, so dont worry about critics. Our God who created the whole universe made man with full freedom to chose good and evil. If there is a life after death, then only you have to regret. unfortunately we all will come to know about it only after death if anything like that is existing. so as in revelation last chapter do continue your work either holy or unholy still.
Folks, you guys (the critics) are erring here. The TPM does not boast that they are the chosen one. They only boast that God has saved them. And everyone tries to live their life to the fullest in the footstep of Jesus that is given in the Scripture.
With regards to codes like dress, medicine, jewels, etc., it’s all the rules wherein any institution brings in. You join a school, and you have to abide by the codes of that school. Likewise, TPM is a school. Abide by the codes. For every codes there is a reason for it.
Do you say, you want to deck yourself and also be holy. Off course, you can be. Try it out. Why you want to poke others who have neglected those or rejected those.
Let everyone look to Jesus who is the author and finisher of our race and run the race peacefully. This is the core value of TPM and not just TPM but rather of every believer of Christ.
Hope this nails to the ground.
HI FRIENDS,
IN THIS SITE I READ MANY ARTICLES. THERE ARE MANY WHO SAY ARE FROM TPM BUT THEIR LANGUAGE REALLY OFFENDS THE VISITORS.
TPM PEOPLE CLAIM TO “WALK TOWARDS PERFECTION” BUT THEIR LANGUAGE DOES NOT REALLY REFLECT THEIR “WALK TOWARDS PERFECTION” AND INSTEAD LOOKS ABUSIVE.
JESUS SPOKE AND ACTED WITH COMPASSION. MANY TPM PEOPLE DO NOT EVEN WISH “PRAISE THE LORD” WHEN THEY SEE CHRISTIANS FROM OTHER DENOMINATIONS. AND STILL THEY CLAIM TO WALK TOWARDS “PERFECTION”. IT APPEARS RIDICULOUS. MAYBE THEY ARE TAUGHT TO BEHAVE IN THAT MANNER BY THEIR LEADERS.
MAY GOD OPEN THE EYES OF SUCH PEOPLE. MAY THEIR FOCUS BE TURNED FROM GLORIFYING THEIR DENOMINATION OR THEIR LEADERS AND INSTEAD LET THEM PREACH THE GOSPEL AND WIN SOULS.
GOD BLESS YOU ALL. SPECIAL GREETINGS TO RACHEL.
dear all,
i am a member of tpm and am very much worried to see these comments. there was a time most of the believers were under educated and were kept away from the world around them. please understand that people are highly educated and highly employed (including women) these days and talk to any of them what they think of their church.
we have pastors/workers who are available for us to pray when we are sick or we are in sorrow. we have pastors/workers pray for each family at early morning every day (@4 am without fail-you can check it out) when we are mostly in deep sleep. we have pastors/workers who do not carry the small amounts given by us to their families to feed their childen/wife, or to secure admission for their children to bsc nursing etc..
is it normal that they command a superior respect from the believers than others in other denominations?
i am just touching a single point for want of time. but please believe me, this is the only pentecostal church, where the basic doctrines taught by the pentecostal leaders of early ages (when they were all working together), are still preached. and this is the only church where anointing of holy spirit and the resultant purification is given utmost important that anything. and this is the only church where some sort of discipline is till kept. please look back to your own churches and see for it.
please forgive me and pray for me if i hurt anyone’s feelings.
praise the lord.
i am roshini Thomas i am a Pentecost i knw tht u hve read the bible for 20 yrs i think u hve to read it 4r another 10 yrs hve u read tht thr will be lot of false doctrines during the last days iam sure u r 1 of u pls remember which ever corner u go 2 remember Pentecost is best u r daily in my prayers i am sure u will knw the correct path very soon better if u realize it before death
Guys & Gals,
If you are a believer live your life worshipping GOD. The ones who are not will either get saved or remain atheist.
Everyone who is giving all kinds of names to TPM believers and workers , dont forget they are all humans just like us. They are not perfect and mistakes happen. Regardless of the rules and regulaions of TPM , they mean well.
If God desires he will guide us all..
dear moderator,
you have removed the post from me last week. i strongly feel the blog is run by anti tpm campaigners. i will pray for you
jojo
Dear jojo,
Have a look at this URL. It seems they are speaking of TPM.
http://www.simpleandright.com/faq/wrong-practices/117-is-christ-divided.html
Hello moderator,
Where is my article? Hope you have not deleted it.
Sam.
sam
alan
TO
ALL
TPM WORKERS, PASTORS, AND BELIEVERS WHO ARE BRAIN WASHED, AND HELD
CAPTIVES BY ‘ALWINISM’, AND ALSO ARE UNDER THE ‘SPELL”BEWITCHED,’
GIVING HEED TO SEDUCING SPIRITS AND DOCTRINES OF MEN. I AM
PROBABLY THE ONLY ‘FAITH HOME’ ALIVE WHO IS BOLD, ENLIGHTENED, AND
DELIVERED FROM THE ‘SPELL’ THAT ‘ALWINISM’ CAST ONE ME. I WAS NOT IN
TPM BY CHOICE. I WAS A VICTIM OF CIRCUMSTANCE. MY LATE FATHER WAS A
PASTOR IN TPM (CPM). I WAS ONLY A FEW MONTHS OLD, AND MY BROTHER PETER
THREE YEARS OLD, WHEN MY FATHER MOVED TO SRI LANKA, FROM INDIA.
PASTOR ALWIN FORCED ME INTO THE MINISTRY WHEN I WAS SIXTEEN YEARS OLD.
I WAS PASTOR ALWIN’S ‘BLUEEYED BOY.’ HE NEVER BEAT ME UP, LIKE HE DID
SOME OF THE BOYS AND GIRLS. REGARDLESS, I HAVE TO DENOUNCE AND EXPOSE
‘ALWINISM’ BECAUSE IT IS NOTHING BUT THE PERSONAL REVELATIONS OF ONE
MAN, WHICH WAS NEVER CHALLENGED, FOR FEAR OF EXCOMMUNICATION, AND
DEMOTION. PASTOR ALWIN RINGED HIMSELF WITH POWER HUNGRY MEN WHO WERE
GIVEN HIGH POSITIONS, AND AUTHORITY, AS LONG AS THEY DID NOT OPPOSE HIM
OR HIS DOCTRINES. PASTOR FREDDY PAUL WAS THE ONLY MAN I KNOW WHO
CHALLENGED AND DISAGREED WITH PASTOR ALWIN, FOR WHICH HE WAS BANISHED
TO INDIA AND FINALLY TO THE U.S, WHERE HIS FREEDOM WAS CONTROLLED, BY
PASTOR ALWIN. ‘ALWINISM’ WHAT IS IT? iT IS THE PERSONAL REVELATIONS OF
PASTOR ALWIN R DE ALWIS, WHO WAS THE CO FOUNDER OF CPM, WHICH IS NOW
CALLED TPM.
PASTOR PAUL THE FOUNDER WAS A VERY SIMPLE MAN,WHO DID NOT SPEAK ENGLISH.
AVERY SINCERE MAN,WHO WAS SAVED, AND HE TRUSTED GOD FOR ALL
HIS SIMPLE NEEDS. THEN CAME ALONG PASTOR ALWIN WHO WAS THE FIRST
EDUCATED MAN WHO WAS A TRAINED TEACHER, AND WAS FROM A MIDDLE CLASS
FAMILY. HE WAS A VERY SMART MAN. GOOD ENOUGH FOR THE DEVIL TO DECEIVE.
HE RULED CPM WITH AN IRON FIST. ” DO AS I SAY OR YOU ARE OUT.” NOBODY
DARED CHALLENGE HIM, FOR FEAR OF EXCOMMUNICATION, OR DEMOTION. IF YOU
TOW THE LINE YOU ARE OK.
1TIM. 4,1-3. THE SPIRIT CLEARLY SAY THAT SOME MEN WILL ABANDON THE FAITH
IN LATTER TIMES; THEY WILL OBEY LYING SPIRITS AND FOLLOW THE TEACHINGS
OF DEMONS. THESE TEACHINGS COME FROM THE DECEIT OF MEN WHO ARE LIARS,
AND WHO CONSCIENCES ARE DEAD, AS IF BURNT WITH A HOT IRON. SUCH MEN
TEACH IT IS
WRONG TO MARRY. PLEASE NOTE, THAT ONE OT THE GREATEST REVELATIONS ALWIN
HAD WAS IT WAS WRONG TO MARRY. HE ONCE TOLD ME, WHEN I WAS A TEENAGER,
THAT MARRIAGE WAS NOTHING BUT SEX. THE WORD HE USED WAS SO DIRTY , AND I
DARE NOT MENTION IT IN A PUBLIC FORUM. ACCORDING TO PAUL’S WARNING TO
YOUNG TIMOTHY, THOSE OBEY LYING SPIRITS, FOLLOW TEACHINGS OF DEMONS,
COME FROM THE DECEIT OF MEN WHO ARE LIARS, AND WHOSE CONSCIENCE IS
DEAD, AS IF BURNT WITH A HOT IRON!!!!
ONE OF THE FIRST REVELATIONS PASTOR ALWIN HAD WAS
‘EDENIC PERFECTION.’ HE CONVINCED A FEW THAT WE ARE RESTORED TO ‘EDENIC
PERFECTION’ WHEN WE ARE BORN AGAIN. HE TOOK A FEW BROTHERS AND SISTERS
TO A LONELY PLACE, AND TOOK THEIR CLOTHES OFF, AND WERE LOOKING AT EACH
OTHER. PASTOR PAUL PUT AN END TO IT. I DON’T BELIEVE THAT THIS IS
PRACTICED TODAY. AFTER PASTOR PAUL THERE WAS NO ONE TO CORRECT HIM. HE
WAS, THE KING OF THE CASTLE, THE DICTATOR, DESPOT AND EXECUTIONER!! IS
IT ANY WONDER THAT, PASTOR ALWIN PUT US IN A SCHOOL WHERE WERE UNDER ALL
KINDS OF ABUSE. (PHYSICALLY, MENTALLY, SEXUALLY) WE WERE ALSO
STARVING ALMOST EVERY DAY, WHILE HE HAD THE BEST OF FOOD ALL THE TIME,
COOKED BY HAND PICKED COOKS, AND THAT TOO 24/7!! ALWIN WAS FLYING
AROUND THE WORLD, AND SPENDING THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS ON CARS, WHILE WE AS
CHILDREN WERE STARVING. DOES GOD REALLY GIVE REVELATIONS TO A MAN LIKE
THIS FOR ‘THE PERFECTION OF THE SAINTS.’ ‘WE PREACH THAT WE MAY PERFECT
EVERY MAN IN CHRIST.’ I CALL THIS HOG WASH!! PASTOR ALWIN VISITED US
ONCE IN A WHILE , AND HE DID NOT COME WITH SOME GOODIES, INSTEAD HE CAME
WITH A CANE TO BEAT US UP AND FORCE CONFESSIONS OUT OF US. HE KICKED
THOMAS KOSHY, FOR COMING HIS HAIR NICE AND NEAT. I DON’T EVEN KICK MY
DOG LIKE THAT.
A YOUNG GIRL TEENAGER WAS GRABBED BY HER HAIR AND SLAMMED TO THE FLOOR,
FOR WRITING A LOVE LETTER!!
ALWIN’S CONSCIENCE WAS DEAD AND SEARED WITH A HOT IRON. HE SHOULD HAVE
BEEN THE FIRST MAN WHO SHOULD HAVE BEEN MARRIED, AND RAISED UP KIDS.
GOD’S FIERY JUDGMENT CAME ON THAT SCHOOL, IT WAS JUST BURNT DOWN!!
ALWIN ABUSED HIS POSITION AS CHIEF PASTOR, AND FORCED OUT CONFESSIONS
FROM WORKERS, SPECIALLY
YOUNG SISTERS. MY BROTHER WAS HIS CHAUFFEUR, WHO DROVE HIM TO THE
SISTERS TRAINING CENTER, WHERE HE STAYED INTO THE EARLY HOURS OF THE
MORNING, FORCING OUT CONFESSIONS OUT OF THESE SINCERE SISTERS, ON THE
PRETEXT OF HELPING THEM WITH WITH ‘VICTORIOUS LIVING’, WHILE HE WAS
GETTING HIS THRILLS!! HE ALSO ‘ FIDDLED’ WITH THEM ON THE PRETEXT OF
‘SANCTIFYING’ THEM. DURING THESE SESSIONS SOME OF HIS VICTIMS EVEN SPOKE
IN TONGUES. THE ‘SPIRIT ‘OF ALWINSISM SURE CAME DOWN ON THEM!!! PASTOR
S.B ERNEST TOLD ME THIS WHILE I WAS IN LONDON. THIS WAS THE TIME THAT
PASTOR ERNEST DID SOME INVESTIGATION, AND FOUND OUT THE TRUE ALWIN. I
WAS THE ONE WHO MAILED REGISTERED LETTERS TO MANY KEY PASTORS WORLD
WIDE.
ST PAUL CAME ACROSS A GROUP OF PEOPLE IN GALATIA,WHO WERE UNDER A SPELL
THE SPELL OF A FALSE TEACHER LIKE PASTOR ALWIN. HE ASKS THEM IN
GALATIANS 3: 1-3 ” YOU FOOLISH GALATIANS, WHO PUT A SPELL ON?
(BEWITCHED YOU)—- TELL ME JUST THIS ONE THING: DID YOU RECEIVE GOD’S
SPIRIT BY DOING WHAT THE LAW REQUIRES, OR BY HEARING AND BELIEVING THE
GOSPEL? HOW CAN YOU BE SO FOOLISH!! YOU BEGAN
BY GOD’S SPIRIT; DO YOU WANT TO FINISH BY YOU OWN POWER? (ALWINISM) I
BELIEVE THAT THE MAJORITY OF THE TPM HEIR-ACHY IS UNDER THE SPELL OF
‘ALWINISM’.
HOW CAN ANYONE FOLLOW PASTOR ALWINS PERSONAL REVELATIONS?
YOU DO NOT NEED TO BE A SPIRITUAL GENIUS TO SEE THE INHERENT FLAWS, AND
GROSS TWISTING OF SCRIPTURES. THE TOP PASTORS HAVE IT SO GOOD, EVEN
MUCH BETTER THAN ALWIN. SO WHY ROCK THE BOAT?????
WHEN ALWIN CALLED MARRIAGE UNCLEAN, AND A DEFILEMENT WHEN GOD CALLS IT
HOLY, IS A CLEAR SIGN THAT HE WAS BLINDED BY SATAN.
AN UNCLEAN SPIRIT CONTROLLED HIM AND PUT HIM ON A SPELL. THIS SPELL WAS
PASSED ON TO THE TOP MEN WHO WERE ALWIN’S CRONIES. THESE MEN
STORED THOUSANDS OF RUPEES FOR ALWIN WHEN CHILDREN WERE STARVING DAY AND
NIGHT. ONE OF THE PASTORS PERSONALLY TOLD THIS TO ME. ” I HAVE LOTS
OF MONEY IN MY TRUST FOR PASTOR ALWIN” THIS PARTICULAR PASTOR WAS A
GREAT BIBLE TEACHER, WHO PREACHED ON ZION PROCLAIMING ALWIN’S
HERETICAL TEACHING
THAT ONLY UNMARRIED PEOPLE COULD GO TO ZION.
THESE PASTORS, THREE OF THEM, CONTROLLED THOUSANDS OF SINCERE WORKERS
UNDER THE PRETEXT OF TRAINING THEM. THEY HAD THEIR SMILES FOR THE
PEOPLE OUTSIDE, BUT THEY WERE TYRANTS, WHEN DEALING WITH THE INNOCENT
AND UNEDUCATED WORKERS. THEY CERTAINLY WERE UNDER THE SPELL OF
ALWINISM, IF NOT HOW COULD DEFEND AND DO THE THINGS THEY DID? THEY
LORDED OVER GOD’S HERITAGE!!
DID YOU KNOW HOW PASTOR ALWIN ORDAINED WORKERS? AS A TEENAGER I
THOUGHT IT WAS A BIG JOKE. THE WORKERS HAD TO FILL A FORM. ONE OF THE
QUESTIONS WAS. ” HAVE YOU COMMITTED ADULTERY
AFTER YOU RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST. ONE POOR MAN WHEN ASKED THE
QUESTION, SAID “ONLY WITH MY WIFE”.
I WAS FILLING THE FORM FOR HIM BECAUSE HE DID NOT KNOW ENGLISH. TO
PASTOR ALWIN SEX EVEN WITHIN THE CONFINES OF MARRIAGE WAS A SIN. HE WAS
OBSESSED SEX. IS IT ANY WONDER HE READ THE BOOK
” THE WOMAN THE PRIEST AND THE CONFESSIONAL.”
SOME OF THE SEXUAL TERMS WERE BEYOND ALWIN’S COMPREHENSION. SO HE GOT
THEM
TRANSLATED TO HIM BY MR. BULATHSINGHALA, WHO WAS A LATIN SCHOLAR. THIS
IS ANOTHER WAY HE GOT HIS ‘JOLLIES’ MENTALLY!!!!!
LET ME GET BACK TO THE WAY HE ORDAINED WORKERS.
MEN AND WOMEN WERE SEPARATED. MEN ON ONE SIDE AND THE WOMEN ON THE
OTHER SIDE FACING EACH OTHER WITH A SPACE IN BETWEEN THEM. ALWIN WENT
TO THE TOP OF THE LINE, STOOD THERE AND MADE SURE WHO WAS WHERE, AND
THEN SPOKE IN TONGUES, AND ROARED LIKE A LION, SPEAKING IN TONGUES, AND
LAID HANDS ON THEM. WHO EVER HE LAID HANDS ON WERE ORDAINED. SO WAS
I. HE SENT A SEARCH PARTY TO LOOK FOR ME. I DID NOT WANT TO JOIN THE
CPM MINISTRY AFTER HAVING SEEN ALL THE HYPOCRISY, OF ALWIN AND THE REST.
I WAS ONLY SIXTEEN, AND KNEW NOTHING BUT ALWINISM. I EVEN PUT MY HEAD
AS LOW AS POSSIBLE TO AVOID ALWINS HAND TOUCHING MY HEAD, BUT ALWIN,
ORDAINED HIS ‘BLUE -EYED BOY INTO THE CPM MINISTRY. THAT
KIND OF ORDINATION CERTAINLY WAS NOT FROM THE LORD. I DON’T THINK SO.
ALWIN’S CONSCIENCE WAS SEARED WITH A HOT IRON.
HE DID NOT HAVE ANY FEELINGS. WHEN HE COULD NOT TAKE OVER THE FAITH
HOME IN NUGEGODA, SRI LANKA,
HE APPROACHED CHRISTIE WHO WAS A ELECTRONIS GENIUS IF HE COULD MAKE A
BOMB TO DESTROY THE WHOLE BUILDING. CHRISTIE TOLD THIS TO ME PERSONALLY
IN LONDON. HE WAS ON HIS WAY BACK TO S.LANKA, AFTER A MEETING WITH
SOME RUSSIAN SCIENTISTS.
MY DEAR TPM, CPM AND OTHERS WHO BELIEVE THAT YOU HAVE THE GREATEST
REVELATIONS, SHOULD KNOW THE SOURCE. PASTOR FREDDY SAID IT WAS FROM
THE PIT,AND SURE HE WAS RIGHT. THOSE UNDER THE SPELL OF ALWINISM, NEED
DELIVERANCE.
I DONT WISH THE DEMISE OF TPM. SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES, AND QUESTION YOUR
PASTORS. DON’T BE FOOLED BY ‘TOUCH NOT GOD’S ANOINTED.’ NO CURSE WILL
COME OVER YOU FOR CHALLENGING ALWINISM.
MAY GOD OPEN YOUR EYES OF UNDERSTANDING, AND MAY DELIVERANCE COME IN THE
NAME OF JESUS!!
IF GOD BE FOR US WHO CAN BE AGAINST US.
I WILL RETURN TO DEFEND THE TRUTH.
may god bless you,,,,
&&&
HAPPY NEW YEAR…
All,
The moderator of this blog doesn’t seem to appear again. Need to wait and see when she will be back!! Till then I’ll pause and read some other stuff on http://www.biblegateway.com
Melkizedek
suzan is correct can i have details about suzan and can i have her e-mail id
Rachel chithra don,t forget that you are always in my prayers
god bless u
may god open your eyes of understanding
DEAR BRO. JOJO,
YOU SAID THAT WORKERS ARE PRAYING FOR US night and day.
IS THAT WHY LORD JESUS SHED HIS LAST DROP OF BLOOD AND DIED FOR US ON THE CROSS AND TORE THE VEIL?
AREN’T CHRISTIANS SUPPOSED TO ENTER THE MOST HOLY PLACE AND COMMUNE WITH THE FATHER?
ISN’T IT A SHAME TO STILL DEPEND ON WORKERS LIKE BABIES LIKE HOW CATHOLICS DEPEND AND VENERATE THEIR PRIESTS, NUNS AND SAINTS?
WHY DID THE LORD HAVE TO SUFFER SUCH PAIN TO TEAR THE VEIL THAT SEPARATED MAN FROM GOD?
Dear TPM friends,
Lord Jesus suffered excruciating pain and died on the cross. Why did He do so?
In order to tear the veil in the Jerusalem Temple. What did the veil do? It separated God from man.
How did the veil come in the Temple? Because of Adam’s sin. What did Lord Jesus do? He gave His life as the penalty for sin and to tear the veil.
What is the benefit of the veil being torn? All who believe in the name of Jesus can enter the Most Holy Place behind the veil and go to the Father.
Aaron the High Priest entered through the veil with fear and only once a year. But we are commanded to enter the Most Holy Place with confidence. (Heb 4: 16; Heb 10: 19)
SO LET US NOT TRUST WORKERS TO MEDIATE FOR US. INSTEAD LET US GO TO THE FATHER BY THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST. GOD BLESS YOU.
Hi all,
I by chance saw this website; Infact i dint wanted to post any comment but am doing so to express my opinion..
this is not particularly for tpm, anyways i dont belong to that church..
Wearing jewels is upto the person whether he/she wants or not..
and when we really get very closer to God we find the worldness completely a waste so we avoid all things of the world as foolishness.. that is worldly attractions like wearing jewels, good cloths, celebrations all these stuff..
tpm is doing so to avoid worldliness and not to show off.. its not that they are whitewashed tomes they are really far far better than any other churchs in the world even though they have some little issues..
and God can never be explained But only felt and experienced by faith..
Dear Sister Ann,
Exodus 3:22: Every woman is to ask her neighbor and any woman living in her house for articles of silver and gold and for clothing, which you will put on your sons and daughters. And so you will plunder the Egyptians.”
Jewels, good clothes and celebrations are given by God. In fact in heaven the streets are of gold. Remember, God does not see our external simplicity. Instead He sees our internal spirituality. What is internal spirituality?
– Burden for lost souls.
– Sharing the gospel with unbelievers and in villages.
– Helping the poor.
– Family prayer and fasting.
– Meditating the Bible.
Many TPM believers are unable to say “praise the Lord” to other Christians.
They just want to hear sermons and be Sunday christians.
They wear white dress with no love and no burden for lost souls. Is God really pleased with that?
dear bro gvp,
if you are a pentecostal believer (any church), ask your fathers abt the basic principles of pentecostism.
from your blogs, it seems that you dont pray for anyone in the world and nobody in the world is there for you to pray for you.
it seems that you are only meeting tpm people who do not wish you with praise the lord. then you must be in a bad company or a back slider.
the world has many things for you to offer, not only gold. but the choice must be yours. if you start accepting all these and justify it as god’s gifts, dear brother, you need some urgent help from a spiritual mentor.
finally, if you are a believer of any other church, just look back to your own church and see where you are.
please pray for me too, nobody will call you a mediator, beacause our jesus taught us to pray for each other.
praise the lord.
jojo
Hi chitra
I can realy belive on the verse that in the last days many false prophesies will arise… I am sure u belong to this group. May God save u and let Him show His love of calvary to u. May the save u and bless u!……
Praise the Lord!
Hi Brothers in Christ,
Praise the Lord!
One is not surprised to see such comments, veiled threats, open threats, threats with a face of love and concern leading to prayers for Chitra’s soul…. fulfillment of last day prophecies… defending the church!!!!!!
All along I knew that fundamentals are never capable of handling dialog or debate.. they seem to dine on concrete. The irony is they have illusions of ‘being rulers’ in ‘gods kingdom… If that be so, there will be blood shed and gas chambers…
I would love to be atheist in order to be a good Christian, I would love to embrace other religions and thereby become stronger in my faith in Christ.. I would want to trample over sin (not run away or side step) and lift up the banner of Christ..
Dear Bro. Jojo,
1. I hope you will from now on instruct the TPM workers to seek the prayers of the believers. Because the believers also enter the Most Holy Place as per Heb 4: 16 and call God as Abba.
2. If TPM believers and workers say praise the Lord to Christians of other denominations, it is welcome.
3. To the Israelites it was not the world that offered gold. It was God who offered gold to them Read Exodus 3:22 properly. Similarly God offered gold and riches to Abraham, Job etc. Even the streets of heaven are gold.
4. TPM believers have lakhs of rupees stacked in bank accounts. Will they give up all the money?
5. I am praying for you, because you need prayers, to help you to stop being zealous for TPM and its workers and start being zealous for Christ.
6. Hope you have a burden for lost souls and share the gospel. God bless you.
Dear Pastor,
According to Bible one can give divorce if it is an adultery issue. But after divorce (adultery found in partner) , is it good to go for second marriage? can you clear me this doubt as my friend got divorce because her partner was caught in adultery. And she is staying with her parents. Kinsly pray for her
திருமண வாழ்வு கர்த்தரோடு உள்ள உறவை குறைக்கும் ஆகவே திருமணம் செய்யாமல் ஊழியம் செய்வது தான் மேலான ஊழியம் என்கிறார்கள். ஆனால் திருமண வாழ்வு கர்த்தரோடு உள்ள உறவை குறைக்கும் என்பதை ஊழியர்களுக்கு எழுதாமல் விசுவாசிகளுக்கு 1 கொரிந்தியர் 7ம் அதிகாரத்தில் எழுதப்பட்டது என்கிற சத்தியத்தை அறியாமல் தங்களை தாங்களே மெச்சிக் கொள்கிற தவிட்டுக் கோழிகளைப்போல் இருக்கிறார்கள். விசுவாசிகளும் அவர்களுடைய வேத புரட்டல்களை நம்பி விடுகிறார்கள்.
திருமண வாழ்வு கர்த்தரோடு உள்ள உறவை குறைக்கும் என்று பிரசங்கம் செய்துவிட்டு விசுவாசிகளுக்கு திருமணம் செய்து வைக்க அரசாங்கத்திடம் லைசன்ஸ் வாங்குகிறார்கள். இப்படிப்பட்ட கள்ள போதனைகளுக்கு மிகவும் எச்சரிக்கையாக இருக்கவேண்டும்.
An atheist talking about God! That too, Christianity and more over TPM! Very absurd!
And above all God’s people commenting on vain criticisms! Flee strife as the Bible says…verbal strife.
A blind Woman criticising ‘Light’ and people trying to show her the light to be seen through her blind eyes.
Let’s just pray for such people. Praise the Lord.
I was like you but after god said I have no right to say anything about this dedicated saints I corrected myself you will undersand very soon you will post the right comment abt this ministry soon Praise the lord.
I hope the author is a Christian. Unfortunately he does not display any quality of a true Christian. Paul says in Romans 8 “If any man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.” John wrote in his epistle “He that hates his brother is a murder. And we know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.” Jesus said if we knowingly belittle our brother, we are worthy of hell-fire. How much more when one says, “The TPM people are like the lilies of the field, do not spin,” etc! They do not understand why the ministers of TPM do not keep a secular job. Jesus says, “Ye greatly err, because you do not know the Scriptures and the power thereof.” The writer unfortunately do not know (perhaps) that all the members of our Church are hard-working people. I have 4 bothers and three sisters – they all are “spinning” very hard to support their families (they are married too, if you do not know!). May the Lord forgive the writer. I will be praying for the writer.
I could not even read the whole thing the person wrote about TPM. Look, what his bitter spirit has produced! Many embittered souls! Every word we say (or write) will be brought before us on the Day of Judgment (Mat 12). A book of remembrance also is being written before the Lord. I did not want to read all of it, because I hate bitterness and I do not want to partake of a writer who has the poison of bitterness in him or her. (Heb 12: “Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled.”). May our writer realize, he is injecting the venom of bitterness into the veins of many others causing them to fall short of the grace of God. God will hold us responsible for all these tale-bearing, gossiping and false accusations. Our God is a righteous Judge. Let us fear an tremble, because the Judgment Day is just around the corner!
gvp, you seem to have no clue about the Word of God. If God “just gave gold to Abraham and others” on His volition, then why did he ask His children to take their ornaments off? Please open your Bible and read Exodus 33.
God Who created the “internal” is concerned equally about your “external” as well. When Jesus said “Do not just try to make the outside clean,” on the same token He said, “Keep your inside clean, so that your outside also may appear well.” In other words Jesus is saying, “If your inside is clean, the outside also will spontaneously become clean.” This means, when a man’s life is changed from inside, it will be displayed outwardly also. Your comment about the “internal only” is like this – say, a thief accepts Christ and now he has a new “internal” heart. But he goes on stealing! You ask him, “Why are you doing so, I thought you were a Christian.” He says, “Oh yea, I am a Christian INTERNALLY and it does not matter what I do with my EXTERNAL.”
Come on, will you just admit that you are hooked on ornaments and gold? After all, why do you wear gold? Did God take another rib of Adam and hung some of these thing on Eve’s nose, neck and ears? What does it men to be “sanctified in the body?” (1Ths 5.23).
And stop this hypocritical writing. Be honest with yourself and before God. It is better to say, “I have a lust for gold and other jewelry,” than saying, “God wants us to have gold.” Don’t blame God for your lust (to appear beautiful outwardly, so that you can attract others to yourselves.).
Thanks!
I guess you dont know how a gold chain is made. Its human endeavor, very fascinating stuff. Its got a lot to teach you about life, just like the Bible/ When a girl wears it around her neck it not only adorns her, the glitter will remind you the kind of pain and suffering that metal has to go through to come to that state.
You would notice that a lot of TPM doctrine is captured in a piece of Gold ornament.
Its strange but you see the similarity between God and Gold. The only difference is that a L has come in between. L generally stands for “Learner” . These are deep doctrines that are revealed to only few people.
He he that hath an ear let him hear.
End of the day its all about power and dominion you see. Remove all the accouterments that are likely to make a woman look good so that she is keep in subjection. Thats the trip. Lets say the missionary position.
Dear brothers and sisters,
Happened to come across you blog. Felt like sharing my opinion.
I was born in TPM family. Till recent times I questioned the fellowship and went to many other places and even stopped going to churches. God took me through difficult ways and taught me not to talk against the servants of God and now I’m back, I still have a lot of sinful nature. Please pray for me.
And to my dear friends debating on TPM, I don’t think its worth to debate on churches. There are flaws everywhere. Just focus on Jesus. He is coming to gather HIS Church (not any denomination). And those debating the existence of God it’s a humble invitation to come closer to Jesus.
Please keep in mind that Man was made to have fellowship with God. If a person has no wrongdoings and still is not with Jesus and obeying his word then he is to be in Sin.
TPM is a very good church but there are some people who just boast about it. Don’t get distracted by that. I heard a sermon by a pastor who said that they are called to be servants of God and to serve the believers. This is the true nature of many servants of God. Some believers they just exalt some servants of God too much which causes problems.
Even in TPM, believers can do a lot of ministry like tracts, conduct open air meeting, and help the bible society and the Gideon.
And regarding the doctrine, I feel if the doctrine is bringing you closer to God, there is nothing wrong in it. Regarding jewels and medicines and a host of other things which include money, lavish lifestyle, costly garments, it’s a personal choice to forego these things as these things wont matter much to you once you start growing in Him, and the church urges the believers to follow them to reach a higher standard of Christian life.
I urge you to please refrain from talking about the stories of Pastors. Humans will err, look to the righteous God. It will cause the new Christians to fall.
I read a lot of more accusations about the church which I think will prevail as part of Satan’s work in the church. Please pray that those things will be set right instead of public accusations
Every denomination has a/some pet doctrine. For some ,Saturday is the day of worship and for some, washing the feet of communicants prior to Holy Communion. Some do not have baptism and Holy Communion. Some speak in tongues and some are against speaking in tongues saying that unless the tongue can be interpreted, speaking in tongue is not valid. All these doctrines originate from some verse in the Bible. In these maze of doctrines, what Jesus said and did is not paid much attention to. “The Jesus I never knew is a book” written by Phillip Yancey and it is of great help in understanding what is required of a Christian. Je recommende vivement à tout le monde de lire le livre “The Jesus I never knew”
Dear Friends.
Greetings in the name of Lord & Saviour Jesus Christ
I am Ex-TPM Believer, up to my 12th class i was attending tpm Church regularly.when i went to Gujarat for my Higher studies i used attend a other pentecostal church.after one year i came back to home town for my vacation .That time tpm church was conducting Holy communion service coming Sunday.
The pastor of that church asked me that “Did You took Holy communion from other than TPM Church”.i told yes i took. Then he said that , u should tell apology for that in Sunday worship.i said i wont do that-He was so much angry and he preached against me in the church congregation. they did not allow me to take part in Holy communion service.
just think about this and decide is TPM is cult or not?
Thanks
Do reply me all my TPM FRIENDS
Dear all,
Over here everybody wanna to criticise the TPM teaching or the believers or the participants in this block…. nobdoy wants to know the truth…. ‘ts like the four blind men and the elelephants – experience.
Please if you or anyone wants to know more about TPM, please visit them in person and clear your doubts.
Regards
Its very interesting to read things about a church that i have been attending for the past 31 years….BLINDLY. i guess i was amongst many who were born and brought up in this TPM faith. but what is more interesting is that i left the church mid of last year (2010) due to few reasons …even before i got to read this hurting yet beliveable blogs….why believable coz i have seen so many of the written stuff is really TRUE.
i stopped using powder at the age of 7 because an old lady came from India who claimed to be a worker from the TPM and preached to us saying that those who wear powder or any type of facial will go to hell…and day in and out they will rot in hell with face filled with powder. she painted a very bad picture and as a very young child …who was very religious..it really terrified me… what’s more amazing is that now ..the TPM workers are buying facial for whitening their skin…and im not talking about all…you will be amazed to know this same bunch of workers who removed mirrors from the bathrooms to reduce vanity amongst young girls…and try to drill no fashions of the world…but what has happened? double standards?
well at the age of 8..i met with a car accident…and again i was taught from young that if your a christian …you depend of Jesus for healing…which we called it divine healing…so my parents were advised not to admit me in the hospital….and due to that or i dont know what….my blood got infected….and i have been suffering from a skin condition ever since…for the past 24 years….and this same people asked me to pray for my deliverance,…and the worst is that they told me…maybe i got this so that i will serve God in the TPM full time ministry….how sad. i dont see miracles neither do i believe in them anymore. though i must say i was a bit impressed with the Indian TPM workers who did their ministry in Malaysia….but overall i was disappointed with so many things….
there we many young ladies who joined the ministry to do out reach ministry…but the sad thing is that they were made to be in the kitchen to cook for the pastor in charge…or for the chief pastor when he is in Malaysia for the annual convention…or they are made to wash the bathrooms and iron their senior’s white saree…im sure that can build character….how sad….there are so many perishing souls….out there but we are more interested in feeding ourselves…i am asking them not to eat….but there are more important things why God called you to serve Him.
my family was one of the families that really loved God and gave importance to the workers as they were serving the almighty God. but its sad when this workers use these type of families to do their personal chores…..each church needs a group of people to support each other…not to make use…
my sister and i got married in this faith because i didnt want to disappoint my in-laws…basically that was it. coz in TPM churches…the funerals are more exciting than the weddings….i agree with being decent in the gown that a bride wears…but with no flowers…no rings…i cant accept…a wedding is suppose to be the happiest day in a person’s life and you know it will only happen once…but the sad thing is….in TPM it is NOT. well… i though God created flowers…and you know something…i was so disappointed to know the TPM church in the US actually is decorated with flowers on the pulpit….what the heck…right!!!another story of my life…and many others.
last week i heard from a TPM believer the chief pastor of Malaysia said during the annual children’s day that you dont have to send your kids for higher education….coz the drug addicts and drop outs are from Harvard and Cambridge..so there is no use in studying….is this what you tell the young generation….he even said stop making babies and focus on God…who is he to say that…i thought children were blessings of God, the Father. well are they saying all this to make the married people feel miserable…and break a happy marriage or make people to hate the institution of marriage so that there will be more people to join the “consecrated ministry” that they take pride on? that is not right…the calling should be from God. it shouldnt be forced on anyone…
i am very glad that my whole family has left the TPM after 31 years…and have joined decent churches and i still believe in God and i still pray that one day…all this people will come to their senses and make the right decision of following the bible and the teaching of Jesus and not any of the teaching of the chief pastor or central pastors….or i’m sure the wrath of God will come on us and there might not be a place to hide.
God, please show us the right way that we may be able to know what is right and wrong. I pray on behalf of all the churches that we should be one in the body of Jesus and not create new teaching to suit our personal interest. Jesus, please forgive things that we have done knowingly or unknowingly. Only you can lead the way to heaven. Please, Father in heaven…show is mercy and deliver our souls from eternal damnation and from Satan. Amen
Dear Philip
i was visited ,confirmed things which i wrote here, teaching should confirm with Bible.Remove Cover of Tpm And read bible ,God will answer all the questions about tpm.
May God Bless
CAN A CHRISTIAN WEAR JEWELS? WHAT IS GOD’S WILL?
A) In Exodus 3:21,22 God commanded the Jews to ask the
neighbours for Gold jewels.
Then God did not ask them to carry them in skin bags
(The Jews were basically shepherds and had plenty of
animal skins) but asked to wear it upon their
children.
Why? Because God wanted His children to be blessed.
God did not expect His children to lust for gold but
to use them and be happy and focus on Him. God did not
provide just for the basic needs but also gave them
jewels to wear.
B) Why then did God ask the Jews to remove the Jewels
at the foot of the Mount?
Because they disobeyed God and made a calf idol from
their gold which He gave them to wear and so God
punished them.
C) Why did apostles Peter and Paul ask christians not
to wear jewels?
Because the new christians, in the past, were doing
group adultery before their goddesses of fertility
called Diana & Artemis. They used jewels, expensive
clothing, hairdos etc., to seduce men into adultery.
They did these immoral acts as an act of worship to
their goddesses.
Such people when they came to the church tried to
continue the same practises. Therefore, Paul gave such
a command.
D) What is God’s will?
God is unchanging as per Malachi 3:6. He wants us to
seek Him and never to lust gold. Neither is His will
to close jewellery shops.
E) What do some Pentecostal believers say ?
They say that an anointed christian should have things
which they “need” and not the things which they
“desire” like for example jewels.
What is the fact? If you observe such pentecostals you
can see the following:
1) They work in overseas countries and earn in lacs
per month.
2) They purchase the best clothes.
3) They live in houses with tiles and granites.
4) They have the best leather handbags and hairclips.
5) They do cosmetic treatment to their hair and hands.
6) They eat varieties of food cooked in coconut milk.
Just observe a TPM Pastor’s lunch.
7) Instead of wearing jewels the proportionate value
of money is stacked and stored in their bank accounts,
to the tune of lacs, for their future !!
Hence the above list shows very well that 1 to 7 does
not belong to the category of “need” but belong to the
category of “desire”.
Thus some pentecostal believers have their own “pet”
definition to the word “simplicity”. They also preach
this to others absolutely unmindful of the truth that
they themselves could not live what they preach.
F) Moreover, some Pentecostal believers confuse between
true desire and false desire. False desire is called
lust. But Bible says that Jesus became poor in order
for us to become rich as per 2 Cor 8:9. We might have
failures, afflictions and persecutions in life but it
is not God’s will for us to ask Him only for needs but
also our desires as per Ps 37:4.
G) Morover, “trusting” in jewels is different from
“using” them. A person who trusts in jewels boasts
about them. But a person who boasts about Christ &
depends on Him at all times does not trust in the
jewellery she wears.
H) Remember, God sees the heart not the white saree.
God sees the heart not the neck without jewels. Let us
not be white-washed sepulchres !
My suggestion to Pastors:
So dear pastors pls do not command to remove jewels of
believers. Instead teach them to live wisely amid
wearing jewels.
Dear Pris,
Greeting in the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ
Do Fellowship with Born again , baptized spirit filled Believers. Dont look at men. Follow Christ , He is our Author and Finisher.
For Believer, According to Romans 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[a] have been called according to his purpose.
Denomination cant Do any thing to us ,According to words:
If God is with us who can be against us.
Be with God He will take care everything
May God Bless Sis
In Christ
Roby Thomas
73.on February 20, 2011 at 9:36 am K.S. Philip
Dear Priscilla,
Thanks for your comments. And i would like to comment on this —
“i am very glad that my whole family has left the TPM after 31 years”
Dear do not worry, be happy and lively happily but one thing you must notice that so many Priccilla’s, pastors, mothers and sisters left the ministry, but still TPM and its teaching are followed by so many fools including myself and family.
So what I want to say that you are wise as per your wisdom, knowledge and understanding.
Now please tell if God gives you the incharge of TPM what all changes you want to make.
Wedding day and funeral day – full of flowers….. etc.
See after 31 years and a sudden change….. yes, sit in the presence of God and ask why and for what ??? If God speaks to you with an answer…. please let me know.
May the almighty bless you and your family too….
Philip n fly…..(Abu Dhabi)
Now we realize that we have extreme opinions for and against TPM. To voice it out in a forum like this is good.
It will be christian if we were to abstain from being offensive or defensive, instead discuss some issues that are critical to society or to do with providing better life for the poor or stand for justice etc. lets have our differences in tact tucked up our errr sleeves.
I agree with you Benny. This forum has been helpful for me who encountered abuse in this church. Thanks to Rachel for maintaining this blog.
As we clearly see in this blog, not all in TPM have the same ideology. Some have extremist, cultist ideology, while others have Christian ideology. May the latter prevail against the former.
Also, many thanks to Biju Philip and Chretien who recommended the books Mere Christianity and The Jesus I Never Knew respectively. They sure make a good reading.
Dear Brethren in Christ,
1. What is lack of faith?
TPM workers claim that taking medicines and going to doctors is lack of faith AND AT THE SAME TIME they visit the houses of Doctors and Nurses to collect tithes money from them.
Moreover, TPM workers claim that taking medicines and going to doctors is lack of faith AND AT THE SAME TIME they give communion (Raabojanam) to the thousands of Doctors and Nurses in TPM faith-homes.
So what is lack of faith?
Fearing that Doctors and Nurses might leave TPM and fearing that TPM might lose the Tithe money of those Doctors and Nurses is lack of faith.
2. What is lack of faith?
Going to a doctor for treatment is not lack of faith. Instead going to a doctor for healing is lack of faith.
But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. – James 3:17.
The issue with TPM’s doctrine on divine healing is that in many cases it cultivates petty legalism/hypocrisy rather than improving faith in God. The same pastors who preach saying one cannot be caught up in rapture if he/she takes medicine also end up taking medicine as they just switch from conventional medicines to alternative medicines such as naturopathy (drinking a lot of warm water when you have runny nose is naturopathy).
In Matthew 25:44 Jesus explicitly talks about ministering the sick, and the judgment that can befall us when we fail to do so. The definition of ‘ministering’ is to attend to the wants and needs of others (Webster’s English Dictionary). ‘Ministering’ does not end with preaching the Word of God and asking them to stop using medicines. ‘Ministering’ is comprehensive and involves treating those who are sick. The missionaries who came to India understood the correct meaning of a ‘minister’, and that is why we are blessed with many Christian hospitals and health clinics.
Luke 10: 29-36: Jesus talks about the Samaritan who cleaned the wounds, pouring in oil and wine (antiseptic), and took care of him.
Dear TPM brethren, the wisdom (doctrine) from ABOVE is without partiality and hypocrisy. TPM could consider opening some health clinics or hospitals to bring glory to the Kingdom of God.
Dear sister Rachel,
Jesus wants you to spread the gospel and preach about his second coming to the whole world.
You are not able to do this. Please allow the people who are doing it.
TPM is not a cult as you all think.
I am a TPM believer, i do take medicines.
No body in TPM forces you not to take medicines.
Sister Rachel, do u think God CANNOT HEAL, WITHOUT TAKING MEDICINES.
The Bible says “WE ARE HEALED BY HIS STRIPES AND HE WAS WOUNDED FOR OUR TRANSGRESSIONS”
THERE ARE MANY BELIEVERS IN OUR CHURCH AND IN MY FAMILY TOO WHO HAVE BEEN FORSAKEN BY ALL DOCTORS AND GOD HAS HEALED THEM.
I WILL NOT GO INTO DETAILS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE HEALED BY JESUS, SINCE YOU WILL NOT BELIEVE JESUS.
PLEASE SISTER IF YOU CANNOT DO SOMETHING GOOD IN THIS WORLD, GOD WILL FORGIVE YOU
PLEASE DO NOT SPREAD EVIL REPORT AMONG CHRISTIANS AND CAUSE CONFUSION.
THIS WAS THE SAME SPIRIT WHICH WAS WORKING IN THE TIME OF MOSES AND GOD HAD TO SENT AN EARTH QUAKE TO SWALLOW THE PEOPLE WHO WERE DOING IT
PLEASE BECOME LIKE KORAH.
MAY GOD GIVE YOU SOUND WISDOM, TO LIVE A MORAL LIFE AND NOT TO JUDGE SAINTS WHO ARE GOING TO RULE THIS WORLD.
n the entire write-up you have taken paul the example.what about the words of christ! i can show a number of memebrs from pentecostal church seeking dowry!you preach but you dont practice!why did jesus use clay while curing the blind man? to follow a religion barring reason is never welcome!never follow fanatics!this is nothing but pentecostal talibanisation! you and them are no different if you are unscrouplously following paul die upside down!
SO much problem all this falce doctrine will bring forth and destroy so much in all who lisner them let the lord send his the angels the army that fight against this difficoult doctrine and helpme too that win .I am midst of this trouble and many those of resistance force are against me ,so help and pray,thanks and bless,keijo sweden
Dear gvp…
very well said and i really like the way things are explained. well there are so many things shared and said over here…all i know is that God is great and if we do anything bad/ dumb knowingly in the name of serving God, we will be judged.
God bless.
1. It was stated, “THIS WAS THE SAME SPIRIT WHICH WAS WORKING IN THE TIME OF MOSES AND GOD HAD TO SENT AN EARTH QUAKE TO SWALLOW THE PEOPLE WHO WERE DOING IT.” This statement is used in TPM frequently in their sermons to threaten the believers from challenging their wrong doctrines. So beware of TPM!
2. Secondly, why do TPM prevents people who take medicines from taking communion? This is because they want to create an identity for themselves among other pentecostal groups. The self-glorify their calling, their consecration, their sacrifice just to promote their denomination. Just beware.
3. God sometimes heals the sick without medicines. This is a miracle. This does not happen always. God performs miracles to save a person or to increase the faith of a person. At other times God expects us not to despise the doctors who are appointed by God as per Romans 13: 1-4.
4. Actually TPM does not despise doctors or nurses, especially when they want their tithe-money. They also give them communion (if they pay tithes!) But just to glorify themselves they would say, “see we do not take medicines. so we are holier than other pentecostal people!”
Dear friends,
Please refer the comments of our dear sister Rachel Chitra:
First, I don’t believe in God and find your comment: “May Lord open your eyes of understanding” very patronising. Commenting on my blog on my capablities to understand is also plain rude.
Secondly, I don’t need your advise to “Spend some more time reading and meditating on the word of God,” as I did that for 20 years and found the Bible unjust, irrational and factually incorrect.
Thirdly, “Soon you will regret for this unwarranted post,” sounds like a threat. Is ur god going to do petty things like taking revenge on atheist bloggers for blogging? And also whether the post is “unwarrented” or not is a debatable issue.
1.Rachel does not believe in God.
2.Rachel has done enough of research on God’s word.
3.Rachel does not believe in hell or punishment given to sinners.
Brothers and sisters, Please follow Christ, who is the author and finisher of our course.
Do you all mean that TPM is nonsense?
Do you mean to say that your church is doing better ministry than TPM?
Do you mean that your spiritual standards is better than all the fools in TPM?
Brothers and sisters, i was a strong critic of TPM, I believe they are thousands of true followers of Christ in this faith.
I am not saying that all the people who are in this church will go to Zion or New Jerusalam.
I agree some people do lead double standards.
You see, Jesus had 12 disciples, one of them(Judas) betrayed him and Peter(denied) him.
DO YOU THINK JUST BECAUSE OF 2 BAD DISCIPLES, JESUS IS NOT GOOD?
NO DEAR PEOPLE, FOLLOW JESUS, WHO IS A HOLY GOD, IN HIM THERE WAS NO SIN.
HE SHED HIS ENTIRE BLOOD FOR ME AND YOU, BELIEVE HIM AND LET US SPREAD THE GOOD NEWS OF HIS GOSPEL.
MAY GOD BLESS US ALL.
wht hpnd to suzan?????????????????
hi i’ve read all the comments
God bless you Rachel. The first post of urs is very strong and I have no clue where and when you saw the TPM pastors using BMW’s.
1. God does not dwell in buildings built by TPM in many places. Acts 7: 48 and Acts 17: 24 says so.
2. Instead God dwells in our body as per 1 Cor 6: 19. God has baptised with His Holy Spirit not to make us hear thousands of sermon every sunday. Instead He Spirit baptised us to preach the gospel with miracles as per Mark 16: 17,18.
3. Be zealous for Jesus and not for any pastors or for any denomination. Be not defensive of pastors and their denominations. Instead seek the gifts of the Holy Spirit and yield to be used by God.
4. Jesus is our High Priest. We are His Royal and Holy Priests as per 1 Peter 2: 5 and 9. We can enter the Most Holy Place ANYTIME. But even Aaron can enter only once a year.
5. Catholics trust their “fathers” for mediation before God. But Lord Jesus has opened the way to His Father. Hence trust not in mediation like what catholics do.
1. Pls refrain from criticising the Moderator. Maybe she has left TPM because of lack of love and lack of testimony in the life of the TPM apostles.
2. When workers are glorified in songs and sermons, people expect a standard of love and holiness from them. But when the workers do not deliver the standard, people leave. On the other hand if Christ Jesus is glorified, people offended by the poor standard of the apostles may leave TPM but would not leave Christ Jesus. But unfortunately the thousands who have left TPM have also left Christ Jesus.
3. Hope people beware of the glorification of workers in TPM, repent of that and start to glorify Christ Jesus and His sufferings and His consecration.
Dear Rachel,
You stand no where before the TPM servants of God and the believers. Check on your spirit. No one can ever live a holy life or guide anyone to such a holiness expect these consecrated servants of God. I know how they pour out their life for perishing souls. Regret for this big mistake.
Ann
“THIS WAS THE SAME spirit WHICH WAS WORKING IN THE TIME OF MOSES AND GOD HAD TO SENT AN EARTH QUAKE TO SWALLOW THE PEOPLE WHO WERE DOING IT.” This statement is used in TPM frequently in their sermons to threaten the believers from challenging their wrong doctrines…. So beware of TPM belivers… THAT VERY spirit IS TODAY WORKING IN TPM TO SPREAD FALSE MAN MADE DOCTRINES glorify themselves INSTEAD OF THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST the TPM belivers are more focused on cultivating petty legalism/hypocrisy, rather than improving faith in God they threaten belivers who challenge their MAN MADE DOCTRINES
I have been a beliver in TPM or NTC in my part of the world for over 20 years! And I take medicine when I am sick! I have a Degree in Electrical Engineering and never been told not to go to school, and I don’t wear white clothes to the meetings! Nobody has ever told me not to take communion if I had taken medicine! Please, everyone in this blog………. God is love! Dont hate a church because it has faults. No church is perfect! Its not good to talk against the servants of God, no matter what or who they may be! I read all the comments and realized alot of you hate this church! Please, everyone has their own opinion, TPM is not the only church that will be in heaven! Not everybody from TPM will go to heaven! The important thing is knowing the LORD for who he is!
Dear rachelchitra,
If God’s people will wear color dress nothing will happen ok., Do you get me but God’s people should keep separation for everything. If you can do everything like worldly people the what is the difference between God’s people and others. DONT TALK BULL SHITTT OKK
READ THE BIBLE CAREFULLY
what is this tpm, i am bit confused, searched for some research journal in total productive maintenance, landed up here. Whats the subject being discussed here, bit confused, can anyone highlight? i just browsed thru, however no clue what you people are discussing?
FROM SAM ALLAN TO ALL THE TPMITES WHO ARE UNDER THE SPELL OF ALWINISM.
PASTOR ALWIN R DE ALWIS WAS THE MAN WHO HAD ALL THE REVELATIONS HELD DEAR BY TPM. HE WAS LATER EXCOMMUNICATED
FOR GROSS IMMORALITY.
PAUL WARNED IN 1 TIM. 1. THE SPIRIT SAYS CLEARLY SOME MEN WILL ABANDON THE FAITH IN LATER TIMES; THEY WILL OBEY LYING SPIRITS AND FOLLOW THE TEACHINGS OF DAEMONS. THESE TEACHINGS COME FROM THE DECEIT OF MEN WHO ARE LIARS, AND WHO CONSCIENCES ARE DEAD AS IF BURNT WITH A HOT IRON. SUCH MEN TEACH IT IS WRONG TO MARRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS THESE MEN TEACH IS THAT IT IS WRONG TO MARRY. PAS. ALWIN ALTHOUGH HE SOLEMNIZED THOUSANDS OF WEDDINGS IN HIS LIFE TIME, HE HAD A VERY DIM AND DIRTY VIEW OF MARRIAGE. AS THIS IS A PUBLIC FORUM, WILL NOT USE THE WORD HE
USED WHILE WAS IN MY EARLY TEENS.
FAITH HOMES WAS ALWIN’S IDEA. THIS PROVIDED HIM WITH ALL THE WOMEN HE NEEDED. HE USED TO SPEND HOURS AT THE SISTERS TRAINING CENTER IN SRI LANKA, ON THE TAKING CONFESSIONS FROM SINCERE SISTERS ON THE PRETEXT OF SANCTIFYING THEM. MY BROTHER WAS HIS CHAUFFEUR. HE WAS LATER CAUGHT AND EXPOSED BY PAS. S.B. ERNEST.
PASTOR ALWIN FLEW AROUND THE WORLD, WHILE WE AS HELPLESS CHILDREN STARVING IN THE SCHOOL HE SET UP. HE USED TO COME THERE, TO FORCE CONFESSIONS OUT OF US AND BEAT THE DAY LIGHTS OUT OF US. I REMEMBER HIM KICKING THOMAS KOSHY LIKE
KICKING A DOG. I WAS TOLD THAT HE GRABBED A TEENAGE GIRL BY HER HAIR AND THREW HER ON TO THE FLOOR, FOR WRITING A LOVE LETTER TO A BOY. HIS CONSCIENCE WAS SEARED WITH A HOT IRON.
ALWIN’S CONSCIENCE WAS SEARED LIKE WITH A HOT IRON. IS IT ANY WONDER THAT HE SEPARATED FAMILIES. HUSBANDS FROM WIVES, AND CHILDREN FROM PARENTS. DOES GOD REALLY GIVE A MAN LIKE THIS REVELATIONS TO ‘ PERFECT THE SAINTS AND PRESENT EVERY MAN PERFECT IN CHRIST. THIS MAN WAS A WOLF IN SHEEP’S CLOTHING,
SO WERE HIS TOP AIDS, WHO WERE UNDER THE SPELL OF ‘ALWINISM.’
CAN GODLY MEN REALLY TOLERATE SUCH NONSENSE!!
YOU MIGHT ARGUE WITH ME SAYING THAT, “THIS IS THE LORD’S DOING BECAUSE WE ARE SPREADING ALL OVER THE WORLD. THE J.W’S, AND OTHER CULTS ARE GROWING MUCH FASTER THAN TPM!!!!!! .
TPM IS A DISASTER AND A FAILURE IN THE WEST!!. 90% OF ALL THE BELIEVERS ARE FROM THE EAST. THE WEST HAS REJECTED “ALWINISM.’
IT IS SAD THAT MANY MILLIONS ARE SEDUCED BY ‘ALWINISM.’
MAY THE LORD OPEN YOUR EYES. THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE, AND I SHALL RETURN TO DENOUNCE ‘ALWINISM.’ WITH THE HOPE
SETTING THE CAPTIVES FREE. ONE AT A TIME
‘
Its disappointing to witness so much smear-campaigning among us Christians…honestly this is enough any faithful person to doubt the integrity of the Christian faith..the problem arises when we try to picture God as a refree blowing whistle and stoping our play’s progress just to punish while in reality He is a personal coach who helps me to improve and keep progressing, he ain’t a God of stagnancy and rot He is a God who calls us to keep growin lookin at each of our capabilities…He is one who places responsiblities(or as we all call it our daily cross) on our shoulders after measuring the capability of my shoulder…He ain’t a Modi or a dictator whom I should be afraid of…people say FEAR GOD than whats the difference between fearing a dictator and fearing GOD both are the same to me..I rather fear losing the love of GOD his companioonship and that too when I opt to stray away when i sin..HE is a God who values small sacrifices I make for me Jesus outcalsses all other God’s belief not because i was born a Christian its bcoz of what He was and what He did,,,with death He offered the sacrifice that no other super sane Gods did and with resurrection He assures me of a resurrection that no other God does…ONLY when I am personally aware of a Love greater than that of my parents my friends my loved ones can I understand the love and secrets of my Savior..please atleast do not condemn each other..only wen we have one Love for Christ and a non-judgemental relational with our fellow-beings can v speak of one community who speaks for Christ…not bcoz Chist cant speak for Himself but that we too get an oppurtunity to know Him and grow in wisdom and TRUTH
Seriously, was Pastor Alwyn CAUGHT for sexual immorality? In the words of two or three witnesses the truth shall be established. What actually happened, how was he caught and by who? Why would it be during a trip in France?
Anyway, even if that did happen, we are not to look to the failings of a travailing Church. Otherwise, we will not overcome the discouragement from the falling of men. The Church travails to bring forth the Man Child. Are you travailing in prayer FOR the church?
Even the unbelievers know to say “And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.” Acts 5:38 – 39
Sam Alan,
I am a member of the TPM in SE Asia. I am shocked to hear things such as “He preached his personal revelations, as Gospel Truth. Is it any wonder that severe judjment came upon him. His last days on earth, even in his death, he was surrounded by drunks, smokers,and drug addicts. They even carried his casket to his grave!!!”
Maybe it should be irrelevant to my personal spiritual growth.. but is what you are saying true?
God Bless You Bro SAM ALAN for exposing the TRUTH TO DENOUNCE ‘ALWINISM .” WITH THE HOPE OF SETTING THE
CAPTIVES FREE ONE AT A TIME” To speak the truth in LOVE is not sin
As we clearly see in this blog, not all TPM believers have the same ideology. Some have extremist cultist ideology, while others have Christian ideology. May the latter prevail against the former. keep it up Thanks to Sister Rachel for maintaining this blog.
GOD BLESS U ALL
roshini, suzan is no more!
Wow, There is so much hatred for this TPM, I stumbled onto this blog and can some one explain what exactly TPM is? I mean I know it’s a church and you guys are arguing on the different principles that they hold. One that they are celibate kinda like the Catholic church. I did not gather any other principles can some one please explain properly why this is such an issue?
i dnt knw what kind of grp or blog is this…bt i feel pity for d creator of dis bolg…….LITTLE N MORE KNOWLEDGE BOTH R DANGEROUS………n dis same thng happend here with dis person who hs commentd all d crap……..if u realy beliv what u wrote on ur blog is true…….dn dare to meet a pastor or ny of d servants of god from TPM………….n m sure dn u’l apologise for what u wrote abt god n his ppls r compltly wrong……….
aaahahahaha! You sure do have a way with words. Loving the rebellion. It’s not just the TPM, it’s all these “ooh i’m so wise old gray and male” preachy buggers who do nothing productive ever, and the silly female twits that follow…
And please, stop responding to these god bless you comments.
Dear Ed,
Everything I mention About Pastor Alwin is absolutely true. I don’t think there is any one alive today who was so close to Alwin, as I was. I was raised in the Faith homes. I am now 73 years old. I was in London England when Alwin was exposed. He was a false prophet, a dictator, who had absolute freedom to do anything he wanted. He cast a spell on the people, which is still being passed on to to the present leadership. People were so scared of him that they never questioned him or his personal revelations, for fear of expulsion from CPM. Only a man seduced by giving heed to seducing spirits, can come out with the twisted heratical teaching on Zion etc. My heart goes out to the millions who are misled and held captives by ‘Alwinism.’ The Top guys
dare not challenge Alwinism, because they are having it so good. They live like kings. We were starved beaten and sexually abused, as innocent kids beacuse of Alwinism!! Pastor Alwin was personally very kind to me. I am not mad at him. But I hate and will expose him and his diabolical doctrines. I even visited him and gave him some money in 1968, a few months before he passed away. He was a pathetic sight!
God’s judjment will come on those who promote ‘Alwinism.’ Just look at how some of the top men died.
DEAR NICK
The pentecostal mission, is a very Legalistic Fellowship. They are all over the world. In Canada and and the Us, most of the people who who fellowship with them, are from the east. Sri Lanka, India, and a few from other third world countries.
I was raised in TPM, it was formerly called Ceylon Pentecostal Mission. I was just a few months old when my parents joined in full time ministry. We were separated. Husbands wives and children were separated. This is a unwritten
requirement to be a minister with them, although it is not practiced all the time in the West and other places. They believe that marriage is a defilement. So if you are to be on Mount zion, with the 144,000 one has to be not defiled with women. This was a personal revelation of Pastor Alwin, who is no more. This
man was such a crook, who lived a double life with the help of top people who covered up for him in the church. He was very kind to me personally, but he beat the day lights out of of kids for being mischievous.
The workers in India and SL wear white, and live a very communal life, and live frugally. The top pastors live and eat like kings, while the junior workers,just survive on whatever they are given. They get no salary.
They believe in divine healing. Taking medicine is forbidden. People who took medicine were not to participate in Holy Communion.
Pastor Alwin, the man who had these revelations was excomunicated for gross immorality, and later died surrounded drunks, and questionable characters.
Please contact me if you need more information.
Samalan@inbox.com
Sam.
Pragati It seems you are content with what the TPM Pastors bully you about the WORD OF GOD and you don’t care to check the truth. BUT THE BIBLE TEACHES US THAT WE MUST SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES TO SEE WHAT THE PREACHER IS PREACHING IS TRUE IN LINE WITH GOD’S WORD (ACTS 17:11)
TPM is a cult and the Pastors preach and teach man made doctrines. On the outside everything looks very nice and holy. BUT the TRUTH is far from the WORD OF GOD. Please don’t get fooled with their white dress and believe every word taught by them or any one else. Always check with GOD’S WORD as taught in the BIBLE and then believe it.
may god bless you rachel…
at Nick Turner
Hi Nick
This church has the finest doctrines, but unfortunately the pastors and those who preach them hardly follow it truthfully
I am a third generation member of this church, currently not attending to any of their services. So, I bet if anyone can challenge me…
However, I also admit that there are quite a few men and women who live 100% true holy life as per the doctrines, but I doubt that would be hardly 5-10%.
All others are bloody hypocrites….
I am talking about both Believers and Workers….
I hope this is now clear with you…
Jacob
Praise the Lord Bro.Mattew God setteth you the Spirit of Besalayal in the homage of the Lords home (Tabernacle),I wish the God from the Most High Bless you and youre family from Zion,You get Eternal pastures in Jerusalem and you Comforted in Holy Cannan,
May the Father in Zion,Son in Jerusalem and Spirit in Cannan Bless the ministry that doneth by you and he blessed youre family as the family of Israel.
Bro.P.Spurgeon Jeba Kumar (Servant of God)
Rachel Chitra has not responded to any comments since Jul 25 2009, but I dont know why people still keep this blog alive by commenting on it???
Hi all
The Pentecostal Mission
The Pentecostal Mission (TPM) or New Testament Church (NTC) formerly known as Ceylon Pentecostal Mission (CPM), is a pentecostal denomination which originated in Ceylon, now Sri Lanka. The international headquarters is now situated in Chennai, Tamil Nadu, India. It is one of the largest Pentecostal denominations with around 7 million members worldwide in more than 65 nations.[citation needed] The mission was founded in Colombo, Sri Lanka in 1923 by a Hindu convert, Ramankutty – later known as Pastor Paul.[1][2] It now has churches (or Faith Homes) in many parts of Sri Lanka, as well as India, Nepal, Malaysia, Singapore, Hong Kong, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, USA, Europe, Africa, the Caribbean Islands and the Middle East.
Contents :
1 Church names
2 History
3 Church leadership
4 Doctrines and teachings
4.1 Basic doctrines
5 International conventions
6 Other activities
6.1 Service of song
6.2 Sunday school ministry
6.3 Magazine ministry
6.4 New Testament Christian Academy
6.5 Missions Education Fund (MEF)
6.6 Tract ministry
6.7 Publications
7 See also
8 References
9 External links
Church names
In other parts of the world, the church is known by the following names:
The Pentecostal Mission (TPM) – India (International HQ in Irumbuliyur Chennai, India)
New Testament Church (NTC) – United States (HQ in Newark, New Jersey)
Universal Pentecostal Church (UPC) – Great BritainHQ in Brixton, London)[3]
Ceylon Pentecostal Mission (CPM) – Sri Lanka (HQ in Mattakuliya, Srilanka)
Eglise de Pentecote Primitive – France
Grace New Covenant Pentecostal Church – Canada
New Testament Church – Trinidad & Tobago
Iglesia Communion Cristiana – Puerto Rico
Iglesia Communion Cristiana – Dominican Republic
New Testament Church – Sierra Leone
New Covenant Pentecostal Church – Australia
New Testament Church – New Zealand
New Testament Church– Papua New Guinea
New Testament Church – Nepal
New Covenant Pentecostal Church – Fiji
Iglesia del Nueva Testamento – Mexico
Iglesia Communion Cristiana – El Salvador
Iglesia Communion Cristiana – Costa Rica
New Testament Church – Kenya
Christliche Gnaden Gemeinde – Switzerland
Neue Testament Kirche – Germany
The Universal Pentecostal Church – Nigeria
Pentecostal Church of Malaysia
Pentecostal Church of Singapore
New Testament Church – Middle East (Dubai, UAE)
New Testament Pentecostal Mission – Uganda
New Covenant Pentecostal Church – Philippines
Universal Pentecostal Church – Hongkong
New Testament Mission – Cyprus
Deeper Truth Pentecostal Mission – Ghana
Iglesia Communion Cristiana – Colombia
Iglesia Del Nuevo Testamento – Democratic Republic of the Congo
Eglise Universelle De Pentecote Primitive – Republic of the Congo
New Testament Ministries – Malawi
New Covenant Mission – Tanzania
Eglise Pentecostiste Lagrace – Togo
New Testament Church – Abu Dhabi( UAE Capital City)
New Testament Church – Oman
New Testament Church – Bahrain
New Testament Church – Qatar
New Testament Church – Kuwait
Ny Testamente Menighed – Denmark
Universal Pentecostal Church – Republic Of Ireland
Chiesa del Nuovo Testamento – Italy
OTHER BRANCHES IN
Brazil
Ecuador
Zambia
Rwanda
Guinea
Zimbabwe
Cameroon
Mauritius
Jamaica
Seychelles
Haiti
Guadeloupe
Nicaragua
South Africa
Gambia
Ivory Coast
Honduras
Abu Dhabi
History
According to historian, Somarathna,[1] “The Ceylon Pentecostal Mission owes its origin to the ministry of Walter Clifford.” The church was founded by Pastor Paul along with Pastor Alwin R. de Alwis. Pastor Paul was born to Hindu parents in the district of Trichur in Kerala, India.[4] While in Sri Lanka, at the age of 18, he became a Christian. Later, he felt a strong call from the Lord for his life and began to preach and share the gospel in various parts of Kerala, Tamil Nadu and Sri Lanka. In the initial stages, he had worked with other evangelists. The CPM espoused an ascetic approach to spirituality. The church also instituted indigenous forms of worship.[5]
Church leadership
TPM worldwide is led by a Chief Pastor, who is usually appointed for life. Leadership is passed down after death to the next in seniority. The current chief pastor, Pastor Wilson Joseph.
In America most of the church work was pioneered by Late Don M Spiers who also worked with Oral Roberts ministries.
Doctrines and teachings
The doctrines of the church include: Trinity, New Birth, Water Baptism , Baptism of the Holy Spirit as evidenced by speaking in unknown tongues, Separation , Divine Healing, Entire Sanctification (of the Body, Soul and Spirit), Overcoming Life, Consecrated Ministry, Rapture, Tribulation and Great Tribulation, Resurrection, The Millennial Reign, The Great White Throne Judgement, and Eternity.
Basic doctrines
As per the church the doctrines are:
There is one God, eternally existent as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.
The Bible is God’s only inspired, written, Word to mankind – trustworthy, authoritative, and infallible.
The work of redemption by Jesus Christ – His virgin birth, atoning death, burial, and resurrection – is complete and prefect. Salvation (new birth) must be preceded by sincere repentance toward God and faith in Christ as risen Savior and Lord.
Water Baptism by immersion is mandatory for all who have been cleansed by the blood of Christ, and provides a further work of grace in the believer’s life. It must be administered by a spirit filled minister in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
The Baptism in the Holy Spirit, with the evidence of speaking in tongues, is the promise of the Father for all of His children. Only through the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit can the believer live a life of true holiness and victory over the flesh, the world, and the devil.
Jesus Christ is coming back soon for a “glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle”. Only those who are thus prepared, those who ardently love His appearing, will be caught up to reign with Him as His Bride.
There will be a resurrection of the just and the unjust – the one to eternal life, other to eternal damnation.
Further, in some parts of the world they do not encourage in wearing jewellery, makeup or pants for women, and encourage divine healing rather than depending on medicine. They discourage watching television or visiting the cinemas and listening to music that does not glorify God. They believe that their rules and regulations prevent the believer from being trapped in the world. They preach and teach separation from the world, to prepare themselves for the second coming of Jesus Christ.
International conventions
International conventions are held at Irumbuliyur in Chennai, India annually in March and April and at Kottarakara in Kerala, India in February. In 2010 it attracted over 150,000 worshippers.
In November an International Youth Camp is held at Irumbuliyur in Chennai. Admission is strictly for the youths only who have below 30 years of age and unmarried. If any young boy want to participate in the youth camp, he should obtain B-Form from his local church and apply well in advance though his local church. Nobody is allowed to participate directly.
The main USA convention is held in Ohio this year in July. The largest European convention is in London in the last week of August.
Other activities
Service of song
Ever since the inception of TPM Service of Song (Service rendered to God by singing – I chr 6: 31) has been given a high priority.
In the beginning, the songs were recorded in reel-to-reel audio tape recording and were distributed to the centre faithhomes alone for the sake of practicing the tunes.(Headquarters in an Administrative zone). But unfortunately many of these reels are not available for us to relish them.
Recording of the songs on cassettes came into vogue in the 1970s; many of these are still available.
Digital recording was introduced in 1998 (on cassettes only). In 1999 CD recording was introduced on a limited scale with mass production starting in 2000.
Live recording of parts of International Convention was introduced in 2003 and complete recordings from 2005.
The recordings never carry the names of the singers nor any speeches or prayers by them. The works, though copyrighted legally, can be used by anyone for the furtherance of the Word of God.
Songs were originally composed in five languages: Tamil, Telugu, Malayalam, Hindi and English. Recently songs are also released in other languages such as Kannada, Punjabi, Tulu, Bengali, Marathi etc.
All songs are recorded in the Mission’s recording theatre at Adyar and are a great attraction at the Annual International Conventions. New Songs are published every year at the international conventions
Sunday school ministry
“Train up a child in the way he should go” resounds the theme of the Sunday School Ministry aimed at bringing up children spiritually. Classes are held from Little Kingdom (a class for pre-schoolers) until the Year 11 class. A Senior Sunday Class is also conducted where the students can study for three years after completion of Year 11.
Each class has its own syllabus containing twenty lessons – ten from the Old Testament and ten from the New Testament (in most of the standards). Each lesson is accompanied by a moral and memory verse (except in some higher grades). The syllabus covers the entire Bible and the children become proficient in the Scriptures once they are through the Sunday school.
The Sunday School organization is unique in many ways. Notable among them are
The Teachers are selected not on the basis of their merit in terms of theological degrees, education or riches but based on their exemplary spiritual life.
The Teachers are not paid salary for the services rendered by them but rather, they are willing to spend and be spent in the ministry.
Though Children are imparted Scriptural Knowledge, utmost importance is given to moulding the character of the children and to make the children live the Word of God they study.
Examinations are held matching the standards of Government[which?] examinations right from the distribution of question papers, sending invigilators, timing, valuation etc.[citation needed] In addition to the exams, various competitions like Memory verse reciting, quick Bible reading, Singing etc. are conducted for the encouragement of the children and the performers are rewarded well.
Sunday Schools in the branches reach out to the children in the nearby areas, often providing them some form of assistance both spiritually and materially. Many families have been brought to the faith of the TPM by the Sunday School Ministry.
Magazine ministry
Magazines in several languages are printed and distributed to subscribers. The English magazine published from India is called Voice of Pentecost. Pilgrim’s Journal is published and printed in USA. Other English language magazines are: “Pentecostal Messenger” from Malaysia, “The Youth Herald” from Singapore, “Power Divine” from Sri Lanka, “Trumpet of the Lord” from the U.K.
Malayalam magazine PENTECOST is one of oldest Pentecostal magazines from Kerala. Hindi edition PENTECOST KI WANI published from New Delhi is also other landmark in the history of Church to spread the Gospel to northern part of India.
New Testament Christian Academy
In 2002 the church opened its New Testament Christian Academy in Sierra Leone. The children from the Congo Cross[clarification needed] and Wilberforce assemblies of this church attend the school.
[edit]Missions Education Fund (MEF)
Missions Education Fund (MEF) was founded in May 2007. MEF is 100% Christian Charitable Organisation that helps children from economic, social and physical poverty to receive education and enable them to become responsible , mature Christian adults. This sponsorship program is administered by Grace New Covenant Pentecostal Church Missions Education Fund and is managed by Volunteers. Today, MEF has helped over 483 children attend school in 15 countries including Sierra Leone, Togo, Congo, Ivory Coast, Ghana, Nigeria, Malawi, El Salvador, Dominican Republic, Jamaica, Papua New Guinea & etc. The MEF wish to expand this program to many other countries. The MEF currently have donors representing 10 different countries.
Tract ministry
Tracts of different kinds and various life issues (topics such as peace, salvation; questions about life and healings) are also published in different languages.
Publications
Many books are published in many languages by the church.
List of Chief Pastors of the Pentecostal Mission
The term Chief Pastors refers to the higher authority or a post given to pastors in the New Testament Church, commonly known as The Pentecostal Mission.
Contents
1 Current Leading Pastors
2 List of late Chief Pastors
3 Late Associate/ Deputy Chief Pastors
4 Late Senior/Center Pastors
5 Late Sisters
Current Leading Pastors
Pastor F. Wilson Joseph (Chief Pastor) 2006–present
Pastor Wesley Peter (Deputy Chief Pastor) 2006 – present
Pastor Stephen Natarajan (Associate Deputy Chief Pastor) 2011 – present
List of late Chief Pastors
Late Pastor Paul Ramankutty (Founder and Chief Pastor) 1923 – 1945
Late Pastor Alwin R. de Alwis 1945 – 1962
Late Pastor Freddy Paul 1962 – 1973
Late Pastor A. C. Thomas 1973 – 1976
Late Pastor Jacob Ratnasingham 1976 – 1990
Late Pastor V. G. Samuel 1990 – 1991
Late Pastor H. Ernest Paul 1991 – 1994
Late Pastor C. K. Lazarus 1994 – 1999
Late Pastor P. M. Thomas 1999 – 2001
Late Pastor T. U. Thomas 2001 – 2006
Late Associate/ Deputy Chief Pastors
Late Pastor C. John (Deputy Chief Pastor 1973-1977)
Late Pastor S.B. Earnest (Deputy Chief Pastor 1976-1987)
Late Pastor Philip Chandapillai (Associate Deputy Chief Pastor 1977-1984)
Late Pastor T. Geevarghese (Associate Deputy Chief Pastor 1984-1986)
Late Pastor Don M. Spiers (Associate Deputy Chief Pastor 1987-2004)
Late Pastor Joy Fitch (Associate Deputy Chief Pastor 2006-2011)
Late Senior/Center Pastors
Late Pastor Harry Paul
Late Pastor Samuel Paul
Late Pastor M. Daniel
Late Pastor P. Aruldoss
Late Pastor Benjamin Karunanandam
Late Pastor K.P. Koshy
Late Pastor K.T. Daniel
Late Pastor T.J. Daniel
Late Pastor A.G. Daniel
Late Pastor A.O. Oommen
Late Pastor C.H. Joseph
Late Pastor George Ranjitsingh Ponnuthurai
Late Pastor K.V. Paul
Late Pastor J.S. Manoharan
Late Pastor P. Philip
Late Pastor M.G. Abraham
Late Pastor K.C. Varghese
Late Pastor M.O. George
Late Pastor M.O. Paul
Late Pastor A.M. Samuel
Late Pastor John Esu Dasan
Late Pastor N.G. Thomas
Late Pastor M. Thomas
Late Pastor Samuel V. Thomas
Late Pastor T.V. Thomas
Late Pastor Y. Thomas
Late Pastor V.A. Johnson Muthlaly
Late Pastor Thankachan Markose
Late Pastor Bobby Gnanathickam
Late Pastor P.T. Kuruvilla
Late Pastor Podi Kunju
Late Pastor K.G. George
Late Pastor H.M.D. Lawrence
Late Pastor A. Jebamony
Late Pastor S. John
Late Pastor Leslie Bray
Late Pastor Gary Dant
Late Pastor K. Benjamin
Late Pastor P.S. Mathew
Late Pastor P.M. George Kutty
Late Pastor C.P. Daniel
Late Pastor K.K. Mathew
Late Pastor M. David
Late Pastor Paul Koshy
Late Pastor P. Selvam
Late Pastor P. Shadrach
Late Sisters
Late Sister Helen Paul
Late Sister Annamma Cherian
Late Sister Christy Rajamani
Late Sister Chellamma Chandapillai
Late Sister Baby Chandapillai
Late Sister Dorothy Bray
Late Sister Martha Lawritzen
Late Sister Nellie Boone
Late Sister Saramma Philip
Late Sister Grace Samuel
Late Sister Joyce Muthiah
Late Sister Alice Varghese
Late Sister Flory Mann
Late Sister Kunjamma Oommen
Late Sister Annie Benjamin
Late Sister Marykutty Varghese
Late sister Achamma Mathew
Late Sister Sosama Kurivilla
Late Sister Beckyama Kurivilla
Late Sister Elsiama Kurivilla
Late Sister Suma Kumari
Late Sister P.C.Mariamma
The Holy Bible says to test and prove all these things from your Bible rather than to make remarks.Jesus called His Church the little flock.
Three or four is enough for a Church.Satan the devil fears such little flocks.Those who protest not only TPM church will God almighty teach His ways in His Kingdom in this earth.
The evil in you doesnt allow you to see the truth..When your spirit is corrected your ears and heart will be opened to The Truth about God and the Holy Spirit..Your Spirit when corrected opens your Eyes to See God and His existance…all i can say is REPENT and ask The Creator to reveal Himself to you…I can see from this BLOG you are misinformed and confused..and you need to get the whole story from your gradma, aunt…there is sin involved and that is why u dont understand the Truth..which the TPM church teachs in its doctrines…make informed comments not half hearted statements to prove your discomfort in your spirit.
Even the devil can quote the scriptures for his benefit.. and am sure he can do it real well.. Rachel and Susan, jacob and others seem to be like that.
I’m a TPM beleiver who respects all anointed leaders in all churches as “saints” and even if they are not, I do not have the authority to judge them. God will judge the right and wrong.
There are many good saints of god all over the world, but I noticed that most TPM workers have ‘committed’ their lives for Christ and we need to appreciate that..not many people can do that even if they are ministers of God.
Their prayer life is another example. There may be issues and wrongs but God will weed them out..
Have you noticed how many people call TPM a Cult and what not..
Is dedicating your life to Christ a wrong?
Can you guarantee that doctors and medicines will definitely give you healing and life? (I take medicine because am not yet strong in faith, but I admire and aspire to beleive and hope in the lord for all my needs).
One man says that TPM bro in charge demanded for Tithe..In all my life, this is the ONLY church where there is NO demand for collection, tithe or lottery tickets..They teach us to give to the lord willingly.. many give. some dont..
Many have grieviances against TPM workers and believers, some of them very real and were hurt badly.. we need to pray for them too..God will deal with the wrong doers. Others just gnash their teeth and spread poison because they did not get their way..
If we pick on the faults of other churches compared to TPM, there may be many faults, but I will not do so.. because that means am spitting on my brothers and in the end we as christians will stink.. Whether you are a catholic, pentecostal or what ever
In all these, ensure that you look up to Christ your Lord and no one else..Crowing about TPM/ other pentecostal churches or doctrine or anything else will not help when Christ comes.
Dear Bro. Sam Alan,
I request u to read Revelation 14:1-5 Its the real and true consecration of saints of god regarding their ministry
1. Along with the lamb of god 1,44,000 were standing on Mt.Zion this shows that only those 1,44,000 are the inheritance of Mt.Zion. And standing with the Lamb shows the Life as like the lamb.
2.The name of the father and Son were written on their fore heads this reveals the character Of Son that is praying for others and the Love of the Father. Who has given his only unique son to redeem this whole earth.So the people at Zion should have these 2 characters mainly.
3.Those were the people not defiled by women.It reveals that one should not have married or not having any lusts of women.
Then in Isaiah its written There was laid a corner stone in Mt.Zion.It shows Christ as the corner stone so the building should be as like the corner stone. This is one of the reason why our saints in TPM have not married. Some saints start their race properly but the dont complete it victoriously.
In the book of Psalms its written “When the Lord Shall Build Up ZION and appear in his Glory”
Building up Zion is the death of 1,44,000 saints of God those who live a life as like Christ and these people are the stones of Mt.Zion.
And appearing in his glory shows the second coming of Lord Jesus Christ he has not yet come coz. The building work of Zion is not yet over that means from the lakhs and lakhs of priests saints and pastors not even 1,44,000 led a life as like Zion.
There are even many pastors in CPM who have not lead a life as Zion.
But there are some saints of God who lead a life as Zion in this earth.
And another aspect of Christ is he did his 3 years of ministry wholly and he did not work or do any other job during his period of ministry thats the same done by our pastors in these days.They do full time ministry with the help of the Holy Spirit.
Sister Rachel.
I can understand that u was a member of this church As u said its true that many saints are not up to the mark in their ministry.Even among the disciples of Jesus there was a Judas so we cant say that All the disciples are bad as like that there may be a few in this denomination.So u cant accuse the whole denomination.
May God Bless U all.
Thank you.
By : Member Of Christs church.
on January 20, 2011 at 9:14 am jlkm
Dear Pastor,
According to Bible one can give divorce if it is an adultery issue. But after divorce (adultery found in partner) , is it good to go for second marriage? can you clear me this doubt as my friend got divorce because her partner was caught in adultery. And she is staying with her parents. Kinsly pray for her
According to the Bible regarding divorce kindly read the below verse
Matt- 19.9
Rom -7:2,3
I corinthians-7:39(Request you to read the whole chapter of 7)
Praise the Lord
WHOM EVER HERE MAY BE SPEAKING BAD ABOUT JESUS/TPM/ANYTHING….ONE THING I WOULD LIKE TO TELL. HE IS A GOD OF LOVE,AND BY HIS MERCY YOU ARE STILL STANDING. AS WELL HE IS A GOD OF ANGER,WRATH AND RUTHLESSNESS. DONT GET SUCCUMBED TO HIS ANGER.. I DONT MIND WHO YOU ARE AND WHAT YOU DO. I MIND ONETHING IN MY MIND-JESUS IS STILL ALIVE AND HE IS GOING TO COME SOON. THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT IS NEAR.. AND JUDGEMENT IS HIS AND IT IS NO WAY RELATED TO US.DONT JUDGE TPM/OTHER MINISTRIES..JESUS WILL FOR SURE JUDGE YOU AND WILL ASK ONE DAY ARE YOU CLEAN.????? WHAT IS YOUR ANSWER TO THAT ????
FOR YOUR DOUBTS YOU CAN MAIL ME..bright.d.livingstone@gmail.com
http://www.facebook.com/brightlivingston
It is to whoever has started this blog. Firstly i think that u r out of ur mind. Secondly please show me a church which has no culprit, hypocite in it. u r altogether a son or daughter of bitch. when u point one finger to other remember that three fingers are pointing towards you. never blame others as though u r very perfect. merely idiot. what do u know about TPM and its doctrines. A swine doesnt know the value of diamonds. there is nobody perfect or born perfect in this world. all are trying to grow to the perfectness.
charles
Rom 8:11 by faith ur mortal body has to be resurrected.Pastor Smith Wiggles worth of England has raised 14 dead person by prayer.How many Doctors did that?Every word of God has power if we emphasize them properly like peter we too can experiance them Act.5:15.Math 14:36.Jesus did 37 miracles while he was on the earth, Elija 6 and Elisha 20.When haughtiness comes in spirituality God’s power can’t work out,Many churches make the workers as God.Do u have a real shepherd who carry the sheep on his shoulder?Isiah 40:11.God revealed the mistries only to consecrated Apostals Ephesians 3:5, & 2:19-22.,Rev 14.4.
Dont be decieved. Its a satans angel who has started this blog and you are all being a part of it
Dont Spread about the sins of the Pentecostal Mission Saints and Out of the Pentecostal Mission Saints Coz we are not the Judge Only through the Grace of Father,Love of Son,Help of Spirit we are there to exist or other wise Devil will Swallow all the Acusers ………………..
The eye of Brilliant is on his Face !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Any Saints in TPM Does not have dominion over Pastor Alwin includes Pastor Paul and his Childrens Freddy Paul,Harry Paul,Sam Paul,Dorah Paul and Helen Paul they are all ways Under the Custody of Dear Pastor Alwin including Pastor Paul the Founder of it Coz in ACA Mission Founder and His Family are allways under the Domminion of Pastor M.K.Sam Sundaram Coz he is Chief Shepherd for Whole ACA Mission,asper same carear and Character Pastor Alwin too have same type of Dominion so dont poop the Administratoral and Departmental Statergiational imposement on the illused fanactications So Even Pastors Paul must Be Under the Control of Late Pastor Alwin So try to Know What is What ? Which in Which ? How to How ? So Educate ure self is needed to Stops the Bloughing Poops………
Jesus is comming stop acuse each other and makes you perfect,bro sam please keep mind on youre life dont poke youre self in the life of dear pastor alwin,pastor sundaram and pastor sam sundaram teach a good lesson the eye of intellectual is on his face try to go to heaven not the hell………….
CHURCHES IN THE LAST DAYS ARE CALLED GREY. WHERE YOU CANNOT FIND PERFECTION BUT IT IS RUNNING TOWARDS IT. GOD IS COMING FOR A PERFECT CHURCH. THAT DOES NOT MEAN OTHER PEOPLE ARE LEFT OUT. AND MRS. CHITRA YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT SERVANTS OF GOD AS WELL AS PILLARS OF HEAVEN. YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO JUDGE.
Allways Under the Guidence of Father the God
Allways Under the Presence of Son the God
Allways Under the Power of Spirit the God
Slide on Grace ,then no hinterances will strike the Life of Saint…..No saint died for you ,but look upon the trinity God then youre SOUL,BODY,SPIRIT,Will secure under the Grace
MARANTHA……
The Words of Great mens :
Apostle G.Sundaram- Others may do but you not (Finding fault)
Shepherd M.K.Sam Sundaram -Unforming the fellowship is Devils Workstation (Finishing fault)
Dont find fault and finishing faults on Others Grace is More better than Law we too calleth up by Grace………………….
Is any one Doesnt have sin accuse Pastor Alwin (Chief Shepherd of Ceylon Pentecostal Mission @ The Pentecostal Mission) not only Pastor Alwin and Other Saint in this World……………………..Judgement day is near…….Shiver before the Grace………………..
Ed,
Eveyr thing I blogged about TPM is nothing but absolute truth.
How can TPM boast when They have a trust fund, with probably billions of ruppes, in India, and millions in the west. The sad part is that ‘Alwinism’ is still flourishing, and accepted as ‘DEEPER REVELATIONS’ revealed only to the consecrated, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of God.
Is it any wonder that Alwin was kicked out of TPM,CPM for his acts of adultery? Alwin was seduced by seducing spirits. HE WAS UNDER THE SPELL OF SEDUCING SPIRITS, WHICH HE PASSED ON TO HIS SENIOR PASTORS, WHO CONTROLLED AND BRAINWASHED THE INNOCENT WORKERS, WHO KNEW NOTHING ABOUT THE SCRIPTURES.
I thank God for delivering me from CPM, TPM, in his mercy, by his grace.
Is Jesus Comes today (or) If you face death today do you have guit to face the God(Trinity) Dont accuse the Pastor Alwin he forms a very big Organisation (Ceylon Pentecostal Mission @ The Pentecostal Mission)in the Formating Sanctuary of Pastor A.G.Thomas Paul ,So God doesnt Like us to Accuse in the Life of Pastor Alwin ,What a unthankful Persons that Accuse this Saint….Pastor Paul is Heart of Pentecostal Mission but Pastor Alwin is Lung of Pentecostal Mission So every one mind ure way before Scripture of God…….Thank you
THE GREAT WHITE JUDGEMENTIVE THRONE OF GOD IS NEAR !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hi Rachelchitra,
Stumbled on this blog while looking for CPM history.
Glad you are questioning the existence of God. Used to be there myself. Maybe you should think along the following lines:
1) If things exist by survival of the fittest and natural selection, wouldn’t everything just be a rock? What does the first amoeba benefit by reproducing/multiplying itself? Does an amoeba has a strong desire to leave a legacy behind? What causes its death? Certainly not the same random chance that caused it to come alive! Why does an animal go through the traumatic process of gestation, birthing and nurturing of its young when it is completely exposed to danger in the whole process? Wouldn’t it be more apt to survive if it was footloose and fancy free?
2) If organisms developed by random mutation, wouldn’t they develop into more simpler forms with each “progression”? Why would they “mutate” into more complex forms that require larger amounts of energy for sustaining life?
3) The mathematical probability of a change in a SINGLE trait, is in the region of 1 in 10 to the power of 24 (or something like that). Mathematically possible, but is it really a reasonable probability that an animal today exists via such a colossal improbability?
These were the thoughts that moved me to search for the truth about God which led me to throw my lot with this Jesus who claimed to be sent by GOD. Maybe it may not be relevant to everyone.
Do check out my blog here:
http://vildness.blogspot.com/2011/08/blue-eyed-cutie.html#more
So do keep your heart open, Rachel. Who knows……….
Regarding CPM/TPM
Sam Alan,
You seem to have all bases covered. I recently had a show-down with a fervent CPM-ian (I don’t call them Christ-ian) in Malaysia, who warned me that I will miss the rapture because I was not purifying myself with the teachings of the “consecrated servants of god” in CPM. I attend the Methodist Church (though they also have a bunch of unScriptural teachings & practices)
The reason for the to-and-fro arguments and the muruku-twisting of Scripture by CPM is simply this: They regard the words of the “consecrated servants of god” as equal in divine authority to the words of Jesus himself. But this is a common attitude among many “christians” who consider the Bible as a source of “supporting scripture” in any controversy. They believe that EVERY SINGLE WORD in the Bible is the INFALLIBLE Word of God – until they start interpreting and referring to various translations and Greek and what not of course.
But I believe that anything or anyone that takes the focus away from the words of Christ (who ALONE is the Annointed One of GOD) is not of GOD but is of the spirit of the antichrist. I advocate that ALL verses in the Bible must be seen against the words of Jesus Christ. If any statement by anyone in the Bible – be he prophet, king or apostle – is seen to be in variance with the grain of Jesus’ words, than those statements must be either interpreted to be in-line with Jesus’ words or be deemed to contextualy irrelevant.
The disciples at one time told Jesus, “You ALONE have the words of life.” Are we as christians willing to say this too?
CPM teaches bodily sanctification in addition to spiritual sanctification. That is why they discourage jewellery and such. Sure they will quote some verse or other, but Jesus said, out of the HEART proceeds all evil.
They think that being celibate is equal to being undefiled. But they ignore Jesus’ teaching that, although the Law says you should not murder or commit adultery (bodily), but if you have hated or lusted even in your HEART, you have already sinned (spiritually).
They created a “divine healing” dogma on the basis that, Jehova is our healer so we should not go to man for healing. But they don’t seem to be aware that Jehova is also our Provider, so why do they get their daily bread from the roti bhai instead of waiting for “divine provisions”? Jehova is also our Fortress, why then do they lock up their faith homes at night with locks and bolts?
Yes Sam, inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument indeed.
If CPM claims to follow all the “true” teachings of the Bible, I would like to know who is their bishop and deacon, as Paul estabilshed? Oh no, they will never ordain a bishop or deacon because then they will have to submit to the “husband of one wife” and “having children under strict upbringing” rule, you see! So only their founder Paul was correct in this. After Alwin, it was only celibate “Pastors” and to hell with Scripture! (By the way very few believers and workers know the history of CPM. that’s why they practically worship their pastors.)
People who do not know the GOD of the Bible are DOOMED to fall for all the lies and delusions that will be the hallmark of spirit of the antichrist in these last days. Let us who know the Lord be ready for his coming.
Check out this “Last Days” sermon.
Regards
DEAR RACHEL
I am from Sri Lanka. I am proud that the Lord brought me to this truth, which you deny, through the CPM which is the TPM in India.
We have to be like the People of Berea who came to a decision on any thing only after finding the Truth From the Bible. It clearly says that “you will find the TRUTH and the TRUTH shall set you FREE.
One of the TV Channels here says like this, “WE REPORT AND YOU DECIDE” I remember someone asking me a question like this, “what is the deference between an essay and a comprehension ? and I did not know the answer. But the guy was smart enough to open my eyes giving an answer like this – A comprehension is written about what the others say or collected information BUT an essay means “THIS IS WHAT I SAY”.
Rachel, I think your parents are Christians – your name says that. Rachael in the Bible believed in the living God. You may go ahead with your writing but please change your name first.
If not for Jesus Christ I would have not been second to you. I accepted Him as my personal Saviour when I was 19 and now I am 63. I am one of His witnesses – I am not dead without taking medicine for the last 44 years – I don’t follow Jesus just because some one says but the word of God is true Exodus 15:26 @I am the Lord that healeth thee”, may be many are half baked but remember we are on the alter not only for getting baked but to become ashes.
DON’T DARE TO USE YOUR PRECIOUS PEN TO WRITE UNWANTED AND UNNECESSARY WORDINGS. He loves you. He who died for you. Pray and ask pardon from the Lord. He is faithful to forgive you. He can make you write about Him. You are not so bad as Saul who became St.Paul to write so many epistles. We are not disturbed, but we are only worried about you.
I know that you are not far from His love. Our prayers are with you
Hi, all of you preaching the same thing, but the people who are not following either christianity or hinduism or other religion. Because they are keeping their original religion in certificates and following christianity to get benefits of Govt.of India. They are cheating the people around them, cheating their gods neither hindu/muslims nor christians, cheating the govt. by giving wrong declaration. They are not at all obeying any muslim law/hindu law or christian law. Mere sake of conversion, they thought that they are superior. It is true.
Rachel Chitra:
TPM preachings are 100% right. Please read bible and be led by the holy sprit if you are in God’s ministry. WOMEN PASTORS are not according to bible. If you are a women pastor better quit and do some other work.
Prince
hiu
Hey Rachel, being an atheist no worth in speaking against Christianity or TPM.
since being an journalist dont be over smart enough to allege christian life. Jus think how God has made you to born in an christian family, were many people in this world are perishing with out knowing true God. If you die today jus think for a second were your life after death be? God is still loving you.
agree every bit of it. TPMission should be renamed TPMockery.
If any one doesnt have sin on them,they can accuse any saint in the dareness of self righteousness,if it is not please shut the illusion and hold the Grace…………..
God given Apostles of National India.
Apostle G.Sundaram
Apostle A.G.Thomas Paul
Apostle S.P.Daniel
Apostle K.E.Abhraham
Apostle J.John Rose
Apostle P.Jacob
Apostle Ponnuraj
Apostle Henry Joseph
Apostle D.Rajendran
Apostle Y.P.Yohanan
Apostle Jesudhass
Apostle Benjamin Gnanadurai
And ETC…………From Various Missions……
God given his apostles to Transform nation India as Heaven ,but not to Creat the Hell So Cautious in sight of God……
நேற்று (18/03/012) ஞாயிற்றுக்கிழமை சர்ச் முடிந்து வெளிவரும்போது, சர்ச் வாசலில் ஒருவர் தன் கையில் வைத்து நோட்டீஸ் வினியோகித்துக்கொண்டிருந்தார். வாகனத்தில் வரும் அவசரத்தில் நீட்டப்பட்ட ஒன்றை கையில் வாங்கிவிட்டு அவசரமாக வீடு வந்துவிட்டேன். நோட்டீஸை வாசித்துப்பார்த்தேன்,மார்த்தாண்டம் பகுதியில் ஒரு குறிப்பிட்ட ஹாலில் ஒவ்வொரு ஞாயிறும் குறிப்பிட்ட நேரத்தில் இலவச வேதாகம வகுப்புகள் நடக்க இருக்கிறது எனவும் குறிப்பிடப்பட்டிருந்தது. வேத பாடங்கள் என்ற தலைப்பில் (நரகம், தேவன் தீமையை அனுமதிப்பது ஏன், ஸ்திரீயின் வித்து, திரித்துவம், தசமபாகம், காணிக்க் போன்ற) சுமார் 50 விதமான பாடங்கள் பார்த்ததும் பதைபதைத்து திரும்ப ஓடிச்சென்று அவரை தேடினேன். நான்கு பேராக இரு பைக்கில் கிளம்பிக்கொண்டிருந்தார்கள். அவர்களிடம் சென்று நீங்கள் எதை போதிக்கப்போகிறீர்கள் என்று கேட்டதற்கு மிகவும் மரியாதையாக வந்து கேட்கச் சொன்னார்கள். அப்படி என்னதான் கூறப்போகிறீர்கள், பொதுவான கிறிஸ்தவ விசுவாசத்திற்கு விரோதமாக ஏதாவது கூறப்போகிறீர்களா என கேட்டதற்கு, இது மனுஷரால் உண்டானதானால் அழிந்துபோகும், தேவனால் உண்டானதானால் இதை தடுக்க உங்களால் முடியாது என கூறினார்கள். அவர்களுக்கு 2000 வருடமாக எங்கள் நம்பிக்கையை அழிக்க யாராலும் முடியவில்லை என்பதிலிருந்தே எங்கள் விசுவாசம் தேவனால் உண்டானதென்று விளங்குகிறது இதில் இன்று நீங்கள் கொண்டுவரும் நூதங்கள் என்ன பாதிப்பை ஏற்படுத்திவிடப்போகிறது என மட்டுமே என்னால் கேட்க முடிந்தது.
இவர்கள் கடந்த இரு வாரங்களாக ஒவ்வொரு கிறிஸ்தவ சபைகளின் வாசல்களில் நின்று நோட்டீஸ் கொடுப்பதை வழக்கமாக கொண்டுள்ளனர். வேறு எங்கும் நோட்டீஸ் வினியோகித்ததை பார்க்க முடியவில்லை. காரணம் சபைகளுக்கு செல்கிற கிறிஸ்தவர்கள் மட்டுமே இவர்கள் இலக்கு.
இவர்கள் கொள்கை என்னவென்றால், எந்த மனிதரும் நரகம் செல்லப்போவதில்லை, எல்லோருக்கும் மீட்பு உண்டு, அது ஹிட்லர் ஆனாலும் சரி, யூதாஸ் ஆனாலும் சரி, சாத்தானுக்கு மட்டுமே அழிவு (அதுவும் நரக ஆக்கினை என்பது நித்தியமானது அல்ல என்பது), இயேசுவின் ஈடுபலி (ஈடுபலி..???) எல்லோரையும் அழிவிலிருந்து விடுவிக்கும் (விசுவாசிப்போரையும், விசுவாசிக்காதோரையும்), உலகில் உள்ள கிறிஸ்தவ சபைகள் மாத்திரம் பாபிலோனிய வேசி சபை, சரீர மரணமே இறுதியானது, ஆத்துமா என்பது இல்லை, (ஆனால் உயிர்தெழுதல் மட்டும் உண்டு: ஆத்துமா இல்லாமல் எப்படி உயிர்த்தெழுதலோ) இயேசு மிகாவேல் தூதனின் அவதாரம், அதனால் இயேசுவை தெய்வமாக ஆராதிக்கக்கூடாது இப்படி சில கொள்கைகள்.
சரி, இவர்கள் சொல்வதுபடி பார்த்தால் எல்லோரும் இரட்சிக்கப்படுவர்களே, உலகில் உள்ள துன்மார்கர் அனைவரும் இரட்சிக்கப்படும் வாய்ப்பு இருக்கிறபோது, கிறிஸ்தவ சபைகளுக்கு செல்பவர்களுக்கும் அந்த வாய்ப்பு கிடைக்குமே. எந்த வேதமும் வாசிக்காவிட்டாலும், ஜெபிக்காவிட்டாலும், ஆண்டவரை மறுதலித்தாலும், மற்றும் என்னதான் செய்தாலும் மரித்தபின் இரட்சிப்பு உறுதியாகிவிடுகிறதே, பின் எதற்காக இவர்கள் மட்டும் வேத ஆராய்ச்சி செய்கிறார்கள், மற்றவர்களுக்கும் கற்றுக் கொடுக்கிறார்கள். இலவசமாய் கற்றுக்கொடுக்க இவர்களுக்கு எங்கிருந்து பணம் வருகிறது…?? எதற்காக இவர்கள் தங்கள் நேரத்தை செலவு செய்யவேண்டும், எதற்காக ஒவ்வொரு சபை வாசலாக அலையவேண்டும், எதுவுமே தேவையில்லையே…!
இவர்கள் கிறிஸ்தவ ஆலயங்களுக்கு செல்பவர்களை மாத்திரம் குறிவைத்து பிடிக்க முயல்வதின் நோக்கம் என்ன…? ஆண்டவருக்கு பயந்து சபைகளுக்கு செல்பவர்களை, நரக ஆக்கினைக்கு பயந்து ஒழுங்காக வாழ முயல்பவர்களை அந்த தெய்வ பயத்திலிருந்து விலகவைப்பதனால் இவர்களுக்கு இலாபம் என்ன…?
இவர்கள் கொள்கைப்படி எப்படி வாழ்ந்தாலும் தண்டனையில்லையே, அப்படியானால் கிறிஸ்தவர்கள் அவர்கள் இருக்கிற பிரகாரம் இருந்துவிட்டு போகட்டுமே, இவர்களுக்கு என்ன வந்தது…? இவர்கள் கொள்கைகள் சரியாக இருந்தாலும் எந்த பாதிப்பும் இல்லையே…!!
ஒருவேளை இவர்கள் சொல்வது தவறாக இருந்து முடிவில் நரகம், ஆக்கினை என்பதெல்லாம் உண்மையாகவே இருந்துவிட்டால் என்ன செய்வது, இவர்கள், பயத்துடன் கர்த்தரை சேவிக்கச் சென்றவர்களையும் வழிதவறவைத்து அவர்களையும் இவர்களோடு நரக ஆக்கினைக்கல்லவா பங்காளிகளாக்குகிறார்கள்…! எப்படியாயினும் இவர்கள் செய்வது சரியல்ல…! இவர்களை இனம் கண்டு ஒவ்வொரு கிறிஸ்தவரும் இவர்களிடமிருந்து விலகியிருக்கும்படி கேட்டுக்கொள்கிறேன்.
I Got the information from mine relations which as I posted the Schocking News(in tamil fonts),instead of finiding faults on sins of saints please dont find faults allways, try to prepare youre self to meet our Comming King Jesus and take part in Heaven…………
Do you know what is the time now to inspire up rapture 11 : 59 : 59 Just one friction of moment to congress with our bride groom Jesus Christ of Our Lord ,So Stop all the non-sence work and Start all the sencefull work………
Oh Ecclessia.Oh Ecclesssia,Oh Ecclessia Hearen thou Ear unto Scripture End is in the Moment……. The Time of Ecclessia is around few yrs…..so stop puncturing work and start punctualing work …bye….bye…bye…..bye….in the sweet bye and bye we shall meet on the Beautifull Shore………!
Hi Rachel,
Seeing your blog for the first time. Felt the write up on TPM was more of a critique. Things that have tickled your faith and beliefs. Apparently, they are unjust and vague to you. But aren’t their good things in them too? If they say medicines are a taboo can it not be taken as a decision to depend on divine healing absolutely? And abstinence from luxury too? Difference of perspectives. I don’t justify or accept TPM and its belief system fully but still let critique be constructive. Wish to be a regular reader of your blogs in the future. May your investment of time be for the furtherance of His kingdom and be a blessing to God’s people.
Blessings to you and your family.
If any one really Love Truth and Obey the Truth and wants to participate in the Comming forth Rapture,Stop accusing others and Make youre way perfect before the Lord God………………………….so God hates those that have pride But God Loves those they have humility…….so we are not God to Judge/Grudge upon Others……………
hi there,
Its really interesting and nice to learn how different religions operate. Please carry out with your arguments guys. I’ve always seen too many arguments and clashes between these christians. Keep it up guys. Fight with one another, if u get to know other guys kill them. United we fall divided we stand. Leave all these things and convert to islam, u guys all can earn. Well done , keep it up.
It was a good time in this site. Thanks for you arguments.,
the reason the tpm ministers dont marry is because the bible says to forsake everything and follow the lamb whithersoever he goes but its not wrong to be married and there are ministers who are married
Dear Rachel
very explicit ,exact description of the doctrines and dogmas of CPM which are not relevant for the present day. They preach and don,t follow.In the name of divine healing the followers and pastors lives are put at risk
A.sivan
Hi, Might be a good Post for you, But If you Love Jesus who died for you before we were even born in Sin you will definitely Regret Of this Post.
Its not the Church Or Religion which gets you to Heaven. Its the Purity!!
May God Bless you.
can you please tell me how could CPM changed in to TPM
i need answer
your church getting money like a water where public money used ,eudaction poor people shulter are food , were it was used
if u r not a christian ,not a beliver, r u a fool to put this article.oniy a true TPM BELIVER knows the truth.may god forgive u.
Awesome post.
This design is spectacular! You obviously know how to keep a reader amused.
Between your wit and your videos, I was almost moved to start my own blog
(well, almost…HaHa!) Fantastic job. I really enjoyed what you had to say, and more than that, how you
presented it. Too cool!|
It’s interesting to read a lot of these comments and the zeal that both sides have for their respective positions.
For each person who bothered to comment, there must be hundreds or even thousands more who merely read it and moved on.
I’m a member of The Pentecostal Mission, born into a “TPM family”, raised according to its culture/doctrine, spent some time “away from the presence of God” and then slowly came back to it.
I still struggle to live up to the doctrines that I have heard over the years.
A few things I would like to comment:
1. No pastor of TPM will ever say that the doctrines preached therein are the only way to salvation or the kingdom of God. In fact, I have personally heard our chief pastors stand up in public and ask people to honestly ask God to lead them. They have encouraged people to go where the Spirit leads them.
2. If you do not believe in God, then this whole post was a total waste of time. The very fact that the blogger spent time writing this post, moderating and then responding to comments means that somewhere deep inside that person, the spirit of God still exists.
3. The white apparel of the ministers of TPM is based on the concepts of living a simple life that is dedicated to spreading the gospel. Things that we all take for granted actually work towards corrupting our souls – looks, appearances and perceptions. We are all concerned about how we look, how we appear and what people perceive us to be. TPM ministers do not care about any of these.
4. Divine healing is a choice that people make. If you are able to bear the pains of sickness and truly believe that God will heal you, then either you will be healed or die a martyr. The former strengthens your faith and the latter assures you a place in eternity. (I’m happy to be corrected if this is wrong)
5. Not a single person who has read this blog post or commented on it can claim to have authoritative knowledge of what really happened or is happening in a faith home anywhere in the world. So, please do not pretend to know who did what, when, where, why and how. The reasons for Pastor Alwin de Alwis’ departure are known to a select few ministers and that group is a shrinking one.
6. TPM does not promote the virtues of any one person, but rather that all glory and honor belong to our Lord Jesus Christ. You will never find a communique from TPM that mentions the name of a Pastor or Elder or brother. Unlike other churches where meetings and conventions focus on the speaker(s), TPM never does this. TPM ministers are never glorified in life and definitely not in their death. There were and are a great many minsters in the TPM church who possess the gift of healing, prophesy, discernment and prayer. But, they are never promoted as such. Members of the church (believers) may do so, but that is merely because as human beings we feel the need to exalt and glorify something physical.
8. Jewelry is something that is discouraged, but there are believers who choose to wear it. At the end of the day, it is all a matter of personal choice.
9. With regards to land, buildings and money, not a single minister takes anything with him/her. It is all given to their seniors for the purpose of the ministry.
10. TPM ministers will never come to you and ask you for money. There have been a few instances where this rule has been transgressed and those have been reprimanded.
11. Obedience is one of the foundational doctrines of the church and its one of the reasons for the discipline and harmony within the ministry. Regardless of age or seniority, all brothers, sisters, elders and pastors will all obey their senior and ultimately the chief pastor.
12. There is not democratic election mechanism for the role of pastor, centre pastor or those of the chief pastors. The headquarters has a record of all those who are in the ministry and their term of service. In due course, according to the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the the wisdom from God, minsters are designated as elders, pastors and so forth. Our chief pastor Wilson Joseph and deputy chief pastor Wesley Peter are both younger than and may have fewer years of service than several other pastors in the ministry. Yet, they were ordained in that position by the guidance given to their predecessors through prayer.
13. TPM minsters will never argue with you about right and wrong. Their job is to share with you the gospel they have received.
I request to all my fellow believers to stop arguing, but rather pray for Rachel and Susan.
To Rachel and Susan, i invite you to go to the faith home nearest to you and seek your answers.
I did say I will return, and I have returned. Just returned from Sri Lanka, and
India. Attended three Sunday services. One India, Kellys, Chennai and two
In Sri Lanka.
It broke my heart broke when I saw thousands seduced and blinded by ‘Alwinism.’
People believing, sincerely of course. So do the Hindus,. Buddhists, and Jehovah wittiness.
Let keep blogging.
Jesus himself acknowledged that the scornful will grow in stature and will challenge the truth until the day of reckoning. Hence there is nothing surprising in reading articles like yours. But there is a group of people who have become enuchs for christ’s work. That is the reason why TPM has a world wide presence. I was a Jacobite before being attracted by the truth preached. I have been to many countries and has seen a multitude of people comprising of many races and sects worshipping in spirit and truth, a trait I never saw in other pentecostal churches. No matter what you say or try to establish will not prosper against true disciples. It will flourish in the midst of any trials by Grace of God. I hope you will try to find real truth and happiness.
you better remove this post and repent, else you face death
Hi Rachel,
What are you trying to prove here.. Why do you have to post this/ any topic for the matter.. Don’t you have any other thing to do???
Jesus precious Name Greetings!
Dear Sister of/in Him, Greetings!
Happened to read your post today. Just one note! Though I am not a member of this great Church of our Jesus, I always thankful to God for the blessed pastors and beloved sisters/mothers whom I met and speak with. TPM Church is truly a great blessing in my life right from my childhood
Though I am not a member of this Church of Him, i have received valuable prayers, support from blessed pastors of this Church. I love Saturday Morning fasting Prayer, Evening Tarry meeting and Sunday worship. I have participated Bible Study a few times only. Precious Holy Spirit of God is leading the Church in a unique way. I have learned the Faith walking from the blessed pastors/brothers.
Dear Sister, you may still have some negative eye on this blessed member of His Body! However as a brother in/of Him, as in His one family, I wish and pray, Our Jesus (our First Brother) will heal our hearts and make us an instrument of His aroma. Come on, Cheer up in Him! Thanks for quoting your heart out for His Blessed Church. But at the same time, let is always cling on our thoughts towards our soon coming Groom(Jesus).
Note: if we see with our human eyes, we may can find faults in all the Churches. I understand, when we see gaps in His Fold, our hearts will cry. Let us urge our self to take it all our feelings to Christ, who can set right His precious Member, clean and pure for His Glorious Coming!
Jesus Loves you much, Cheers
Paul
TPM is the richest organization…Yearly turn over of TPM is in billions … conventation turn over is around a billion last year…… prediction is that gold deposit in TPM is greater than tirupathi temple.. Since 75% of the TPM believers give all their jewels worth some lakhs or crores to TPM minsitry.
They forbid marriage and according to their teaching when a husband and wife come together in marriage it is a sin, newly married couple cannot take part in communion immediately after the marriage since they have committed sin when they come together in family relationship.
1 timothy 4:1-4
1But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,2by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,3men who forbid marriage … who believe and know the truth.
As per above Their doctrine demonic.
u are right tpm is no good and you also forgot to mention that pastors and sisters are held as saints ,many people from these church believe this crap
Unfortunately all the hate preachings here have no effect at all to TPM since they preach the truth and refuse to water it down to appease the faggots who try to deface it. Enjoy the club environments at the churches you have shifted to and stay with the same old community members where TPM enjoys the fellowships of people from a multitude of countries and races. To ridicule a consecrated servant is abomination at the minimum. If they do things against the will of God, it is them with God. Also it is an open secret that some other sects of Indian pentecosts do not like TPM because of their following and teachings. So go away with your lies and false propaganda
You are sooo blind.
Thanks to Wilson for reminding me that I am blind and praise God that you are not. Enjoy your wisdom while you can
Oh I forgot to mention the reference. Matthew 15:14
Aptly said about people like wilson who happened to be one of the blinds and already in the pit by virtue of his wisdom. Anyhow I am relegating your further insights into its deserved place i.e. the junk folder.
He he. Funny to read.
It’s true that a man and woman are equal before God. At the same time they cannot consider themselves equal before each other.
This post has been written by a feminist about whom John Piper says “They have gone past the line to destroy every difference in the roles of man and woman” 🙂
If you don’t like it well stay away from the church. The church chastens and exhorts its believers. Not strangers. As a father rebukes his child. Our saints are our spiritual fathers. We love them 🙂
what ever it is Jesus Christ is wonderful & loves us all. 🙂
And I believe many of you will testify the same in this Blog. AMEN
Beloved Brothers and sisters – in. Christ, I have gone through the comments. I would like to meet you all those who love TPM and accuse TPM.. God has given me the answer to all the questions and doubts raised. Let us not argue with logic, interpretations, outward appearances, Let us find through the word of God, what is true and what is false. Know the truth the truth shall set you free. One who preaches should preach according to the word of God. Unless one fights according to the rule, he will not be crowned. Our fight should be a good fight.- should be according to the word of God.Let us not accuse any preacher, any church, any pastor, any believer. My people are perished out of ignorance.They may be ignorant, they may be babes Christ. Let us know what the scripture says about the Ministry, Apostles, Priesthood ,thihe, divine healing, zion, New Jerusalem New Heaven, New earth, the book of life, the rapture, the judgement.Then finally let the Holy Ghost speak to us which is right and whch is wrong – Christian believer
Wow i am surprised to see this site with so many bitter comments against TPM ministers and ministries. Jesus is real and his word is true. Bible does not evangelization through arguements and no one is bought to God through arguments or vain talks but only Holy spirit can bring people to God. So lets not bite each other. The doctrines upheld in TPM are definitely strict and may seem crazy to some but if you examine the world of God with a pure heart as seekers of truth then you will find that they confirm to the word of God. Of course some practices may have crept in due to human interpretation but please give praise where its due.Concerning divine healing – bible clearly says that by”Jesus’s striped we are healed and there are many thousands who cling to this faith and are healed or enjoying divine health all their life on this earth , don’t pin point to some who died standing for divine healing to prove its wrong… our medical science with all the modern equipments still has a place called Morgue …. why?? Everyone born has an appointed time to die. May God fill your hearts with respect and love for each other.
Hey Rached get a life. May be thats what missing. To the ignoramus(Godloves) who says TPM ministers forbid to marry??? Hey i think you are high on something when u are blogging. or missed out some sentences in between. The next time make sure you are sober before you spew out your venom.
And to the crackpot(Sam alan) what a dope your are? You have to go to kellys and sri lanka to prove? You already know within you, you are going to find something you want to lie about. So you spend money and time on that?
If you don’t like a particular church leave. There r churches in almost all cities in India or wherever else you are griping from. A church for every taste,style,language,culture etc. Why belly ache about one particular church? Why so much animosity against one particular group? Uh? May be they are saying/preaching something that you really hate or cant live by, is that it?
The truth is the truth. Don’t like the message why kill the messenger? There are many who struggle to live the truth in TPM that doesn’t mean they should change the truth the truth should change you.
Sorry i have to call people names. But again i am not so sorry but thats how i felt when i read some comments that i know its not true. If you are in person in front of me i would give you a smack and give you a hug because you obviously have some interest in God. I do agree there are some practices by (some) ministers that are questionable but those are far and few and most of them don’t continue for long. Not every body in TPM are saints. There are some bad apples but you can’t castigate the whole church. I am sure the ones in authority will deal with each issues as they come to light.
Try to live by the truth as its revealed to you as best you can by the grace of God. If TPM is not your cup of tea hey some find something else that tickles you ear. You are free to choose. I hope you are not in China! or some other despotic state.
Oh by the way Rachel, congratulations, you succeeded in your efforts. I know you are not interested in TPM/CPM or anyother M’s. You really don’t care what you write as long as you get under peoples skin. Bravo!! You got my blood pressure up!! Now let me go take a pill!!!
Jesus Love Never Fails.
Yes i do believe that most of your points are constructive criticism , My dad is a part of this , what do i do to get him to know what he is into?
And one more thing i’d like to share is my insights on the zion and the heaven stuff. The TPM have some sort of a picture of a structure that looks like a pyramid and the say that there are many divisions of heaven there like new heaven , new earth , old earth and so on , what is contradicting to this is that the satanic groups also have a similar sturcture that represents their group , it is found in the US Dollar as well. Can somebody please explain this to me.
tpm members believe not taking medicines will make their faith strong but i say taking medicines is no problem it is not related to faith. as tpm believer you can love christ by taking medicines too .when you refer mathew 9 :12 jesus himself says they that be whole need not a physician but they that are sick
Alice
Hi,
I am back after a few years, just like I promised ‘I shall return.’
Yes I have returned to denounce ‘Alwinism’ as practiced and defended by the present TPM world wide.
What is ‘Alwinism?’ They are the doctrines which Pastor Alwin R de Alwis
co founder of CPM with Pastor Paul. Pastor Paul was a sincere simple man
with hardly any education. I knew him personally. He was a good man.
All he knew was, believe on the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved. He also believed very strongly, that we should live by faith. Unfortunately ‘The just shall live by faith’ was confined to food clothing and shelter.
My parents joined CPM when I was an infant. I was in CPM not by choice.
A victim of circumstance. .I had my basic education in a CPM school in Sri Lanka, this was nothing but a glorified institution of, severe child abuse. We were starved as innocent children. We were supposed to live by ‘Faith’
while Pastor Alwin was eating like a king (he had food before him day and night) flying around the world, establishing ‘Faith homes,’ and spreading ‘Doctrines of Demons,,’ and his diabolical personal revelations. Zion, and those undefiled by women, were the only ones qualified to get there. Marriage to Pastor Alwin was not holy and undefiled, as St Paul said. In which case Pastor Paul the founder of CPM, will not be in Zion, because at least one of his children, Harry was born in CPM!!! So, what did Alwin think of marriage? Let me put it in his own words” The man putting his thing into the woman’s”!!!!!!!! I am now seventy five years old, and he told this to me while I was a teenager!
Multitudes of sincere people, believers, think that TPM has the greatest revelations. Pastor Alwin deceived us by saying that these were great revelations given only to the servants of God, who have given up everything to follow the Lord.
Pastor Alwin also had a revelation that Mussolini will be the Anti-Christ. People who heard thiin during the big conventions got filled in the spirit and even spoke in tongues in their excitement. He was a false prophet, who surrounded himself with power hungry sincere, senior pastors, who were sincerely misled, and scared of expulsion from the church.
I was Pastor Alwin’s blue eyed boy. He was very kind to me. He sent me to London, England , when I was only twenty one years old. I was in London when Pastor SB Ernest exposed Pastor Alwin . It was a like a bolt from the blues. It was a surprise to many, but not to me. I had my doubts about him all the time. As a teenager I used to wonder why he spent such a long time in the sisters training quarters in Mattakuliya. Sri Lanka. Who was I to question the chief Pastor, when there were a lot of Pastors ans senior sisters aiding and abetting him? There were lots of young sisters specially hand selected by
Alwin. Now we know why. If the sisters came out with what was going on, and Alwin denied it, who do you think people would have believed?
I am the only one left who knew and moved with Pastor Alwin, and I want to destroy the myth surrounding Alwin. He was nothing but a false prophet, and a wolf in sheep’s clothing.
Here’s a bit of news for those who think that TPM is growing in USA, and Canada. More than ninety percent of the people in the churches here are made up of people from the East. Sri, Lanka, India Malaysia and so on.
White Americans and Canadians have rejected TPM for its erroneous doctrines, legalism, and narrow mindedness.
Will continue later. I shall return.
The heart of the problem is the problem of the heart & the problem is in the solution.Pride goes before destruction.
pray 4 me IM SUFFERING SO MANY PROBLEMS IN MY LIFE UR PRAY IS VERY BIG IN MY LIFE nd pray 4 my husband he is going 2 Doha last week 4 job but some problems there now he will come back but i knw this is devil hand that’s y pls pray 4 him and my mother ,nd brother also suffering so many problems pls pray 4 my family problems family problems im also pentecostal believer in Delhi god will help our family problems pls pray
One good friend in my life am sharing everything but now he is also go faraway .i don’t know why? he is Hindu family but he is come to my church but now he is not coming 2 church. He is god believing person he is alone in Christian in his home pls pray for my friend pls pray 4 him because he will come back 2 church, his family also come to believing god .he is not my friend, he is my small child also please pray he is not go far away in my life because he is very good god believing & truthful person in my life. that’s why am sharing everything .pls pray for my friend
thanks
Looking back, reading this blog was one of the first things I did that would later take me down the road of a long research that eventually took me out of the TPM church. So thank you, Rachel.
I was a 4th generation TPM believer, attending the same church for more than 20 years. I would say I was naive to the history of the very church I was attending, more so because of all the secrecy. Its been over 7 months I left the TPM church. In the end it came down to the way this church treats other christians as the main reason for my exit. I just cannot stand the “we are superior to you. Oh poor you, you are missing so much by not attending the TPM church” attitude.
I’m glad you are out of the “TPM” clutches. Any doctrine that seeks at curbing/controlling people is very unhealthy! Also hate the preachy-preachy attitude some people show! I would say a little more kindness and a little less judging would go a long way in helping ppl
Dear All,
Children of God should not be wasting their time looking at a church or its traditions. The time is at hand for the coming of our Lord Jesus to gather his saints and I would say let us redeem the time and walk wisely without pointing fingers at anyone . Let the Holy spirit lead you – how and where to worship him. I am in Canada and have attended a lot of TPM churches in India and Middle East and several other Pentecostal churches too and I have discovered that the doctrines preached in TPM are the best, there is order for everything. And revelations the servants of God provide there, will help you in your faith journey IF YOU WILL NOT LOOK AT THE FAILURES AND SHORTCOMINGS of HUMANS. Apostle Paul himself says that we should heed the doctrines preached and look on what they actually practice. Its hard I know but that is indeed an advice we have to be careful about. There is only ONE whose ways you can follow and that is JESUS none else is perfect.
Dear Shiny, This is not a Blog to request for prayers at all. But let me tell you that even if all your friends go away there is a friend who is always with you till the very end – that is Jesus.He knows whats happening to you and will work everything together for good. Just relax and trust in your heavenly father. HE WILL NEVER LEAVE YOU NOR FORSAKE YOU and he knows your troubles well as he went through them all. Remember Jesus loves you and is always with you. He is our greatest gift from God.
Part – 1
Before reading any further, please know that I am a TPM Believer. The questions that I have raised here are not for any defamation, but it is important that people know to discern the truth from the hypocrisy.
The Key Problem with TPM Assemblies can be summed up in 2 words.
SUPERIORITY COMPLEX.
Usually people accept superiority complexes (remember, God does not accept it), if they have some actions to prove it. However, the sad story is that, TPM actions do not prove it. Anybody blowing his or her own trumpet is not generally appreciated.
Some points for all TPMers to mull are as follows.
Fact: TPM workers have an exalted ego that they are much better than many other Christian workers and their own believers because they are doing unmarried ministry. The usual claim is that, they are “Consecrated servants of God”.
Biblical standard: How should the Leader of the church (Including TPM Workers) be?
“It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant (Matthew 20:26)
“Nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock;” (1 Peter 5:3)
Does the TPM worker in your assembly follow the above principles OR are they ordering you to do this and that?
How many times have they come to serve you? Please bear in mind that SERVING does not mean PREACHING and SINGING. How many times have they made the poor of the assembly do work for them on the pretext of getting blessings from God for their sacrifice of Love? How many times have you heard them blackmailing their folks to do their bidding failing which, the Lord will be unhappy?
Jesus never preached what he did not practice.
Some types of Serving: Matt 25:35-36
For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’
Before I expect it to be done by someone, its important that I check myself on that. I don’t do that quite often. But anytime, I get an opportunity, I do it. I do not make any claim that I am a great person in the Kingdom of God. Rather, I think the ethics and teachings of Christ are quite tough to follow by any human. If you do not have the guidance of the Spirit of God, you are bound to fail.
I have heard TPM Centre Pastors saying that such type of Ministries are not what we are called for. There are other churches and charitable organizations, which do it, so they need not do it. Where exactly in the scripture has Jesus liberated them from such a responsibility?
To GodLoves
“TPM is the richest organization…Yearly turn over of TPM is in billions … conventation turn over is around a billion last year…… prediction is that gold deposit in TPM is greater than tirupathi temple.. Since 75% of the TPM believers give all their jewels worth some lakhs or crores to TPM minsitry.”
Do you have authority to comment on the exact amount of money collected at the conventions and the gold deposits?
“They forbid marriage and according to their teaching when a husband and wife come together in marriage it is a sin, newly married couple cannot take part in communion immediately after the marriage since they have committed sin when they come together in family relationship.”\
Rubbish! Who said this? Which Pastor or Elder has forbade a married couple from partaking in communion?
To Gurunath
“Unfortunately all the hate preachings here have no effect at all to TPM since they preach the truth and refuse to water it down to appease the faggots who try to deface it.”
As a child of God, please refrain from using inappropriate and derogatory language against other people. I think your zeal is getting the better of you.
To David Barlock
“TPM WORKERS AND PASTORS ARE EXPECTED TO LIVE A CELIBATE LIFE… THEY MAY ACCEPT A MARRIED COUPLE INTO THE MINISTRY (IN THE USA) BUT THEY ARE EXPECTED TO SEPARATE AND LIVE AS CELIBATES (IT IS NOT “FORCED” BUT “STRICTLY ENCOURAGED”) THOSE WHO CONTINUE LIVING AS MARRIED ARE PLACED IN INSIGNIFICANT PLACES AND MADE TO FEEL AS THOUGH THEY ARE NOT FULFILLING THE “HIGHEST CALLING” OF CELIBACY.”
How can you call any place “insignificant” if the work of God is being done there?
This sounds more like human ego than anything to do with calling.
So what if you were placed in a small village? Is your calling so much more holy and precious than others that you should be placed in a major city?
“THERE ARE A NUMBER OF WORKERS / PASTORS IN THE USA BRANCH OF THE TPM TODAY WHO WERE MARRIED AND ARE NOW LIVING SEPARATELY…. CARLAND WRIGHT…. BOB AND MARG WHITEWAY — MOST SADLY GARY DANT AND CLABE RAY WHO WERE BOTH MARRIED AND DIED VERY YOUNG BELIEVING IN DIVINE HEALING… THEIR WIDOWS ARE STILL WITH TPM … I WOULD BE INTERESTED IN KNOWING HOW THEY ARE BEING CARED FOR AND WHAT IS THEIR FUNCTION IN THE MINISTRY THAT THEY SACRIFICED SO DEARLY FOR.”
I don’t believe the widows of the departed brothers are complaining.
In any case, brother David, you shouldn’t worry about them as Jesus will take care of them.
“I am married — my ministry has grown significantly since I left TPM…”
Sounds like you left the ministry because you WANTED to get married.
To Bro Wilson
“Fact: TPM workers have an exalted ego that they are much better than many other Christian workers and their own believers because they are doing unmarried ministry. The usual claim is that, they are “Consecrated servants of God”.”
ANOTHER FACT: They ARE “consecrated servants of God”. You have a problem with that?
“Biblical standard: How should the Leader of the church (Including TPM Workers) be?
“It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant (Matthew 20:26)
“Nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock;” (1 Peter 5:3)
Does the TPM worker in your assembly follow the above principles OR are they ordering you to do this and that?”
This is not for you or me to judge, but almighty God. So, don’t worry about that. The church belongs to the Lord and he will take care of it. You and I should worry about our own salvation.
How many times have they come to serve you? Please bear in mind that SERVING does not mean PREACHING and SINGING. How many times have they made the poor of the assembly do work for them on the pretext of getting blessings from God for their sacrifice of Love? How many times have you heard them blackmailing their folks to do their bidding failing which, the Lord will be unhappy?
SERVING does not mean PREACHING and SINGING ONLY!
Serving also means
– Rising at dawn to pray for every person in that congregation.
– Fasting and praying for you and me and ours.
– Denying themselves all worldly comforts of fashionable clothing, money, property, family life, children, medicine, etc.
– Living by faith, not knowing where they will be sent to work and with whom.
Jesus never preached what he did not practice.
Some types of Serving: Matt 25:35-36
For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’
And… they do all of this. When did you go to a faith home and were not offered something to eat/drink? When did you go in as a stranger and were not invited in? When did you go in naked and were not clothed? When were you sick and they did not pray for you? When were you in prison and they did not counsel you?
I have heard TPM Centre Pastors saying that such type of Ministries are not what we are called for. There are other churches and charitable organizations, which do it, so they need not do it. Where exactly in the scripture has Jesus liberated them from such a responsibility?
Rightly so, if there are other organizations looking after the earthly needs of the poor and sick, then it leaves the “consecrated servants of God” to cater to their spiritual needs.
My own thoughts:
Celibacy: the problem is that none of you seem to get that while celibacy was promoted in order to “free” the man/woman from the earthly bonds of family which will distract him/her from his/her ministry.
A married person has to contend with the issues of marriage, family, children, education, money, clothing, food, shelter, etc.
An unmarried celibate man has none of those worries.
With regards to earlier pastors being married while in the ministry, the time was such when entire families joined the ministry.
An example would be Pastor Philip Chandapillai and his sisters – all of whom served and died serving the Lord.
I have heard it from the highest authority that Pastor Manoharan was the only one who was allowed to get married after joining the ministry.
This was the decision taken by Pastor Freddy Paul at the time according to his wisdom.
Because of this, we were able to enjoy the word of God from Pastor Manoharan till a few years ago.
If you feel they made a mistake or went against their own teachings, then it’s a matter between them and God.
The problem with all of you is that your minds are so closed and narrow.
You all seem to be in lands where there is freedom. Use it.
Be free to follow the faith and doctrine that “appeals” to you.
If you want a church that gives importance to people, then please feel free to go there.
The problem with all of us is that we want to have our say and voice in everything.
The TPM is God’s ministry and as he has said in Isaiah 42:8, “I am the Lord; that is My name. And My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise to graven images.”
If his servants err, like everybody else, let them repent and ask pardon from the Lord.
Sister Rachel – if you disagreed with the TPM church, you are most welcome to satisfy your spiritual needs elsewhere.
But, it is un-Christian to create this blog post to incite the murmurings of others, especially against a group of individuals who seek to serve God.
Right or wrong – it is their cross to bear.
Let’s give ALL glory and honour to God almighty who has enabled us to come together.
A N Other,…are you a TPM preacher or believer or their online attorney / defense blogger?
Anyway you’re a nuthugger, since you cannot offer a discussion of points from either side of the coin, one that strongly believes in God as the Bible describes and the TPM religion conveys but a nuthugger none-the-less
It is so funny that you simply disregard the body of their other peoples comments and harp back on the things that irk you to defend TPM’s honor.
“How can you call any place “insignificant” if the work of God is being done there?
This sounds more like human ego than anything to do with calling.
So what if you were placed in a small village? Is your calling so much more holy and precious than others that you should be placed in a major city?”
LOL…so you just totally glazed over the fact that the commenter was raising the fact that no-where in the Bible does it condone celibacy, nor does it say anywhere in the pages of the Holy Bible which you seem to ascribe to highly, that Preachers, Pastors, etc are to unmarried / celibate.
The fact that the commenter stated that because married people have become TPM ministers they had been slighted by being given less of a ministry…your response and defense is “Its their calling”.
“Calling” is ascribed by God to man for the place or path or way or walk of life said man should follow.
“Calling” is NOT the place or path or way of walk of life that is given by one man to other Men (i could care less if they are the senior most minister because they are still a Man’s words/orders/suggestions)
At the end of the day you are fine with blindly believing the words of a Man/Men who are part of a certain/specific belief rather than use your brain (that you would strongly claim is God given) to examine, research, seek the true meaning. You simply say to hell with my “God given brain…when God gave me preachers to do the thinking for me why bother using it”.
You’re like the Homer Simpson of Christians, of which there are millions (so don’t think you’re special just cause I called you that). Most Anyone that ascribes to any of the various religious teachings would rather their head was filled with candy than the capacity to think for themselves as all major religions have proved around the world and for centuries that their followers will do the craziest things, say the craziest things, and defend their institution more than what their God or their Holy Scriptures had ever enclosed to mankind.
Mistakes are not a matter between them and your God.
Jesus took the form of a Man and behaved like a man and followed the laws and customs of his country, culture, family, etc. Do you disagree??
Yet when the people turned the temple into a shop and exchanging money, Jesus threw em all out and went all “Hulk SMASH” on them.
He didn’t just sit back and say it was for between them and God so I will just pray for them.
When wrong is done, it is to be pointed out and brought to peoples attention. If you believe so much in “Calling”…maybe “God” revealed it to that person as it was their “Calling” to do something about it.
‘A little girl is getting raped next door, poor girl and evil rapist, I will just pray for them that God will deliver her and God will send a divine intervention to stop the rapist.’ Good way to live life isn’t it….oblivious to everything (it’s not my problem).
All I gotta say is “Check yourself before you wreck yourself”. And take that seriously…you seem to preach back a lot without knowing your own scriptures and blindly calling out people and taking things completely out of context.
This attitude might not take you very far but you believe in a “Holy afterlife”…and if you think that attitude will take you there…well then it’d definitely not a “Holy afterlife”.
Dear Bro A N Other,
You seem to have been offended but not bothered to address the topic in its true sense.
1. Consecreated Servants of God : Anybody who consecrates any thing for God is a matter between God and that person. It is not a matter to be boasted before others. Moreover, you do not use this “Consecration” to put down others. Certainly when you are dealing with other Christian ministers, a true servant of God is not expected to be showing this air of arrogance. You like it or not, I see that very much.
2. Church Belongs to the Lord: Agree. But do not assume that “CHURCH” is TPM. TPM is just an organization like other institutional churches with its own doctrines claiming superiority.
You need to understand that “The First shall be last and the last first”.
3. Serving: I was highlighting a different aspect but You have mentioned a 4 point action done by them. I appreciate that. However, we are expected to be the SALT of the earth. The Salt is useless unless it is mixed with the food (get into the world). If it remains in the salt shaker (faith home monastery environment), it will not be of any use. BTW, as of now most of the TPM believers have lost the art of close communication and fellowship with the Lord because they OUTSOURCE all of their need to the Pastor and sisters. I am saying this not to condemn anybody but because I am pained by the situation in real life church. We call God our “Heavenly Father”. Clearly each one of us is expected to have a one-on-one relationship and not a step child relationship with the heavenly father. What a relationship you have if you have to ask a sibling to talk to your father on your behalf. TPM believers needs to STOP SUCKING THE THUMB and GROW UP.
4. You very conveniently ducked the issue of REAL SERVING by saying that If I go to the faith home, I will be getting food, water, clothes etc. But is that not true of yourself also, if somebody comes to your home in desperate need?
I am talking about going out into the WORLD and being a LIGHT and SALT as a MINISTRY by SERVING The UNDER PRIVILEGED. He that has ear, Let him HEAR.
Dear TPM Zealots
Today I over heard a conversation, in which a very religious man inquired about the denomination of some family friends. Upon hearing that they were a different denomination than him, he remarked that he was going to have to “work on them.” In other words, he suggested that his denomination was somehow superior, and he was going to have to “convert” them.
My stomach turned as all of this was being spoken. I couldn’t help but think..why can’t loving like Jesus be enough? Why can’t He be enough?
Why do we feel that we must change everyone? Inviting someone to church or changing something that you don’t like about them, is not the same as unconditionally loving them. Indoctrinating your beliefs in them isn’t the same thing as sharing good news.
I have found, and if you are honest with yourself, you will also discover – that with almost every theological debate – one side is protecting, preserving, and feverishly promoting the whole “us and them” separation thing.
Just step back, take another look… yep, there it is… the exclusive, join-us-over-here-or-suffer-the-consequences club.
To Wilson, Sniper and everybody else:
May God enlighten all of us.
If celibacy is not your thing, go ahead and get married.
if you want to serve the Lord, ask him to guide you.
If you don’t like TPM’s doctrine, you know where the door is.
We’ll pray for you and for ourselves.
You have a choice – free will given to you by the creator.
Nobody is forcing you to accept TPM or any other denomination or doctrine.
Let all the delegates coming to the Intenational convention in Chennai this year, go and clean the streets of Chennai and care for the sick lying on the streets. Show the love of God in action. Feed the poor on the streets, wash their wounds, and help them. Share your faith in Christ. This will have a greater impact , than preaching to the spiritualy ovre fed.
Be a’ good Samaritian’.
● A Biblical Christian is one who is able to worship God at any time and in any place and that doing so, he infuriates organized religionists. John 4:23-24; Luke 22:1-2
● A Biblical Christian obeys the scriptures to “test all things” and “prove the spirits” even though they are mocked and ridiculed from the pulpit, and labeled “Pharisees;” even though they are called “divisive,” “un-submissive,” having a “proud, haughty spirit.” 1 Thess. 5:21; 1 John 4:1
● A Biblical Christian is someone who stands up to carnal-minded church leaders and refuses to have them tamper with their marriage and family. Matthew 19:6
● A Biblical Christian is one who knows where the wolves are. They know there’re in the pulpits. Matthew 7:22-23
● A Biblical Christian does not choose to serve their spiritual bullies in the pulpit, thinking all the while they are serving their Lord. No rather they expose them. Gal. 2:11; 1 Timothy 1:19; 2 Timothy 2:17; 2 Timothy 4:10; 2 Timothy 4:14; 3 John 9; Jude 11
● A Biblical Christian is one who puts their family after God; not their “pastor.” Ephesians 5:22ff
● A Biblical Christian is bought with a price, the precious blood of Jesus. They do not become slaves of men and of human institutions. Slaves of Christ, Yes! Slaves of men, institutions, or religious systems, No! 1 Cor. 7:23
● A Biblical Christian sees that the Jewish system of appointing certain ones to perform priestly duties has been done away with; that the work of Christ on the cross has rent the veil providing every believer free access to the Father (Matthew 27:51; Hebrews 10:20); that in Christ all believers are priests and have the responsibility to function as priests. 1 Peter 2:5-9
● A Biblical Christian does not believe it is rebellion to question the teachings and practices of the pastors and churches. 1 John 4:1; 1 Thess. 5:21; 1 Cor. 14:29; 2 Tim. 3:5; Titus 3:10; 2 Cor. 6:17
● A Biblical Christian is free to follow their heart in giving to whomever they desire as God prospers them. 2 Cor. 9:7
● A Biblical Christian knows that it is not in any building made with hands that the Father is worshiped. Acts 7:48
● A Biblical Christian knows that many pulpits are occupied by masters of deceit, hiding under the guise of an angel of light. 2 Cor. 11:13-15
● A Biblical Christian does not corrupt the necessary love within a family and succumb to the false teaching that so-called “church authorities” outside the family know best. Ephesians 5:22ff; Matthew 19:6
● A Biblical Christian is one who is free to fellowship with people from denominations they once were taught were ungodly and unworthy of their company. Matthew 23:8
● A Biblical Christian has nothing to fear by probing, discussion, debating, and searching for Truth. Only orthodoxy is threatened by such exercise. A Biblical Christian knows that the promise still stands that knowing the truth will set us free. John 8:32
● A Biblical Christian is one who does not passively sit in pews and observe the ministry of a select and highly privileged few. Romans 12 &1 Cor.12-14
● A Biblical Christian is fully aware and on guard knowing that spiritual wolves wear suits and ties or holy uniform, look good, sound good, and appear to be “godly” in public. Mark 13:22
● A Biblical Christian is one who will stand up for their family and spouse and say “NO” to the home-wrecking pastors who are usurping and seeking to steal, kill, and destroy. Matthew 7:15ff
● A Biblical Christian knows that their “local pastor” has no more spiritual authority over them than does the town dog catcher. 1 Cor. 11:3
● A Biblical Christian will not tolerate a “church leader” micromanaging every detail of their life. 1 Cor 7:23
● A Biblical Christian is one who doesn’t follow the false teaching that states that group obedience to the elders in all things is from God. 1 John 4:1
● A Biblical Christian is one who does not worship in a place where only one side of a question is “allowed” to be taught. Psalm 1:1-2
● A Biblical Christian is not dumbed down to the level of not being able to think, reason or discern for themselves. Romans 12:2
● A Biblical Christian does not believe that the foundation of life is their local church. John 14:6
●A Biblical Christian’s “conscience is not bound to care for their pastors.” 2 Tim. 3:13
● A Biblical Christian knows that God does not move exclusively on Sunday morning at twenty minutes past eleven, following three choruses and two minutes of singing. His Spirit is everywhere, all the time. John 4:24
● Biblical Christians are not “dumb sheep.” Matthew 7:14
● A Biblical Christian learns that the praise of God is not intended to be a spectator sport relegated to weekends only, but the pouring out of one’s own heart to their Creator day after day. Acts 2:46; Acts 5:42
● A Biblical Christian is one who has been called out by God into His royal Assembly, His family; called out, not only from among the world, but also even the RELIGIOUS world! 2 Cor. 6:17
● A Biblical Christian will not play the role of “God” in the lives of others. 1 Cor. 8:6
● A Biblical Christian will not give their devotion and mind to men, a movement, or a local institutional system. Romans 12:2; 1 Cor. 3:19
● A Biblical Christian does not acquiesce to unquestioned, uncritical agreement and allegiance to a human leader. Acts 17:10-11
● A Biblical Christian does not believe:
-Salvation is founded upon going to church; -Truth is only understood by pastors; -Church authoritarianism and hierarchy are ordained by Jesus Christ; -Institutional churches are what Jesus died on the cross to establish; -Giving of your tithes and offerings will make you prosper; -The pastors words are inspired by the Holy Spirit and are infallible; -Modern day “pastors” and “preachers” are “God’s generals”; -Jesus Christ speaks to us only through “professionally” trained preachers; -The clergy dressed in their fine business suits are “holy men.” 2 Tim. 3:1-7
● A Biblical Christian will know that their religion is not predicated on the notion, “We must listen to a Sunday sermon.” 1 Cor. 2:5
● A Biblical Christian never leaves all the research and thinking to the pastors, but researches issues and will think for themselves. Acts 17:11; 1 John 4:1
● A Biblical Christian is one who knows that there is no man whose word has power over another; that no one has the right in God’s kingdom to “lord it over them” (exercise authority). Jesus has spoken and said “NOT SO!” Matthew 20:25-26
● A Biblical Christian will never view the words of their supposed “spiritual overseers” as the words of God. 1 Cor. 2:1; Acts 10:26
● A Biblical Christian is someone who was not aware of how spiritually dead they really were UNTIL they come out of the graveyards in which they worship! 2 Cor 6:16-17
● A Biblical Christian does not think that Sunday church attendance is the definition and/or sign of being a Christian Col. 2:16-17
Dear A N Other,
As far as TPM is concerned, you have just as much authority as I have. So please do not teach me the way to the door. It is as close to you as it is to me.
As a Christian I would like to say that some of the doctrines you think are the most full-proof, the most foundational even, will come tumbling down at some point, and replaced with a clearer, more divine understanding. The first time this happens it is shocking. The second it is still shocking, but at least not as unexpected. After a while, you start expecting it as part of the faith journey.
Doctrine is the interpretation of man. Popular doctrine is the interpretation of very powerful men, meaning church/denominational leaders who in essence demand people to accept their doctrines or leave, using the fear of exclusion to keep people agreeing with their doctrines.
This is sad, but it’s been happening for centuries, but don’t let the pressure and doctrines of other men/women override the Spirit of Christ in you, your teacher, as you move forward in your faith. Let him teach you. Allow yourself to learn new things from him, even when you favorite preachers are saying the opposite.
A rule of thumb that the Apostle Paul gave us when talking about only knowing ‘in part’ was to remember what we have right here, right now. That is, faith, hope and love. And he particularly drew attention to love, reminding us this is the greatest of all.
While on the journey of faith, seeking and discovering new ‘parts’ of the puzzle of the gospel truth, keep your heart centered on the reality of love. For in the end, doctrines will fade away, but love will remain forever.
I stumbled upon this blog yesterday and was thrilled to find others speaking out against TPM/NTC. I cannot speak for what goes on in the East (since I was a faith home child state-side), but this organization is most definitely full of pompous, brainwashed hypocrites. Having lived inside the faith home (commune) since the age of 10, I am rightly justified in my statement. Members/Believers of this church cannot possibly comprehend the level of absolute tyranny to which we children were subjected. Because of this, Sam Alan, you have my deepest sympathies. Life was truly hell and I believe you 100%.
To this day, we faith-home “siblings” who entered in the ministry together with our parents continue to be a close-knit group. We consider ourselves survivors who have broken out of that cult in order to become successful people. NTC tears families apart. From the beginning, men and women are separated and are made to live in barracks style housing. Personal possessions, to include college funds, were “consecrated” and given away. We children hardly saw our parents in the training center, and were often supervised by young, surly workers. Morning prayers were mandatory, and if we overslept we were severely beaten.
Anything that wasn’t church-related was taboo. Every aspect of our life was regulated: we couldn’t have secular friends, secular music, secular literature, medication, jewelry etc.. Television was the devil. I’m pretty sure that the only films we were authorized to watch were those from the dreadful “Left Behind” series. In the church-run Christian Schools we were frequently mistreated and beaten. Our parents, although they meant well, never intervened because they were ignorant and blindly trusted our incompetent faculty. It’s no wonder that loneliness, depression, and utter hopelessness was something we battled even long after we left the “fold”. If one of us didn’t adhere to church practices, we were considered rebels and were often interrogated and were encouraged to betray one another.
When I was 14 years old during a Saturday night prayer meeting, I looked around at all the people in a trance –like state babbling in tongues and lost in their religious practice. It’s as if I had an epiphany! I thought, “These people are completely out of touch with reality! I have to get out of this.” My strategy was simple: If I did really well in school, and got scholarship to a far off university I could get out of this. I achieved my goal by studying day and night, and compensated my lack of secular education by reading books from the library (which I would have to hide).
Leaving was hard, don’t get me wrong. I lost many friends and people who became part of my “family”. I was formally excommunicated, which in actuality didn’t hurt me, but only further strained the relationship I had with my mother who was still in the ministry. Starting over was much better though. I most definitely credit my experience within NTC with forcing me to exercise tolerance and serenity. I choose not to waste my time with bitterness.
There are a handful of NTC ministers who are great people, who strive to serve others, and are really beautiful souls. However, the majority of them get lost in the hierarchy and status they achieve after years of service. Some of these self-righteous, heartless individuals include: Pas. Michael Thomas, Sis. Lisa Billow, Idaway Lee, and Gehan Sinatamby just to name a few. For your TPM/NTC believers who disagree and choose to live in ignorance, go ahead. You never lived with them nor were you subjected to their cruelty.
God Bless.
Christian spiritual journey is compared to the 40 years wilderness journey the children of Israel had from Egypt to their promised land Canaan.
Wilderness journey is not a comfortable journey. But most of the children of Israel searched for comforts in their wilderness journey. That’s why only 2 persons from the 6 lakhs men (including women it would be minimum 12 lakhs) who started from Egypt were able to enter into the Promised Land. The children whom the people complained that they would perish in the wilderness, God made them to enter when their parents perished in the wilderness.
Most of the Christians and even TPM believers are like those Israelites. They don’t realize that they are on a spiritual journey. They don’t realize they are in the wilderness. They want to enjoy the world like the worldly people.
Apart from being in the wilderness (which means not enjoying the pleasures the world gives), another characteristics the journey of the children of Israel had was faith life. For their very survival they had to exercise faith on God. They God their daily food through faith on God. They got their healing through faith on God. They won their battles through faith on God.
With these thoughts consider the teachings of the TPM.
I had commented on this blog way back in June 2010 (17 June). I feel the spiritual journey God had helped me to travel between these years (2010 to 2014) has been tremendous. I would have travelled more had I pleased God more than I had pleased.
The understanding I have now is that to know more about God, living a sinless life is alone not enough. Apart from that we have to live a sacrificial life and a life of faith. Living such a life is not very difficult by a family person (believer) as he would be severely tested. But if a believer dares to live such a life, God would give him revelations equal to the servants of God. Because most believers would not live such a sacrificial life, servants of God tell only they can get revelations from God as they had done huge sacrifice in their life.
A person who is living in sin and living a life without any sacrifice or less sacrifice, cannot understand the mysteries of God.
To read the revelations God had given me after I lived a victorious life and a life of faith and sacrifice, please visit my blog http://www.kstephendaniel.blogspot.in
I assume my comment will probably get lost among the hundreds of others on this post, but I found this an interesting read- i was just looking for an explanation of what TPM was, and you have done that well…(Albeit in a biased (and amusing) way)…some of the comments on here are funny, others just seem to echo previous replies and seems almost cult-ish…
HI brothers and Sisters, IS it true that happened in Irumbuliyur…
One training brother who was an electrician was asked by Pas. Manaseh to give a connection. But the brother knows that if the connection is given a fire may occur. So he hesitated to give the connection. But he was forced by Pas. Manaseh. Later the brother refused to do it. So the brother was taken to a room and was beaten by 4 brothers by pouring water on him (as done by police perrsonals).. Later the brother left the ministry last week.. Is it????? Wat is going on in TPM………………… Thevar Pentecostal Mission
First, I thank Ms.Rachel Chitra for creating such as an eye opener about this serious maniac wicked cult called TPM, my childhood was altered and wasted by this inhuman psychc. I recently converted to Judaism and understood how distorted truths these uneducated, illiterate pastors have taught the innocent Indian Christian Community. Hope I too will contribute in creating awareness of this serious disease to Humanity called TPM..May G-d help me to do so..Baruch Hashem
I do have a few things to say. I belong to the TPM denomination. While it’s true that some believers don’t go for medicines the vast majority take treatments and visit hospitals. It is not against the rules here. Yes wearing white at all times seems kinda crazy but if you remember Samuel the prophet’s mom used to spin clothes in white wool for his son, that’s the priestly dress. Plus, it does look good, syrian fathers wear white, so does Roman catholic fathers. It’s better not to use Jewellery at least we have eliminated a major form of dowry! What say?
Hello former Faith Home Kid. I read your article with great interest. I too am an ex FH kid. Please get in touch with me. samalan@inbox.com.
This cruelty must be stopped.
Sam Alan.
WORD OF LIVING GOD.
Let me first thantk Jesus Christ for shedding His innocent and precious blood to redeem me from the cluches of devil. Lord i seek thy protection om the devils wicked plans. Lord give me enough grace to understand the plans of the wicked and overcome victory.
Tpm does nt compel anyone not to take medicines or wear white clothes or not to watch TV or even wear ornaments.
If anyone is saved and lives a nominal christian life will also go to heaven (ie without indulging himself in sins of carnal mind ) Bur this person ll nt get transformed in the soon coming of Christ and not take part in the 1000 yrs millionum with Christ and his saints. This category of people with rise up before the final judgement and according to their deeds will recive a place in heaven called new heaven. Its like seeing a palace from outside.
People who live according to the word of God that includes people who overcome the world and its pleasures offered by the devil will occupy the place with Christ ie new jerusalem and zion. It includes faith trial diving healing trial and so on….it is only possible thru the grace of God.
They r referances for all this claims…dear readers read word with utter most importance.
Just imagine old testumont people lost thier crown for small reasons like Adam for one disobedience King Saul for disobedience But now is the grace period you are not punished immediatly. As Christ is our mediator He pardon us for misgivings. We are never perfect but Jesus desires to make us like Him. Just surrender to Him and seek Him from ur heart. He will surely make u worthy for new Jerusaleam.
I ve more to say…but it is better u seek His guidence from Our beloved and loving Jesus. Satan is always after children who are saved. Because the non belivers are already belongs for His kingdom..
Dear George
U said, By not using jewellery we have eliminated a major form of dowry.
we are very decent people we deal only in cash and that too in hefty amounts. See the lavish weddings U will know what I mean. Some time back there were some rules given about marriage like Video etc., Rules are flouted based on status of a person. Reality is far from the truth. TPM longer enjoys the status it had. Feel sad at our downfall. When is TPM going to wake up. No doubt TPM has some very good principles but today they more in theory. Good saints have left the world to be with LORD at young age probably unable to bear the present state of the church.
Am not a tpm believer. Was associated with this church for 5 years from 1980 to 1985. I left the church because I loved the world. I do not goto any church now. My view is that only the evil one,Lucifer,is the accuser. So,let us not be hasty with our mouth.
With love,
A sixty year old follower of Christ
I had commented on November 24th here saying that I had left the church 7th months back. Owing to pressure from family I had to go back to TPM for a while after that. Then 2 months back I finally found a church that I could call home. I have left TPM for good now. The new church is a breath of fresh air. To anyone who is still bound by TPM, My advise would be to read your bibles without any presuppositions. It will surprise you. No matter what this church claims to have (special revelations etc), they are nothing if it goes against the very word of God. Don’t compromise truth just because a church gives you a false sense of eliteness. Its just not worth it.
Good riddance btw good luck with your new church until you again find another church with breath of fresh air.
Dear all , instead of wasting time on commenting about this church , just go over and attend a service there so see the difference. SHOW ME ANOTHER CHURCH THAT LIVES BY FAITH LIKE THIS ONE, SHOW ME ANOTHER ONE THAT HAS THE COURAGE TO EMBRACE ALL TRUTHS LIKE CONSECRATION OF MINISTERS & DIVINE HEALING like we find here ???? We are all human who tend to make mistakes but that does not mean you blame the entire church for mistakes of individuals. The doctrines are the best preached without dilution, it may inconvenience those who seek to live at lower levels of spiritual life. Its OK there are several other churches there …. just go over. If you need to be the bride of Christ then there are a lot of sacrifices and consecrations to be made whether you like or not. Arguing or defaming a church is not the solution. Sincere seekers of truth will appreciate …..all others will talk criticize and complain. What is your hope in your life ??? — criticize others or REFORM YOUR OWN LIFE and prepare for JESUS’s COMING OR YOUR DEATH ??? TPM has no clutches all are free to go where ever so stop all this crazy stuff and each of you prepare your lives according to the revelation God gives and STOP SLANDERING !!!! BIBLE SAYS WORK OUT YOUR SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING.
WILL YOUR HANDS BE CLEAN WHEN YOU MEET THE ALMIGHTY BEFORE THE THRONE.??
What if against all your presumptions THIS CHURCH IS INDEED PREPARING TO BE THE BRIDE ??? WHO IS ANYONE TO JUDGE??? RAECHEL CHITRA YOU ARE THE ONE WHO STARTED THIS SLANDEROUS THREAD ……… BE CAREFUL DON’T LET THE ENEMY USE YOU – YOU ARE ACCOUNTABLE FOR ALL THE VICIOUS REMARKS ON YOUR BLOG AND one day you will have to answer GOD DON’T SAY YOU WERE NEVER WARNED!!!!!!!
iam going to A.G church they want only money,their god is belly,they does not come to visit,but ask money through phone,now iam not going to a.g church,in small meeting also they beg for money,gospel say freely received freely give.
now iam decided to go to T.P.M.the only best church i went before even it is small meeting or convention they wont ask money. GOD is not poor to ask money.now a days married pastors get thithe only to look after their family.
But T.P.M pastor leave their family for ministry sake.
*****All pastors come to ministry to earn money to become rich.
T.P.M pastor give their lands & riches to the ministry to serve GOD
Even though T.P.M is richest denomination having all over world it
is GODS blessing, All money go to T.P.Mchurch,not even single
pastors in T.P.M can use that money for their personel use & their family
T.P.M cars,buldings,is not belong to pastors it belong to the church.
All compliants T.P.M is wrong doctrine becoz they r unmarried
i can quote so many
unmarried in bible,jesus,paul,johnthebaptise,elijah,list goes like these
if any doubt reply me vijay.jc2000@gmail.com
Ecclesiatical Enslavement and exploitation.
Multitudes of sincere and trusting believers are caught in a virtually invisible web of religious captivation
in Charismatic and other Neo-Pentecostal Churches and don’t even know it!!!!!!!!
Recently on my visit to India I attended a Sunday morning service, of one of the prominent Pentecostal
Churches in India. The Pastor in his sermon, commanded the believers not to attend any other service but theirs. He also mentioned that they would like to know which church they attended, in case they did. It was a surprise to me.
Just a few minutes back, I opend my Philips translation of the Bible, and my eyes fell on Isaiah 10:1″ Shame on you who make unjust laws, and publish burdensome decrees, depriving the poor of justice, robbing the the weakest of my people of their rights.” Many burdens and laws have been heaped on
unsuspecting people who are led like sheep to the slaughter, all under the guise of holiness, and subimission to those in spiritual authority.
Judaism built a wall arround itself for two reasons:
1. To keep people out.
2. To keep people in.
The misuse of spiritual authority in a church setting is most of the time to keep people ignorant of the word of God, so that they would believe and follow their beliefs and doctrines of their particular interpretation, and thereby control people. Peter warned against this in 1 Peter 2-5.(Philips) Tend the flock of God whose shepherds you are, and do it not under compulsion, but of your own free will, as God would have it: not for gain but out of sheer devotion. not Tyrannizing over those who are allotted to your care, but setting an example to the flock!!!!!!!!
Holiness in any form or in any context cannot be legislated. It has to be the out working of Christ in you who is the hope of glory. Legalism, might sound and look good, but it breeds hate, dissention and spiritual death in the end. Each person has to grow to the extent he lets the Grace of God work in his life.
No one is justified by keeping the law.
Horrow stories of authoritarian abuse and exploitation and psychological enslavement in certified Christian Churches abound. Eccesiastical enslavement and exploitation is widespread in many churches. These groups are not radical fringe religious sects and cults, but well-respected church groups espousing orthdox Christian, beliefs, whose membership is comprised of a cross section of Americans, individuals and families, of every race, education level, and station of life.
The mechanisms of psychological manipulation, domination and control employed in these groups are virtually identical, to those employed by certified cults. Indeed the stark truth is that many of the groups and churches who employ these techniques, and mechanisms are themselves at the very minimum quashi-cults, and in some cases bona fide cults.
So what are the consequences and effects we are talking about here, a scant few disllusioned people with their feelings little hurt? Far from it!! We are talking about an immense number of broken and destroyed families, marriges, friendships, multitudes of sincre, trusting people are spiritually shipwrecked, potentially for life, and dont know it!! Added to these are a number of break downs, ( This happened to my mother, who was seperated from her young children and our father in her late twenties.)
health maladies, suicides, premature deaths due to related causes, and the like, just to name some of the consequences experienced by victims. Indeed the havoc and decimation wreaked upon victims are far too extreeme and frankly, morose to possibly able to relate here. but suffice it to say it is sweeping, mind boggling; and sadly in some cases barring the miraculous, irreversable!!!!!!!
Let us stand fast in the Liberty, whereby we have been set free. Let us not be bound by man made doctrines, and practices. Let us come under the Lordship of Jesus our blessed redeemer and Gracious Father, Jesus Christ, who gave his Life for our redemption and freedom. If the Son has set you free you are free indeed!! Let God be glorified in our lives, and our freedom.
Dear Rachel.
Why is my blog still awaiting moderation? Is there any problem with the content. Just wondering.
Sam Alan
Dear Moderator,
I am wondering why you would delete my blog ‘ ecclesiastical enslavement——– — etc.
Dear Vijay,
I have read your comments with great interest. Yes, many Pastors enter the ministry just for the money. I left CPM more than fifty years ago. We did not have much money those days. I was raised in the CPM church. My father joined Cpm when I was a baby. He left a lot of fame and fortune and joined CPM to go to Zion. He loved us his children, but never showed it outwardly, for fear being accused as not consecrated. He never questioned the physical and sexual abuse we had to endure, by the brothers sisters and Pastors. Yes, the Chief Pastor was flying around the world when we as children were starving. The chief Pastor had all the delicate food he wanted. In fact he had food before him all night!
TPM has a lot of money now. But does the poor worker on the lowest rung of the ladder, get fed clothed, and cared for like the chief and his cronies. They live it up. Guys who could never afford a bicycle are riding in A/C cars, and being served by young workers who are like their servants. They do not have all things common like in the book of Acts.
TPM should share the pie with the workers. Give money for their personal expenses. Why should only the top Pastors live off the top? You seemed to be upset about other churches asking for money. You should be mad at St Paul and the other Apostles asking for money. What is wrong in taking an offering. The Apostles always took an offering for their expenses, and also were given a salary. Read your Bible.
You should be more concerned about the demonic Doctrines of The late Pastor Alwin, who was kicked out of CPM for gross immorality. You should be concerned about the poor workers who are suffering, by the lack of medical intervention. Thousands have died prematurely. This includes many innocent and helpless children. I have seen some of them as they suffered and breathed their last.
In March, you will be holding your international convention, and hundreds of thousands will be there. The Lord will be more pleased if you will mobilize thousands to clean up the streets, look after the poor and dying, rescue the prostitutes, and innocent children from the sex industry. You do not need another sermon on holiness and Zion . Some of the sermons you can’t even understand, and you are made to think that they are ‘deep revelations.’
Here in the west, your Church is not growing at all. Your Churches are 90%
made up of Indians, Sri lankans and others from the East. White Americans are not gullible to swallow the TPM doctrines. They question and challenge, and keep away from TPM.
In the last few years you lost some very promising young Pastors, who refused to tow the line, but questioned your practices, and doctrines, and left TPM.
They are Vijayan Dharmaraj, Michael, and Sam Mills. The Lord is mightily using these men for his glory. They were all sincere men of God.
Let me remind you that those living in glass houses should not throw rocks at others!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By the way if you want to know who the real Pastor Alwin , just ask me.
I am the only one alive who knew him quite well behind the curtains.
He was a sex Maniac with a depraved mind. 1st TIM 4 1-3. The spirit says clearly that some men will abandon the faith in latter times and will obey lying spirits and follow the teachings of demons. These teachings come from the deceit of men who are liars, and whose conciseness are dead, as if burnt with a hot iron. Such men teach it is wrong to marry, when Paul says marriage is holy and the bed undefiled. God instituted marriage before the Church and TPM.
Well bro, so much for to day. Wake up, see the light, and smell the roses.
You may contact me if you want to samalan@inbox.com.
Sam.
Rachel, well said(written). Keep it up.
Hi,
My name is Raja from hindu family and married one pantacostal girl last five year little bit problem and now that problem come to divorce and saying only after the conversion the problem will solve not then has to full and final and see there own life now you say i have to do convert or what to da reply with your view
all Commenting abount TPM are Dubakkooor.. TPM/CPM/and any other fellowship will not take you to heaven.. leave this debate and follw Christ and th Seaints who were in Light…
Jesus can heal everybody. Thousands dies daily eventhough they taking medicines. Jesus is the perfect doctor. Believe him.
Lust of eyes and sinful thoughts lead to masturbation( TPM believers please google and find what is masturbation incase you may not know what is that!!
I know many TPM workers do masturbation..anyone to defend my opinion??
God is there,still he is same,Jesus …that’s it..all doctrines are shit..
Am a Born TPM human ,more than 10 years suffered by satanic possession but one day I got delivered by a married independent pastor’s prayer,that day i felt the electricity like power of Jesus throughout my body,..any one want to experience deliverance like me??
Hi Jacob,
You say, “May Lord open your eyes of understanding. Spend some more time reading and meditating on the word of God. Soon you will regret for this unwarranted post.
God Bless you”
First, I don’t believe in God and find your comment: “May Lord open your eyes of understanding” very patronising. Commenting on my blog on my capablities to understand is also plain rude.
Secondly, I don’t need your advise to “Spend some more time reading and meditating on the word of God,” as I did that for 20 years and found the Bible unjust, irrational and factually incorrect.
Thirdly, “Soon you will regret for this unwarranted post,” sounds like a threat. Is ur god going to do petty things like taking revenge on atheist bloggers for blogging? And also whether the post is “unwarrented” or not is a debatable issue.
And I don’t like the condescending tone, in which you & Premyz “God Bless me”
Why don’t we have a sensible debate? Are there are not such unfair practises being carried out in churches?
Can you only engage in name-calling? Can we not debate on the many things seriously wrong with the church?
Somebody mentioned about the youngsters who left the ministry, but conveniently avoided the saints who are standing firm 40+ years. Devil has his advocates everywhere and these men fell into the trap (cannot suppress the lust). The Lord will puke them away, but hope the ones who stand firm in trials will earn their glory. Naysayers abound as evident in these forums but I consider them another bunch of fools who cannot withstand the currents against them. Truly the world is losing the vision of the kingdom of God, but again that is already prophesized many places in the book. Whoever believeth in the son of God will see his Glory.
Hi Kumar Edward,
What’s wrong with TPM is the horde of false doctrines disguised as “deeper truths”. What TPM does is eisegesis, not exegesis. One CANNOT arrive at teachings like the following if one honestly reads scripture and holds scripture as the highest authority.
1. Those who take medicine will not be seen at the rapture.
2. Those saved will be not be rapture.
3. Those who take medicine are not allowed to take communion.
4. Those who wear jewelry will not be seen at his coming
5. Those who wear jewelry will not be given water baptism or holy communion.
6. Only those who speak in tongues are truly saved.
7. TPM treats those who don’t speak in tongues as second class citizens.
8. Ministers are supposed to be unmarried.
9. Sinless perfectionism.
10. Every major decision in our lives must be taken after asking permission from ministers
11. Doctrine of Zion.
12. Treating other Christians as “nominal Christians”.
13. Leaving a denomination is classified as “backsliding”
14. One Pastor in Bangalore taught that Daniel was SINLESS (Can you believe it?!”
15. Another Pastor taught against helping the poor. He taught that the “poor” in NT meant TPM ministers.
16. Fellowship with other Christians are discouraged.
I can go on and on. This barely scratches the surface. If you’d like to respond to me you can mail me at petrified197@gmail.com
I had a discussion with a non TPM person and he actually proved to me that the terminology of Chief Pastor (Chief Shepherd) is blasphemous to be used by any human being…
Just like the title of Lord of Lords, King of Kings, The Word of God…Jesus has many other titles…one of that is *Chief Shepherd* in 1 Peter 5:4. This is a divine title to be used ONLY by Jesus….
I am convinced that using this divine title for any man is blasphemous…I know many TPMers will have hard time accepting it…but truth does not have any bias.
“But you—come here, you children of a sorceress,
you offspring of adulterers and prostitutes!
4 Who are you mocking?
At whom do you sneer
and stick out your tongue?
Are you not a brood of rebels,
the offspring of liars?
5 You burn with lust among the oaks
and under every spreading tree;
you sacrifice your children in the ravines
and under the overhanging crags.
6 The idols among the smooth stones of the ravines are your portion;
indeed, they are your lot.
Yes, to them you have poured out drink offerings
and offered grain offerings.
In view of all this, should I relent?
7 You have made your bed on a high and lofty hill;
there you went up to offer your sacrifices.
8 Behind your doors and your doorposts
you have put your pagan symbols.
Forsaking me, you uncovered your bed,
you climbed into it and opened it wide;
you made a pact with those whose beds you love,
and you looked with lust on their naked bodies.
9 You went to Molek[a] with olive oil
and increased your perfumes.
You sent your ambassadors[b] far away;
you descended to the very realm of the dead!
10 You wearied yourself by such going about,
but you would not say, ‘It is hopeless.’
You found renewal of your strength,
and so you did not faint.
11 “Whom have you so dreaded and feared
that you have not been true to me,
and have neither remembered me
nor taken this to heart?
Is it not because I have long been silent
that you do not fear me?”
Isaiah 57
Nothing more to say. But when God stops being silent, the day of wrath will be intolerable. Repent before it is too late.
13 When you cry out for help,
let your collection of idols save you!
The wind will carry all of them off,
a mere breath will blow them away.
But whoever takes refuge in me
will inherit the land
and possess my holy mountain.” , Also from Isaiah 57
But don’t take it in a bad way.
hello y u complaining about T.P.M church first u pick abstacle from ur eye then try to remove abstacle from others eye. God does not saved us to complain other doctrine or church.jesus saved us to share his love and gospel.i seen many peoples in this site particulary racheal chitra fighting with the doctrine of tpm.in Bible in new testament peoples separated themselves and said they belong to appolo,i belong to paul ,i belong to this and that.like wise in this last day peoples fight between dinominations.i says to u,u people r not looking jesus u r looking people. if u look jesus u will be like him and be caught up in the coming of jesus. see annai thersa showed his love towards orpanage and poor. still worldly people admit her and her service.who can serve and shows love towards poor like annai therasa.u people know to fight for useless things.so if u love each other then God will be with us.if any people like to share any thing plz call me at 7092746404 or mail me vijay.jc2000@gmail.com. u people can ask me which church i belongs to.i belongs to jesus only and jesus belongs to GOD. if u fighting for silly things it will not glorify God. our thoughts,words and action must glorify jesus.
Praise the lord.
Dear friends, TPM is dangerous. It needs to be reformed. I was born and brought up there. I am 42 years old now. I left the church when i was 21. It was a very wise move. Most doctrines in that church are unbiblical. Please go through this website: http://www.salvationbygrace.org
Brothers and sisters..
AM asking some question
why the christains worship in sunday ??
is it god commandment ???
god commandment is to observe sabath …
Who behind this sunday worship…??
SUN ,, DAY….PAGANISIM…. PAGAN GOD SUN…..
Also there is a gap theory in gensis 1; 1 to 2….
how the earth become chaos ??
god again recreate it…
here is quarrel regarding the churches..
lol…
jesus didnt create religion..
he told to spread msgs.. god ‘s love..
man created denomination…..
try to learn god commandents in bible, not in churches..
obeying the commandents of god is important..
may god help us
let us pray ,
first. pls open my eyes, then pray to open others eyes
may god help us
There are many people in TPM who think that their saints are better Jesus. Recently I was talking with an ardent pastor worshiper TPM , I asked him you all claim that old testaments people and prophets won’t go to heaven, they will be in new earth. I quoted Luke 13:28, “There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Issac, and Jacob, all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.”
He asked me When new testament church is formed. On the 50th day after the resurrection of Jesus.Then what is the relevance of the preaching of Jesus. What a bizarre argument to defend the so called saints and teachings of TPM.
May God open the eyes of the innocent church worshiping (Pharisees) pastor worshiping (idol worshiping) believers of TPM
For more information please visit ”fromtpm.com”
The doctrine founded by pastor Alwin is a superb one. When Theodore Herzel established the earthly Zionism and got Israel in 1948, Our pastor rightly said that Mussolini is the anti Christ who wanted to establish the united christian Europe. But alas! the sexual escapade alone is his black mark upon his character.
Unless one is circumcised at heart and become a spiritual Jew one cannot enter into the kingdom of jesus. So when the jews advocated the physical Zion pastor Alwin went for spiritual Zion. So his doctrine is correct even though his personal problems might have followed him.Who knows whether he had repented or not?
Hallo Rachel,
Don’t ask anybody or read any books. Ask directly to LORD JESUS CHRIST, as Sadhu Sundar Singh did. And LORD revealed himself to Sundar Singh. Same way you also ask all your doubts to HIM alone, and not to humans. Surely HE will reveal HIMSELF to you. May LORD bless you and be lost in HIS agape Love.
Sincerely,
Jibu
rachel you are right i love you lot dear such a person only im searching in my life i love you dear you are my exact life parner dear
Hi Kumar,
Please visit reasons.org or rzim.org to get some answers. Jesus Christ claimed to be God and said He will die and rise up on the third day and fulfilled that promise. Just because a person do not believe the truth will not make the truth untrue. Through creation God has given a sign to all humans and no one is without an excuse (Romans 1:18 – 32). God has also set eternity in the hearts of all humans (Ecclesiastes 3:11) so they have no excuse. So why do many do not find the one true God? Because humans love darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil (It’s written in John 3:19). The love of the one true God has paid for all the sins of all humans on the cross. All we have to do is by faith receive it and live the rest of our life for His glory to the best of our ability. Best Wishes! Blessings!!
Reblogged this on christre1992 and commented:
THANKYOU UR INFO WAS HELPFUL FOR MY RESEARCH
https://www.fromtpm.com/
Dear RachelChitra Sister.. I can understand you are concerned about just women’s equality like every woman that provokes anger on TPM. First you need to understand a woman shouldn’t think she must be doing everything a man does. God created man for doing some works that women can’t do and viceversa.
It’s the deception of Satan on modern women to put them into such thoughts and hate God. Please come out of it.
All you mentioned as bad in TPM are just the New Testament teachings. God gave His words to us as only His truth. That’s what the TPM is built on.
Please just do some research on New testament on all things you mentioned as rubbish. You will get some idea. If you research as an unbeliever of God, you can never find the truth. God doesn’t like unbelief.
all Commenting abount TPM are wasting your precious times.. TPM/CPM/and any other fellowship will not take you to heaven.. leave this debate and follw Christ and th Seaints who were in Light…